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inevitable [ In reply to ]
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If you have 2000 people in a race with a mass start, there will be rampant drafting. If you have that many people in a race with poorly stacked waves, same thing. The participants' fault to some extend, but also the organizers'.

I have only once seen an Ironman where draft rules were enforced properly, and I presume I am not the only one to notice this. Yet people sign up in record numbers, so obviously we don't care. or at least not enough, to warrant a change.

An RD has told me flat-out that he doesn't want the marshalls to call penalties, because "people don't pay an entry fee to get DQ'd". And you know what, from is narrow money-maximizing point of view he is doing the logical thing. And the only way it will change is if people start staying away from races that promote drafting. I am not very hopeful.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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The question I have is - what is the rule with regard to motor vehicles? The reason I ask this is because at Folsom International this past weekend I noticed the elite male that won the event "drafting" off the moped that was marking his position on the course. I was heading on the "out" portion of the bike when I saw this and it was very clear - he was only about 3 feet behind. Now, I don't want to damn him at all because this was just a "snapshot" (saw him for like 2 seconds maybe) but what is the rule in this case? This guy was motoring and it was a gentle downgrade and I'm not even sure the moped was fast enough to stay ahead of him. The person on the moped was obviously affiliated with the race and yet there was no drafting infraction in the final standings. Is there a double standard from elites to AG'rs? Or does the RD/official take full responsibility for not driving fast enough to clear the path? Oh yeah. The guy only won by 20 seconds or so.

I'm sure if I was the cyclist I'd be screaming at the moped to get the h311 out of the way but I'd be reluctant to slow down because the bonehead in front of me isn't holding up his end of the bargain. What should an athlete do (not that I'll EVER find myself in that position hehe)?

OT
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [OT in CA] [ In reply to ]
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Rule 5.10(b) Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle. The longer sides of the zone begin at the leading edge of the front wheel and run backward parallel to the bicycle; the front wheel divides the short side of the zone into two equal parts. With respect to a moving motor vehicle, the "drafting zone" is a rectangular area extending 15 meters to each side of the vehicle and 30 meters behind the vehicle

so if he was as close as you say he was for more than 15 seconds it is a foul

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"on your Left"
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Re: Give the people what they want [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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I have no strong opinion either way as to whether or not drafting during swim should be legal. But I do know this, the current rules say that drafting on the swim IS legal while drafting on the bike is NOT. Maybe this is inconsistent, maybe it's practical. All I want is for people to follow the rules of the sport in which they are participating. If someone feels there is a problem with the rules, then I fully support their right to petition to have them changed. I do not however support the idea that participants can disregard those rules they feel are inconvienient to them. (I'm ignoring the cases where I feel it is legitimate to break a rule to avoid an accident or otherwise dangerous situation.)

If someone were berated for drafting during the swim, then I'd have a huge problem with the guy doing the berating. In my mind that's just smart, LEGAL racing. I fully support berating and calling out those who draft on the bike because they are cheaters. (I'm not talking about crowded courses here, but about the dicks who ride in a tight paceline often alternating pulls and using hand signals.)

Just to reiterate, I am FOR draft-legal racing. I just don't want drafting in draft-free races. It's kinda like how I'd get pissed in a soccer game if someone other then the keeper used his hands. It's a radical position, I know, but it's the one I take! ;)
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Re: inevitable [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard and I had the same thoughts after IMFL last year. My take is not the mass start but the mass exodus from the swim. In IMLP, with 1800+ starter, 1086 came out of the swim between 1:00 and 1:15. With 7 meters between them, that's a string of bicycles 5 miles long. Is this possible, yes, probable, no.
Can officials stop it, no. To a lot of these people it is just a game. If you look in their cars, you'll probably find a radar detector. If this were golf, I wouldn't play with the individuals but in this sport, the only way you can take care of it is to ostracise those individuals who do this in your local clubs.

Bob Sigerson
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Re: Give the people what they want [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Nicely put and very direct! I guess my heartburn is that I don't like the rules. Seems unfair to allow something in one event and not the other (and not enforceable in either). I guess I would ask that we no longer call triathlon an individual sport since we allow (and promote) assistance on the swim.
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [TriPA] [ In reply to ]
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"Triathletes are mostly somewhat highly educated, professional type people...This would indicate a pretty high level of smarts..."

