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Re: New Cervelo S5 [djconnel] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder how much of the head tube stiffness increase will be lost by people who now have to run 1 to 2cm more spacers =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Or how much will be gained by those who can now upsize to next frame, gain longer reach, and run a shorter stem. Or swap a -17 deg for a -10 deg or -6 deg.
Last edited by: djconnel: Aug 30, 14 12:22
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Based on this: http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/...geometry-600x492.jpg
It looks like the bikes run pretty small. Standover is low.
Do you know seat tube length center to top?
(Edited- just realized there is no seat collar)
Many riders may be able to size up on this bike if they need more stack?
Last edited by: bootsie_cat: Aug 30, 14 21:32
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [djconnel] [ In reply to ]
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djconnel wrote:
Or how much will be gained by those who can now upsize to next frame, gain longer reach, and run a shorter stem. Or swap a -17 deg for a -10 deg or -6 deg.

certainly if Ryder Hesjdal sized up that would help. But, I think most of the people who think they need super low stack also think the long stems are cool

anyway, no cervelo for ryder next year!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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Hi denali,

From memory, about 6 Watts (all components the same, including bars and wheels).

Cyclocross! Yeah, we want one. But every year it's been on the agenda, it gets bumped by a new P4, a new S5, a new P5, a new P3, a new P2, a new RCA, etc.

We've finally admitted we're probably not ever(?) going to make one.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Duncan,

Great questions and it's clear to me you understand the aero effects very well. Yes, we're simply giving a centimeter and a bit to those who insist on low bars. Per WT testing, 40 mm of spacers is worth about 7 grams at 30.0 mph, so I'm not too worried about this smaller difference.

I've never gotten around to photoshopping e.g. Ryder and Merckx's positions, scaled and in transparent overlay. I suspect they'd demonstrate when you explained: same body angles, but modern pros' hands are on the hoods, not the hooks.

We measured aero drag with hands in various positions in the wind tunnel with Fabian Cancellara. For him, the drag was lowest with forearms level, which on his Cervelo, was hands on the hoods, not drops. Even with him, I suspect if we'd frozen his body angles and replaced his frame with a bigger size (or two) so his hands were in the drops, drag might have decreased - but we've not gotten around to testing that yet. For me, since different riders have different bar heights, "hoods" or "drops" isn't the parameter of interest, but maybe something like "forearm angle + degree of bar shielding," or something like that.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jack,

No worries, with 35%(!) more torsional stiffness there's plenty to spare.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Bummer about the 'cross bike but I can see how it's not really your thing, or at lower priority. Having said that, I think there'd be huge demand for an R3 tweaked as an "adventure" bike. Kinda like the "mud" R3 but maybe blowing out the tire clearance to 35.

Btw, very happy owner of a P5 and s2. I lust after the new S5 but will probably have to settle for just upgrading to the new aerobar. There some races that I want to do next year that will require a 'cross bike and can't afford 2 new bikes unless I win Powerball!
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Damon:

I don't know about Merckx, but this Coppi - Contador comparison got a lot of attention:
http://ruedatropical.com/...m-coppi-to-contador/

I did an animated GIF overlay of Anquetil and Tony Martin:
http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...anquetil-versus.html

Positions haven't rely changed much. Arm angles perhaps.

I always thought Contador's position looked exemplary. He looks relaxed yet his back is in a good place. He's the antithesis if Andy Schleck.

I ride 8cm drop on my road bike. I used to ride more but then I had to rotate my bars to raise the hoods. Additionally I'd then ride on what would be the ramps on an older bike instead of the hoods. 3dbikefit talked some spence into me.

That said all of this talk about spacers isn't quite fair, since going from a -17 to -6 deg stem may involve losing spacers for the same bar height with shorter stack. If I was getting custom geometry Id want a 9-10 cm stem and probably 0-6 deg, not 12-13 or -17.

I did fitting diagrams here:
http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...cervelo-demo-r5.html

You can either start with desired x,y and project back to the frame, or project from the frame and try to get close to x,y.

I'm no fitting expert but it seems to me you want to be able to ride in the drops for a more aggressive position, or hoods for less aggressive, in each case with bent elbows without pivoting shoulders forward. When lowering the bars means you lose the drops or need to strain shoulders or overextend arms you're no longer improving back position, just straining. 3d bike fit also likes to emphasize rotating pelvis forward and maintaining a straight back. I really don't see many pros with straight backs so I wonder about that one, but everything else seems consistent with what the best riders do.


