What a disappointment, if it's confirmed.

Shit!

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

Crap.

Stage 17 was a super-human effort, though. I can imagine the rationalization that went on.

What a damn shame.

Anybody out there know what this means: "an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio"

Worst news of the week. Hopefully there is some physiological reason for it (other than the obvious), like cold med's or some weird food he ate ... Yes, grasping at straws, but sheesh. For the sample to be from his 17th stage, too, really sux.

This is a copy of a press release I received from Phonak about 15 minutes ago. I posted it in the other thread, and I'll post it again here. I've been on Phonak's emailing list since the Tour de Georgia. Here's what the team had to say this morning:

The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI of an unusual level of Testosteron/Epitestosteron ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France.
The Team Management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result.
The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation.
In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear.
If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations.
Please understand that we cannot at this time give you more detailed comments.

RP

this is just shameful and embarassing if it is him! If he knew it, how did he find the courage to step on the podium in Paris? What is left in the sport?

Well that sucks

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Man that really sucks. Uggggh, what a downer.

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Don't hold back

Don't know if this helps, found it on google.

Testosterone and epitestosterone are both synthesised by the body, so that in urine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is <6.
If a sport competitor takes testosterone as a performance enhancing drug, the ratio is increased above 6.

http://www.rcpamanual.edu.au/sections/pathologytest.asp?s=33&i=601

wow.....

just wow.....

---

Dan DeMaio
---------------------------------------------------------
Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
- Albert Einstein

Steroids are also involved in the process that caused his hip problem...

Of course he was doping. How else would an American win the Tour?

;-)

---

Richard Melik | I work for the following companies | Zwift.com | Freespeed Bike Fit (UK)
Manager | David McNamee

Being Canadian and now living in the US. This feels just like Ben Jonhson all over again. Absolute high from the win. Then a punch in the stomach immediately afterwards. If it is true sad day.

I quess Jacques Anquetil maybe correct when he said that "the TdF is not won on mineral water alone."

Good news for Pro cycling!

We have now completed the cycle:

2005 Vuelta: Winner Positive (Heras)

2006 Giro: Winner Implicated (Basso)

2006 Tour: Winner Preliminary Positive (Landis).

I just hope they can keep up the streak at the 06 Vuelta.

BTW, fellow weekend warriors: let's not forget to pat ourselves on the back for doing what we do while holding full time jobs, raising kids -etc....without using drugs. I saw 2000 such people last weekend in Lake Placid & the joke's on the dopers. We win in the end, because we know we EARNED IT. Go us.

Cheers.

-DW

Well, look on the bright side, IF he is guilty he'll have two years to rehabilitate after his hip replacement surgery.

Testosterone patches placed on the testicles help athletes recover quickly. I hope after his bonking day he did not cave to the pressure and use this procedure.

---

Scott Murison

http://www.wildrock.net/

You missed the Olympic gold medal winner, Tyler (off that time by a technicality)

darn it all to heck!

---

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Do you really think that every competitor was 100% clean of all doping regulations?

---

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

why would this be release before the B test is complete?? it's horrible. just horrible.

i would think his testosterone would be through the roof after a ride like that naturally! just on the fist punch alone.

wow

...this might change cycling as we know it.

---

---

Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

Anyone know how long it will be before the second test results come back?

Because the media was going to find out anyway, either through a leak, or by figuring out which team/country was notified, or process of elimination by which teams/countries weren't notified.

if this is true, Phonak has the worst doping doctors in the world...they all get caught!

[reply]Worst news of the week.
---
a little perspective please?

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Josef
-------
blog

Sounds kinky!!! Actually the day of his big breakthrough stage, I said something like "he sure took plenty of steroids last night with his Wheaties!!!" Right now it looks like that was true even thought I was joking.

I agree with others, hopefully it is explainable or he took an allowable injection in his hip joint that caused a false positive. We don't need more cheaters, there are enough already.

---

---

How is this a shock/surprise to anyone?

As far as I am concerned, they are all dopes.

Are you accusing me!

[reply]Are you accusing me![/reply]

I know for a fact you tested positive for a high level of estrogen!

---

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

oh fuck man

this is not good news for cycling

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...i?post=908468#908468

Quote from MarcK: "I think Floyd was clean and I think that's why his performance varied so much. I also think that's why you didn't see any rouleurs leading the high mountain passes this year."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight (shaking my head)

Perhaps the corticosteroid shots he was cleared for, to recieve b/c of his hip isssues may affect that ratio...

Also Tyler will have someone who's allowed to race with him.

I can't help but think now that the enormous amount of water Floyd took onboard on that stage wasn't about careful hydration. It was about trying to flush the drug out of his system before the end of the race.

Take a dose of a size that gives you the grunt to break away early in the day, then hope it breaks down, and you can flush out what's left before the end of the day...

Pereiro was screwed, if this was caused by doping. The greatest moment of his career snatched away from him.

I picked Floyd to win before the Basso/Ullrich DQs. I was rooting for Pereiro after he ended up with the yellow jersey- I always root for the underdog. I was happy for Landis when he made that great comeback. Now I am unsure how I feel about him.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

true. But what if Ironman started doing dope testing at their events? I'm sure we'd see some folks testing positive for that stuff...

now I think all of you should have to write an apology letter to PAULO !!! It should include the phrase "you were right and I was wrong."

---

http://j-motrilife.blogspot.com/

Oh.....Sh!TTTTT

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

check out the headline on Drudge:

"Tour de Dope"

www.drudgereport.com

Damn, and I just found a cool wallpaper of him. Time to change it again!

---

---------------------------
"This wheel definitely beat the 808 in this test, no question, and I do commend Hed on producing a really fast wheel...the wheel is fast, I am not disputing that." - joshatzipp on the Stinger 9
My Website
HEDmafia.com

ugggggh....say it ain't so...stage 17 was so fun to watch!

