Yeah I would imagine this is the case for many. If I reach that level this year, I would certainly consider trying to find a job that fit in with the lifestyle and go after it. But again, it would be a lot to think about.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

Very true. (and thanks!) But what we are talking about here is people that aren't making a living off of triathlon. In the case of this guy chatting with us now, he's an engineer with a full time job. He's got zero pressure to be a great pro and win prize money. Tri prize money is probably a rounding error in his annual salary. It seems it's just perceived social pressure for guys like him to go super hard and worry about being mega-awesome. And that becomes exhausting.

Knowing what I know now, and not really giving a shit about that pressure, I believe I would race pro if I was good enough to qualify as one so I got all the extra perks. But I'm older and don't care what other people think anymore. That's a perk in itself (you older guys know what I'm talking about and how awesome it is.) But I also am not so deluded to think that I know for sure what I'd do until I was in that situation. Social pressure sure feels real when it's happening to you.

I think if we surveyed people, 90% would say they would race pro if they could. But if you actually made it happen, only 50% would because the other half would have list of reasons why they chose not to. Probably the biggest would be not to embarrass themselves compared to other pros.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I think PhillyTri still does this (and probably other Escape races?). You only have to prove that you have done an Oly in <2:15 in the past (well, for men at least). Not a SUPER fast time but fast enough to get the best people to the front. It's voluntary and takes you out of the AG awards, but allows you to race off the front before the main pack crowds the course. I figure if you are able to put down 2:15 or better than earning yet another AG podium award isn't as enticing as being able to race for the overall amateur win, or just have a clear course to race on. And if it is enticing, well that's fine too and you can remain in the AG.

I think i figured it out.... AWA points are based on the fastest time in your AG. OP wants that gold kit (that anyone can buy) without having to slog through 3 WTC races.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

But again, it would be a lot to think about.

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Which is why USAT gives you 3 years to "prove" your worth. Hell it took GJ nearlly 3 year process to decide if she even really wanted to do itu racing. She made London games and was still part timing as accountant. She really exploded when she finally went "all in" after summer of 2012z. Which for her meant quitting her job, moving into a full time training camp and getting daily coaching.

So I think you just have to figure out your niche. If you want to go all in, great go all in but you need time to see if it works before quitting pro ranks.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

To suggest that someone might go on to the next level just because they can produce an elite level performance as defined by the governing body of our sport simply shows that you are oblivious to the challenges these athletes would face. I used to think it was about ability level and one should "move up" naturally but have educated myself and it turns out that there isn't a framework to support that.

At the AG level there are sponsorships, podiums, wildly enthusiastic & often free coach support, free bicycles/wetsuits/even paychecks from private sponsors. If an AG podium staple leaves the top AG ranks and goes to the back of the elite race they risk losing all of that. Further, it is not the "trend" right now so there is plenty of competition right where these athletes you speak of compete...in the age group.

An athlete accepting their elite card would surely open themselves up to backlash. There is a stigma about this unless they can stay with the lead pack and win money. They risk a loss of their sponsors that they worked hard to obtain. The athletes would experience some ridicule from the tri public as their results are highlighted and they are beaten by the very age groupers they used to race. They are unlikely to get the support of coaches, sponsors, race production companies etc. They would have to travel to find races. They would have to chase Kona on the tight points system and likely with out the sponsorship and support they had as an AG athlete. They have feelings, families, sponsors, coaches and careers that must all be considered right along with those elite level results you mention. Just because someone has the lifestyle and/or talent to beat pros doesn’t mean they have what it takes to race in that field.

It is not seen as an "elite" card by most. It is seen as a "pro card" and there is a sentiment from the upper echelons that if you can't win and make money you shouldn't "go pro" or race pro. These athletes you speak of might BE elite performers but many don't "feel" elite enough and many are even told they aren’t good enough to go pro by the leaders in sport that they trust.

The only reason it makes sense to take that elite card would be if one is massively intrinsically motivated with extremely thick skin, is comfortable with being alone, is very confident and wants to race at the highest level solely to find their true capability. That is quite a tall order and is asking way too much of "most" humans. Ability level categories would be neat but that is unlikely to happen for now. An elite card isn't "seen" as an ability level category and especially not on this forum. Based on what I have learned through discussions such as this, anyone who is lacking a certain strength of character and a unique & special motivational drive would be eaten alive and miserable as a pro. There is not a strong system in place for a developmental pro that I know about. Therefore, some true heroes in top levels of triathlon in my opinion are in fact the rookie pros. Cheers to those who are brave enough, bold enough and also fast enough to make that choice.

There is not a strong system in place for a developmental pro that I know about.

