I did Challenge Barcelona in 2012. At the time it was possible to choose not to draft, but with the number of athletes on the course this year it's getting pretty hard. I'd love to go back there since the venue is great and the bike course is very fast (even without drafting), but not with the current number of athletes participating and nobody caring about the blatant drafting going on.

Below a picture from @wheelworx to give an indication of the situation.

This is a concern that I've heard on several occasions about IM Barcelona.
There seems to be no/little opportunity for strong cyclists to gain time over weaker ones. Instead it's almost like everybody is waiting for the run so that they can start racing again.

I was interested in doing this race next year but, after chatting with a female pro that I know, have been put off. She described pretty much what your picture shows above, and talked about what a nightmare it was to try to avoid drafting. She was saying that whenever she dropped back so that she was out of the draft zone, somebody would overtake her and unapologetically sit within it. because of the general peleton effect, she did a 4:5x bike split. By her own admission she's not that fast, but she was left with very little option but to just go with it.

I posted Natascha Badmann's 4:40 time in another thread. Which provides a benchmark of how fast this course is without drafting (assume she was riding pretty much solo out of the pro women wave....Yvonne Van Vlierken went around 4:46). Also in 45-49 Holger Lorenz who, at one point lead the bike in Kona (when he raced pro around 15 years ago) rode 4:33. Holger swam 53 min, so I assume his riding was largely solo ahead of the big packs. Those provide a window into how fast the course is. David Plese rode 4:25. Not crazy fast for pro men, just a touch over 40 kph. Per Bittner and Anton Blokhin both swam 47 and biked 4:19. They would have benefited from each other's presence, but not like the age group field. So let's take Plesse and Van Vlierken as examples of how fast this course is. If you put Marino or Kienle on this course, they probably ride 4:10, maybe faster.

With 2600 people on the course and a rolling start, the easy solution is to slow down the rolling start and meter out the entry into the water. Basically if you stretch 2600 people over 26 minutes, that is 100 people into the water per minute or over 2 per second. If you can get it down to 1 per second over around 50 minutes, most of the drafting issue would dramatically decrease. At the end of the day, it is related to rider density out of T1 in a competitive field. Lower the density into the water and it gets lower coming out of T1. At IM Tahoe we had 1200 or so into the water in around 15 minutes. The first part of the course is pretty flat for the first 2 hours, so it could easily be a draft fest, but with the low rider density, it was clear sailing.

As you said with 1300 at Challenge Barcelona you could avoid drafting, so it's proven that on the same course with less rider density you can have a fair race. Ironman just needs to meter out the departure rate in the rolling starts and you can have a good race in Barcelona. Then hang around for a few days either before or after for some UEFA Champion's league action and taking in some culture and it sounds like the perfect destination event. I am hopeful they can resolve the rider density issue given the move to rolling start format. At Tahoe they did a much better job metering us out into the water than in Boulder.

Thanks for this color. I did not realize that pro women did not have a bigger gap on the field. Would be interested to know if this is a single loop swim or double loop swim. If single loop swim, it makes implementation of a slower metered rolling start a lot easier and MOST of this problem goes away. At 1 athlete per second into the water most of the congestion out of T1 dramatically drops down.

And this is why so many people think WTC racing is much more competitive than non-WTC races. The times are fast due to too many people, too little course, poorly enforced drafting rules. Plus, those facts on course have led to the attitude by many people who race WTC races that drafting is risk/reward issue, not "illegal".

I've done too many WTC races where I witnessed those conditions first hand to ever return to one of their races. I am just not willing, nor do I desire, to sit in the pack. But without that benefit, all you do is pull your competition to the real starting line, which is T2.

But as long as so many people favor that style of racing, paying double the entry fee of a smaller race (which will necessarily have less drafting) in the process, triathlon gets what it deserves.

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

Wont help
Waves on swim are on already issue is the course 2*90 actually 4*45 flat so no way They Can avoid
I see 2 options
1.change of course
2. Lower the max amount of registered athlets ( will never happend as business before everything )

All good points and bummer they cancel zero drafting races like Tahoe where alll the times are legit and the race starts at the gun, not at T2

I raced Mallorca last week & despite the so-called 'rolling start' there was heaps of cheating going on, especially on the headwind sections - 6-7 riders all 1-2 meters apart. The rolling start was the roughest swim I've done & this is where I believe improvements are to be had - zero point in folks self-seeding in pens (one of which was 1hr - 1:15, how many does that represent?!) & then sounding one hooter & everyone runs into the water from beach, i.e. a mass start. This is identical to start method used at IM Lanza for many years.
Rolling starts need restricting to 20-30 athletes at a time sent off in bunches - wasn't that done in Melbourne?