 

can someone explain to me the benefits of taking whatever landis took?

I am a noob to this stuff

in the Maratona delle Dolomiti in 2003, 80% of the riders were found to be in possession of some doping substance, after a anti-doping raid was conducted by the Guardia di Finanza and the Carabinieri. Could athletes dope without knowing about it?

lol!

OWNED!

---

___________________________________________________
Team Medique Powered by Silber Investments

Now we know why he needed all the water.....the famous 70(?) bidons are explained...these and the miracle recovery!!!

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_______________________________
The "Pocket Hercules" - jgrat

Technique sets the upper limit to where your fitness will take you...

testosterone

...the absence of which explains why the French can't win.

Umm...Ironman does test the pros. Remember Nina Kraft at Kona?

As perspective is relative, it is from the view point of a cycling fan and amateur athlete who followed Le Tour from Prologue to Finale. Perspective indeed - it is ST and this is the Triathlete's Forum.

Perhaps the corticosteroid shots he was cleared for, to recieve b/c of his hip isssues may affect that ratio...

Honestly I hope this is the case. I really like Floyd and his performance. This news really dissapoints me.

He was truly a breath of fresh air at this years tour, by both his personality and his performance.

Who knows? The world of science does not know everything. Perhaps his freaky physiology and psychology caused these "unusually high" testosterone levels. Human physiology IS quite miraculous. (This, coming from a very big cynic).

I was praying that Landis would NOT get caught. His attitude and results have inspired me.

Pereiro was screwed, if this was caused by doping. The greatest moment of his career snatched away from him.

Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught.

Don't be so naive.

Of course he tested positive for high levels of testosterone.

Anyone who watched stage 17 can plainly see that the man has balls the size of watermelons.

The cause of his hip problem was lack of blood flow due to poor healing of a fractured femur. For treatment, I believe he received a cortisone shot prior to the tour, which *is* a steroid, but it's not testosterone. Not the same thing.

Not really talking about the pro's, more about the elites and top AGers as well. I swear to god some of those AGers trying to Kona are on something...

They DO test at Ironman races. Unfortunately, it only typically is the top finishers (usually 3 pro places I believe).

...and they should do more testing outside of races, and those results made public. Every time.

---

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

<<That blows for him! I will wait until the B sample comes back before I form an opinion. My gut says he is innocent (as is Hamilton).>>

Now let's not flame him for this comment. It's easy to be uninformed when you go to bed early because the tooth fairy, easter bunny, Santa, Great Pumpkin, ect. might be coming!

I'm very cynical in this area generally, but consider this:

testosterone is a stress-response hormone.

it can spike in odd ways as a result of stress (the two forms need not, I think, spike equally). Stress like: dehydration/bonk; a huge physical effort; an orgasmic experience; certain psychological states.

consider also that if Landis missed a corticosteroid injection his testosterone might spike to compensate. (Not a normal response, but how many normal responses to anyone would one expect to get in the Tour?)

I hope this isn't proof of cheating, though I accept that it probably is. But I think this could get whole lot more convoluted

---

Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

I thought cortisol was the "stress hormone." Never heard testosterone refered to as a stress hormone. Also, I thought testosterone levels declined as a result of chronic stress, which is why athletes supplement it.

Can anyone name a French rider suspected of doping?

Disclaimer: This comment is not intended to offend the French people or the French nation as a whole.

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught.

Don't be so naive. "

Lets see..... He didn't test positive. He didn't do anything superhuman. He did ride a great time trial, about 1 and 1/2 minutes slower than Landis.

If you would check your facts and research, he has done very good time trials, and has won a race after riding one of them.

Don't be so ..... O'Reillyish.

If you are implying that not being tested positive does not imply he was not doping, then you are saying that Lance never testing positive is no defense against doping accusations against him. Is this what you are saying?

BTW, I think all these guys should be allowed to dope. If they want to kill themselves for my enjoyment, more power to them.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Could athletes dope without knowing about it?

No. That excuse has been tried many times. It was a joke then and is a joke now. Landis, and all the others knew exactly what they were doing.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

[reply]Can anyone name a French rider suspected of doping?

[i]Disclaimer: [/i][i]This comment is not intended to offend the French people or the French nation as a whole.[/i][/reply]

Don't you know the peloton is at two speeds, with the poor French being the slow, clean ones? Of course that whole doping thing involving French riders from Cofidis and the recent pot belge one involving French riders is all just a myth.

---

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

I am beyond words. This is devastating to the US, the Tour and to the sport of cycling. I can only hope that it is not true. I can not understand why he would take a chance on losing everything just to win. A loss would have been much less embarrassing and damaging. I am just sick over this.

---

http://www.triontherunfitness.com
http://www.triontherun.com
http://www.ontheruntx.com

http://www.jatox.com/abstracts/2000...-vandekerk.html

Evaluation of Testosterone/Epitestosterone Ratio Influential Factors as Determined in Doping Analysis
D.H. van de Kerkhof1, D. de Boer1,2, J.H.H. Thijssen1,3, and R.A.A. Maes1
1Utrecht Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences (UIPS), Department of Human Toxicology, University of Utrecht, Sorbonnelaan 16, 3584 CA Utrecht, The Netherlands; 2Instituto Nacional do Desporto, Laboratório de Análises de Dopagem e Bioquímica, Av. Prof. Egas Moniz (Estádio Universitário), 1600 Lisboa, Portugal; and 3Department of Endocrinology, Academisch Ziekenhuis Utrecht, Heidelberglaan 100, P.O. Box 8550, 3508 GA Utrecht, The Netherlands

The ratio of the concentration of testosterone glucuronide to the concentration of epitestosterone glucuronide (T/E ratio) as determined in uri ne is the most frequently used method to prove testosterone abuse by athletes. A T/E ratio higher than 6 has been considered as proof of abuse in the past; however, cases of naturally occurring higher T/E ratios have been described. Since the introduction of the T/E ratio in doping analysis, the parameters that may or may not influence the T/E ratio, possibly leading to false-positive results, have been debated. To achieve more insight on the influencing circumstances, an overview is given to obtain an objective view on the merits of the urinary T/E ratio. Relevant analytical aspects of the T/E ratio, potential parameters of endogenous and exogenous origins, as well as some alternative methods to determine testosterone abuse, such as the urinary testosterone/luteinizing hormone ratio, gas chromatography- combustion-isotope-ratio mass spectrometry, hair analysis, and high-performance liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry, are discussed.

