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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [apolack1] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]arent all politicians opportunistic? When was the last one who had a mission, a noble cause? FDR? Wilson?[/reply]



apolack1,

Sorry, I was on a club ride and missed the last 75 posts.

You're right. There once was a "great" liberal Democratic President who "authored" a "great" book titled: Profiles in Courage. These were short biographical segments of politicians who had stood up against the prevailing tide and did what was right even though it was unpopular and in some instances cost these politicians their elected office. This was the kind of courage that John F. Kennedy was talking about in this book that he authored.

I guess one couldn't say Bush has/had a mission, a noble cause because you and many others disagree with him.

Isn't it amusing, that now we have a President who is insisting on doing what he thinks is right and needs to be done for the safety and security of this nation and the rest of the free world in spite of the fact that this is unpopular for a lot of people and yet he is branded a liar and a coward and almost every other name under the sun instead of courageous. He has also claimed that he is willing to risk his Presidency by not backing down, but seeing this through. Some would say he is courageous for this. I wonder what John F. Kennedy would call him?.



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]i'll say this right now, but if wmd's are found "at the most inopportune time"(i assume you are implying just prior to elections), then something will stink to high heavens. especially if bushy's approval ratings are continuing to flag as they have been. would i be glad to know that a large number of wmd's are out of commission? yes. but if they are found in say september or october, methinks there would be something rotten in fallujah...[/reply]




mclamp6,

But why are Kerry's approval ratings flagging as well?



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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because the weapons were "destroyed" on a bunch of kurds in the north of Iraq. Other "destruction" sites were villages that harbored rebels. Also, the US army detroyed a bunch of weapons in the last few days of the last gulf war, did so very hastily, so hastily in fact that some believe it is the cause of the so-called "Gulf War Syndrome". My other guess as to where the weapons went is that they were destroyed between the 2 periods of inspections, so after when they said they had destroyed them all, but well before the second round of inspections, possibly right after 9/11, seeing the writing on the wall, but i dont believe that there was ever any evidence that on the eve of Gulf War II Iraq had WMDs. In all of these situations, the Iraqi government wouldnt be willing to inform the world about the "destruction" of the weapons, but they were in fact destroyed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Wants2rideFast] [ In reply to ]
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club ride? sure you weren't still writing jokes for those sitcoms? can't get enough of mclamp....

kerry = lesser of two evils.

shrub's actions in iraq have very little bearing on my vote. it's his rape of the environment and being corporate america's wet dream that concern me more....




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Wants2rideFast] [ In reply to ]
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"Isn't it amusing, that now we have a President who is insisting on doing what he thinks is right and needs to be done for the safety and security of this nation and the rest of the free world in spite of the fact that this is unpopular for a lot of people and yet he is branded a liar and a coward and almost every other name under the sun instead of courageous. He has also claimed that he is willing to risk his Presidency by not backing down, but seeing this through. Some would say he is courageous for this. I wonder what John F. Kennedy would call him?."

I hear people say things like this over and over, but remember, just because someone stands up for something doesnt make it a good thing, doesnt make it noble. the KKK is a very unpopular group in america, yet they go out and make their beliefs known, they dont back down, and they will risk everything for their cause. Does this make them couragous? Standing up for what you believe in doesnt make you a hero, it makes you stubborn, the nobility of your cause is what determines your hero status. Everyone loves to cheer for the underdog, but sometimes the underdog is wrong. Sometimes people are called a liar because they lie. Sometimes opinions and courses of actions are ridiculed because they are dangerous and ill advised. People many times just follow the crowds, but there is also a group of people who do things and believe in things merely because they crowd does not. To do either is to waste your gift of free will.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Fasttwitch] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][reply]
Found them today. Turn on your TV or look at any news website. It should be staring you right in your face.

Here's the link to the other article.

[url "http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323"]http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323[/url] [/reply]


No access to TV right now, but neither Google, CNN.com or CBSNews.com report any finding of WMDs at all. I've also checked the Herald Tribune, El Mundo and Bild, all European established newspapers which are not reporting any findings of WMDs today at all either. What I am reading is that a bomb containing sarin gas exploded today and that two people were treated for minor injuries.

