Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Ironman Barcelona drafting
Quote | Reply
Can't understand how no one speak about it
180 km of long peloton
Constant drafting ( not because of athlets ) but because someone is pushing 2800 athlets to where 2 years ago with challenge was sold out 1300 athlets -same course !!
My 2 cents
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [eshtern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I did Challenge Barcelona in 2012. At the time it was possible to choose not to draft, but with the number of athletes on the course this year it's getting pretty hard. I'd love to go back there since the venue is great and the bike course is very fast (even without drafting), but not with the current number of athletes participating and nobody caring about the blatant drafting going on.

Below a picture from @wheelworx to give an indication of the situation.

Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [Maca944] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is a concern that I've heard on several occasions about IM Barcelona.
There seems to be no/little opportunity for strong cyclists to gain time over weaker ones. Instead it's almost like everybody is waiting for the run so that they can start racing again.

I was interested in doing this race next year but, after chatting with a female pro that I know, have been put off. She described pretty much what your picture shows above, and talked about what a nightmare it was to try to avoid drafting. She was saying that whenever she dropped back so that she was out of the draft zone, somebody would overtake her and unapologetically sit within it. because of the general peleton effect, she did a 4:5x bike split. By her own admission she's not that fast, but she was left with very little option but to just go with it.
Last edited by: Liaman: Oct 5, 15 3:33
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [Maca944] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maca944 wrote:
I did Challenge Barcelona in 2012. At the time it was possible to choose not to draft, but with the number of athletes on the course this year it's getting pretty hard. I'd love to go back there since the venue is great and the bike course is very fast (even without drafting), but not with the current number of athletes participating and nobody caring about the blatant drafting going on.

Below a picture from @wheelworx to give an indication of the situation.


I posted Natascha Badmann's 4:40 time in another thread. Which provides a benchmark of how fast this course is without drafting (assume she was riding pretty much solo out of the pro women wave....Yvonne Van Vlierken went around 4:46). Also in 45-49 Holger Lorenz who, at one point lead the bike in Kona (when he raced pro around 15 years ago) rode 4:33. Holger swam 53 min, so I assume his riding was largely solo ahead of the big packs. Those provide a window into how fast the course is. David Plese rode 4:25. Not crazy fast for pro men, just a touch over 40 kph. Per Bittner and Anton Blokhin both swam 47 and biked 4:19. They would have benefited from each other's presence, but not like the age group field. So let's take Plesse and Van Vlierken as examples of how fast this course is. If you put Marino or Kienle on this course, they probably ride 4:10, maybe faster.

With 2600 people on the course and a rolling start, the easy solution is to slow down the rolling start and meter out the entry into the water. Basically if you stretch 2600 people over 26 minutes, that is 100 people into the water per minute or over 2 per second. If you can get it down to 1 per second over around 50 minutes, most of the drafting issue would dramatically decrease. At the end of the day, it is related to rider density out of T1 in a competitive field. Lower the density into the water and it gets lower coming out of T1. At IM Tahoe we had 1200 or so into the water in around 15 minutes. The first part of the course is pretty flat for the first 2 hours, so it could easily be a draft fest, but with the low rider density, it was clear sailing.

As you said with 1300 at Challenge Barcelona you could avoid drafting, so it's proven that on the same course with less rider density you can have a fair race. Ironman just needs to meter out the departure rate in the rolling starts and you can have a good race in Barcelona. Then hang around for a few days either before or after for some UEFA Champion's league action and taking in some culture and it sounds like the perfect destination event. I am hopeful they can resolve the rider density issue given the move to rolling start format. At Tahoe they did a much better job metering us out into the water than in Boulder.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [Liaman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Liaman wrote:
This is a concern that I've heard on several occasions about IM Barcelona.
There seems to be no/little opportunity for strong cyclists to gain time over weaker ones. Instead it's almost like everybody is waiting for the run so that they can start racing again.

I was interested in doing this race next year but, after chatting with a female pro that I know, have been put off. She described pretty much what your picture shows above, and talked about what a nightmare it was to try to avoid drafting. She was saying that whenever she dropped back so that she was out of the draft zone, somebody would overtake her and unapologetically sit within it. because of the general peleton effect, she did a 4:5x bike split. By her own admission she's not that fast, but she was left with very little option but to just go with it.

Thanks for this color. I did not realize that pro women did not have a bigger gap on the field. Would be interested to know if this is a single loop swim or double loop swim. If single loop swim, it makes implementation of a slower metered rolling start a lot easier and MOST of this problem goes away. At 1 athlete per second into the water most of the congestion out of T1 dramatically drops down.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [eshtern] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
And this is why so many people think WTC racing is much more competitive than non-WTC races. The times are fast due to too many people, too little course, poorly enforced drafting rules. Plus, those facts on course have led to the attitude by many people who race WTC races that drafting is risk/reward issue, not "illegal".

I've done too many WTC races where I witnessed those conditions first hand to ever return to one of their races. I am just not willing, nor do I desire, to sit in the pack. But without that benefit, all you do is pull your competition to the real starting line, which is T2.

But as long as so many people favor that style of racing, paying double the entry fee of a smaller race (which will necessarily have less drafting) in the process, triathlon gets what it deserves.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wont help
Waves on swim are on already issue is the course 2*90 actually 4*45 flat so no way They Can avoid
I see 2 options
1.change of course
2. Lower the max amount of registered athlets ( will never happend as business before everything )
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [Paul Dunn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paul Dunn wrote:
And this is why so many people think WTC racing is much more competitive than non-WTC races. The times are fast due to too many people, too little course, poorly enforced drafting rules. Plus, those facts on course have led to the attitude by many people who race WTC races that drafting is risk/reward issue, not "illegal".

I've done too many WTC races where I witnessed those conditions first hand to ever return to one of their races. I am just not willing, nor do I desire, to sit in the pack. But without that benefit, all you do is pull your competition to the real starting line, which is T2.

But as long as so many people favor that style of racing, paying double the entry fee of a smaller race (which will necessarily have less drafting) in the process, triathlon gets what it deserves.

All good points and bummer they cancel zero drafting races like Tahoe where alll the times are legit and the race starts at the gun, not at T2
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Paul Dunn wrote:
And this is why so many people think WTC racing is much more competitive than non-WTC races. The times are fast due to too many people, too little course, poorly enforced drafting rules. Plus, those facts on course have led to the attitude by many people who race WTC races that drafting is risk/reward issue, not "illegal".

I've done too many WTC races where I witnessed those conditions first hand to ever return to one of their races. I am just not willing, nor do I desire, to sit in the pack. But without that benefit, all you do is pull your competition to the real starting line, which is T2.

But as long as so many people favor that style of racing, paying double the entry fee of a smaller race (which will necessarily have less drafting) in the process, triathlon gets what it deserves.


All good points and bummer they cancel zero drafting races like Tahoe where alll the times are legit and the race starts at the gun, not at T2


I raced Mallorca last week & despite the so-called 'rolling start' there was heaps of cheating going on, especially on the headwind sections - 6-7 riders all 1-2 meters apart. The rolling start was the roughest swim I've done & this is where I believe improvements are to be had - zero point in folks self-seeding in pens (one of which was 1hr - 1:15, how many does that represent?!) & then sounding one hooter & everyone runs into the water from beach, i.e. a mass start. This is identical to start method used at IM Lanza for many years.
Rolling starts need restricting to 20-30 athletes at a time sent off in bunches - wasn't that done in Melbourne?

More marshals would have helped, especially on the sections where drafting may be tempting, not hard to work out by a savvy race official & yeah, don't over-fill a race!
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [endoverend] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The race announcer mentioned they were looking into running the bike course much further out (like, to Barcelona) for future events. Thus making it a 1 lap course. It'll still be fast but maybe a bit more fair. I biked a 5:18 (trying my best to ride honest) and still sat around 145w avg. It's just very quick, good surface and relatively wind protected.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
Natasha was very much in group like this. One of my young 21 year old athlete rode pass her very early into the bike (he is a age grouper) and rode 4:35. he said it was very congested and almost impossible to stay out of draft zone. He is a strong rider and didn't like the outcome of the race.

But once again, this isnt a barcelona only issue.....

Kona:

Brazil :




IMCDA

IM melbourne


IMAZ


IM FL


IM COZ

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm mainly a cyclist, and only ever done one tri, but *wow*, even after seeing all the drafting threads on ST I never knew it was that bad. If that's what's going on, even at the "world championships", they need to either find a way to spread out the racers more or drop the draft rules. You can't have a rule that it's impossible to follow or enforce.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're right, it's a format wide problem and not specific to any one race.

Far too many athletes are being allowed to enter these races, 2000+ athletes on course at the same time is always going to lead to situations like this.
I often wonder if the standard format for IMs should be to hold them over a weekend and have half (or possibly slightly over half) of the current number on course each day.

I'd stay away from having a mens' and womens' day, and instead would alternate AGs in each gender.
Sat:
M18-24
F25-29
M30-34...

Sun:
F18-24
M25-29
F30-34...

The MPROs would race one day, the FPROs the other.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Until they chop the field in half, this will always be a problem. It's all about the money.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [GAUG3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Perhaps a little clarification. If you can swim 50-54 minutes and a strong cyclist...you get a pretty clean/honest ride in most places. but for the 55-1h20 swimmers, you will be in close company of your friends.

Very different kind of racing in both scenario....

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wow.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
great posters for Ironman's marketing department!

jonnyo wrote:

Natasha was very much in group like this. One of my young 21 year old athlete rode pass her very early into the bike (he is a age grouper) and rode 4:35. he said it was very congested and almost impossible to stay out of draft zone. He is a strong rider and didn't like the outcome of the race.

But once again, this isnt a barcelona only issue.....

Kona:

Brazil :




IMCDA

IM melbourne


IMAZ


IM FL


IM COZ

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Ventum Bicycles and Frames
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i have done every since IMCOZ since the 2nd one and while there has been huge drafting in the past, the picture you posted was of the exit at T1. i will admit to "drafting" there also. you're dumped out of T1 and getting used to land again and yeah, I'm SURE I drafted coming out of T1. The last couple years there have been penalties and agressive officials. there are still packs but it is getting MUCH better, mostly thanks to Damon? that guy who built the Hello Kitty bike case? I've even met the guy and can't remember his name. Anyway he worked hard with FMTRI and drafting is much much better. we'll see in a couple months how it was this year.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com


Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
you can look at every single year and i could easily find 10+ picture of each year drafting. While you might have been able to race clean, not everyone make this choice.

And this is the reality of our sport. Those big drafting races sells out very quickly as many athletes are driven by the idea of a fast time. I see it constantly with athletes wanting to pick fast courses. While publicly, many talk a different game, when it come time for action, very few keep there high morality.

here's 2013 cozumel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarfCT1eyws not sure where this was taken?


In the end, my point is, it s very easy with a short clip or pictures to make it look like a dirty race. But we have to be carefull as this only say a small part of the story. And almost everyone says they are against drafting...but when given the chance to up on the train to get a fast time....the dream of bragging right and been able to claim a extra fast time to prove there social superiority is a very strong dark force..... Many are guilty!

not pointing fingers to anyone. just been realistic.

Course with reduce participant or multiday event would perhaps be a option. or some space out waves on single loop courses....

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just say make the rules what so many do anythings. Get rid of the drafting rules.

I have a draft legal race in a week. Will see if I can get healthy to get to the starting line.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It sounds like the solution but I think it makes the problem even worse and puts too many in danger of injury.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [Liaman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Liaman wrote:
You're right, it's a format wide problem and not specific to any one race.

Far too many athletes are being allowed to enter these races, 2000+ athletes on course at the same time is always going to lead to situations like this.
I often wonder if the standard format for IMs should be to hold them over a weekend and have half (or possibly slightly over half) of the current number on course each day.

I'd stay away from having a mens' and womens' day, and instead would alternate AGs in each gender.
Sat:
M18-24
F25-29
M30-34...

Sun:
F18-24
M25-29
F30-34...

The MPROs would race one day, the FPROs the other.

2 days with of permits
2 days worth of cops
2 days worth of medics
2 days worth of volunteers.

Yea, this will never happen.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jonnyo wrote:
you can look at every single year and i could easily find 10+ picture of each year drafting. While you might have been able to race clean, not everyone make this choice.

And this is the reality of our sport. Those big drafting races sells out very quickly as many athletes are driven by the idea of a fast time. I see it constantly with athletes wanting to pick fast courses. While publicly, many talk a different game, when it come time for action, very few keep there high morality.

here's 2013 cozumel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarfCT1eyws not sure where this was taken?


In the end, my point is, it s very easy with a short clip or pictures to make it look like a dirty race. But we have to be carefull as this only say a small part of the story. And almost everyone says they are against drafting...but when given the chance to up on the train to get a fast time....the dream of bragging right and been able to claim a extra fast time to prove there social superiority is a very strong dark force..... Many are guilty!

not pointing fingers to anyone. just been realistic.

Course with reduce participant or multiday event would perhaps be a option. or some space out waves on single loop courses....

I picked South Africa, Texas, Whistler and Tahoe this year :-( Even you'd think Texas might become a mess, but it is actually really clean with the rolling start, wide roads and strong wind. The others, my times ranged from 5:39 to 5:56....I ride 5:20ish at Kona.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
that's one way to think of it.

but i'd be afraid to have triathletes draft off of me.

many aren't very good cyclists to begin with. there is very little to no group riding taught with triathletes.

as a road cyclist now tri - im often quite shocked by the lack of skills that many triathletes possess on the bike.

So start training on drafting out of the gate - that needs to start from early on or NO on drafting.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Barcelona drafting [TylerJ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TylerJ wrote:
Liaman wrote:
You're right, it's a format wide problem and not specific to any one race.

Far too many athletes are being allowed to enter these races, 2000+ athletes on course at the same time is always going to lead to situations like this.
I often wonder if the standard format for IMs should be to hold them over a weekend and have half (or possibly slightly over half) of the current number on course each day.

I'd stay away from having a mens' and womens' day, and instead would alternate AGs in each gender.
Sat:
M18-24
F25-29
M30-34...

Sun:
F18-24
M25-29
F30-34...

The MPROs would race one day, the FPROs the other.


2 days with of permits
2 days worth of cops
2 days worth of medics
2 days worth of volunteers.

Yea, this will never happen.

I agree. Not realistic.

Just a day dream
Quote Reply

Prev Next