Correct title for the thread: Phonak confirms Floyd has A sample with an elevated ratio.



But that's so scientific, and isn't anywhere as exciting as (at this point) erroneously jumping to the conclusion: "Landis Positive".

Lets see..... He didn't test positive. He didn't do anything superhuman. He did ride a great time trial, about 1 and 1/2 minutes slower than Landis.

If you would check your facts and research, he has done very good time trials, and has won a race after riding one of them.

If you are implying that not being tested positive does not imply he was not doping, then you are saying that Lance never testing positive is no defense against doping accusations against him. Is this what you are saying?

Actually, look at his results. His TT WAS a performance of a LIFETIME. Not concrete evidence of doping, but it does make one wonder...


BTW, I think all these guys should be allowed to dope. If they want to kill themselves for my enjoyment, more power to them.


I sort of agree with you here (not the killing part). Where were you to back me up the other day?

explain your two posts, on one you cannot believe Landis is a dope, and on the other you spare nothing to throw Pereiro under the bus???

ahh of course an american hero can do no wrong... it is all the French's fault, I call for an immediate boycot.....

This is a damn shame if it holds up through the B sample.

It was an amazing story and I pulled for the guy through the final stage.

Professional cycling better figure out how to deal with its drug problem. Sound like every major cyclist out there is on something. Either clean it up or legalize it....

Could athletes dope without knowing about it?

No. That excuse has been tried many times. It was a joke then and is a joke now. Landis, and all the others knew exactly what they were doing.

Of course they can dope without knowing it! I highly doubt that Floyd knows every chemical that is in the IV's that they give him. This goes along with my argument from the other day that these guy are being trained just like thoroughbreds.

If the authorities want to be totally pure to stop all doping, IV's will have to be removed from use.

Look at the east Germans in the 70s.

I didn't make up the title, just cut and paste from cyclingnews, a pretty respected and knowledgable publication.

But, that asside. Dude, he tested postitive.

Well, aren't you a friendly guy!

Actually, I am not uninformed. I am an MD and have studied the Hamilton case extensively. In Athens, Tyler’s blood sample was mistyped. His test results from the Games are also biologically impossible. The only reasonable possible explanations are: technical error, critical/terminal illness or genetic anomaly. Fouthermore, examination of Athens HBTT data run on other athletes during the Games, revealed that a significant number of other tests showed the same kind of results.

Life is way to fun to be so cynical!

explain your two posts, on one you cannot believe Landis is a dope, and on the other you spare nothing to throw Pereiro under the bus???

I NEVER said that I do not believe Landis is a dope (I said I hoped that he would not get caught). Read my posts. Then you will understand what I think. I think that they ALL use. I just don't think that Pereiro was robbed.

ahh of course an american hero can do no wrong... it is all the French's fault, I call for an immediate boycot.....

Please. I'm Canadian. Get real.

[reply][reply]
Correct title for the thread: Phonak confirms Floyd has A sample with an elevated ratio.



But that's so scientific, and isn't anywhere as exciting as (at this point) erroneously jumping to the conclusion: "Landis Positive". [/reply]


I didn't make up the title, just cut and paste from cyclingnews, a pretty respected and knowledgable publication.

But, that asside. Dude, he tested postitive.[/reply]

Technically he did not as the B sample has not confirmed the A sample. It's in the rules.

---

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

My gut says he is innocent (as is Hamilton).

I almost spit up my coffee when I read this. Are you serious?

I really hope you are being sarcastic because no one could really be that naive.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Here's a question - is it reasonable to expect a "normal" physiological result from someone at the end of that kind of exceptional performance, even if they're clean? How much research ahs been done on the physiology of riders after that kind of effort?

My 13 year old kid will race at the National Championship here in Mexico in a few days. With all the doping scandals going on, he is worried that maybe some of the top kids are doping and was asking me to send a letter to the President of our State association to propose that all the top kids at the nationals be tested. He is now suspicious of unexpected performances of some kids in past races. This is without knowing the lastest news about Landis.

I can imagine that those that do not have kids are only thinking about this doping scandals in an adult scenario. I am really worried about the effects of this generalized cheating by the top athletes on our next generation. These doping scandals have already many adult cyclists confused (just read the ST related threads) so you can imagine what are the younger ciclysts and triahtletes thinking.

I hope Landis did not dope, but if he did, he deserves to be banned for life... just for setting a bad example leading people (adults and children) to think that only cheaters can win such a race.

Sergio

---

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

it can spike in odd ways as a result of stress (the two forms need not, I think, spike equally). Stress like: dehydration/bonk; a huge physical effort; an orgasmic experience; certain psychological states.

Then why wouldn't anyone else's spike? I'm sure that despite the pro-Landis crowds belief of a superhuman effort, there were others in the Tour that dehyrdated, gave a huge physical effort or were in certain psychological states.

consider also that if Landis missed a corticosteroid injection his testosterone might spike to compensate.

Or, consider that he cheated and got caught. That seems like the best and only explanation that makes any sense.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Can anyone name a French rider suspected of doping?

I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to blame the French.