In case you do not understand or know what WMD stands for I'll spell it for you: Weapons of Mass Destruction. Where was the mass destruction today???

As to your republican supported link... I will not belive much of what it says, the same way I would not believe much of what the left wing newspapers may say. Provide a trustworthy link.[/reply]




Fasttwitch,

The shell was not used as it was intended. It was used to make a bomb, not fired in a cannon. This fact would not make it any less of a WMD. The fact that the subversives who tried to use it as a bomb lacked the intelligence and understanding to realize that the sarin gas would not be effective in this use beause the components would not be mixed before detonation does not diminish the threat of the weapon. It only is an example of misuse of a WMD that is potentially much more dangerous if used as intended.


From an earlier post (#19) on this thread:

Oh, by the way, they have just found another of these artillary shells with sarin gas. Since these rounds have no distinguishing markings to identify them from other similar rounds that they have found, they believe there may be many more of these chemical weapons that they have just stumbled upon. These shells are constructed such that the components of the sarin gas are separated in the unexploded shell. When the round is fired, the components are mixed as the round spins from the rifling in the cannon. Upon exploding, the gas cloud is then spread over a large area. This is not the type of technology that would be available to a terrorist organization such as al-Qaeda, unless it was supplied to them by a terrorist supportive government, i.e., Iraq.

The reason this exploding shell was not a bigger incident is that the components of the sarin gas were not combined before the explosion. The round was not fired in a cannon as it was engineered to be done. This is also why some terrorist organization did not manufacture this artillary round.

These shells are for a 155 mm cannon. That is a shell that is over 6 inches in diameter. A shell this size requires a rather substantial cannon to fire it. This cannon also requires some substantial vehicle to move it. This is not the sort of weapon that is suited for terrorist purposes. Yes, it has great destructive capablility, but it is too difficult to hide, move, too labor intensive to set up, fire, dismantle and hide again before they are caught by their pursuers

Do more homework.



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [apolack1] [ In reply to ]
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apolack1,

Clearly you missed the point of Profiles In Courage, if you even read it. The causes these "courageous" politicians took up were unpopular because people failed to see the nobility of the causes at the time!



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
Last edited by: Wants2rideFast: May 17, 04 20:59
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [eastcoasttri] [ In reply to ]
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It could be any day really, but I think a day like today when "Fahrenheit 911" opens at Cannes is kind of slick.

It's also neat to see the "media" working the mass gay marriage thing, the school anniversary of school desegregation.......a significant day of news events, perfect for gauging how the "media" would treat another event that is just as important as the other two, but gets much less play. [/reply]


Dearest Mojozenmaster,

Well, since you opened this can of warms.. I feel obligated to bring balance to your viewpoints. First of all, it sounds like you're suggesting the media is "sugar coating" the issue at hand (i.e. the discovery of what might be small traces of sarin gas). Well, lets role back the calender a few weeks shall we? Let me ask you this... What do you think we would call it if we stumbled upon some digital images of our "enemies" torturing our soldiers??? Stuck? allow me to enlighten you... We would call it "TORTURE" not this "Prisoner Abuse Scandal" label that seems to be the buzzword of the past few weeks.


Secondly, I think you might learn something from watching "Fahrenheit 911" (wait a second, if we get to see it! We live in a free society but the moral authority Disney is deciding what is suitable for our eyes) I'll be the first to say that Moore goes way too far to the left for my taste... However, from what i've heard. It shows the way war rips apart families on BOTH sides of the ocean. Furthermore, apparently we don't see him as much as in his previous work.[/reply]


eastcoasttri,

I still think Zell Miller (D) had it right when he asked why his colleagues in the Senate and members of the HWA (Hand Wringers of America) were more outraged about a detainee photographed with a pair of underwear on his head than they were outraged by the brutality of an American's head rolling around without its body as well as the brutality against the 4 American civilians in Fahlujah.

I guess I just don't have my priorities straight yet.