More marshals would have helped, especially on the sections where drafting may be tempting, not hard to work out by a savvy race official & yeah, don't over-fill a race!

The race announcer mentioned they were looking into running the bike course much further out (like, to Barcelona) for future events. Thus making it a 1 lap course. It'll still be fast but maybe a bit more fair. I biked a 5:18 (trying my best to ride honest) and still sat around 145w avg. It's just very quick, good surface and relatively wind protected.

 
Natasha was very much in group like this. One of my young 21 year old athlete rode pass her very early into the bike (he is a age grouper) and rode 4:35. he said it was very congested and almost impossible to stay out of draft zone. He is a strong rider and didn't like the outcome of the race.

But once again, this isnt a barcelona only issue.....

Kona:

Brazil :




IMCDA

IM melbourne


IMAZ


IM FL


IM COZ

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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I'm mainly a cyclist, and only ever done one tri, but *wow*, even after seeing all the drafting threads on ST I never knew it was that bad. If that's what's going on, even at the "world championships", they need to either find a way to spread out the racers more or drop the draft rules. You can't have a rule that it's impossible to follow or enforce.

You're right, it's a format wide problem and not specific to any one race.

Far too many athletes are being allowed to enter these races, 2000+ athletes on course at the same time is always going to lead to situations like this.
I often wonder if the standard format for IMs should be to hold them over a weekend and have half (or possibly slightly over half) of the current number on course each day.

I'd stay away from having a mens' and womens' day, and instead would alternate AGs in each gender.
Sat:
M18-24
F25-29
M30-34...

Sun:
F18-24
M25-29
F30-34...

The MPROs would race one day, the FPROs the other.

Until they chop the field in half, this will always be a problem. It's all about the money.

Perhaps a little clarification. If you can swim 50-54 minutes and a strong cyclist...you get a pretty clean/honest ride in most places. but for the 55-1h20 swimmers, you will be in close company of your friends.

Very different kind of racing in both scenario....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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Wow.

great posters for Ironman's marketing department!

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i have done every since IMCOZ since the 2nd one and while there has been huge drafting in the past, the picture you posted was of the exit at T1. i will admit to "drafting" there also. you're dumped out of T1 and getting used to land again and yeah, I'm SURE I drafted coming out of T1. The last couple years there have been penalties and agressive officials. there are still packs but it is getting MUCH better, mostly thanks to Damon? that guy who built the Hello Kitty bike case? I've even met the guy and can't remember his name. Anyway he worked hard with FMTRI and drafting is much much better. we'll see in a couple months how it was this year.

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you can look at every single year and i could easily find 10+ picture of each year drafting. While you might have been able to race clean, not everyone make this choice.

And this is the reality of our sport. Those big drafting races sells out very quickly as many athletes are driven by the idea of a fast time. I see it constantly with athletes wanting to pick fast courses. While publicly, many talk a different game, when it come time for action, very few keep there high morality.

here's 2013 cozumel video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarfCT1eyws not sure where this was taken?


In the end, my point is, it s very easy with a short clip or pictures to make it look like a dirty race. But we have to be carefull as this only say a small part of the story. And almost everyone says they are against drafting...but when given the chance to up on the train to get a fast time....the dream of bragging right and been able to claim a extra fast time to prove there social superiority is a very strong dark force..... Many are guilty!

not pointing fingers to anyone. just been realistic.

Course with reduce participant or multiday event would perhaps be a option. or some space out waves on single loop courses....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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I just say make the rules what so many do anythings. Get rid of the drafting rules.

I have a draft legal race in a week. Will see if I can get healthy to get to the starting line.

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It sounds like the solution but I think it makes the problem even worse and puts too many in danger of injury.

2 days with of permits
2 days worth of cops
2 days worth of medics
2 days worth of volunteers.

Yea, this will never happen.