This may be true (I hope), but I think it can manifest itself in different ways. You can be smart enough to know what the rules are and how to follow them, or smart enough to know when and how you can get away with breaking them.

I don't think it's a question of intelligence.


***
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [TriPA] [ In reply to ]
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Although I don't like drafting, it is not really having any effect on race results. In my experience there just isn't that much drafting going on among the top racers. In some large national level races with more really good athletes this may be somewhat more plausible, but I also think that most top athletes are fairly conscious and try to avoid drafting. I would be really interested in an example of someone being overtaken by a drafting pack. In my experience I have always been the one overtaking the drafters (no never a whole pack), so although I find it annoying I realize that all their drafting hasn't really gotten them anywhere.

As much as some people might think it is silly for top AG to be upset on lack of AG win, ahh! I only finished second, it is even sillier for the 25th placed person to be annoyed because they missed 24th place due to a drafter. Since they are just out there to have a good time, they shouldn't let something they have no control over like that, bother them.



As for draft legal AG races, try getting 500 triathletes to take off their aerobars. Also what about the guys in wave six, who can't get up the road, because the peloton from the remnants of wave 1, 2, 3, and 4 is blocking the entire lane.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [BLACKSHEEP] [ In reply to ]
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Most race organizers post the race number of the offender, but not their name. Perhaps it is time for the names to be posted as well?

Also, who is checking for multiple infractions during the year? If racer X has gotten an infraction for 10 straight races should he/she be allowed to race without incurring any additional penalty? You know, a points system, like most states have for driver's licenses. Or, maybe they should be required to ride the bike leg with 30 psi, and run with a 50 pound field marching pack? Sounds reasonable to me....

On the other hand-we have at least two hands you know-the races are sooooooo crowded. Some sprint races are just impossible to ride legally. My last sprint race I kept trying to avoid people, but we were just packed onto the course like sardines. Over 80 races and no infraction yet, but that record is doomed if I keep doing sprint races.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [eric] [ In reply to ]
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"the head ref has to review each one"

Maybe this methodology needs revision. It's great to review the penalties to ensure they're being handed out fairly, but when that gets in the way of enforcing a fair race, then it's obvious that a less careful (less reviewed) system will in fact result in a more fair placement of penalties!

Here's a suggestion I'd like to float: give the enforcers on the course the power to make the decisions on the individual situations. What if you have an overly-zealous ref? Have them wear numbers. Permit complaints against the number to the head ref from *anyone* who observes him penalizing unfairly. Too many valid complaints, and *all* his penalties no longer count. That should keep him honest. Then the head ref only has to judge his referees, instead of every little complaint. Perhaps not trivial, though in the worst case it could be done by merely counting the number of complaints against a ref, compared to complaints against the others.
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [Matt_Mallet] [ In reply to ]
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Matt,

come to Florida and do some racing and you'll change your tune. since we have a lot of crowded sprint races, drafting is a given. many, many top AGers have lost spots because someone else cheated their way over them. and many AGers seem to think "if i don't get caught, it ain't cheating." i'm not talking about 'legal position' 7-meter follow-the-leader, we're talking wheelsucking pure and true.

i've lost more than one spot on more than one occasion to athletes who bunched up on the bike and benefited from sharing the workload. i'm one of the guys shooting for the overall, by the way. my only course of action has been to train the swim and bike (and run) very hard, and adopt a very nonchalant attitude towards racing. otherwise i'd be kind of frustrated. on the occasions that my swim has been less than stellar, i've been caught by or in the pack and it's not a place i want to be.

drafting in draft-illegal racing SUCKS the life from this sport.

i've got no problem with ITU racing.

Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [martyg] [ In reply to ]
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Liars and cheaters. They are the same in my book. I'll be sure to remember eric's advice about spitting the sports drink behind me to get them off of my tail. If you want draft-legal, race in those races, they are great if you like that. As for drafting in the swim...you stronger swimmers ARE being penalized some, and that doesn't seem fair to me. I don't know how to get around that problem for you fish...spitting sports drink won't work in the swim....However, purposefully kicking someone that is in a legal position is not excuseable in any case.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Its everyones fault...

you see when the other guy is cheating, you need to cheat to have a chance...