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Wants2rideFast] [ In reply to ]
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it's called expectations. i don't feel bad for the iraqi prisoners themselves. and i feel horrible and outraged by what happened to mr. berg and the 4 independent contractors. what happened to them was much much worse than what happened to the iraqi detainees. however, i expect terrorists to act like savages and animals and to commit the most horrible atrocities known to man. i do not expect americans to treat people inhumanely--neither does the rest of the world apparently. i'd like to believe that americans are better than savages and wouldn't resort to torture and cruelty in the handling of prisoners. i'd like to believe that america would follow the rule of law(i.e. the geneva conventions). obviously, this belief is somewhat fictitious and i am being quite naive--but i still want to believe that americans will take the moral high ground and not resort to inhumane treatment of anyone.

i'm not upset on behalf of the iraqis. i am upset because those people made americans look bad/worse and made it less safe for me.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Aeromon] [ In reply to ]
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I hate Bush too. I just think that the pure venom dripping from a lot of people on this Iraq thing goes deeper then going against the war.

If it helps I am not voting for Bush.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Interesting Poll [ In reply to ]
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Appears that our cause continues to be worthwhile and noble.

Poll: Most Iraqis believe Saddam guilty of murder, torture,

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Four in five Iraqis believe Saddam Hussein was guilty of murdering and torturing civilians in their country, according to a recent nationwide poll in Iraq.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [Wants2rideFast] [ In reply to ]
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Of course i didnt read it, i was just going off your post. All i was saying is that you shouldnt hold something up as couragous just because people dont like it. Apparently the only reason issues are unpopular is because people fail to see the nobility in the cause? Im just saying that sometimes something is unpopular because its a bad idea. Politicians supported the Vietnam war even though it was unpopular with many people. And here we are, thirty years later, and no one thinks the Vietnam war was noble (note: i am not saying the actions of some of the soldiers werent noble, but that the war itself wasnt). Is anyone calling the presidents that escalated the war courageous?
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Re: Interesting Poll [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. Let's try and clear some of this up with FACTS. Someone mentioned that Iraqi chemical/biological weapons have a long shelf life. That is FALSE. The U.S. Defense Department's "Militarily Critical Technologies List" (MCTL) is "a detailed compendium of technologies" that the department advocates as "critical to maintaining superior US military capabilities. It applies to all mission areas, especially counter-proliferation." Written in 1998, it was recently re-published with updates for 2002.

So what is the MCTL's opinion of Iraq's chemical weapons program? In making its chemical nerve agents, "The Iraqis . . . produce[d] a . . . mixture which was inherently unstable," says the report. "When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a 'make and use' regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations, later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition."

Furthermore, says this Defense Department report, "The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the [first] Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion were visibly leaking." The shelf life of these poorly made agents were said to be a few weeks at best - hardly the stuff of vast chemical weapons stores.


There was some talk shortly before the first Gulf War that the Iraqis had been creating binary chemical weapons, in which the relatively non-toxic ingredients of the agent remain unmixed until just before the weapon is used; this allows the user to bypass any worry about shelf life or toxicity. But according to the MCTL, "The Iraqis had a small number of bastardized binary munitions in which some unfortunate individual was to pour one ingredient into the other from a Jerry can prior to use" - an action few soldiers were willing to perform.

Brian mentioned that Atta had met with an Iraqi intelligence official:

Newsweek: Czech Officials Say Story That Sept. 11 Hijacker Atta Met with Iraqi Agent in is Wrong; 'Nothing has Matched Up,' Says U.S. Official. Czechoslovakian government officials have quietly acknowledged that they may have been mistaken about a supposed meeting at the Iraqi Embassy last April in Prague between suspected Sept. 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta ... U.S. intelligence officials now believe that Atta, the hijackers' ringleader, wasn't even in Prague at the time the Czechs claimed. "We looked at this real hard because, obviously, if it were true, it would be huge," one senior U.S. law-enforcement official tells Newsweek. "But nothing has matched up." Although Atta had indeed flown from Prague to the U.S. in June 2000, the Czechs had placed the alleged meeting in April 2001. The FBI could find no visa or airline records showing he had left or re-entered the United States that month. "Neither we nor the Czechs nor anybody else has any information he was coming or going [to Prague] at that time," says one U.S. official.


So let's talk about what we DO KNOW. We know an unmarked 155 mm shell possibly containing traces of Sarin was used by insurgents to fashion a bomb, just as they have used other 155mm shells. We also know that way back at the beginning of the war, we found a few chemical rockets with empty warheads.