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A league like MLT that supports 32 pros in US should be applauded. I hope they can survive and make some $ to really grow that series. I am taking a group of athletes down to charlotte to watch the race in mid May, should be fun to watch them race.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Or to get into sold-out races at the last minute, get a better bike rack spot, get a cleaner, mass swim start, and to get to use those stupid "pro only" crappers in the transition area. Only half-kidding. I really needed to take a whiz and they literally had staffers protecting their plastic pee-castles from us lower echelon scum. Like our pee isn't good enough!? Outrage! (shakes fist)

I love being alone on the race course. The only thing I don't like about races is the crowding that leads to crashing and drafting. Put me in a no-man's land? How fast can you sign me up?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

There's still a few around in short course racing in Australia, but they seem to be getting less common. I guess one bonus in short course too is that no one is trying to qualify for Kona, having a fun race is the main point.

Oh, good point! That is awesome and sounds like a good time too! Have fun. :-)

Totally forgot about those special perks, LOL!

To me, there is no correlation between pro and speed.

Pro's race for money (and sponsorship). Slow pro's won't make much prize money, but may make local sponsorhip money that's enough to subsidize their income. Pro usually means you're full time, with no "real job".

If you've got a great job with good money, can afford all the good gear and coaches etc, you can end up going pretty fast. While I don't make a ton of money, my contract prohibits me from having any other job, regardless of whether it's work related or not. Even if I was really good, I'd have to quit my job to turn pro and that would be a big hit financially.

Some pro's are doing it so they can live the dream and tell their kids they raced pro back in the day. I have a buddy that was a pretty good triathlete. He has a handicapped brother. He quit his job, turned pro and raced for one season. He became pro, because his brother wanted him to see how good he could be if he committed to the sport 100%. There are all sorts of reasons for being pro or not.

Hell, back in the day I was a pro skier. I turned pro to meet girls! I was a funny looking skinny kid, but once I turned pro at 16, chicks at high school took notice ; -). I made almost no money but was living the dream. Some winnings, a few bucks from the local ski shop and sponsorship for equipment and I was still living at home, so it worked a treat. After a few seasons I switched to teaching and coaching and made way more money and met even more women. It was awesome. My wife (35 years so far) was one of my ski students, so turning pro was one of the best decisions of my life. :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

the incentive is you have some f*cking self respect

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

there are like 5 professional triathletes in the Ironman peloton world wide in that case

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Someone else mentioned it above but there is a lack of support for athletes trying to make it. For a sport this expensive, it's hard to get everything you need, travel to a race on little money.

Also, some of these AG elite teams like Every Man Jack, seem to be supported better than some pros. At least that look damn sharp in uniformed gear and there is a TEAM behind them, a support system if you will.

But then again I don't know what sponsorships look like for someone who just takes an elite card.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

You do know what a correlation is, right? ;^)

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

To me I'd like to see it a little more like cycling classifications. Less emphasis on age groups and a little more on classification. Condense to above and below 40, cat 1-4 (or whatever numbers who cares on specifics for a blog post I'm open to compromise I don't work for Congress). I think most of us have been in a race where we killed it, ran a PR, and somehow came in last. Then two weeks later, ran worse, and somehow took 2nd in our age group. Or been in a race where only 2 of us were in the AG, then a month later had 14 in our AG. This would even it out a little more, still give people a couple pieces of the unimportant wall candy we all love to complain about so much. Plus we wouldn't have to stand around for hours after a race in the rain waiting for race management to post the damn results so we can collect our medal or just go home.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

At the AG level there are sponsorships, podiums, wildly enthusiastic & often free coach support, free bicycles/wetsuits/even paychecks from private sponsors. If an AG podium staple leaves the top AG ranks and goes to the back of the elite race they risk losing all of that.

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I'd like to see if this is a real thing. Do you have examples of this, because I'd argue A) the actual "sponsorship" being provided to AG'ers (there is a huge difference between sponsored athlete and getting product discount) B) i've not seen it happen with people turning pro.

eta: I truly think it comes down to attitude more than anything. Being able to handle the humility of getting your ass handed to you *to start*. Some can do it, some want nothing to do with it. Which there is no right answer, and I'm talking more about athletes who can consistently "qualify" as a pro...so someone who would consistently finish mid pro pack at a race and simply sits on the AG label.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

tridork wrote:
To me, there is no correlation between pro and speed.
You do know what a correlation is, right? ;^)




But one could look at the relationship ('correlation') between speed and pro status using logistic regression. Speed is the continuous predictor variable, pro/no-pro is the binary response variable. :^)

Maybe old news but ask and you shall receive:




Received an email about this for Staffordshire 70.3 this morning. Now we can all debate if sub 5:30 is really 'Age Group Elite' and when WTC will start to charge extra for it.