It's time to let go of the French bashing and just accept that sometimes Americans cheat and sometimes they only have themselves to blame.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

When is everyone going to realize that EVERYONE dopes in cycling? A small testosterone patch on the nut'sac (yes, that's French) while your sleeping does wonders for recovery. If you take it off early enough, your levels return to normal before the test at the end of the stage. I guess his trainers forgot to yank his off early enough.

Don't believe me, ask any pro weightlifter, bodybuilder, cyclist, marathon runner, soccer player, tennis player, etc. - that is willing to talk openly.

It's the impact of the cortico on the testosterone levels that interests me.

I've been a lifelong taker of corticosteroids (not through choice), and they can do some odd things to your body.

---

Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

[reply]I can't help but think now that the enormous amount of water Floyd took onboard on that stage wasn't about careful hydration. It was about trying to flush the drug out of his system before the end of the race.

Take a dose of a size that gives you the grunt to break away early in the day, then hope it breaks down, and you can flush out what's left before the end of the day...[/reply]

!

Axel

Ummmm... Have you considered chimerism?

"Actually, look at his results. His TT WAS a performance of a LIFETIME. Not concrete evidence of doping, but it does make one wonder... "

Now that is lame. Not logical either.

Do a little research maybe? Who won the Tour de Romandie prolouge in 2005? Who was 4th in the TT in the 2003 Tour de Suisse, only 1:06 behind Bradly McGee the winner of that stage?

Pereiro is not a nobody. He has results. You just don't want a few facts to smack your little theory around.

He has two 10ths and it looks like no a 1st at the TdF. He has a stage win in the TdF. He was 7th overal at the 2005 TdR, where he won that prolouge and 3rd overall in the above mentioned TdS. He has other wins and podiums.

Oh, he was also the rider that did all the work last year on a stage so Hincappie could sprint around him for the win. (Thankfully, not all riders are asses- See Jens Voigt.) Seems like this is the second time he has been screwed by an American, should the Landis test hold up.

Now, try not to be so lame.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

"A small testosterone patch on the nut'sac (yes, that's French) while your sleeping does wonders for recovery."

And for Lance.....

Sprry it was just hanging there waiting for aomebody to say it. Nuts, sorry about that choice of words. Oops, apologies again.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

[reply]My 13 year old kid will race at the National Championship here in Mexico in a few days. With all the doping scandals going on, he is worried that maybe some of the top kids are doping and was asking me to send a letter to the President of our State association to propose that all the top kids at the nationals be tested. He is now suspicious of unexpected performances of some kids in past races. This is without knowing the lastest news about Landis.

I can imagine that those that do not have kids are only thinking about this doping scandals in an adult scenario. I am really worried about the effects of this generalized cheating by the top athletes on our next generation. These doping scandals have already many adult cyclists confused (just read the ST related threads) so you can imagine what are the younger ciclysts and triahtletes thinking.

I hope Landis did not dope, but if he did, he deserves to be banned for life... just for setting a bad example leading people (adults and children) to think that only cheaters can win such a race.

Sergio[/reply]


If my kid EVER will want to race in a cycle race i will have to say no. I believe in letting kids choose their own way, but cycling as a competitive sport... i will work against that!

I´m dead serious with that!

What if he later becomes good? Will he be able to withstand the temptations or dig his own grave like the rest of them? I would rather not risk that...

Axel

unlike running, you mean?

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Josef
-------
blog

Ummmm... Have you considered chimerism?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Funny I haven't heard much about it lately.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

consider also that if Landis missed a corticosteroid injection his testosterone might spike to compensate.

Or, consider that he cheated and got caught. That seems like the best and only explanation that makes any sense.

**************

Exactly. Occam's Razor for Landis & Hamilton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor.

Interesting that so many people apply faith-based reasoning to sports. I don't.

I still like Floyd, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich, and PANTANI -- I wish folks would just wake up from their faith-based dream world and admit that pro cycling is a dope-based organization. Same for long-distance running/track and most professional sports. Unless we take away the financial incentives (and go back to amateur events only, no cash/sponsorship allowed) there will be cheating.

Doesn't science stink sometimes? Drugs.. internet... computers... 24/7 work world... oh well, no going back now. Maybe Landis' parents had the right idea all along. Don't be surprised if Landis goes back to that way of life.

 

<<Actually, I am not uninformed. I am an MD and have studied the Hamilton case extensively.>>

Well....then.....I'll reserve comment until the Operation Puerto evidence about his entire doping program comes to a head.

That is completely ridiculous. First of all, steroids don't work that way. It's not like you can take some today and be superman tomorrow. Steroids are anabolic and they help you build muscle more quickly than natural process would allow. It takes weeks to months to get significant results from steroids. Second, You can't "flush" them out...I don't care how much water you drink. Just like any chemical compound, every steroid has a specific half-life and degrades out of your system at a specific rate...some much faster than others.



I'm not defending Landis or anyone who dopes, but let's at least try to stick with facts.

I'm well aware of his results. And he certainly deserved his second place podium spot. Now, compare his known TT ability with many others that he beat in that final TT. Read Pereiros own statements about his TTing ability.

I'm quite certain that many here would agree with me.

I just think that it is foolish to say that Pereiro was robbed. But, I believe that most of them are not clean.

Do you think that Pereiro is clean?

"Now, try not to be so lame"

Good one. Personal insult does not add credibility to your statements.

funny: the phonak team web site has "crashed" or should I say it failed the test.

http://www.phonak-cycling.ch/index.php?id=2&L=1

" Look at his results in the previous time trial in the SAME RACE. I'd say 50/50 he got some kind of illicit boost. "

Who says he was going full out? Most dometiques go easy to save their strength. Other go easy to lose time so they will later be allowed to go away on a break. Laurent Jalabert used to drop 20 minutes on stages before stages he wanted to attack for mountain points. However, Pereiro can produce exceptional results when asked. He has done TTs as good as he did in the last one of TdF2006. That is shown by my examples.