I picked South Africa, Texas, Whistler and Tahoe this year :-( Even you'd think Texas might become a mess, but it is actually really clean with the rolling start, wide roads and strong wind. The others, my times ranged from 5:39 to 5:56....I ride 5:20ish at Kona.

that's one way to think of it.

but i'd be afraid to have triathletes draft off of me.

many aren't very good cyclists to begin with. there is very little to no group riding taught with triathletes.

as a road cyclist now tri - im often quite shocked by the lack of skills that many triathletes possess on the bike.

So start training on drafting out of the gate - that needs to start from early on or NO on drafting.

I agree. Not realistic.

Just a day dream

I have to also say after doing three really tough races this year and a slow humid flatter one, I would like to do one easier course next year where I start the run 45 min earlier with less TSS in the legs and be able to run faster and finish the race an hour earlier. Ironman is hardd enough and doing races as much as an hour longer is tough. I can see the attraction of a flat course just to get done quicker. But it can always be done by letting the packs go, but you have to let KQ and age group position go too.

They did a great job at IM Coz in 2014 with wave starts, allowing people to ride in 4 lanes and lots of marketing for riding fair. I witnessed the odd small group, one lady in pink blatantly drafting but overall the race was fair.

I think this example shows if Athleten want to ride fair, and organizers try, youcan have a good race in a 3 lap course.

Agree. As a mop swimmer and fop bike/run I basically need to race a tough course to qualify or give up that goal and do something easier where my time will be much better and effort required much less, but my ranking will be quite different than the tough course.

The best courses i have done that make the bike fair are Lake Placid, South African and even IMTX seemed to be quite a fair race for some reason even though its pretty flat for the most part.

Kona is one of the worst I find now. I often see people I have been faster at in a qualifier like LP who go 20mins+ faster in kona than me which seems mainly due to the bike benefit it seems as its been a consistent theme over the years I have raced.

I would like to get that PB down though having never done the super fast courses yet !

Jonathan qualify post with pictures.

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And get rid of lots of racers. I did draft legal bike racing for many years, and switched to triathlon in order to race "TT style". I just don't want to participate in a style of racing that really necessitates teamwork. I want my individual effort to be factor that decides my fate.

If triathlon went generally draft legal, I'd go back to bike racing.... I know many who feel the same. My solution is to only participate in smaller races, preferably with harder courses. No WTC races; ever.

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

I have never done a "really fast course"...only done Penticton, LP, Whistler, Tremblant, Texas, Kona, Nice, South Africa, Tahoe". Texas and Kona are the flattest courses I have done. I would actually like to do something easier some time soon like Arizona or Barcelona, but I have to just go do these races to get a fast time than age group placement. If you do a flat race for age group placement, then you basically have to draft with the density that WTC is putting on the road. i do believe if you can get it down to around 1 athlete per second entering the water, the exit can be clean. As I said, in Tahoe, the first 2 hours there is plenty of chance to draft if the course is congested enough, but it was clear sailing as the congestion was zero. In Tremblant for example, there is plenty of chance to draft the first 2 hours and that's exactly what goes on (even though the course has 6000 ft of vertical). It really pisses me off and this year, sadly I did not do it, even though it is barely 100 miles from home and is the BEST IM production in the entire sport as far as I have seen. I did not go partly because I cared about placement. My placements in Texas are always better than Tremblant and arguably Tremblant should have less drafting, but it's tight over there and has more. Part of it is only having 1 lane for all those riders. Give us 2 lanes and it really breaks up.

I'll probably go back to Tremblant soon though with no illusion of placement. I am eyeing Barcelona and Arizona, both because I just want to do an easy course finally (31 IM's later, I have not done a super fast one yet....and yes, I would like to have a "fast time" just once in my life (for my age). I'll just drop back and let the groups go. If I am going to try for a fast time, then it's really a TT with myself to see how fast I can get on a flat course (and maybe I go slower than hill....) and then the position is the position. My half IM PB back in the day on flat course (Ottawa Canadian half IM) was 4:23. I did a 4:14 at Esprit, but its short and continuous slingshot so I don't really count that as my true PB. I THINK if I can go 11:22 at Tahoe I can get under 10:20 on fast course at 50+. Maybe I am dillusional, but I'd like to try and just let the groups go. Potentially ending the bike with 50 points less TSS than say Tahoe or Nice without drafting for a much faster overall race time out of T2 is appealing, just to run a "non survival run".