But the real question is... Why is the other guy cheating... The answer is... Because he can get away with it... Which means??? The people running the race, are dropping the ball... If some guy drafts... then BAM!!! he gets hit with a 30 second penalty... Guess what... He aint doing that again... But if the officials don't penalize him/her... then they will keep doing it... It is still the cheaters fault... really... But the men/woman running the race need to take equal responsibility...
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [TriPA] [ In reply to ]
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Apologies to Poe [Long Post] -Marc

TRUE! nervous, very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why WILL you say that I am mad? The disease had sharpened my senses, not destroyed, not dulled them. Above all was the sense of hearing acute. I heard all things in the heaven and in the earth. I heard many things in hell. How then am I mad? Hearken! and observe how healthily, how calmly, I can tell you the whole story.

It is impossible to say how first the idea entered my brain, but, once conceived, it haunted me day and night. Object there was none. Passion there was none. I loved the old man. He had never wronged me. He had never given me insult. For his gold I had no desire. I think it was his eye! Yes, it was this! One of his eyes resembled that of a vulture -- a pale blue eye with a film over it. Whenever it fell upon me my blood ran cold, and so by degrees, very gradually, I made up my mind to take the qualifier spot of the old man, and thus rid myself of the eye for ever.

Now this is the point. You fancy me mad. Madmen know nothing. But you should have seen me. You should have seen how wisely I proceeded -- with what caution -- with what foresight, with what dissimulation, I went to work! I was never kinder to the old man than during the pre race warmup session. As we stretched and jogged I extended a veil of friendship oh, so gently! And then, when I had gained his confidence, I marked his wetsuit and slid into his slipstream, relaxing in the turbulent waters moved by his efficient technique. Oh, you would have laughed to see how cunningly I thrust it in! I moved it slowly, very, very slowly, so that I might not disturb the old man's pace. It took me an hour to complete the swim and follow his pace as he ran into his transition area. Ha! would a madman have been so wise as this? And then when we passed out of T1 I slid into his draft cautiously -- oh, so cautiously -- cautiously (for my spokes creaked), I drafted just so much that a single thin ray fell upon the vulture eye. And this I did for five long hours, every time the judges passed, but I found the eye always closed, and so it was impossible to do the work, for it was not the old man who vexed me but his Evil Eye. And every water stop, when the pace broke, I went boldly into the chamber and spoke courageously to him, calling him by name in a hearty tone, and inquiring how he had passed the miles. So you see he would have been a very profound old man, indeed , to suspect that every mile, just out of sight, I drafted upon him while he powered on.

Upon the eightieth mile I was more than usually cautious in catching his pace. A watch's minute hand moves more quickly than did mine. Never before that race had I felt the extent of my own powers, of my sagacity. I could scarcely contain my feelings of triumph. To think that there I was saving my strength little by little, and he not even to dream of my secret deeds or thoughts. I fairly chuckled at the idea, and perhaps he heard me, for he moved on the bike suddenly as if startled. Now you may think that I drew back -- but no. His wheel was as black as pitch with the thick darkness (for the Zipp carbon fiber emote an awesome shadow for fear of professionals), and so I knew that he could not see the drafting of his wheel, and I kept pushing it on steadily, steadily.

I had my head in, and was about to open the hammer, when my thumb slipped upon the gear shifter, and the old man sprang up in the bike, crying out, "Who's there?"

I kept quite still and said nothing. For a whole hour I did not move a muscle, and in the meantime I did not see him slow down. He was still sitting up in the bike, listening; just as I have done mile after mile hearkening to the death watches in the wall.

Presently, I heard a slight groan, and I knew it was the groan of mortal terror. It was not a groan of pain or of grief -- oh, no! It was the low stifled sound that arises from the bottom of the soul when overcharged with awe. I knew the sound well. Many a night, just at midnight, when all the world slept, it has welled up from my own bosom, deepening, with its dreadful echo, the terrors that distracted me. I say I knew it well. I knew what the old man felt, and pitied him although I chuckled at heart. I knew that he had been lying alert ever since the first slight noise when he had turned in the bike. His fears had been ever since growing upon him. He had been trying to fancy them causeless, but could not. He had been saying to himself, "It is nothing but the wind in the chimney, it is only a mouse crossing the floor," or, "It is merely a cricket which has made a single chirp." Yes he has been trying to comfort himself with these suppositions; but he had found all in vain. ALL IN VAIN, because Draft in approaching him had stalked with his black shadow before him and enveloped the victim. And it was the mournful influence of the unperceived shadow that caused him to feel, although he neither saw nor heard, to feel the presence of my head within the room.