A few funnies from Huffington Post comments:

Viva la drugs!!*


*may cause dizziness, nausea and a loss of championship.

-----

Testosterone: Puts the MEN in MENnonite.

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All it means is Landis' got two instead of one, like Lance.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

[reply]unlike running, you mean?[/reply]

Yes. While i´m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel

[reply][.reply]unlike running, you mean?[./reply]

Yes. While i�m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel[/reply]
---
Gotcha. Hence the 'Laufladen', not the 'Radladen' :-)

---

Josef
-------
blog

 

"Now, compare his known TT ability with many others that he beat in that final TT."

I did. I showed results. Facts. You just have "opinion." Look up his results where he finished 1:06 down on Bradly Mcgee on a 33K TT. He is not the best, but he is good. Research.

"Now, try not to be so lame"

Good one. Personal insult does not add credibility to your statements. "

You called me naive. Don't start making personal remarks if you do not want them back. To expect not for that to happen is... naive.

Again, you got anything but opinon? Anything to base an argument on? I've showed you consistent results that would suggest he can TT within 1:30 of the winner. I've shown where he can win TTs and stages. You got anything?

*crickets*

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests. (this from the cycling news article)

Does the UCI follow the World Anti-Doping Agency guidelines?

yup...it is possible that he cheated and got caught.

It is also possible that he didn't, and the funny fact that while people are cynical enough of athletes, they don't hold the same standards to physicians, scientists, etc. (who have made some incremental blunders over time themselves).

The fact people think there is "only" one explanation possible for any given event (especially one based on very limited "evidence") just displays the degradation of intellect in society. It is truly sad....

---

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

You called me naive. Don't start making personal remarks if you do not want them back. To expect not for that to happen is... naive.

Fair enough. Tit for tat, I guess.

I still maintain that anyone who thinks that Pereire is definitely clean and was robbed, is being naive.

I do not, however, think that I am lame. Whatever.

Again, you got anything but opinon? Anything to base an argument on? I've showed you consistent results that would suggest he can TT within 1:30 of the winner. I've shown where he can win TTs and stages. You got anything?

I'm not quite sure why you are so excited to argue with me. I suppose emotions are running high, today. I agree that he is a strong athlete, and have told you that I am aware of his performances. I do not need to post times. You are doing that for me.

I also said that he deserves the second place that he earned by his amazing time trial.

I also said that it was the TT of his life. PEREIRO said so. That is a fact. Even he said (paraphrase) "In a good TT for me, I am still 2 min back from the leader".

Have a great day.

that takes away his personal responsibility. if he doesn't know what is in there, he should be asking.

"I'm not quite sure why you are so excited to argue with me."

Your post in response to me:

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

That is just assinine. You are pulling tings out of your ass and implying somebody you have no proof of doping is indeed doping. You deserve to be argued with, just from a logic point of view.

-----

Now you post:

"I do not need to post times. You are doing that for me. "

and

"I also said that it was the TT of his life. PEREIRO said so. That is a fact."

Have you ever taken logic? Have you gone to college?

I did post times, but they did not support your statement. You are implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life, and thus was doping. I showed that he did not have the TT of his life. The times I showed prove he can have TTs where he wins or places very high, and comes close to tremendous specialists- Bradly McGee. His statement was surely a modest account given to the press- he is a humble guy. What was he supposed to say, "I've done better?"

The guy has results comparable to his TdF TT.

----

"I still maintain that anyone who thinks that Pereire is definitely clean and was robbed, is being naive. "

No, what you seem to be saying is anybody that does not agree with all your opinions is naive. I think somebody not agreeing with your statements and facts would be a person who is logical.

----

"I do not, however, think that I am lame. Whatever."

There you go again with opinion again.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

that takes away his personal responsibility. if he doesn't know what is in there, he should be asking.

And I would maintain that he has to trust his doctors and coaches. It is a part of his job.

It is also my opinion that Floyd is not the only guilty party in this scandal.

[reply]Crap.

Stage 17 was a super-human effort, though. I can imagine the rationalization that went on.

What a damn shame.[/reply]
I asked this on other thread but will ask here.
super-human effort????

So is that how it works you raise your testosterone one day(previous tests from what others are saying were okay other days just this day)
and bam it's like popeye popping a can of spinach and hes super strong all of a sudden...

I wouldn't think so maybe pcp,crack or meth but probably would blow a heart valve afterwards or something...

So can someone get that kind of boost that quick and with testosterone alone if it indeed proves to be true...

He would be crazy to just "trust his doctors and coaches" in a sport that has this many issues with doping as cycling. As an elite athlete, if he's not asking, he should be.

I do agree that he is not the only guilty party but he does own primary responsibility.

"Have you considered chimerism?"

Yeah, why hasn't someone started a charity for chimeras yet? Chimeras need love too.

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

That is just assinine. You are pulling tings out of your ass and implying somebody you have no proof of doping is indeed doping. You deserve to be argued with, just from a logic point of view.

I suppose that in my above post I had too much of the sarcasm button on for a logical argument. As I said, emotions are high this morning.

How about this: I do not know that Pereiro is necessarily doped. I also do not know that he is NOT doped, just because he has not tested positive.

I know that it is not exactly the same, but let's use Ullrich as an example. Jan has never tested positive for an ergogenic aid, yet there are allegations that he has doped. This shows that it possible for someone to be guilty of doping, without testing positive - if the allegations against Ullrich are true, that is.

Have you ever taken logic? Have you gone to college?

I am actually just about to defend my PhD in ~4 weeks. In Muscle Physiology, specializing in muscle fatigue.

I did post times, but they did not support your statement. You are implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life, and thus was doping.

Not true. I was implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life. That is all.

