I have to also say after doing three really tough races this year and a slow humid flatter one, I would like to do one easier course next year where I start the run 45 min earlier with less TSS in the legs and be able to run faster and finish the race an hour earlier. Ironman is hardd enough and doing races as much as an hour longer is tough. I can see the attraction of a flat course just to get done quicker. But it can always be done by letting the packs go, but you have to let KQ and age group position go too.

They did a great job at IM Coz in 2014 with wave starts, allowing people to ride in 4 lanes and lots of marketing for riding fair. I witnessed the odd small group, one lady in pink blatantly drafting but overall the race was fair.

I think this example shows if Athleten want to ride fair, and organizers try, youcan have a good race in a 3 lap course.

Agree. As a mop swimmer and fop bike/run I basically need to race a tough course to qualify or give up that goal and do something easier where my time will be much better and effort required much less, but my ranking will be quite different than the tough course.

The best courses i have done that make the bike fair are Lake Placid, South African and even IMTX seemed to be quite a fair race for some reason even though its pretty flat for the most part.

Kona is one of the worst I find now. I often see people I have been faster at in a qualifier like LP who go 20mins+ faster in kona than me which seems mainly due to the bike benefit it seems as its been a consistent theme over the years I have raced.

I would like to get that PB down though having never done the super fast courses yet !

Jonathan qualify post with pictures.

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And get rid of lots of racers. I did draft legal bike racing for many years, and switched to triathlon in order to race "TT style". I just don't want to participate in a style of racing that really necessitates teamwork. I want my individual effort to be factor that decides my fate.

If triathlon went generally draft legal, I'd go back to bike racing.... I know many who feel the same. My solution is to only participate in smaller races, preferably with harder courses. No WTC races; ever.

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

I have never done a "really fast course"...only done Penticton, LP, Whistler, Tremblant, Texas, Kona, Nice, South Africa, Tahoe". Texas and Kona are the flattest courses I have done. I would actually like to do something easier some time soon like Arizona or Barcelona, but I have to just go do these races to get a fast time than age group placement. If you do a flat race for age group placement, then you basically have to draft with the density that WTC is putting on the road. i do believe if you can get it down to around 1 athlete per second entering the water, the exit can be clean. As I said, in Tahoe, the first 2 hours there is plenty of chance to draft if the course is congested enough, but it was clear sailing as the congestion was zero. In Tremblant for example, there is plenty of chance to draft the first 2 hours and that's exactly what goes on (even though the course has 6000 ft of vertical). It really pisses me off and this year, sadly I did not do it, even though it is barely 100 miles from home and is the BEST IM production in the entire sport as far as I have seen. I did not go partly because I cared about placement. My placements in Texas are always better than Tremblant and arguably Tremblant should have less drafting, but it's tight over there and has more. Part of it is only having 1 lane for all those riders. Give us 2 lanes and it really breaks up.

I'll probably go back to Tremblant soon though with no illusion of placement. I am eyeing Barcelona and Arizona, both because I just want to do an easy course finally (31 IM's later, I have not done a super fast one yet....and yes, I would like to have a "fast time" just once in my life (for my age). I'll just drop back and let the groups go. If I am going to try for a fast time, then it's really a TT with myself to see how fast I can get on a flat course (and maybe I go slower than hill....) and then the position is the position. My half IM PB back in the day on flat course (Ottawa Canadian half IM) was 4:23. I did a 4:14 at Esprit, but its short and continuous slingshot so I don't really count that as my true PB. I THINK if I can go 11:22 at Tahoe I can get under 10:20 on fast course at 50+. Maybe I am dillusional, but I'd like to try and just let the groups go. Potentially ending the bike with 50 points less TSS than say Tahoe or Nice without drafting for a much faster overall race time out of T2 is appealing, just to run a "non survival run".

Ken Glah still has "entry only slots to IM Florida".....ok forget that thought, I better save it for next year. 4 this year is enough.

maybe the sport would get rid of a few racers in the short-term. I'm sure it would turn a corner sooner than most would think and numbers would be right back up or better.