When I had waited a long time very patiently without seeing him slow down, I resolved to open a little -- a very, very little crevice in the drafting zone. So I opened it -- you cannot imagine how stealthily, stealthily -- until at length a single dim ray like the thread of the spider shot out from the crevice and fell upon the vulture eye.

It was open, wide, wide open, and I grew furious as I gazed upon it. I saw it with perfect distinctness -- all a dull blue with a hideous veil over it that chilled the very marrow in my bones, but I could see nothing else of the old man's face or person, for I had directed the ray as if by instinct precisely upon the damned spot.

And now have I not told you that what you mistake for madness is but over-acuteness of the senses? now, I say, there came to my ears a low, dull, quick sound, such as a watch makes when enveloped in cotton. I knew that sound well too. It was the beating of the old man's heart. It increased my fury as the beating of a drum stimulates the soldier into courage.

But even yet I refrained and kept still. I scarcely breathed. I held my pace motionless. I tried how steadily I could maintain the ray upon the eye. Meantime the hellish tattoo of the heart increased. It grew quicker and quicker, and louder and louder, every instant. The old man's terror must have been extreme! It grew louder, I say, louder every moment! -- do you mark me well? I have told you that I am nervous: so I am. And now at the dead hour of the race, amid the dreadful silence of King Kameamea, so strange a noise as this excited me to uncontrollable terror. Yet, for some minutes longer I refrained and stood still. But the beating grew louder, louder! I thought the heart must burst. And now a new anxiety seized me -- the sound would be heard by a neighbour! The old man's hour had come! With a loud yell in T2, I threw open the hammer and sprung past him. He shrieked once -- once only. In an instant I left him on the road, and pulled the heavy bed over him. I then smiled gaily, to find the deed so far done. But for many minutes the heart beat on with a muffled sound. This, however, did not vex me; it would not be heard through the wall. At length it ceased. The old man was defeated. At the end of the race I examined the Qualifing slip. Yes, he was stone, stone beaten. I placed my hand upon the heart and held it there many minutes. There was no pulsation. He was stone beaten. His eye would trouble me no more.

If still you think me mad, you will think so no longer when I describe the wise precautions I took for the concealment of the Ironman entry. The night waned, and I worked hastily, but in silence.

I took up three planks from the flooring of the minivan, and deposited all between the scantlings. I then replaced the boards so cleverly so cunningly, that no human eye -- not even his -- could have detected anything wrong. There was nothing to wash out -- no video of any kind -- no sightings whatever. I had been too wary for that.

When I had made an end of these labours, it was four o'clock -- still dark as midnight. As the bell sounded the hour, there came a knocking at the street door. I went down to open it with a light heart, -- for what had I now to fear? There entered three men, who introduced themselves, with perfect suavity, as race officials. A shriek had been heard by a competitor during the race; suspicion of foul play had been aroused; information had been lodged at the race director’s table, and they (the officers) had been deputed to search the premises.

I smiled, -- for what had I to fear? I bade the gentlemen welcome. The shriek, I said, was my own in a dream. The old man, I mentioned, had skipped the ceremony and was driving home. I took my visitors all over the van. I bade them search -- search well. I led them, at length, to the bike rack. I showed them the treasures, secure, undisturbed. In the enthusiasm of my confidence, I brought folding chairs into the parking lot, and desired them here to rest from their fatigues, while I myself, in the wild audacity of my perfect triumph, placed my own seat upon the very spot beneath which reposed the tarnished medal.

The officers were satisfied. My MANNER had convinced them. I was singularly at ease. They sat and while I answered cheerily, they chatted of familiar things. But, ere long, I felt myself getting pale and wished them gone. My head ached, and I fancied a ringing in my ears; but still they sat, and still chatted. The ringing became more distinct : I talked more freely to get rid of the feeling: but it continued and gained definitiveness -- until, at length, I found that the noise was NOT within my ears.

No doubt I now grew VERY pale; but I talked more fluently, and with a heightened voice. Yet the sound increased -- and what could I do? It was A LOW, DULL, QUICK SOUND -- MUCH SUCH A SOUND AS A WATCH MAKES WHEN ENVELOPED IN COTTON. I gasped for breath, and yet the officials heard it not. I talked more quickly, more vehemently but the noise steadily increased. I arose and argued about trifles, in a high key and with violent gesticulations; but the noise steadily increased. Why WOULD they not be gone? I paced the floor to and fro with heavy strides, as if excited to fury by the observations of the men, but the noise steadily increased. O God! what COULD I do? I foamed -- I raved -- I swore! I swung the chair upon which I had been sitting, and grated it upon the boards, but the noise arose over all and continually increased. It grew louder -- louder -- louder! And still the men chatted pleasantly , and smiled. Was it possible they heard not? Almighty God! -- no, no? They heard! -- they suspected! -- they KNEW! -- they were making a mockery of my horror! -- this I thought, and this I think. But anything was better than this agony! Anything was more tolerable than this derision! I could bear those hypocritical smiles no longer! I felt that I must scream or die! -- and now -- again -- hark! louder! louder! louder! LOUDER! --

"Villains!" I shrieked, "dissemble no more! I admit the draft! -- tear up the planks! -- here, here! -- it is the beating of his hideous heart!"


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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [Matt_Mallet] [ In reply to ]
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"Although I don't like drafting, it is not really having any effect on race results. In my experience there just isn't that much drafting going on among the top racers. "

With all due respect, cheating, whether among top contenders or back of the packers, is cheating. I've read several posts in this forum with people essentially stating that it shouldn't matter if it doesn't change the overall winners or AG winners. I say, BS! On a good day, I finish in the top 25% of my AG, and I am improving. If a scumbag drafter gains 30 seconds on me, and therefore finishes in front of me rather than behind, that is not acceptable. Otherwise, the rules on drafting would state that they only apply to the top competitors! Ridiculous! The fact that the rules DO apply to all competitors, regardless of their competetiveness, indicates that drafters at any level are UNWELCOME in triathlon. Your nonchalant attitude doesn't help.
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Knock, Knock, upon thy door [ In reply to ]
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Marck. My goodness, man! At first I was glad to see that someone is sicker than me, but then, I began to feel my soul flicker and chill with dread. You are, indeed, mad. What a work of...of...well, whatever it is, it's a real piece of work! I'll never look at drafters quite the same now.

Oh, no doubt I always despised them, now, it's as if they are out to get me, as if someone has loosed the Hounds from Hell to chase me down, not to bowl me over and tear me apart but quickly. No, instead they kill by only nipping at my achilles. Slowly, mile by mile, they bleed me dry.

Seriously. I'm forever changed by your post.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: Knock, Knock, upon thy door [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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To be fair, I can't claim full credit for that story and the madness behind it--- The story is Edgal Allen Poe's "Telltale Heart" with an hour or two worth of edits. I had fun editing it and I think I'll further refine it and put it up on my web site.

The message I got from that story is that the crimes we commit affect us in unexpected and uncontrollable ways. The racers who cheat are tarnished by it and miss out on the true benefits of triathlon competition.

-Marc
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [MarcK] [ In reply to ]
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While your modified version of the telltale heart(yes?) is most excellent, I think it misses on one small point: It is guilt for what he has done wrong that ultimately betrays him, such that he will not allow himself to go unpunished for his crime. However, I think that drafters fit into three categories:

1. Cheating scumbags - they have no guilt, as an ill gotten gain is still a gain

2. Cheating idiots who don't bother familiarizing themselves with the rules, and have no guilt because of their ignorance; and

3. All the rest of us, who are trying to race our own race, but due to congestion on the course will end up clumped together and may occasionally enter each other's draft zone, if unintentionally. And we feel guilt even if we did not gain any time, simply because there might be the appearance that we were cheating.

When no one else is looking, it is only our own conscience that dictates our behavior. It is at these times that the true measure of a (hu)man can be taken.

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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [Matt_Mallet] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"As for draft legal AG races, try getting 500 triathletes to take off their aerobars."
Interesting comment! How much difference would it make to have aero bikes/aero equipment if you were racing in a draft legal competition? Would there be less demand for aero products if more races were draft legal?
Last edited by: TJ56: Aug 12, 03 9:00
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Most race organizers post the race number of the offender, but not their name. Perhaps it is time for the names to be posted as well?




Makes a lot of sense to me -- "name and shame", the Brits call it.

