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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly, Kona said no to 2 days there. Also the majority of IM customers want seperate days for Women and Men. What do they want IM to do...

They had no other options...
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Sbernardi wrote:
People don’t get it. It’s not Ironman.

KONA SAID NO!!

to what, two days?

So IM can return to a one day /shrug
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Actually no people do get it
Kona said no to 2 days
IM said no to mens pro and AG
IM Could have had it on one day like it always was but THEY chose not to
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [sol-rosenberg] [ In reply to ]
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sol-rosenberg wrote:
My post should have been in pink. Sorry.

Oh I got it hence my reply. ha

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Timjr21] [ In reply to ]
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IM could have done 1 day but guess what.. all women and many others would have yelled just as loud as those who beleive that Kona is sacred. So IM did what they thought was best.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Timjr21] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly this. Ironman created this mess by trying to double the # of suckers they could get to sign up for WC. Then IM wrongly assumed that Kona would bend to Ironman's will by permitting a 2 day event again.

A massive mess that Ironman made for themselves. They show utter contempt for their customers...the entire organization has gone to shit.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
Sbernardi wrote:
People don’t get it. It’s not Ironman.

KONA SAID NO!!


to what, two days?

So IM can return to a one day /shrug

More athletes can race over 2 days which means more money for Ironman.

NICE can probably have 3000 racing. 2000 in kona.

$1000 per entry.

Nice $$ come bonus time for Messick.

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [christianlee] [ In reply to ]
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100%
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [IM_Roycer81] [ In reply to ]
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IM_Roycer81 wrote:
Rideon77 wrote:


You might want to go back and read the Terms of Use if you have already paid for the race. (Hint: you are not going to like it)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These are what the waivers actually state:

WTC Waiver
"ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND ASSUMPTION OF RISKS & RELEASE AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT
2023 IRONMAN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, KAILUA-KONA, HAWAI'I – OCTOBER 12 & 14, 2023"

*****Specifically relates to a race in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii.

Further in the waiver it states,
"I acknowledge and agree that WTC/Organizer, in its sole discretion (whether for safety reasons, legal reasons, or any other reason), may: (a) at any time, with or without notice, change or modify the race course, distances, routes, elevation, ascents, difficulty level, or any other race-course or Event aspect; or (b) delay or cancel the Event (or any leg(s) of the race) for any reason, including but not limited to if it believes the conditions are unsafe or otherwise unsuitable for the Event, and WTC/Organizer may delay the Event for so long as such unsafe or unsuitable conditions apply. If the race course or Event is changed, modified, delayed, or cancelled for any reason, including but not limited to acts of God or the elements (including without limitation, wind, rough water, rain, hail, hurricane, tornado, earthquake), acts of terrorism, fire, threatened or actual strike, labor difficulty, work stoppage, insurrection, war, public disaster, public health risks, pandemic, flood, unavoidable casualty, race course conditions, or any other cause beyond the control of WTC/Organizer, there will be no refund of WTC/Organizer’s entry fee or any other costs incurred in connection with the Event. WTC/Organizer may, in its sole discretion, offer an automatic entry for a later date or a transfer to another event to be chosen by WTC/Organizer."

*******Here the participant is agreeing that the course can be changed or modified without any notices. They add the general provision of "any other course or event aspect" However, I would argue it is fairly clear from this wording that the intent of the provision is to account for things like cancelling the swim, or shortening the bike course, etc. I find it hard to imagine they can be protected by moving the race to the other side of the world when the waiver being signed was related to a race in Kailua Kona. They would have a much better leg to stand on if the language simply referred to the "Ironman World Championship" and did not specify the location.

The Slot Acceptance Waiver (separate from the above) states:
"I understand that I am accepting a qualifying slot for the 2023 VinFast IRONMAN World Championship taking place in Kailua-Kona, HI on October 12 & 14, 2023. I understand that I will not be permitted to defer my slot to a future IRONMAN World Championship event and will be subject to the withdrawal policy of the event as follows:
Withdrawal requests must be received in writing via email to kona@ironman.com.  Without exception, all requests must be received on or before August 28, 2023 to be eligible for a partial refund of $175.00 USD.  Deferrals are not permitted"

******* Again, words matter, the signee is agreeing to the terms as it relates to an event taking place in Kailua-Kona
Honestly, I hope it is an unsubstantiated rumor. I would be fine with this decision if it applied in 2024 moving forward. It is the bait and switch aspect I object to. If they do it, I am not stupid enough to waste my time or money trying to litigate something as frivolous as this and hope they at least offer a deferral to Kona because that's the race I would prefer to do.

Side note- I am an attorney

You may not waste time and money, but with wording like that, I bet someone does if it’s true.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Timjr21] [ In reply to ]
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Prior to Covid, how many people were complaining about one day Kona? It wasn’t a big topic.

IM got greedy. Locals got pissed. Now we are back to a crappy version of a one day event.

Well done, IM executives!
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, I get that.

But to say they had "no choice" is inaccurate based on what I've read.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [proftri] [ In reply to ]
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https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...ccording-to-reports/

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [PayneM85] [ In reply to ]
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Feel your pain. Non refundable Airbnb and airfare already booked for Kona 23.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Timjr21] [ In reply to ]
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If that's what you want then it means they reduce slots, the same 2000 people keep qualifying every year and everybody will whine that Ironman now took slots away. There's already whining that the legacy program isn't fair. Oh yes, there's also business growth. Adding more races has been tried, buying other businesses has been tried, cutting staff has been tried. What works though? More Kona slots. They just have to figure out how to make more slots work. And it will work regardless of the noise right now. It'll just take some time.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
sol-rosenberg wrote:
While I don't have a problem with IMWC not being in Kona, I will not be impacted by this decision.

Now imagine you and your partner just raced IMAZ (or IMCoz) last weekend and both qualified for IMWC in 2023 assuming it would be in Kona in at least the same week. You plop down $1400 plus fees per person looking forward to that event to secure your spot. Nary a week later you find out that one of you will be racing in Kona one month and one of you will be racing on another continent in the following month. You planned and budgeted for one trip to one far-ish location. Now, you are pivoting (perhaps frantically) to book two BIG trips two months in a row and one of you will be doing your peak training while the other is racing.

Yeah, I'd be pissed.

Well, maybe not. I might just say f*ck Ironman.


I think the scenario of a husband wife both qualifying in the same year and getting pissed off is worth the upside of countless athletes from Europe who would love to have an Ironman worlds in Europe and certainly in Nice. From the east coast of North America, Nice is faster to get to too. It is only an 8-9 hrs to some place like Frankfurt and 1.5 hrs connector. Going east coast to Kona, you have 6 hrs getting across north America and then 5-6 hrs more to get to Kona.

I can see from Japan, North America West Coast, South America and NZ/Aus, Kona is closer, but for most of the rest of the world, largely Europe is actually in the middle of the world (like GMT or not, that's the way it is).

This is a great move for Ironman. Nice is fabulous in a different way from Kona.


Hey it's me the downside.

I'm already qualified for 2023, and my wife signed up for a race that isn't easy to get to, but it suits her strengths, for the purpose of 2023 qualification.

So we'll be out anything I can't get back from Kona, and the extra money we spent for her to go to a KQ-able race. I'm not sure how we'd even swing that trip right now if she still wants to do it. The thought of two separate trips, Kona & Nice, is a crazy amount of money to consider.

That said, it's not the worst idea besides the stupid timing. It's just shitty to shoehorn it into 2023 when it screws a lot of people over. Clearly not optimal. Do it in 2024 so everyone knew what they were getting into and there'd be way less commotion.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Last edited by: MrRabbit: Nov 29, 22 18:13
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Timjr21] [ In reply to ]
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No business goes backwards in profit. Ironman or not. They made the decision last year. It’s not changing.

NBA was one 5 game final
NFL had one playoff game
There was 0 college football playoff

The first year of 70.3 racing there was no championship race….
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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" Do it in 2024 so everyone knew what they were getting into and there'd be way less commotion."

This is the solution. IM demonstrated that it could be flexible during Covid. I thought that was generally handled well. Figure 2023 out, and 2024 move forward. Hopefully they'll let those that qualified for 23 and want to race there to defer to an appropriate race


If it's even true
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
Prior to Covid, how many people were complaining about one day Kona? It wasn’t a big topic.

IM got greedy. Locals got pissed. Now we are back to a crappy version of a one day event.

Well done, IM executives!

I think Ironman have played it perfectly (from a business angle)

In 2011 there were about 1800 entries. $600 entry =
In 2022 there were about 4500 entries. $1000 entry = (with pissed locals and 2 days racing)
In 2023 there will be 2400 in Kona and 2500 in NICE at $1000 entry (happy locals because kona is 1 day again)

* not exact numbers but close

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [timr] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. It’s just not possible to please everyone.
Option 1: keep it to one day, allow a field of 3000 and it’s a major draft fest, congested course but Kona would tolerate it for a day. Many people will whine about the drafting (while drafting often times 💁).

Option 2: two days for racing. Kona said no. That’s not an option. End of story.

Option 3: go back to a small field. People will complain about many races have so few slots.

So to expand the field, allow more people to qualify for a WC (which is really only a WC in name since you can make it by legacy and I think the slots on auction is still a thing? Bid starting at 25k 🙄) you need two locations.

As an aside there are many communities that are happy to welcome a big event. I’d rather race those races than those where you’re just bothering people. Race in Roth and you will see how different things are when you’re welcome.
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
" Do it in 2024 so everyone knew what they were getting into and there'd be way less commotion."

This is the solution. IM demonstrated that it could be flexible during Covid. I thought that was generally handled well. Figure 2023 out, and 2024 move forward. Hopefully they'll let those that qualified for 23 and want to race there to defer to an appropriate race


If it's even true

Agreed. If this is true and they truly had no choice, I expect at least the option to defer to 2024.

Not as fun as my wife and I on the same day (if her race goes well), but at least we won't have to figure out Nice and Kona trips back to back. I doubt many would want to do that.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [littlepete] [ In reply to ]
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littlepete wrote:
Waingro wrote:
Prior to Covid, how many people were complaining about one day Kona? It wasn’t a big topic.

IM got greedy. Locals got pissed. Now we are back to a crappy version of a one day event.

Well done, IM executives!

I think Ironman have played it perfectly (from a business angle)

In 2011 there were about 1800 entries. $600 entry =
In 2022 there were about 4500 entries. $1000 entry = (with pissed locals and 2 days racing)
In 2023 there will be 2400 in Kona and 2500 in NICE at $1000 entry (happy locals because kona is 1 day again)

* not exact numbers but close

You must be a big private equity fanboy
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [theyellowcarguy] [ In reply to ]
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theyellowcarguy wrote:
IM_Roycer81 wrote:
Rideon77 wrote:


You might want to go back and read the Terms of Use if you have already paid for the race. (Hint: you are not going to like it)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These are what the waivers actually state:

WTC Waiver
"ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND ASSUMPTION OF RISKS & RELEASE AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT
2023 IRONMAN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, KAILUA-KONA, HAWAI'I – OCTOBER 12 & 14, 2023"

*****Specifically relates to a race in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii.

Further in the waiver it states,
"I acknowledge and agree that WTC/Organizer, in its sole discretion (whether for safety reasons, legal reasons, or any other reason), may: (a) at any time, with or without notice, change or modify the race course, distances, routes, elevation, ascents, difficulty level, or any other race-course or Event aspect; or (b) delay or cancel the Event (or any leg(s) of the race) for any reason, including but not limited to if it believes the conditions are unsafe or otherwise unsuitable for the Event, and WTC/Organizer may delay the Event for so long as such unsafe or unsuitable conditions apply. If the race course or Event is changed, modified, delayed, or cancelled for any reason, including but not limited to acts of God or the elements (including without limitation, wind, rough water, rain, hail, hurricane, tornado, earthquake), acts of terrorism, fire, threatened or actual strike, labor difficulty, work stoppage, insurrection, war, public disaster, public health risks, pandemic, flood, unavoidable casualty, race course conditions, or any other cause beyond the control of WTC/Organizer, there will be no refund of WTC/Organizer’s entry fee or any other costs incurred in connection with the Event. WTC/Organizer may, in its sole discretion, offer an automatic entry for a later date or a transfer to another event to be chosen by WTC/Organizer."

*******Here the participant is agreeing that the course can be changed or modified without any notices. They add the general provision of "any other course or event aspect" However, I would argue it is fairly clear from this wording that the intent of the provision is to account for things like cancelling the swim, or shortening the bike course, etc. I find it hard to imagine they can be protected by moving the race to the other side of the world when the waiver being signed was related to a race in Kailua Kona. They would have a much better leg to stand on if the language simply referred to the "Ironman World Championship" and did not specify the location.

The Slot Acceptance Waiver (separate from the above) states:
"I understand that I am accepting a qualifying slot for the 2023 VinFast IRONMAN World Championship taking place in Kailua-Kona, HI on October 12 & 14, 2023. I understand that I will not be permitted to defer my slot to a future IRONMAN World Championship event and will be subject to the withdrawal policy of the event as follows:
Withdrawal requests must be received in writing via email to kona@ironman.com.  Without exception, all requests must be received on or before August 28, 2023 to be eligible for a partial refund of $175.00 USD.  Deferrals are not permitted"

******* Again, words matter, the signee is agreeing to the terms as it relates to an event taking place in Kailua-Kona
Honestly, I hope it is an unsubstantiated rumor. I would be fine with this decision if it applied in 2024 moving forward. It is the bait and switch aspect I object to. If they do it, I am not stupid enough to waste my time or money trying to litigate something as frivolous as this and hope they at least offer a deferral to Kona because that's the race I would prefer to do.

Side note- I am an attorney


You may not waste time and money, but with wording like that, I bet someone does if it’s true.

"WTC... may... delay or cancel the Event... for any reason"

seems to pretty well rule out any comeback, especially given they can point to "cause beyond the control of WTC" and "conditions.. unsuitable for the Event."
probably they will (if any of this is true) give some sort of option to defer/transfer but as for any private costs incurred, no chance
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Love it. Back to the roots of our sport where Hawaii and Nice were the two outstanding races on the calendar drawing the best athletes.

Does that mean than Mark Allen now officially has 16 Ironman World Championship titles?
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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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I've heard Ironman secured a new title sponsor for this split race format:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=5295094910419159667&pli=1


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Re: Kona Mens Race to Nice in 2023 [theyellowcarguy] [ In reply to ]
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I bumped heads with Ironman over their move from Traverse City to Frankfort. I did 2019 TC race and signed up for 2020. COVID killed that race. In 2021 they moved it Frankfort and changed the race date two or three weeks later in the year (end of August to early September). The race date did not work for me and the location was meh. I asked for a refund. They said no. So I challenged the charge through my CC. That didn't work. So I filed in small claims court. I had no idea if I'd win or lose or what would happen. I won by default. Nobody from Ironman showed up. I received a credit on my card a month later.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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