Let me ask you a question. If GWB went on national TV and said "we think there may be a few weapons left over that the inspectors missed...we know of a 155 mm shell which though unmarked, may contain traces of Sarin...", would you have gone to war? What if Powell went to the UN and said "we are aware of some chemical rockets....with empty warheads...that were not properly destroyed by the inspectors..." would you have gone to war? Because those are the FACTS, as we have them. The facts are NOT that there are nuclear weapons, vast stores of VX, anthrax, mobile labs, drones which can spray toxins, etc, etc, etc, which is what Bush/Powell/Cheney/Rumsfeld told us.

So please don't tell me that finding a few shells (because there will be a few more) proves what Bush/Powell/Cheney/Rumsfeld said. It does not.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [apolack1] [ In reply to ]
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The KKK risks everything for their cause? So, why then, do they hide behind robes? I would say they don't risk very much of anything. Seems more like they have been playing it safe since their inception.



On another note:

I have heard many on this forum saying that instead of invading Iraq, we should be invading North Korea. Would there be the same outrage if we really did that? I have a feeling that if we did do that, the same people denouncing this president and this war would be standing up and doing the same with North Korea. Be careful what you wish for. If we do go into North Korea, I'd like not to hear complaints from the very people calling for it now.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [haennp] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I have heard many on this forum saying that instead of invading Iraq, we should be invading North Korea.[/reply]

ummm, I think you'll find that you have heard many questioning the rationale of invading Iraq, and then extrapolating from that to say that things should go futher just to be consistent. I don't think there are many who have said that North Korea is a viable/desirable target (apart possibly from the "might makes right" section of the peanut gallery). Quite different things.

Nick

Another irrational Bush hater with no experience of war:
http://truthout.org/docs_04/051804A.shtml
Last edited by: goobie: May 18, 04 7:18
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [haennp] [ In reply to ]
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haennp,

Excellent points and observations!



Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [3Sport] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
Brian. Show us some compelling evidence that these 25-year-old artifacts are part of a comprehensive and (up until last year) coordinated effort to produce WMDs and delivery systems capable of attacking the US. I can tell you I'm the Duke of Kent, but unless I have documentation to back it up, I'm just spouting lies on a message board.
[/reply]

Ordinarily I would not reply, but this is just getting too ridiculous. Not ONE of you actually read what Kay said in his report, you only watched what CNN told you he said. Did you also know that he said in an NPR interview, "I think it was reasonable to reach the conclusion that Iraq posed an imminent threat." He added that "I must say I actually think what we learned during the inspection made Iraq a more dangerous place potentially, than in fact we thought it was even before the war." Read the Wall Street Journal article:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/?id=110004612
Also in the Kay report are these tidbits that we discovered:
1) Chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval.
2) Reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist).
3) Nearly-finished plans for a nuclear weapon buried in a 50 gallon drum in the backyard of a former nuclear scientist.
4) New research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin.
5) A prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans.
6) Long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs.
7) Documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea.
8) Facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

Only an idiot or someone with an agenda could read the full Kay report and not conclude that Iraq had a pattern of development of delivery systems and WMDs to go with them. Just because the stockpiles have not yet been found does not mean there was no active program waiting for sanctions to end/loosen. I have to therefore conclude that those people arguing that Iraq had no WMD projects either 1) have not read the Kay report, or 2) have read it and are idiots/propogandists. And this is my first and final comment on this subject.


Mad
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
former weapons inspector david albright just said tonite on hannity and colmes this evening that he has seen no evidence of any transport of weapons to syria


I wonder why people are so confused by this? Our friend David Kay, who is as confused as the every intelligent Hans Blix, said in a interview 1/25/04 the following:

(Bold is my edit)

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," [David Kay] said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."

It would be helpful if someone could make a consistent stand. David Kay can't even be consistent. I am just getting tired of people playing both sides of the issue. If there is a possibility of weapons in Syria then we should go to Syria and find them. I know that many people have discredited this theory but it seems to show up in too many places to be entirely false.