Call a spade a spade: Ironman and most other triathlon races have become a gran fondo style event. You have all levels of racers/participants on the same course, same time, doing multiple lap races and - what do you know - drafting. End the drafting prohibition for everyone's sake. A lot of people would be safer on road bikes anyway.

ETA: It would be cool to have an Elite/Pro class that does have a smaller, enforceable field of racers have their own non-draft racing series. Maybe you can "cat-up" from gran fondo style racing to the non-draft, if you so chose. but that's a whole 'nother thing.

This makes me throw up in my mouth. Why do people insist on racing MDOT with over 2000 people? I'm a legit MOP, and just rode 112 miles with no one within eyesight ahead or behind me at Cedar Point. In 5 hours and 30 minutes, I made one pass and was passed twice. It was the most satisfying ride of my life.

At least get rid of the aerobars. Somebody is going to get speared!

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

In the case of Ironman, I agree. WTC races are, for age groupers, essentially draft legal; little enforcement, lax penalties, a general attitude that drafting is not "illegal" but a risk/reward trade-off.

The alternative: just DONT race WTC races. It is really a great trade. You pay half the entry fee. Get 1/2 or fewer racers on the course. Generally better drafting enforcement. No need to make all races draft legal.

But if WTC wanted to go draft legal, that would be fine with me. For all practical purposes, they already are draft legal, and I don't do their races, so no change for me....

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

Oh by the way, I see how RUDY PROJECT wins the helmet count at KONA....LOL!!! Did they give out the free helmets and say, "and get on the Queen K and sit in the train to Hawi...."

Yep.

I think Mexico does not allow TT bars at their DL races. I see nothing wrong with making this the rule as most DL races have. The one I race next weekend
does allow TT bars and has never had an issue. But, if their were 2000 folks, well, ...

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I raced in San Diego a few weeks ago. Same thing, course way too crowded. My bib fell off on the run so I tucked it into my top. After the race I see I received a penalty for "no race number". Ok whatever, but was interesting is when I asked for the penalty report there were 3 race number penalties and only 1 drafting penalty. I even emailed the official where he said the course was "too crowded" and the RD would need to look into that for next year. I watched countless people draft, but the official managed 1 penalty for something that affects the race outcome and 3 for something that doesn't. That's lazy officiating IMO.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

When I raced there in 2013, you could get a Helmet and glasses for something like £50, so no surprise they won the helmet count.

At Kona it seems to be accepted that in the first 20k of the bike there will be drafting due to the volume of racers coming out out the swim around 1:00-1:10, but that after that they do seem to enforce the drafting quite strictly. Compare that with Austria where even after 20k you get massive packs and little enforcement. When I did it a massive contingent from Mexico seemed to ride in one big pack around the entire course without penalty. That really was a sportive ride.

I think an approach like Kona would be a good way forward with a lenient approach for the first 20k to reflect the fact that it's impossible not to technically draft, and then really enforce it properly, although I think this would be a bit of a culture shock for many.

I'm sure there's a pretty easy technological way to monitor drafting using the timing matts and correlating data between mats placed fairly close, I.e. 3 mats 1k apart should allow you to tell who is riding in a group. However, I'm not sure WTC would want to start DQ'ing large numbers of their paying customers, so I don't think this is going to happen.

Dev: figure out a way to do Barcelona. It's a beautiful course and the community is great for spectators.

To bx3 and others - yes there were certainly some packs of riders. But photos are often very bad for looking at drafting. Telephoto lens shots (which are very likely in this context) compress the objects you see, making them appear much closer together.

Not saying everyone rides clean but pictures make it look way worse than it really is.

Thing is, we're assuming that all entrants to a race actually give a shit! I'm convinced there's a very large contingent that don't see getting a penalty as a big deal as they're just out to complete the day, overall time is meaningless to them. In mallorca there was a list of approx 50-60 riders that got DQ'd after the bike, most for drafting AND not stopping to take the penalty!! Now, that's what we're contending with on one side but also appreciate they'll always be athletes that consider drafting just 'gamesmanship' / 'its OK so long as you don't get caught'.

Back to Barca, looking at a few results,looks like it was an 'exceptional' race full of extraordinary fast lady bikers who biked within 15mins of their male counterparts....

