What would be good for the sport is if they knew the rules.

Why do you think they should get a pass on having to know and comply with the rules just because they're women in their forties who trained together and finished around 15 hours?

I think this highlights an interesting point. Since there are lots of different kinds of people out there, and not all of them are trying to be competitive, why don't we put those "I just want to finish" people in a separate category, and they can draft all they want. Kind of like pass/fail, they either finish or they don't, with no rankings. Position fouls and other infractions would still be valid, for example, if you were blocking a competitive racer.

These people would also start behind everyone else by some reasonable margin, instead of with their age group, that way they don't interfere with competitors. This is what I have seen some sprint races do with the novices. I know that makes for a longer day for the officials, since you're starting the slowest people last, but such is life.

One final point: Given the availability of the rules, the fact that most IM Racer Handbooks contain Swim, bike, and run rules, and so on, I find it amazing that so many people are oblivious. Yet clearly they are. But I am still most annoyed by the blockers, who as an earlier poster mentioned, always seem to be three or more guys wearing the same jersey riding abreast on a fast downhill. These are the ones who should be clubbed(or de-clubbed, as the case may be), because they know the rules and are intentionally violating them.

Ooh! I just had a brilliant idea! How's this: If your tri-club amasses a certain number of penalties over the course of the season, everyone in the club is excluded from all USAT races for the remainder of the season. You can base it on the number of club members, or on a fixed number of penalties, but I bet that would straighten some people out. (I think Hammurabi would be proud of me for that one!)

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Also, TJ, its nary impossible to enforce no drafting during a swim. You can't do it honestly and evenly for one - boats getting too close to moving swimmers for one, hard to see race numbers, even on swim caps, of swimmers in a pack. Should you try to tell a swimmer he's drafting from a boat, he/she will pop his/her head up, look around, and the swimmers behind will slam into him, and it gets dangerous in stuff you can drown in.

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Elivis needs boats.

I agree 100% it is not enforceable and I am not in favor of changing that rule. From reading all these posts it would seem that most people agree that the "no drafting" rule on the bike cannot be fairly enforced. I personally just don't like the fact that swimming is the least important event in this sport and that wetsuits and drafting are used to allow more people to participate/compete.

I would like to know other people's opinion on how draft legal races would affect bike setup. Seems to me that it would lessen the need for aero equipment and would increase the need for skills to ride in pack. Would this be good or bad? Seems to me that it would be good for the rider because he/she would need to learn the necessary skills to stay upright, seems bad for aero manufacturers as it would reduce demand for aero bars, wheels, etc..

That they should know the rules. You are absolutly right. That they should get a pass? As I said they did not think they were racing. They were out there for completely different reasons.The challenge to them was to finish. Like I said while talking to them,they were stunned by the treatment.what I posted is that they were not whhel sucking,at times just were not 7 meters. They did not think someone that walked a marathon would be pissed at them for something 5 hrs earlier.....While on this rant for all you racers....The ones that really piss me off are the ones that in 15 16 hr range that run passed someone down the shoot,to get ahead one more spot to show they "raced". Must beat him to the line you know, in front of everyone. ....

"At $400 a pop wpould it be good for the sport if the three women above were DQ?"

DQ isn't necessary after the first infraction - but a warning and a time penlty is. Otherwise, how are these people going to learn the rules? Or that THERE ARE rules? Perhaps I'm atypical, but before my first little sprint race a few years ago, I read everything I could find on triathlon, including the rules - so I knew them even in my first race. Its not like people enter triathlons without knowing that there must be SOME rules involved, right? If they don't know that, I think the race is better off without them - or at least with such people starting in the last wave of the day where they are least likely to endanger or block others.

I have also posted in the past that I don't consider an Ironman-distance events appropriate for first-timer triathletes. I think the least that someone could do is complete a few shorter triathlons while training for IM. Therefore, they should know the rules by the time they get to IM.

"I would like to know other people's opinion on how draft legal races would affect bike setup. Seems to me that it would lessen the need for aero equipment and would increase the need for skills to ride in pack. Would this be good or bad? Seems to me that it would be good for the rider because he/she would need to learn the necessary skills to stay upright, seems bad for aero manufacturers as it would reduce demand for aero bars, wheels, etc.. "

In ITU (pro) racing, they ride what I believe are road bikes, with "shortie" aerobars that are not allowed to extend beyond the front hub. This prevents riders from getting really stretched out, which is where controlability of the bike suffers.

If regular age-group racing were draft-legal, I would think that even shortie aerobars would be dangerous, and could be illegal - although racers would still want some sort of aerobar for solo efforts. You are right that pack riding skills would be needed - and the sad fact is that many, if not most, experienced triathletes lack these skills. I race bikes in addition to triathlon, and I encourage all triathletes to do so because I think it sharpens your bike skills tremendously, and even the group rides (with bike racers) that I do increase pack riding skills, as well as my bike speed.

But, since most triathletes don't do these things - I think draft legal might just be too dangerous. As someone else pointed out, road races (bike) cap entries at 100-125 riders per category. Draft-legal tri would need to do the same. And I also agree with others on this board who have suggested that draft legal racing could be available, but only to those who have a USCF bike racing license indicating they have enough experience for drafting events. The problem with that is the exclusionary nature of such a rule.....

Despite the above........the true spirit of triathlon, in my mind, is the individual completing all three sports.....so NO DRAFTING!!!

Again..Yes they should know the rules!!!I think that when someone has been lapped on the bike(On a 2 loop course)Is avg 14mph and knows they will do a 5-6 marathon,just about all the competitive juices are quenched. Should this mean they can "cheat" absolutely not.It just that it no longer was a race.They were beat by so many people!!!At IM you will see some people being in the 16hr range being walked a mile or so by family or freinds,to encourage not to quit. Is this against the letter of the law...Yes Should a volunteer official be out there at 10pm to warn them? As far as your opinion that IM should not be a first time....Who cares..you can have your opinion...Just become an RD and do it

>>The ones that really piss me off are the ones that in 15 16 hr range that run passed someone down the shoot,to get ahead one more spot to show they "raced". Must beat him to the line you know, in front of everyone. ....<<

Kenney my friend, here is where we totally differ. I'm in that speed range and yes, I WILL pass someone in the chute if possible because I AM racing, even if it takes me a lot longer.

As for the "participating 40 year olds", my feelings on this subject are well known, so I'll keep my mouth shut.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Sorry Kenney, but I'll never buy the notion that paying a steep entry fee entitles one to break the rules. Ignorance of the rules is also no excuse. My question is why is it so common that people like these women can enter a world class event and have no idea of the rules? Sure they should look them up, but the rules need to be announced often and loudly...

>>I think that when someone has been lapped on the bike(On a 2 loop course)Is avg 14mph and knows they will do a 5-6 marathon,just about all the competitive juices are quenched.<<

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW WE FEEL!!!! So, please do not try to think for us.

Yes, this is a MAJOR flashpoint for me (can you tell?)

My competitive juices will be quenched the day I am DEAD.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I am soory I posted something that upset so much. On the competitive juices,I am always competing for myself. I always want to do better. I am not trying to tell you how you feel. I am not making myself clear. The dream for the podiom for me is foolishness.For me to think tht I am out there competing with the big boys is ridiculous. That I am competing against myself yes. That I do not want to be passed and want to pass the guy ahead of me,Yes.That I train (am traing for next yr)to be better yes. For me though, at the end of the day,1081 or1082 does not make a diff. I am out to do my best.As far as pasing "down the chute" Please Ironclm bear with me. I am inexperianced and only done the IMCDA. At about the 15.5hr mark a man was going down the chute with his 4 yr old. Right at the finish another guy pushed ahead and bumped in to the 4yr old almost knocking him down to pass 10yrds from the finish.I am sorry but that was BS. Maybe this is why you do not do these races,and for your likes maybe good reason. I can see why many people would say that the chute is not a place for family ect..This is what IM markets though. Guy crosses finish line with child ect.. Gets His picture of glory ect...That is what I meant about passing down the chute. Except for local races I have not been to other races. It seems that the IM's are more events than races. Or events that some choose to race....As far as the other poster about they should follow the rules ...You are right. I am talking about the spirit of the rule not the letter. Maybe I used a bad example....Someone breaks a chain,isn't it against the rules to accept any help from outside the course.? Someone loans him a chain tool,should He now be DQ? Maybe so. However if IM is marketing a product to the masses they are not going to DQ someone if it has no bearing on Hawaii slot. Look how many people Inside out sports helps on the course....To the person who replied that those women should have been given a warning,Yes,however it was stated before the race that the "RULES" were that no warnings would be given on the course..... Finally,on a course with 2,000 people I would like to meet one person who can say they never were guilty(even unintetionally)of the 7 meter rule in the first ten miles..Just to many people in to small a space.