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________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

 
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I'd like to see if this is a real thing. Do you have examples of this, because I'd argue A) the actual "sponsorship" being provided to AG'ers (there is a huge difference between sponsored athlete and getting product discount) B) i've not seen it happen with people turning pro.

eta: I truly think it comes down to attitude more than anything. Being able to handle the humility of getting your ass handed to you *to start*. Some can do it, some want nothing to do with it. Which there is no right answer, and I'm talking more about athletes who can consistently "qualify" as a pro...so someone who would consistently finish mid pro pack at a race and simply sits on the AG label.[/quote]
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Yes, I have plenty of specific examples of all of the above but seeing as they aren't my deals it's not my place to point out the companies or athletes. Risking loss of sponsorship when they aren't going to Kona and winning AG as well as "not being good enough" has been cited to me a number of times as reasons not to take the elite card. Regarding the cash, I've only personally talked to one who claimed to have this. I do believe the athlete.
Totally aware that some folks will received a coupon & a tshirt and think they are sponsored. That's not what I meant.
I suspect their sponsors might still support them without the podiums but am not entirely sure.

I have agreed with your position but I now try harder to be compassionate towards those who don't have the same mindset or thick skin. I have upset some of my friends for my lack of understanding in the past so I do try to see where their struggle is.

Personally, if I were fast enough to earn the elite card & was beating the AG field repeatedly by leaps and bounds I know that I would feel very disappointed in myself for lacking the conviction to move up. That's just how I am wired in sport and in life. I'm not fast enough to have the option though so I can't prove it. I still try to have empathy etc for those who do not think like I do. Everyone has their reasons and there's no rule against it. Our sports culture sure doesn't support a move up from what I've been told.

Ok, so are you referring to a logistic regression (as in log values) or logistic regression (as in logical)? If the former, then I would argue that speed should be plotted on a linear scale, rather than log scale (although I could see one making the argument that it should be log since drag/resistance increases with the square of the velocity). As for the latter, since there is nothing logical about taking on a pro status, I would have to discount it entirely...but I regress...just about every time I try to up my training.
Now, given speed as the predictor value, and a binary response, then we are dealing with a threshold value based on averages of control values (which may be delineated by a large enough sample size to determine significance). Since we are talking about a recreational activity, and I have determined that I have no significance in any race I enter; I would propose that all participants should exist in a state of superposition between pro and non-pro states, and that discussions like this are interrogating/disrupting the sine wave and collapsing it into a big gooey mess of disharmony.
I think that we can fix it by joining hands and singing kumbaya.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

"mutual relation of two or more things, parts, etc.:"

As outlined in this very thread, there are plenty of slow (relatively) pro's and plenty of fast amateurs.

Having a pro licence doesn't make you fast, and going fast doesn't make you pro. Many pro's ARE fast, but so are many amateurs. There is no line in the sand with regard to speed that says faster than X, and you're pro, or if you can't beat Y time, you lose your pro licence

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

But doesnt being a pro correlate with being fast? I believe that the two are correlated...but I was really just being a wiseass. Ill try to cut that out.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I admit there is a trend that pros are generally at the pointy end of the race and generally faster than non-pros, but my point was that sending in a form for a pro licence doesn't make you fast.

I'm MOP. About 25 years ago, I noticed that to race for a year in Canada was (please forgive me, I forget the exact $numbers) about $100, then entry fees. To race pro was just $40 and there was a break on entry fees too. A buddy and I were both poor and thought long and hard about turning pro. We even noticed that in a few races, there weren't enough pros to fill out the prize money ranks! Even with poor performances, we could pick up a few $ just by finishing. We ended up not doing it, and just decided to race less often, but we did look into it and consider it pretty thoroughly.

Then about 10 years ago, I was looking at racing IMC, but the entry requirements were nuts. 1) if you raced this year, you could enter next years race, on the day after this years race. 2) You had to enter IN PERSON at the race venue, IF there were any places left over for next year. Now that I'm in New Zealand, that would have been about a $2k flight, plus accommodation etc, for a risky chance to enter next years race. Then I noticed that pro's could enter any time, no worries. I actually hit up a couple of buddies at TriNZ to see if they'd let me have a pro licence. One laughed his ass off (he'd seen me in a speedo) but said yeah, what the hell. The other laughed as well, but said no, as they had their reputation to think about. I ended up not turning pro that time either (wife said no to a trip back to Canada, just for a race, but that's beside the point)

Having a pro licence does not make you fast. Training, equipment, genetics, nutrition etc makes you fast, not a piece of paper.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"