In bike racing where I live (NJ), this is actually standard practice.

Each month, a detailed list of all racing infractions (and those who've committed them) is sent out by e-mail to the entire racing community -- just like the "police blotter" in a small town paper.

They're posted on the Web as well -- see: http://www.bike411.com/warnings.html

Similarly, all posted race results list these infractions, penalties and DQ's by racer's name, not his/her anonymous race number.

If you'd planned on being a repeat offender, the fact that all ~2,000 licensed racers in the state get an e-mail indicating you're a blatant cheater may well have some effect.
Last edited by: alpdhuez: Aug 12, 03 7:46
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Re: Give the people what they want [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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I believe the decision to allow drafting on the swim is due to several circumstances: Mainly the mass start, but also while difficult to enforce drafting on the bike at times, can you imagine guys in canoes trying to enforce it on the swim?

I also believe that drafting in the swim is more of an art, and a difficult one at that, whereas even the most uncoordinated Joe can effectively (and dangerously I might add) draft on the bike. I'm not trying to discount the affect of drafting on the swim, but it's no where near the advantage you gain on the bike. e.g. Someone who swims 1:25 / 100yds is not going to be able to draft someone swimming 1:10, or even 1:15 for that matter, it just isn't going to happen. You can only draft someone who is swimming slightly faster, I'm thinking in the ballpark of 2-4 seconds per 100 yds. On the other hand, if Steve Larsen whips by me going 27 mph, and I'm going 23, I could put in a surge, get on his wheel and ride it all day if he kept his speed constant and didn't try and shake me.

my 2 cents


"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"
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Re: Give the people what they want [Mark C] [ In reply to ]
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You bring up another very good point: safety. It isn't unsafe to draft in the swim compared to drafting on the bike. It's even legal to draft on the run...again, it's safer than drafting on the bike.

Still, by far the greatest advantage is drafting on the bike, and I'll comment on it anytime I find someone doing it.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [TriPA] [ In reply to ]
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I think what is most disappointing is that Triathlon has such a good reputation for being a "friendly" sport. People help eachother in get started in the sport, kids can come out, people of all ages and body types without too much snobbery. However, once you're out on the course, regard for fellow racers disappears for many racers. I was in a race a couple weeks ago and was passed by a guy moving really well, calling "On your left" repeatedly. Two mintues later, I was stuck trying to pass someone else because the first guy was sitting on the left, hands up off the handlebars messing with his goo and a water bottle.

By the way, in response to one of the earlier replies, I don't remember which, if going up a steep hill gets rid of drafting advantage, why does Lance use his team to pull him up the Alps? Is that for pacing and psychological reasons?
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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think Lance uses them to pull him up the hills because they ARE going fast enough to take advantage. Lance averaged 26+ MPH for the entire tour. If we assume that he was going twice that on the fast downhills and half that on the steep uphills, he was probably in position to take advantage of the draft at any point in the race.

Obviously, I'm making assumptions, but when I go on a 50 mile ride and average 19 MPH, some of that time is at 40 MPH and some of it is at 11, so I am assuming that the Tour riders aren't crawling along at 40 rpm on their small chainring. I think the general belief is that ~15 MPH is where drafting becomes an advantage, and on a steep climb, you are going slower in your triathlon race than the Tour riders, so no advantage is gained.

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Re: Drafting and Cheating Rant!!! [cholla] [ In reply to ]
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At IMCDA there were three women in their forties who(for whatever reason)decided to train and do their IM together. (I had talked to them at the finish)They made a pact to help each other and stick together during the day.They rode the bike togeher,NOT in a manner of pulling,but stuck together and consequently broke the rules. They were completley oblivious that anyone would be upset at them(They finished just under 15hrs)They were appalled that some called them "cheating bitches"ect.....My point is this...There are so many people out on some of these races its just impossible to judge everyone. I think we all know of the flagrent A--hole out there for his ego.Becouse of the popularity there is much ignorance (myself included) I do know that if I followed the letter of the rule and not the spirit that for the first 10 miles of IMCDA I would of had to not pedal,just coast for a half hour.Just to many people out there.We were bombing downhill five wide. I wish that somehow Tri"s were a haven from the dishonesty but alas!Agian as posted earlier...At $400 a pop wpould it be good for the sport if the three women above were DQ?
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