Kenney, Kenney, Kenney,

First of all, don't apologize for your opinion! I totally don't agree with it, but that's OK. (But yeah, don't be telling how to think/feel/etc. and we'll be fine.)

>>The dream for the podiom for me is foolishness.<< Why do you say that? Let me tell you a little story. IM NZ 2002. My friend Cathy T. finishes in something like 16:15. Not her best, not her worst. She was LAST in her AG. She goes to the roll down meeting just because. The Kona spot rolls right down to her. She had a fabulous time and race at IMH 2002. Moral of the story? You never know what will happen on a given day.

4 year old kids in the finishing chute: Again, we differ BIG TIME! Get those damn kids out of the chute. Don't like em, don't want any. (No, I am NOT a parent and will never be one. Yes, we can all be thankful about that.) Again, my opinon. Yours may differ. That's what makes the world go round.

>>It seems that the IM's are more events than races.<< You may be right about that, though they now hold themselves out (at least at Lake Placid), to be the US Championships. That sounds like a RACE to me.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Marty: Top racers/coaches like you are the kind of people who can help change the character of these races. You know all the possible solutions and all the problems. You also know all the top RDs, pros and amateurs. You are the kind of person we need out front on these issues.

FWIW, I have noticed who is getting penalties and for which infractions. "Drafting the whole course"! Bwuahahaha.... Send him back to rules school....I won't mention names or races. (I'm not talking about Marty.)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I like that story of getting to the podium. Cool!!As far as 4 yr olds in the chute. I did not say I disagree with you.(never had kids either,Am very happy with my shelly,half lab half aussie shepard)From everything I am reading on this forum and what I have learned seems to be this. There is Triathalon and there is NA IM. Though those in Tri"s do IM. Those who do Tri's do the M dot those who do M dot do not appreciate Triathalon. It seems that those who do M dot for the experiance challenge are at least initially of a different mindset that do Alcatrazn,Vineman ect.. When I think about the comments I have made and of others, it seems that there is disagreement because we do not realize we are talking two different languages.Wher you have a tri lifestyle,it seems your events would never have kids in the chute. At IMCDA half the people that finished seemed to have family members in the chute.One guy walked His grandfather who had a stroke down the chute,saying"No grandpa we are doing this together,You are why I can do this." Touching(no I am not making this up). It seemed perfectly appropriate "there" maybe not someplace else though. I would be interested from someone who has done many different events,races, if there is just a totally different flavor to the M dot events compared to others....More competitive ect(in the MOP) ect.. Remember when you said that I may have hit on something when talking about ignorance.I myself and many others,including the examples were/are very ignorant of it being any different. For myself...I am hooked. After IMCDA 2004(I have to do the whole run,running)I plan to try small and large races. I want the spice of life......I want to learn...I want to grow....I want to get better.....See you at the races!!

This is all very worthy - everyone is agreed that cheating is bad, and most people (apart from those who hold that you can't cheat if you're not 'racing') think that drafting is cheating.

However, there are a bunch of people out there who do draft - or cheat, call it what you will. Either everyone on slowtwitch is a paragon of virtue, to whom the thought of breaking rules is an abhorrence, or some people are being a bit holier than they might honestly have a right to be.

Whatever you think about drafting, I honestly don't see how it's possible not to draft at IM unless you are one of the top 10 swimmers at the race. I normally get out somewhere in the top 50, and I have no idea how you can stay 10 yards (or 7) behind people at the start of the bike. As soon as you do slow down, some other guy will pass you - so you have to drop back to get out of his zone. Guess what happens while you're doing that?

Anyway, until IMNA puts fewer people on the course, and people stop thinking that drafting is what other people do, or that it's something that you can only do on purpose, or that it doesn't count if you're only trying to finish, or that..... there's going to be drafting. Stop whining about it, train harder, and beat whoever it is that's bugging you.