However, people who get caught doping, do typically get caught doing so after the performances of a lifetime (ie. Nina, Tyler, David Millar, etc.). I agree that it is not a causal relationship, but it is suggestive of some sort of interaction.

It IS my opinion that he is not necessarily clean because he has not tested positive.

The guy has results comparable to his TdF TT.

True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest.

No, what you seem to be saying is anybody that does not agree with all your opinions is naive. I think somebody not agreeing with your statements and facts would be a person who is logical.


There you go again with opinion again.

Fair enough. I have my opinions. You have yours. That is was these forums are all about, in my opinion. Sharing opinions.

...And wasting time when we are supposed to be doing something else.

<<So can someone get that kind of boost that quick and with testosterone alone if it indeed proves to be true...>>

It's not like he was putting out superhuman numbers. 130k @ ~38k/hr is less than a 4 hour breakaway. I believe his avg power over this period was only 280 (I say only as I've put out ~250 over 4 hours before....and I'm sure many on this forum could do the same). His power up the Joux Plane was 373watts....or between 25 and 50 watts below his FT depending on who you ask.

The "miracle" of the effort is that he did it the day after a bonk. Anyone that has bonked hard knows you don't feel like a 130k breakaway in the mountains of the tour the next day. Testosteronethe night before would certainly give a boost in the recovery needed to make it happen.

depends on what caused the bonk..
I've had many a bad day then woke up next morning thinking oh go for a light spin for 30 minutes and bam ended up going 4 or 5 hours and having a great day usually during a 2 week camp..
Same thing bikeing and running...
Serious dehydration I guess can linger with you a few days maybe I guess for me it does but I've never had a saline iv so maybe that makes a difference.
Bonk from calories you can come back next day I'd think.. I've bonked big time on bike in hawaii struggling last 20 miles or so then with a little coke
and a couple extra minutes rest went out and had a good run...
Of course I'm not even close to the levels these guys are and probably just the fear of an iv or ending up crawling probably don't push myself that far to begin with..So I don't know just makes me curious how much boost they would really get...
Seems anytime someone does something others thought was impossible then they've got to be taking
something...

guess when a car falls on a kid and the father or mother musters up the strength to lift the car(if those storie's are true) Well I guess they were probably doping....

"Not true. I was implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life. That is all. "

What you posted was:

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

You were implying he was doping because he rode the best TT of his life. That is not a logical, nor correct statement. Saying he rode the TT of his life can be debated as well, which I showed by example.

----

"True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest. "

See, I even have you backpedallig on your statements.

----

"How about this: I do not know that Pereiro is necessarily doped. I also do not know that he is NOT doped, just because he has not tested positive. "

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that he is NOT a child molestor just because he has not been caught.

Does that sound allright?

----

"I am actually just about to defend my PhD in ~4 weeks."

I really hope you have documentation to back your dissertation up. You certainly did not bring any to the table here.

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

erm I though Drea was a woman (short for Andrea I think).

I will stick to evidence when it comes to deciding who has doped or not, otherwise you end up with a witch hunt which does nobody any good at all.

I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. I used to play alot of beach volleyball, and remember a couple of times where I bonked badly on Saturday (the prelim rounds), and then recovered and felt fantastic on Sunday. It is amazing what some good food, rehydrating, and a good nights sleep can do ;-)

---

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

<< I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. >>

How about the type of bonk that causes you to basically lose the biggest stage race in the world? Do you think if he had something in the tank, he saved it?

[reply]<< I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. >>

How about the type of bonk that causes you to basically lose the biggest stage race in the world? Do you think if he had something in the tank, he saved it?[/reply]

It has nothing to do with saving anything. It is about what your body is capable on a certain day in reaction to various things like weather, hydration, nutrition, etc. I think everyone on this forum has experienced a day when they had nothing and then were great the next day.

---

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

You were implying he was doping because he rode the best TT of his life. That is not a logical, nor correct statement. Saying he rode the TT of his life can be debated as well, which I showed by example.

I have already agreed with you regarding the sarcastic nature of my original post. In subsequent posts I became more careful, specific and literal in what I was saying.

In a subsequent post, I also demonstrated an example which may allow us to logically question best performances by athletes in sports where doping is abundant (edited). Specifically: "However, people who get caught doping, do typically get caught doing so after the performances of a lifetime (ie. Nina, Tyler, David Millar, etc.). I agree that it is not a causal relationship, but it is suggestive of some sort of interaction. "

I am not suggesting that we question each winning performance. However, it is quite clear that there is a large amount of doping in pro cycling. And where there are outstanding performances, there are outstanding measures to get there (which definitely includes intense training, good basic health, good psychology at the very least). As has been proven recently, many of the outstanding athletes have been shown that dope is frequently used as well.

Perhaps you do not think that doping as pervasive in pro cycling as I do. I asked you earlier: Do you believe that Pereiro is likely clean?

"True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest. "

See, I even have you backpedallig on your statements.


Call it backpedalling if you will. I call it agreement. I merely agreed with your statement. All along, I have maintained that this is his best TT ever, which Pereiro himself supports.

You have shown evidence that he is a top contender. I agree. You have shown evidence that in the past he has even had amazing TT abilities. I agree.

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that he is NOT a child molestor just because he has not been caught.

Does that sound allright?

True. You do not know that I am not a child molestor just because I have not been caught. However, I do not participate in a profession that is ridalled with child molestation. Nor do I participate in a profession where my success may be dependent on whether or not I molest a child. So, for me being a child molestor, there is not even really any suggestive correlation.

Also, I am a she, not a he.

I really hope you have documentation to back your dissertation up.

I can guarantee to you that I do.

You certainly did not bring any to the table here.

As I said previously. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Cheers.

So as an MD do you know anything about the use of codenames or fax machines? :-)

American slowtwitchers are failing to ask the most crucial question arising out of this PED controversy:

If Landis is officially DQ'd, Will Bobke lose his OLN Yellow Jersey?