I think we may know that some (how much?) are moved to Syria but will not do anything about it because of troop issues, Geopolitical issues and the overall unwiliingness to go to war there for obvious reasons. If I am GW it may be a better choice to leave them there under watch and risk they will stay put rather than go in to Syria with force.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [haennp] [ In reply to ]
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there is only one reason why we haven't gone after n. korea in the same fashion as iraq and that is because it actually is an imminent threat to the u.s. and a great number of others in the region.....




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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NK is a real threat that is much scarier than SH. That situation is really scay because not only could he nuke a US city on his own but he sells arms to OBL and probably other terrorist and he does business with Iran. There is a theory that Iran wants to move their program to NK so Isreal can't strike it and take it out.

NK is truly a place we need world support to neutralize that threat. We need to really start building that coalition now and get China et al on board.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [apolack1] [ In reply to ]
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"but they were in fact destroyed."

If you destroy a WMD then you can prove it. They haven't proven it.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [5280] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
NK is a real threat that is much scarier than SH. That situation is really scay because not only could he nuke a US city on his own but he sells arms to OBL and probably other terrorist and he does business with Iran. There is a theory that Iran wants to move their program to NK so Isreal can't strike it and take it out.

NK is truly a place we need world support to neutralize that threat. We need to really start building that coalition now and get China et al on board.
I agree 100% about North Korea. The only problem is that this administration has squandered the massive goodwill the world community felt towards us after 9/11, and has severely damaged our ability to build such a coalition.
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [cholla] [ In reply to ]
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True, but the threat may outweigh their dislike for our policy in Iraq and other places. NK could (I hope not) turn out to be the threat you see in Sci Fi movies that is so great that everyone has to work together because the consequence is so horrible. If I am China, Japan, SK or a number of other countries I would be looking for anyone to be on my side. I think the real issue will be deciding among the countries not if, but rather how, we should deal with the threat.
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Re: Interesting Poll [Peter826] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to welcome Peter826 to the small club of free-thinking people who do their research.

You are a great asset, and we are glad to have you.

Keep posting!
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Re: Oh Oh!!! WMD - CONFIRMED!!!! [triguy42] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Only an idiot or someone with an agenda could read the full Kay report and not conclude that Iraq had a pattern of development of delivery systems and WMDs to go with them. Just because the stockpiles have not yet been found does not mean there was no active program waiting for sanctions to end/loosen. I have to therefore conclude that those people arguing that Iraq had no WMD projects either 1) have not read the Kay report, or 2) have read it and are idiots/propogandists. And this is my first and final comment on this subject.


Only an idiot or someone with an agenda thinks that the war in Iraq was about WMD-program-related activities, rather than the actual existence of WMD stockpiles that Rummy, Powell, Bush, & Cheney all stated Saddam had, that they knew the exact locations of such, and that they could be used against us in 45 minutes. Only an idiot or someone with an agenda fails to make the critical distinction between a dictator's aspirations and the actual threat he poses.

Only an idiot or someone with an agenda could read the Wall Street Journal Opinion page and take it as an unbiased factual source. Here is another article written at the same time, with a different take:

------------------------------------------------------



The Art of Camouflage
David Kay comes clean, almost.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Jan. 26, 2004, at 2:41 PM PT



David Kay's remarks over the weekend—that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction before the war and that U.S. intelligence agencies missed the signs that would have told them as much—held few surprises for anyone who'd closely read his official report on the matter last October. (Click here for one such close reading.)

Kay was the CIA's chief weapons inspector until he resigned last week. The difference between his report of last fall and his statements of recent days is that he was still on the Bush administration's payroll when he wrote the former and a free agent when he made the latter. It's the difference between obfuscation and clarity—political allegiance and public candor.

The discrepancy is not so much a comment on David Kay or George W. Bush as a general caution on how to read official reports.

For example, in an interview conducted late Saturday and published in today's New York Times, Kay says, "I'm personally convinced that there were not large stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction. We don't find the people, the documents or the physical plants that you would expect to find if the production was going on."

Iraq's weapons and facilities, he says, had been destroyed in three phases: by allied bombardment in the 1991 Gulf War; by U.N. inspectors in the half-decade after that war; and by President Clinton's 1998 bombing campaign. (Clinton's airstrikes, by now widely forgotten, were even at the time widely dismissed as a political diversion; they took place during the weekend when the House of Representatives voted for impeachment. But according to Kay, they destroyed Iraq's remaining infrastructure for building chemical weapons.) Kay adds that Saddam tried to resuscitate some of these programs, but—due to sanctions, fear of inspections, and lack of resources—he was not able to do so.