In my opinion, I would prefer swimming to be illegal to draft. Coming from my long swimming back ground, I know that drafting is huge in swimming. I also know from practice that hanging onto a college guy that came to swim with us during christmas training during repeat 200 fast was a piece of cake. He did a 1:56 on one while I did a 1:53 leaving 5 seconds behind him in the same lane. I wouldn't be able to do a 1:56 by myself in training. It makes sense that a :58 pace produces a bigger draft than a 1:25 pace. An opinion like mine, I guess, would come mainly from a swimmer that is usually first or near to it out of the water since they would expierence a bigger and stronger draft.

To help the cycling rant, this suggestion might work for any RD that would adopt this to his/her race. From my previous races, the RD always does a quick run down of the rules within 15 minutes of the start of the race. From talking to other people and my pre-race methods, 15 minutes before a 2 hour and 14 minute race, I'm in my own world getting myself mentally ready. I must confess that I don't like to hear the speech because I've read the rule book and would rather be standing by the water with my eyes closed. I'm a good boy and still tune in for any important information I will need to know for a safe and fast race, though I bet most people don't soak it all in. Therefore, I think it would be a great idea that at race packet pick up, you should have to sign a form stating that you will not preform any illegal action. Also, the triathlete competiting int he race should have to say a line such as, "As a triathlete and racer, I will obey the rules set by USAT such as drafting and blocking to make the race as safe as possible for myself and fellow races." Sort of like taking an oath. What do you guys think?

I think Gordo is right. The real key is the number of people on a specific course. Two things would help a lot (in terms of organizing a race): 1) single loop course; 2) limit entries to IMs, to maybe no more than 4/500 people. I hate to bring up Lanzarote again but with a hard single loop course and not more than 600 people, it was really hard if not impossible to even think about drafting.
Filippo

Cathy, since I started this post in the beginning I thought I'd throw out another thought.....

What about making Tris and Dus like the bike racers do...Instead of age groups (part of the drafting problem, and safety I might ad) have everybody apply for and earn a Cat ranking...Then the people in the waves would be competing against people of similar ability?? Now, here might be the problem: Similar swim means bunched up on the bike course...Ahhhh, now you could assign enough course mashalls to cover the division and break up the packs....Just a thought and would like to hear feedback...I thought I hear rumors years ago that Tri Fed (the name then) was considering Cat. type racing.

Good idea, but how to do practically? Someone might be a cat. 2 biker, but a cat. 5 swimmer and cat. 3 runner. I like the idea that one RD here has--an "experienced triathlete" wave first, then AG waves, then a beginner/first timer wave last. For IMNA races, you will continue to have problems as long as they have huge fields and mass starts. Don't think either of those things will change soon since trademarked IM races in the US are a cash cow.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Gordo my friend, you hit at least one nail right on the head. Up till a couple of years ago I was a vociferous champion of draft free racing. I am still, only now I keep my comments to myself. Why? No more reason than the hottest fires burn out rapidly. However, I have drafted at a race. It was Eagleman 2002. Let me tell you how it happened.

That year, Eagleman had 1500 entries. My swim wave was HUGE, and it never cleared out. My wave was about mid point in the wave starts, IIRC. I'm a mediocre swimmer and I had a mediocre swim. I'm usually in the top 30% on the bike though, and I typically find clear roads after 20 minutes or so at Eagleman. The road was so crowded there was no way to NOT be drafting, and I'd have challenged any official who dared to give out penalties at that point in the race. So I just did my thing, and the roads never cleared out. I kept doing it, and they never cleared out. I kept doing it, and they never cleared out. It became obvious to me that Eagleman cannot support 1500 people without drafting problems on the bike. I gave up feeling terrible about being either right behind someone or passing someone or being stuck behind groups of people because of racers riding side by side. It was a terribly sad situation for me. Disgruntled, I gave in and decided to make the best of it by riding without worrying about and riding with disregard to the rules. I've never seen a bike course like that before, or since.

I can say that for 56 miles the roads never cleared out. I can say that I honestly gave in - and didn't intentionally draft to gain advantage, but I didn't care if I happened to be legally drafting. Previously in any and all races I dropped back as required, or passed as required.