Although I'm not naive enough to believe this will actually pan out and exonerate Landis, you have to remember that they measured a [b]ratio[/b] of test to epitest. ESPN radio is reporting that his test levels were actually below normal, and his epi was at rock bottom. Also, it's a urine test, and prone to several sources of error that blood test aren't. So sit back, relax, let the facts come in, the rumors be squashed, etc.

erm I though Drea was a woman (short for Andrea I think).

Right you are! :-)

I will stick to evidence when it comes to deciding who has doped or not, otherwise you end up with a witch hunt which does nobody any good at all.

Actually, I agree. I think that I may have said this before - I don't decide with certainty that any cyclists have doped or that they haven't. But I do keep in mind that the sport of pro cycling is really dirty.

Not testing positive is obviously not a definite indication of guilt. However, especially in the case of pro cycling it is not a definite indication of innocence (ie. Ullrich and Basso).

Innocent until proven guilty?

Because B samples usually are not tested and when they get a positive A sample, they totally re-ramp up the testing process to be absolutly damn certain they get it right with the B sample.

Funny you mention this. Back in 2001, the day after the Florida State 40K Time Trial, I had blood work done. It showed that I had elevated liver enzymes and low magnesium. I got blood work done again a month later and everything was back to normal levels. My doctor told me when muscle breaks down, such as after very hard efforts, it can make your liver enzymes go up. So, maybe it is possible that Floyd just whacked his system out of balance with his super-human effort in Stage 17 and tested positive. I'm hoping that is the case.

I too wonder how much research has been done in this kind of scenario.

~ AB ~

Classic!

Innocent until proven guilty?

Sadly, I don't think that is the general consesus with cycling.

Personally I just like to think: "I hope that he is clean, or does not test positive"

Perhaps this makes me too cynical, but it is the way that I think.

As I have said before, I appreciate the individual athletes and events like the TDF regardless of this cynical mindset. Even though there is a lot of doping - there are still the tactics, and the bold moves, and the amazing performances. Even dudes that are doped to the gills are working their hearts out on those big climbs in the Alps. I don't know who they are or aren't, so I would prefer to sit back and enjoy!

quite honestly I am not surprised at all. It makes me mad because I would like to give pro sports a chance but know that with making the decision to make it pro comes the decision to dope. Not initially but eventually.

Look at Landis, how can he be down one day and have such a great performance the next? It could be tactics and in order for the pelaton to let him go on that mountainous stage he had to be down in the classification by some time. But why would he do that in the first place when he knows that he can put on such a strong performance? It could be tactics but at the same time it would be silly to gamble like that. How come he can ride away from group of people? Something doesn't add up. It's not like he showed up for the local sunday morning ride. It's not like he is the lightest guy in the group either.


It's for this reason that I barely watch the TDF. I don't support such a circus that year after year is in the spotlight for doping scandals without doing anything abou it. In my opinion, Pro sports would become much more meaningful if a doper caught of using PED receives a LIFETIME ban from ALL pro sports. Until that becomes the norm we will always face doping scandals.


Now if you take a minute and think about Mr. Armstrong. Yes, he didn't get caught and it isn't fair to question his performances. But pro cycling consists of a group of athletes and all those athletes are physiological, genetic exceptions to start with. Now you have a LA that crushes the entire competition, year after year when his competitors are getting caught of using PEDs. I'm not saying that those athletes are not working their asses of and train hard, but I clearly doubt that those results are being done without the assistance of PEDs. I would say that Lance Armstrong has a pretty strong ego and if it were up to him he would have worn yellow to 10 TDF victories. Why would he start and risk not winning during his 7th TDF when he was already more victorious than any other TDF rider with 6 consecutive wins? He is one cocky, arrangant, successful guy. It doesn't make sense to me that he stopped at that point in time. Could it be that his medical staff advised him not to participate? Did he and his team know more than others?


Again, I'm the first to admit that it isn't fair to question once performance when nothing indicates a positive drug test result. But given all the circumstances nothing suprises me anymore. Sad but unfortunatley true...

---

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

The testoserone threshold for PED test is 4 x 1, normal is 1 x 1, and hard training tends to make one have LOWER results.

So, unfortunately, I doubt it.

Because his contract with Discovery called for him to race the TdF again, that's why.

[reply][.reply][..reply]unlike running, you mean?[../reply]

Yes. While i�m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel[./reply]
---
Gotcha. Hence the 'Laufladen', not the 'Radladen' :-)[/reply]

Yup! :-)

Axel

What bothers me the most about this, despite the obvious, is why the hell did Phonak sell him out? Yeah, there were rumors, there was speculation. But why would the team issue the press release before testing the B sample? They have a built in excuse for missing the races and they're supposed to have the B sample in a week or so. I don't get it.

---

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Very good point. There MUST be more to all of this than just the "A" sample.

~ AB ~

Let me help you:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

---

adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

So at this point why haven't we seen a press release or something from the Landis camp stating that Floyd absolutely did not take PED's? I would think they would want to start the public relations campaign sooner rather than later.

---

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

because it does not make sense to start everything when the B sample hasn't been analyzed yet.

Of course he tested positive for high levels of testosterone.

Anyone who watched stage 17 can plainly see that the man has balls the size of watermelons.

*********

Yes, and I'm sure Pantani, Ullrich, Basso, and Virenque had big balls too.

Let's make AC/DC the official Rock Group for the 2006 Tour DAY France:

"Landis has big balls
And they're such big balls
Dirty big balls
And Lance has a big ball
And Basso's got big balls
But the Peloton has got the biggest balls of them all

And their balls are always bouncing
The road is always full
And everybody attacks and attacks again
If your name is on the start list
No one can take you faster
Everybody says we've got
Great balls of fire

CHORUS

Some balls are held for charity
And some for fancy crits
But when they're held for the tour DAY france
They're the balls that I like best
Their balls are always bouncing in the sprints
To the left and to the right
It's my belief that my big balls
Should be injected with testoserone every night!"