Kay made these same points in his report last October, but it was easy to overlook them—in fact, the reader was meant to. Kay didn't exactly lie in the report; the points were there if you looked carefully; but he did his best to camouflage them.

There are tried and true methods to this art of camouflage. The idea is to deploy vague rhetoric and unchallengeable facts that seem menacing at first glance but on close inspection have no significance. The hope is that, if you play this game well enough, nobody will inspect them closely enough to notice.

For instance, Kay began his report by noting that Saddam Hussein's WMD program "spanned more than two decades" and "involved thousands of people and billions of dollars."

You had to read the next several pages to realize that these thousands of people and billions of dollars also "spanned more than two decades"—that, at least since 1991, nowhere near that much money or manpower was involved at any one time. You also have to read on to realize that, whatever the level of endeavor, its results were nil. In short, Kay wasn't lying. But he was setting a diversionary tone, at the top of the report, to please his bosses and give them ammo for sound bites.

Another example: Kay wrote, in a breathless style, that Saddam had set up "a clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service." Buried in the paragraphs to follow was Kay's conclusion that these labs and safehouses didn't produce anything of note. Similarly, the report warned that Saddam "may have engaged" in "research on a possible VX-stabilizer" (italics added), but said nothing about whether he actually developed any such thing or even possessed VX.

My favorite example of Kay's attempt to trump substance with style: Saddam's scientists "began several small and relatively unsophisticated research initiatives … that could have been useful in developing a weapons-relevant science base for the long-term." This description is so vague, it would accurately describe the act of reading a textbook on nuclear physics.

Kay did his job well. His report did not tell lies. But it puffed up enough smoke to let President Bush proclaim it as a justification for the war. Bush cited, with particular enthusiasm, the bit about Saddam's "clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses"—a phrase containing four words designed to raise the hair of anyone who's ever glanced at a spy novel.

Now that Kay has quit, he can tell the same story—but without the smokescreen.

In the Times interview, Kay does add one dimension to his tale—and it is the newest, most intriguing aspect of them all. In the late 1990s, it seems, Saddam took personal control of Iraq's WMD program. As a result, Iraqi scientists started going to him directly with proposals of fanciful weapons systems, for which Saddam paid them heaps of money. As Kay puts it, the WMD program turned into a "vortex of corruption." Saddam was deluded with fantasies; the scientists pocketed the money and filed phony progress reports on fake weapons systems.

Kay says the CIA's biggest failure lay in missing this internal deception. Though the Times piece doesn't say so, it's quite likely that the CIA itself was deceived, intercepting some of these phony reports and treating them as credulously as Saddam did. In any case, in the Times interview, Kay calls for an overhaul in the way the agency processes intelligence.

It is significant that Kay wrote nothing about the Iraqi scientists' deception campaign—and issued no such call for radical reform of the U.S. intelligence community—in his report last October. The omissions are the ultimate indicators that the report's main goal was to please and protect his employer.

Even now, Kay falls short of making a full break with the Bush administration. He continues to state that Iraq was a danger to the world, worth going to war against, even if not for the same reasons that Bush claimed. He tells the Times, "We know that terrorists were passing through Iraq. And now we know that there was little control over Iraq's weapons capabilities. I think it shows that Iraq was a very dangerous place. The country had the technology, the ability to produce, and there were terrorist groups passing through the country—and no central control."

This is a puzzling sequence of non sequiturs. Terrorists may have been passing through, but Kay—who bases his other conclusions on interviews with many Iraqi scientists and examination of many documents—found nothing that suggests any contact between terrorists and scientists. The disarray of Saddam's rule may have meant there was "little control over Iraq's weapons capabilities," but, as Kay says elsewhere, there was also little in the way of Iraqi weapons. Having "the technology" is not the same thing as having the weapons; "the ability to produce" is not the same thing as producing.

It will be interesting to watch where David Kay goes next. On one level, he's come clean, but on another, he's still playing his old games.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2094415/
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