Ken Glah still has "entry only slots to IM Florida".....ok forget that thought, I better save it for next year. 4 this year is enough.

maybe the sport would get rid of a few racers in the short-term. I'm sure it would turn a corner sooner than most would think and numbers would be right back up or better.

Call a spade a spade: Ironman and most other triathlon races have become a gran fondo style event. You have all levels of racers/participants on the same course, same time, doing multiple lap races and - what do you know - drafting. End the drafting prohibition for everyone's sake. A lot of people would be safer on road bikes anyway.

ETA: It would be cool to have an Elite/Pro class that does have a smaller, enforceable field of racers have their own non-draft racing series. Maybe you can "cat-up" from gran fondo style racing to the non-draft, if you so chose. but that's a whole 'nother thing.

This makes me throw up in my mouth. Why do people insist on racing MDOT with over 2000 people? I'm a legit MOP, and just rode 112 miles with no one within eyesight ahead or behind me at Cedar Point. In 5 hours and 30 minutes, I made one pass and was passed twice. It was the most satisfying ride of my life.

At least get rid of the aerobars. Somebody is going to get speared!

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

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In the case of Ironman, I agree. WTC races are, for age groupers, essentially draft legal; little enforcement, lax penalties, a general attitude that drafting is not "illegal" but a risk/reward trade-off.

The alternative: just DONT race WTC races. It is really a great trade. You pay half the entry fee. Get 1/2 or fewer racers on the course. Generally better drafting enforcement. No need to make all races draft legal.

But if WTC wanted to go draft legal, that would be fine with me. For all practical purposes, they already are draft legal, and I don't do their races, so no change for me....

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

Oh by the way, I see how RUDY PROJECT wins the helmet count at KONA....LOL!!! Did they give out the free helmets and say, "and get on the Queen K and sit in the train to Hawi...."

Yep.

I think Mexico does not allow TT bars at their DL races. I see nothing wrong with making this the rule as most DL races have. The one I race next weekend
does allow TT bars and has never had an issue. But, if their were 2000 folks, well, ...

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I raced in San Diego a few weeks ago. Same thing, course way too crowded. My bib fell off on the run so I tucked it into my top. After the race I see I received a penalty for "no race number". Ok whatever, but was interesting is when I asked for the penalty report there were 3 race number penalties and only 1 drafting penalty. I even emailed the official where he said the course was "too crowded" and the RD would need to look into that for next year. I watched countless people draft, but the official managed 1 penalty for something that affects the race outcome and 3 for something that doesn't. That's lazy officiating IMO.

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When I raced there in 2013, you could get a Helmet and glasses for something like �50, so no surprise they won the helmet count.

At Kona it seems to be accepted that in the first 20k of the bike there will be drafting due to the volume of racers coming out out the swim around 1:00-1:10, but that after that they do seem to enforce the drafting quite strictly. Compare that with Austria where even after 20k you get massive packs and little enforcement. When I did it a massive contingent from Mexico seemed to ride in one big pack around the entire course without penalty. That really was a sportive ride.

I think an approach like Kona would be a good way forward with a lenient approach for the first 20k to reflect the fact that it's impossible not to technically draft, and then really enforce it properly, although I think this would be a bit of a culture shock for many.

I'm sure there's a pretty easy technological way to monitor drafting using the timing matts and correlating data between mats placed fairly close, I.e. 3 mats 1k apart should allow you to tell who is riding in a group. However, I'm not sure WTC would want to start DQ'ing large numbers of their paying customers, so I don't think this is going to happen.

Dev: figure out a way to do Barcelona. It's a beautiful course and the community is great for spectators.

To bx3 and others - yes there were certainly some packs of riders. But photos are often very bad for looking at drafting. Telephoto lens shots (which are very likely in this context) compress the objects you see, making them appear much closer together.

Not saying everyone rides clean but pictures make it look way worse than it really is.

Thing is, we're assuming that all entrants to a race actually give a shit! I'm convinced there's a very large contingent that don't see getting a penalty as a big deal as they're just out to complete the day, overall time is meaningless to them. In mallorca there was a list of approx 50-60 riders that got DQ'd after the bike, most for drafting AND not stopping to take the penalty!! Now, that's what we're contending with on one side but also appreciate they'll always be athletes that consider drafting just 'gamesmanship' / 'its OK so long as you don't get caught'.

Back to Barca, looking at a few results,looks like it was an 'exceptional' race full of extraordinary fast lady bikers who biked within 15mins of their male counterparts....

It is not that bad everywhere, I did Vichy, it is maybe a bit smaller race, had a wave start, just few waves though. First one was sub 1h self seeders (actually very few swam under 1h compared to Barcelona, might have been the course and bit of a chop) and AWA.

FOP bike was quite nicely refereed, no massive packs, 5 or six guys at most and at legal distance most of the time, of course a little closer when hitting a village or roundabout. Very active referees though, and also giving positive feedback when gaps were ok, which I think is important as well. This also shows in the times, I think fastest 40-44 time was 4.48 and maybe 10 guys sub 5h, and the course is not very hilly, although it was quite windy on the second loop.

Dont know how it was for MOP.

Barcelona times are incredible all around, swim, bike and run. Maybe I'll do that race once to get a nice PR to throw around....

There were 150 people in that race... which isn't financially sustainable. Unless the race is being subsidized by the half like at Cedar Point. I would even question the sanity of that because I'm not sure a race with 400 people for the half and a full at 150 people is in the black but that's another topic for debate.

Point being that you can't have a utopian 150 person clean race that can last on its own. It's just not a realistic option.

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Dev, I have done "tough" races like Whistler and Texas and I have done "easier" races (FL 2x, AZ 1x). I think a course like IMFL would frustrate you.

To be honest the worst drafting I have ever seen in a race was Whistler in 2013 when the 100 KQ slots brought out an extremely top heavy AG field. The very pointy end of the AG was pretty clean (the top 5 or so in each AG), and the MOP and BOP were clean but that middle to back of the front of the pack race was a mess. Those were the guys and gals who can't just waltz into any race and grab a KQ. They have to fight for that spot and hope the stars align. That meant drafting that 35 miles in Pemberton like it was a pro peloton. I was in the group just behind that group, call me FOMOP, and witnessed it all first hand due to the out and back nature of that part of the course.

And we all know how the 70.3 WC courses have been blatant draft fests. So the equation is either flat = drafting or fast racers = drafting.

My first year at IMFL I rode a 5:42 as a newbie and after a 1:06 swim. I didn't think the drafting was that bad from my vantage point. I was passed by one big group early in the race but didn't see much more the rest of the day. I was back three years later and swam the same 1:06 but rode 5:06 (including a mechanical so it was probably more like a 4:5X moving time) and the drafting, while not so bad early on, got really bad the last 20-30 miles. These packs of 10-20 riders would come by and swallow me up and spit me out. Then another group would do the same. It was hard to get a rhythm the last 60-90 minutes for me. I just refused to join in the shenanigans and would let them fly by but then you end up at the back of the train getting sucked into their draft vortex, then I would sit up and coast and let them get far enough ahead and ride my pace for a few minutes until another group came by and I'd do the same routine over and over. It really annoyed the shit out of me. There were a lot of officials on the course during that time and they were constantly telling the groups to break up but I never once saw a penalty handed out.

I rode a 5:15 at AZ and did not see that much blatant drafting. The course just gets crowded during laps 2 and 3 so there's a constant passing/legal drafting/slingshotting going on all day.

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This makes me throw up in my mouth. Why do people insist on racing MDOT with over 2000 people? I'm a legit MOP, and just rode 112 miles with no one within eyesight ahead or behind me at Cedar Point. In 5 hours and 30 minutes, I made one pass and was passed twice. It was the most satisfying ride of my life.




This is the exact reason why some people race WTC and not independent races

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

That group looked like they're on a sight seeing tour...soft pedaling in for a 7 hour ride.

I will say it......if the race is going up the road in groups, hell ya I jump in.


That's the race as its played out on that day....other days not?

As I said, people have different value. In cycling, they use the same mentality, the race go up the road, hell yah give me some drugs. Same process.

The issue is the organization are setting athletes for cheating. And triathlon accept drafting the same way cycling accept drugs.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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are you talking about Superfrog?

Like shop lifting and rape......I guess you can make a parallel

no, bad exemple. While i dont agree with drafting, i dont see it entirely as the atheltes fault. The race director need to offer a environement where clean racing is possible.


1000 people comiing out of the water between 60min and 70min in a ironman doesn't provide this chance....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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Agreed

No it was an Olympic. I think they're was no Moto as I didn't see one the whole race. Guess the official stood near transition and made calls. I just cannot see an RD ok with that. I would not be. I'd want more drafting penalties. Certainly not more penalties that do nothing to affect the race. I mean I still received the penalty so obviously I had a number on me....

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

You just "nailed" my solution for how not to worry too much about drafting.

I work my butt off in the pool so I can get out of the water in <58. Result: T1, not a zoo. Road ahead pretty clear, and safer too.

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1. __________
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It was super drafty in Spain. The biggest problem was that the marshals were only blowing whistles and not handing out cards. After a while, the guys just settled into the routine of drafting and denying they were worse than anyone else. Very frustrating

I raced IM Barcelona - absolute back of the pack (14:42 finish) - the drafting was obscene by both pros and amateurs. After the first loop I got lapped by the pros and they were all together. Then I got passed by packs of 50 - 70 riders. Whistle blowing going on but nobody was carded or DQ'd.

The sad thing is that I even saw 3 to 4 riders drafting together, not even pretending not to.

Oh well, to each his own race...the course was beautiful, pavement smooth and I really enjoyed the day.

Here I have to give kuddos to IM Vichy. That race was perfect. The refs were very, very strict. Way to go !

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Fuck a duck and try to fly

Wave starts like Roth is def. the way to go. Doesn't fix everything but an improvement on mass starts.

At Roth they were super strict on drafting. Had loads of motorbike marshals handing out penalties. Plus the extra loop on the run course as an extra punishment.

Would it be possible to have a technological solution for drafting? Put a sensor on every bike that measures the proximity to other bikes and some sort of draft algo where nothing happens if you obey the drafting rules and for instance add penalty time for every second you're technically drafting? So for every second you're drafting you get for instance 5 seconds added to your total time?

I am aware that this is probably hard to realize both from a technological and cost standpoint. With the current number of athletes on course at Ironman events it's maybe harsh to expect everyone to fully comply to the rules, especially just after T1, so maybe the drafting rules need to be revised a bit as well. With a smart algo the rules can be more dynamic, so blatant drafting is punished harder than someone who takes a couple of seconds too long to finish an overtake action.

Yes in heavy climbing there should not be drafting rules, also naturally in tight corners or 180 degree turns rules can not apply even now

It seems like WTC racers are getting the best of both worlds now. Aero bars, disc wheels and drafting. Would times get faster or slower if WTC went draft legal but prohibited aero bars and disc wheels?

Umm, I for one get a little nervous when I hear Vichy is getting strict. Vichy has a bit of a history.

Faster.. Way fasfer especially on the run..

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Debating which race to do this year and this thread makes me sad. Feels like to get a real crack at an honest KQ you need to do a non-flat course...

Out curiosity, has any thought been put into a wave system that includes a KQ wave? E.g. if you want to qualify for Kona, go in a special wave near the front - might be easier to police if everyone is together. Not thought about it at length, just curious what the people thought

Drafting will ALWAYS happen on virtually EVERY course and has ALWAYS happened in the almost 40 years since IM began.
None of the solutions I've seen proposed will make much difference, there's just too little chance of being caught.

They may as well make it legal because 90% (at least) of drafters cannot be penalized whether it's intentional or not.
Might as well get used to it.

No disagreement, but the pictures above would be more telling if you knew at what point they were taking. For example, the one from IMCOZ appears to be right as you come out of T1 onto the main highway. Well, yeah, you can get a photo like that at mile 1 (or less) of every IM. More telling is what it looks like 20, 40, 60, and 80 miles down the road. And having done COZ in both 2012 and 2013, I saw rampant draft packs on the east side of the island on every loop (although I hear they are enforcing it better now).

Seeing this thread again, I remembered something else about that Barcelona course. The majority of the bike course road has roundabouts every couple of km. You can't *quite* ride through them at full speed. So it has a compression effect on riders, making it even harder for the strongest to ride off the front, and creating more packs.

Copenhagen had a sub 10hrs wave this year. It went off right behind the pros. Great idea.