Yeah I think Floyd rides with a set of these under his seat too to let everyone know his balls are big and not to fck with him.

---

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

And you don't want to race bikes professionally, it literally makes your balls shrink....

Just realize that this is actually funny in more than one way.

---

adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

[reply]
And Lance has big ball
[/reply]

Crude and obvious, I know, but in the interests of accuracy...

"Also, I am a she, not a he. "

Sorry, let me change that:

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that she is NOT a child molestor just because she has not been caught.

And if you are suggesting that women are not child molestors, that owuld be incorrect.

"However, I do not participate in a profession that is ridalled with child molestation."

You are a human being. The human race is riddled with child molestors. Just because they are not all caught doesn't mean they are not there, according to your logic. And, of course, we seem to be catching a bunch of them.

"'You certainly did not bring any to the table here.'

As I said previously. You have your opinion, and I have mine. "

I did not bring opinion to the argument, I brought specific examples and used those to argue, which you did not do. You argued opinion and your feelings. I really hope you did not do that on your dissertation.

You still do not even know my opinion on the subject.

"Cheers"

---

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

This is a disciplinary procedure, not the courts - quote from cyclingnews about Ullrich:

---------------------------------------

Prof. Gerhard Walter, head of the disciplinary committee of the Swiss Olympic Committee, is waiting for the investigation material from the Spanish police and Operation Puerto concerning Jan Ullrich, who rides with a Swiss license.

Walter told Bild that if charges are raised against Ullrich, "it can all go very quickly. I would try to have the process finished within three to four weeks."

Ullrich claims that there are no grounds for a process, and that his guilt must first be proven. "That is nonsense," Walter said in Bild. "The presumption of innocence applies for those in normal courts. But we are dealing with a disciplinary procedure. The WADA code applies, and the athlete must prove his case. One could draw conclusions from Ullrich's reluctance to work with us."

--------------------------------------

Vassuer, 2004.

why the hell did Phonak sell him out?

They know the truth.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Ullrich claims that there are no grounds for a process, and that his guilt must first be proven.

I think a lot of riders were hoping that line of thinking would work.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

You are a human being. The human race is riddled with child molestors. Just because they are not all caught doesn't mean they are not there, according to your logic. And, of course, we seem to be catching a bunch of them.

What is the incidence of child molestors in society? How does that compare with incidence of doping in pro cycling? I honestly don't know.

And yes, I suspect that there are many more child molestors than are caught. However, I do not associate in communties densly contained with known child molestors. A little bit OT, I think.

I did not bring opinion to the argument, I brought specific examples and used those to argue, which you did not do. You argued opinion and your feelings.

My specific examples:

- Pereiro's statements about his performances

- Best perfromances by Nina Kraft et al. = Doping

- Ullrich not testing positive, yet there is a possibility that he is guilty

I don't believe that I really presented any feelings.

I really hope you did not do that on your dissertation.

If you know anything about what is in a dissertation (and you might), you do form theories (a form of opinion) based on evidence. I have presented examples (above) that has enabled me to form an opinion or theory.

It seems as though you want to hit below the belt. I'm not sure why.


You still do not even know my opinion on the subject.

I have asked you twice if you think that Pereiro is doping - your opinion. You have chosen not to answer.

In your original post, you stated the following: "Pereiro was screwed, if this was caused by doping. The greatest moment of his career snatched away from him. " From this, I would guess that it is your opinion that Pereiro was screwed.

It seems that I upset you with my original reply to your original post, where you said that Pereiro was screwed, and then I implied with sarcasm that he is probably not clean either based on his TT, and suggested that you were naive to think so. You have suggested that my view is "assinine", that "I pull things out of my ass", that I am "lame", questionned whether I have gone to college, and questionned whether or not I would be able to defend my work, you even brought in child molestation to this conversation. I'm not sure why. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way by suggesting that your view was naive.

I don't really think that this is a constructive discussion, as neither of us seeming to be gaining anything from it.

Regardless, have a great day and Cheers :-) ... And I hope Floyd is cleared.

You have completely changed your argument over the course of the series of posts. You brought no examples to back you up, only opinions. Get a dictionary.

"My specific examples:"

"Ullrich not testing positive, yet there is a possibility that he is guilty"

That is not an example. There is a possiblility everybody is guilty. You would not know an example if it hit you in the face.

"Pereiro's statements about his performances."

His opinion, not a fact. Times, places and time differentials of his in the past, facts.

"Best perfromances by Nina Kraft et al. = Doping "

Anecdotal. You arw drawing conclusions out of the air. You say having a "Best Performance" equals doping. However, when Floyd has his "Best Performance" you say it does not imply doping. When I show you Pereiro has had performances equal to his in the TdF TT, you dismiss that and still say his performance means doping. You are trying to selectively choose arguments and opinions to suit your case and discard those that don't, even if they are identical.

Oh, and be sure to try using your sarcasm while defending what I am sure is well written dissertation. That works well for you.

My opinion? You are an idiot. That is my opinion of mine, but I think it is well backed up by you idiotic posts, lack of logic, and failure to understand what is a fact and what is not.

If you are defending a PhD, it only goes to show what a serious problem there is in the US educational system. That is only an opinion, however.

Muscle Physiology? Enjoy being a personal trainer.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Wow.

I was just trying to make some peace with you in my last post. It just goes to show how an internet forum can cause all inflection to be misconstrued.

I'm sorry that you feel that way about me. I would like to think that if we were to discuss face to face, you might form a different opinion.

I hope that our next encounter is much more amicable.

Peace.

Andrea