It is not that bad everywhere, I did Vichy, it is maybe a bit smaller race, had a wave start, just few waves though. First one was sub 1h self seeders (actually very few swam under 1h compared to Barcelona, might have been the course and bit of a chop) and AWA.

FOP bike was quite nicely refereed, no massive packs, 5 or six guys at most and at legal distance most of the time, of course a little closer when hitting a village or roundabout. Very active referees though, and also giving positive feedback when gaps were ok, which I think is important as well. This also shows in the times, I think fastest 40-44 time was 4.48 and maybe 10 guys sub 5h, and the course is not very hilly, although it was quite windy on the second loop.

Dont know how it was for MOP.

Barcelona times are incredible all around, swim, bike and run. Maybe I'll do that race once to get a nice PR to throw around....

There were 150 people in that race... which isn't financially sustainable. Unless the race is being subsidized by the half like at Cedar Point. I would even question the sanity of that because I'm not sure a race with 400 people for the half and a full at 150 people is in the black but that's another topic for debate.

Point being that you can't have a utopian 150 person clean race that can last on its own. It's just not a realistic option.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Dev, I have done "tough" races like Whistler and Texas and I have done "easier" races (FL 2x, AZ 1x). I think a course like IMFL would frustrate you.

To be honest the worst drafting I have ever seen in a race was Whistler in 2013 when the 100 KQ slots brought out an extremely top heavy AG field. The very pointy end of the AG was pretty clean (the top 5 or so in each AG), and the MOP and BOP were clean but that middle to back of the front of the pack race was a mess. Those were the guys and gals who can't just waltz into any race and grab a KQ. They have to fight for that spot and hope the stars align. That meant drafting that 35 miles in Pemberton like it was a pro peloton. I was in the group just behind that group, call me FOMOP, and witnessed it all first hand due to the out and back nature of that part of the course.

And we all know how the 70.3 WC courses have been blatant draft fests. So the equation is either flat = drafting or fast racers = drafting.

My first year at IMFL I rode a 5:42 as a newbie and after a 1:06 swim. I didn't think the drafting was that bad from my vantage point. I was passed by one big group early in the race but didn't see much more the rest of the day. I was back three years later and swam the same 1:06 but rode 5:06 (including a mechanical so it was probably more like a 4:5X moving time) and the drafting, while not so bad early on, got really bad the last 20-30 miles. These packs of 10-20 riders would come by and swallow me up and spit me out. Then another group would do the same. It was hard to get a rhythm the last 60-90 minutes for me. I just refused to join in the shenanigans and would let them fly by but then you end up at the back of the train getting sucked into their draft vortex, then I would sit up and coast and let them get far enough ahead and ride my pace for a few minutes until another group came by and I'd do the same routine over and over. It really annoyed the shit out of me. There were a lot of officials on the course during that time and they were constantly telling the groups to break up but I never once saw a penalty handed out.

I rode a 5:15 at AZ and did not see that much blatant drafting. The course just gets crowded during laps 2 and 3 so there's a constant passing/legal drafting/slingshotting going on all day.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

 
This makes me throw up in my mouth. Why do people insist on racing MDOT with over 2000 people? I'm a legit MOP, and just rode 112 miles with no one within eyesight ahead or behind me at Cedar Point. In 5 hours and 30 minutes, I made one pass and was passed twice. It was the most satisfying ride of my life.




This is the exact reason why some people race WTC and not independent races

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

That group looked like they're on a sight seeing tour...soft pedaling in for a 7 hour ride.

I will say it......if the race is going up the road in groups, hell ya I jump in.


That's the race as its played out on that day....other days not?

As I said, people have different value. In cycling, they use the same mentality, the race go up the road, hell yah give me some drugs. Same process.

The issue is the organization are setting athletes for cheating. And triathlon accept drafting the same way cycling accept drugs.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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are you talking about Superfrog?

Like shop lifting and rape......I guess you can make a parallel

no, bad exemple. While i dont agree with drafting, i dont see it entirely as the atheltes fault. The race director need to offer a environement where clean racing is possible.


1000 people comiing out of the water between 60min and 70min in a ironman doesn't provide this chance....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram