Classic!

Innocent until proven guilty?

Sadly, I don't think that is the general consesus with cycling.

Personally I just like to think: "I hope that he is clean, or does not test positive"

Perhaps this makes me too cynical, but it is the way that I think.

As I have said before, I appreciate the individual athletes and events like the TDF regardless of this cynical mindset. Even though there is a lot of doping - there are still the tactics, and the bold moves, and the amazing performances. Even dudes that are doped to the gills are working their hearts out on those big climbs in the Alps. I don't know who they are or aren't, so I would prefer to sit back and enjoy!

quite honestly I am not surprised at all. It makes me mad because I would like to give pro sports a chance but know that with making the decision to make it pro comes the decision to dope. Not initially but eventually.

Look at Landis, how can he be down one day and have such a great performance the next? It could be tactics and in order for the pelaton to let him go on that mountainous stage he had to be down in the classification by some time. But why would he do that in the first place when he knows that he can put on such a strong performance? It could be tactics but at the same time it would be silly to gamble like that. How come he can ride away from group of people? Something doesn't add up. It's not like he showed up for the local sunday morning ride. It's not like he is the lightest guy in the group either.


It's for this reason that I barely watch the TDF. I don't support such a circus that year after year is in the spotlight for doping scandals without doing anything abou it. In my opinion, Pro sports would become much more meaningful if a doper caught of using PED receives a LIFETIME ban from ALL pro sports. Until that becomes the norm we will always face doping scandals.


Now if you take a minute and think about Mr. Armstrong. Yes, he didn't get caught and it isn't fair to question his performances. But pro cycling consists of a group of athletes and all those athletes are physiological, genetic exceptions to start with. Now you have a LA that crushes the entire competition, year after year when his competitors are getting caught of using PEDs. I'm not saying that those athletes are not working their asses of and train hard, but I clearly doubt that those results are being done without the assistance of PEDs. I would say that Lance Armstrong has a pretty strong ego and if it were up to him he would have worn yellow to 10 TDF victories. Why would he start and risk not winning during his 7th TDF when he was already more victorious than any other TDF rider with 6 consecutive wins? He is one cocky, arrangant, successful guy. It doesn't make sense to me that he stopped at that point in time. Could it be that his medical staff advised him not to participate? Did he and his team know more than others?


Again, I'm the first to admit that it isn't fair to question once performance when nothing indicates a positive drug test result. But given all the circumstances nothing suprises me anymore. Sad but unfortunatley true...

---

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

The testoserone threshold for PED test is 4 x 1, normal is 1 x 1, and hard training tends to make one have LOWER results.

So, unfortunately, I doubt it.

Because his contract with Discovery called for him to race the TdF again, that's why.

[reply][.reply][..reply]unlike running, you mean?[../reply]

Yes. While i�m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel[./reply]
---
Gotcha. Hence the 'Laufladen', not the 'Radladen' :-)[/reply]

Yup! :-)

Axel

What bothers me the most about this, despite the obvious, is why the hell did Phonak sell him out? Yeah, there were rumors, there was speculation. But why would the team issue the press release before testing the B sample? They have a built in excuse for missing the races and they're supposed to have the B sample in a week or so. I don't get it.

---

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Very good point. There MUST be more to all of this than just the "A" sample.

~ AB ~

Let me help you:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

---

adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

So at this point why haven't we seen a press release or something from the Landis camp stating that Floyd absolutely did not take PED's? I would think they would want to start the public relations campaign sooner rather than later.

---

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

because it does not make sense to start everything when the B sample hasn't been analyzed yet.

Of course he tested positive for high levels of testosterone.

Anyone who watched stage 17 can plainly see that the man has balls the size of watermelons.

*********

Yes, and I'm sure Pantani, Ullrich, Basso, and Virenque had big balls too.

Let's make AC/DC the official Rock Group for the 2006 Tour DAY France:

"Landis has big balls
And they're such big balls
Dirty big balls
And Lance has a big ball
And Basso's got big balls
But the Peloton has got the biggest balls of them all

And their balls are always bouncing
The road is always full
And everybody attacks and attacks again
If your name is on the start list
No one can take you faster
Everybody says we've got
Great balls of fire

CHORUS

Some balls are held for charity
And some for fancy crits
But when they're held for the tour DAY france
They're the balls that I like best
Their balls are always bouncing in the sprints
To the left and to the right
It's my belief that my big balls
Should be injected with testoserone every night!"

Yeah I think Floyd rides with a set of these under his seat too to let everyone know his balls are big and not to fck with him.

---

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

And you don't want to race bikes professionally, it literally makes your balls shrink....

Just realize that this is actually funny in more than one way.

---

adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

[reply]
And Lance has big ball
[/reply]

Crude and obvious, I know, but in the interests of accuracy...

"Also, I am a she, not a he. "

Sorry, let me change that:

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that she is NOT a child molestor just because she has not been caught.

And if you are suggesting that women are not child molestors, that owuld be incorrect.

"However, I do not participate in a profession that is ridalled with child molestation."

You are a human being. The human race is riddled with child molestors. Just because they are not all caught doesn't mean they are not there, according to your logic. And, of course, we seem to be catching a bunch of them.

"'You certainly did not bring any to the table here.'

As I said previously. You have your opinion, and I have mine. "

I did not bring opinion to the argument, I brought specific examples and used those to argue, which you did not do. You argued opinion and your feelings. I really hope you did not do that on your dissertation.

You still do not even know my opinion on the subject.

"Cheers"

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

This is a disciplinary procedure, not the courts - quote from cyclingnews about Ullrich:

---------------------------------------

Prof. Gerhard Walter, head of the disciplinary committee of the Swiss Olympic Committee, is waiting for the investigation material from the Spanish police and Operation Puerto concerning Jan Ullrich, who rides with a Swiss license.

Walter told Bild that if charges are raised against Ullrich, "it can all go very quickly. I would try to have the process finished within three to four weeks."

Ullrich claims that there are no grounds for a process, and that his guilt must first be proven. "That is nonsense," Walter said in Bild. "The presumption of innocence applies for those in normal courts. But we are dealing with a disciplinary procedure. The WADA code applies, and the athlete must prove his case. One could draw conclusions from Ullrich's reluctance to work with us."

--------------------------------------

Vassuer, 2004.

why the hell did Phonak sell him out?

They know the truth.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Ullrich claims that there are no grounds for a process, and that his guilt must first be proven.

I think a lot of riders were hoping that line of thinking would work.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

You are a human being. The human race is riddled with child molestors. Just because they are not all caught doesn't mean they are not there, according to your logic. And, of course, we seem to be catching a bunch of them.

What is the incidence of child molestors in society? How does that compare with incidence of doping in pro cycling? I honestly don't know.

And yes, I suspect that there are many more child molestors than are caught. However, I do not associate in communties densly contained with known child molestors. A little bit OT, I think.

I did not bring opinion to the argument, I brought specific examples and used those to argue, which you did not do. You argued opinion and your feelings.

My specific examples:

- Pereiro's statements about his performances

- Best perfromances by Nina Kraft et al. = Doping

- Ullrich not testing positive, yet there is a possibility that he is guilty

I don't believe that I really presented any feelings.

I really hope you did not do that on your dissertation.

If you know anything about what is in a dissertation (and you might), you do form theories (a form of opinion) based on evidence. I have presented examples (above) that has enabled me to form an opinion or theory.

It seems as though you want to hit below the belt. I'm not sure why.


You still do not even know my opinion on the subject.

I have asked you twice if you think that Pereiro is doping - your opinion. You have chosen not to answer.

In your original post, you stated the following: "Pereiro was screwed, if this was caused by doping. The greatest moment of his career snatched away from him. " From this, I would guess that it is your opinion that Pereiro was screwed.

It seems that I upset you with my original reply to your original post, where you said that Pereiro was screwed, and then I implied with sarcasm that he is probably not clean either based on his TT, and suggested that you were naive to think so. You have suggested that my view is "assinine", that "I pull things out of my ass", that I am "lame", questionned whether I have gone to college, and questionned whether or not I would be able to defend my work, you even brought in child molestation to this conversation. I'm not sure why. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way by suggesting that your view was naive.

I don't really think that this is a constructive discussion, as neither of us seeming to be gaining anything from it.

Regardless, have a great day and Cheers :-) ... And I hope Floyd is cleared.

You have completely changed your argument over the course of the series of posts. You brought no examples to back you up, only opinions. Get a dictionary.

"My specific examples:"

"Ullrich not testing positive, yet there is a possibility that he is guilty"

That is not an example. There is a possiblility everybody is guilty. You would not know an example if it hit you in the face.

"Pereiro's statements about his performances."

His opinion, not a fact. Times, places and time differentials of his in the past, facts.

"Best perfromances by Nina Kraft et al. = Doping "

Anecdotal. You arw drawing conclusions out of the air. You say having a "Best Performance" equals doping. However, when Floyd has his "Best Performance" you say it does not imply doping. When I show you Pereiro has had performances equal to his in the TdF TT, you dismiss that and still say his performance means doping. You are trying to selectively choose arguments and opinions to suit your case and discard those that don't, even if they are identical.

Oh, and be sure to try using your sarcasm while defending what I am sure is well written dissertation. That works well for you.

My opinion? You are an idiot. That is my opinion of mine, but I think it is well backed up by you idiotic posts, lack of logic, and failure to understand what is a fact and what is not.

If you are defending a PhD, it only goes to show what a serious problem there is in the US educational system. That is only an opinion, however.

Muscle Physiology? Enjoy being a personal trainer.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Wow.

I was just trying to make some peace with you in my last post. It just goes to show how an internet forum can cause all inflection to be misconstrued.

I'm sorry that you feel that way about me. I would like to think that if we were to discuss face to face, you might form a different opinion.

I hope that our next encounter is much more amicable.

Peace.

Andrea