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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Damon,

Out of curiosity, why is there no love for the Shimano direct mount brakes? I've zero experience of them and haven't found any decent reviews so it may just be that they're no good; either way, they just don't seem to be used by anyone except Trek. Are manufacturers avoiding them as the twin post mount is, I guess, fairly proprietary to this brake and other component manufacturers aren't using the standard, hence no one wants to commit to a frame designed for them? Do they compromise the seat stay design (I guess they need more strength to prevent flexing). I chose my NP3 because it has normal brakes, which was a big factor in my decision process, and I think it's refreshing for a company to be focussing on what's most beneficial to the end user i.e. standard brakes over compromised hidden brakes.

Whilst I'm asking... the revised colour schemes of the P3/P5 and some of the R series seems to be at odds with the 2014 bikes; can we expect updates to S2/S3 colour schemes?
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [JerseyBigfoot] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jersey,

Direct mount brakes makes structural sense, but you nailed it - at this time, you're restricted to Shimano and only a few other choices. As you mentioned, clumsy hidden brakes are no fun, and simple single-hole brake mounts are more athlete-friendly all around. Free choice of any standard brake means you can choose super-aero (Magura, Tri-Rig), and maintenance is easy and clean so you always have good braking performance.

For color schemes, "I can neither confirm nor deny..." so stand by! FYI Cervelo has abandoned "model years" in the sense that we don't feel compelled to change (for example) paint schemes on existing models until something else significant has also changed. For some of the Cervelo models that changed this year, one of the changes is from 10 to 11 speed drivetrains, etc.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [djconnel] [ In reply to ]
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Hi dj,

Beautiful, same concept I was thinking.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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Hi bootsie,

Yep, that links to the official geometry. We don't have a lot of S5s around the office yet (we're planning to have them in stores in October, if all goes well), so I can't easily measure a seat tube for you.

But your observation is right: the lower frame stack means standover is also lower (by different amounts in each size, so check your size). Feel free to size up if the stack and reach match your needs.

Cheers,

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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I plotted the geometry, comparing to Trek for reference:


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Re: New Cervelo S5 [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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If anyone wants to save about $7K, I'm selling my 2012 54' with Campy 11.

Need to go, sick of having my wife ask me if I've sold it yet. Pm me with your email addy and I'll send you pics.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [djconnel] [ In reply to ]
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Nice comparisons there. When it comes to riding in the drops I think the best in the pro peloton nowadays is Tony Martin, who achieves a position that not only looks aerodynamic but he can also hold it for significant lengths of time. If he hasn't spent time on his road bike in the windtunnel I'd be amazed. Out of the GT contenders Nibali is also very good. Both have a more classic elbow bend and from what I can tell neither have a large saddle to bar drop.

On a slight tangent, I'm not even sure it's possible to set up Merckx or Coppi positions with modern components simply because bar shape and brake/brifter hood shapes have mutated with the change in style of positions. I noticed this when I went from original shape Campy Ergos to modern Campy Ergos on Deda 215 bars. The new Ergos are much longer in the hood and simply don't work on the older bar shape. Going back further in time, drops used to be much deeper; worked then because the hoods were set pretty low, but modern brifter hoods have to be put higher up. This leads to shallower drops which then connects to the fashion for having slammed stems while keeping the drops somewhat accessible.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Did you ever get a chance to measure actual center to top of seat tube on a 56cm 2015 S5?
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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I can't wait to start reading some reviews of this bike. I'm interested to see how it rides compared to the current S3. I'm planning to switch from a Supersix to either a S3 or S5 this winter and still can't decide which one to go with.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [ttusomeone] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you switching from the supersix? That might be the best handling bike i have ever ridden and very well made.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [-Mike-] [ In reply to ]
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Don't get me wrong I love my supersix. But I'm moving to a new team next year and they get killer deals on Cervelo's so I'm looking to make a switch.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [-Mike-] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ridden the new S3? Might be the best all rounder out there currently. New S5, if it is as comfy as the S3, will be even better.
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [-Mike-] [ In reply to ]
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-Mike- wrote:
Why are you switching from the supersix? That might be the best handling bike i have ever ridden and very well made.

Because it is tied for the worst aero drag of any modern road racing frame.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
-Mike- wrote:
Why are you switching from the supersix? That might be the best handling bike i have ever ridden and very well made.


Because it is tied for the worst aero drag of any modern road racing frame.




Also may have cost Sagan stage 7 (among other kit "choices") at the TdF this year...
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [nickvas] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Cervelo S5 [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
Hi Jack,

No worries, with 35%(!) more torsional stiffness there's plenty to spare.

Cheers,


I'm confused now, how does the stiffness compare to the S3?

I will either be updating my old S5 for a new one, or S3.
Last edited by: Noof: Sep 18, 14 20:32
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