A month or so later, at IMUSA, I knocked 90 minutes off of my previous best bike ride there without even approaching a drafting situation.

That was the day I decided to never do Eagleman again unless Vig drops the numbers back to 800 or so.

So, yes, after countless races of being a conscientious anti-drafter, I drafted. What was a man to do? I decided to demand lower numbers of participants by making my view known and refusing to do races over and over again where that problem exists.

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Elivis needs boats.

I raced today in a local "fun" sprint and noticed that the drafting was far worse than usual in the competitive wave. Usually you see drafting in the regular waves, which doesn't really bother me much because it is not a timed or sanctioned race, but the competitive wave is usually pretty tame. Not today...

Some guy on an extremely fancy Zipp beam bike was sucking my wheel for a couple miles, then had the nerve to pull up next to me on a hill and tell me what a good pace I was keeping. Yeah, good for him, the lazy sack...

This guy, however, was nothing compared to the sever or eight riders doing a very organized rotating pace line with 20 second pulls. I was shooting for a top 10 overall, but how the hell am I supposed to keep up with them???

What made matters worse was the idiots had the nerve to gather at the end of the finishing chute and congratulate themselves on their "great times". Please!

I am ranting about this more than I should since it is an untimed "fun" race, but it is probably the only race where I actually stand a chance of getting in the top 10, and to have a bunch of idiots ruin my day is a real bummer. (I supposed the race wasn't all bad since I did finish 20 seconds under my goal time despite a terrible swim where someone tried to use me as a buoy, but that's another story...).

As a 52 year-old FOP age grouper, I'd love to have all the pokey 30-somethings start behind me.

Last year the SC Sentinel started all the men's waves ahead of all the women's (imagine such a thing in SANTA CRUZ of all places!!) and I loved not having to pick my way through so many slow riders, although I still ended up passing a great many slow guys.

Why don't triathlons seed by previous times, instead of by age?

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

here are two observations i made recently. i am wondering about them:

as a poster above notes, i recently watched a small town Y tri where the drafting was completely out of control. huge groups of people, including most of the female AG winners, were simply riding along like they were on their local group ride, actually chatting and pulling and all. backmarker too, were clinging on guys. i asked the promoter about it, he said that a local roadie group had volunteered to be marshals but had not shown up.

also recently, i worked a endurance mt bike race. the course was 100% very tight singletrack, and was VERY hard. there were numerous points on the course where the trail came within inches of a long shortcut - easily doable, and nobody would ever have been the wiser - yet nobody took the shortcut - or cuts so far as we could tell.

now then, why is this - do you suppose? i do not know, myself.

but, i do know this - the problem here lies in the participants, and not the promoter nor the format. you cannot marshal every inch of every course and that is that. this is a participitory sport, and if the mass of participants feel cutting the course or drafting on the bike ( same thing, to me) is something that they want to do they are gonna do it.

i suggest people try to figure out WHY tri-heads in large enuf number feel this is acceptable, and approach it head on from there. at the mt bike race we did discuss the issue and more or less decided if we thought the course was being compromised we would not hold ANY awards at all, and would call the race a " ride" halfway thru and that would be that. if the masses complained we would say tough luck - we were not going to hand out awards in a compromised event. maybe if the scumbag fessed up we would axe him and go on, but only if we could do so promptly within the software. the integrity of the event would not be compromised.

i think something similar would work for tri. say up front - " any drafting out there and that's it - we can't be everywhere, and if the event is compromised we will declare it null and void as a race, period".

think you could live with that? the mt bikers can. how bad do you want clean races? drafting is a choice, just as is cutting a course - blaming the crowds, or mass starts, or where your wave is is total bullshit. the rules are simple. but, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs - can all of you sick of it deal with a race or three whacking the event entirely in order to claen up things ?

TFF Pleasanton?

The guy with the Zipp is almost always there. I was the guy on the Stealth with the Accell II (mustard colored) disc wheel.

I got stuck in the second pack, because there was no way to get around them for quite a while. Then, after it opened up and I passed the group, they started working together, and caught me. I ended up finishing pretty much with them.

What's amazing is that TFF has no official finish order, nor USAT ranking points, so the point of "winning" even at the expense of cheating would be what?

I think it's a maturity problem. That and over 50% of the field was doing their first ever.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...