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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Jim Martin wrote:
noofus wrote:
logella wrote:
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Are loops within the Woodlands a viable option?


It's certainly doable using The Woodlands marathon course or some modification thereof. It'd be a clusterfuck traffic/commuinty relations-wise but it could certainly be done if they wanted to. From a rider perspective it wouldn't actually be that bad a course. I think it'd be kind of fun as it's something that I ride on a regular basis as a normal 25-ish mile ride from my house or from the office. It'd have a mix of flats (most of the course), rollers (Flintridge) and as hills with descents (as much as you can expect for around here) along Kuykendahl.


I am a fan of muli-lap courses anyway as the logistics becomes quite a bit easier. Obviously you don't want to make the laps too small as things get a bit screwey and crowded when the front of the race runs into the back. But doing 4x27 mile laps would make neutral support, aid stations, medical support, etc all much easier to manage.


Aid stations might be easier to manage, but I think that they would be far more dangerous when the front racers (doing 4:30 to 4:50 bike splits) are coming through on lap 4 and there are people doing 8 hour bike splits stopping to get bananas.

The aid stations on the run at IMTX are a good example of where multi loop courses present challenges. If you are a 9 to 11 hour finisher, your last lap on the run course there, you will be deciding if your fueling needs are important enough to stop and wait in line, they were that crowded last year.


That's always my concern. You have the fastest guys pushing 30mph, and the back end doing 15mph and stopping at aide stations. You'd almost need to set-up separate "lanes" for riders on their 3rd & 4th laps.

Another options might be offering an early start for faster athletes and have stricter time cut-offs for an official finish to prevent slower athletes for entering that wave. Honestly, I just assume start at 6AM if I'm a sub 11 athlete. Should be just enough daylight by 6AM.

If you were able to close 2 lanes, then loops 1 and 2 you ride on the right lane 3 and 4 on the left lane. Aid stations would be set up on each side and you only access the left side aid station with your left hand on loop 3/4. I believe the issue at IM Arizona on an out and back course on loop 3 is you have riders going both ways and no where to pass because each side has only a single lane. Same problem IMLP used to have in the first 10 years on the Hasleton single lane out and back when slow swimming fast bikers had to pass fast swimming slow bikers with only 1 lane of riding each way and no shoulder either. We also have the same problem at IM Tremblant on loop1 just past the 30K out and back. On the way out it is 2 lanes (technically only 1 lane as the other is supposed to be for emergency vehicles, but riders spread out). On the way back after 30K, the slow swimming fast bikers have to pass the fast swimming slow bikers which makes for some tight passing and pack formation.

I have talked to Jimmy Riccitello about this numerous time at different venues....you just need 2 lanes of 1 way traffic and MOST of the drafting problems and speed differential problems get instantly resolved....the honest guys stay honest (which is most of the field). Put the same people on single lane and they see their KQ slots riding up the road in a 3 man formation and they latch on and 3 becomes 5 which becomes 8 which suddenly turns into 20.

If IM Texas went to an "inside Woodlands" loop course, hopefully they can get 2 lanes connecting back to itself at the 28 mile point with mainly right hand turns. Don't know what is feasible, but if they could pull something like that off, it would be pretty awesome.

At Tremblant when they close an entire lane of the highway, what they do is divert vehicle traffic to single lanes on the other side just like 2 lane Highways do for construction. Traffic is inconvenienced, but it flows and keeps the race course liberated of irate traffic separated only by cones.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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noofus wrote:
Is grabbing water a problem? Or just food/other items?

I always carry my fuel and salt with me and just rely on water on-course.

3000 people, hot, humid, at 4:00 the 10 hour guys are trying to finish strong, the 13 hour guys are trying to fuel up for the final push and the 15 hour guys are walking already.

Being able to reliably and quickly get anything is impossible. It might happen, but you can't count on it, especially in that "if I stop I may not start up again" type of pain you experience in the last 10k.

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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Jim Martin wrote:
noofus wrote:
Is grabbing water a problem? Or just food/other items?

I always carry my fuel and salt with me and just rely on water on-course.


3000 people, hot, humid, at 4:00 the 10 hour guys are trying to finish strong, the 13 hour guys are trying to fuel up for the final push and the 15 hour guys are walking already.

Being able to reliably and quickly get anything is impossible. It might happen, but you can't count on it, especially in that "if I stop I may not start up again" type of pain you experience in the last 10k.

Hmm. Maybe I just need to be a bit rude and grab stuff. Looking for a strong <10 here.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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noofus wrote:
Jim Martin wrote:
noofus wrote:
Is grabbing water a problem? Or just food/other items?

I always carry my fuel and salt with me and just rely on water on-course.


3000 people, hot, humid, at 4:00 the 10 hour guys are trying to finish strong, the 13 hour guys are trying to fuel up for the final push and the 15 hour guys are walking already.

Being able to reliably and quickly get anything is impossible. It might happen, but you can't count on it, especially in that "if I stop I may not start up again" type of pain you experience in the last 10k.


Hmm. Maybe I just need to be a bit rude and grab stuff. Looking for a strong <10 here.

I did 10:04 last year on a sub par execution. It will take more than rude, it will take physical contact to move people out of the way to get to the table in the later stages of your race. Up to you, make your best plan and execute it (assuming that we are racing at all).

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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rumors are option 3,Grand parkway, route have been denied

for everybody interested here is the best option left, this would be option 2 they presented
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/1027366403


for people talking about laps inside the woodlands, this is about the best I could come up with, 4 loops around the woodlands,
FYI this would completely shut out the woodlands from the outside world during the bike course, and will not happen, I can not see the township letting this race happen all inside the woodlands
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/1027342149

yes there are other routes and different roads in the woodlands, but you would just add more turns and then people are just slowing down and speeding up more around those turns
Last edited by: trifantasy: Mar 30, 16 10:33
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what they will do.

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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i do not see them having a race without a full bike course, all of the other races have been cancelled or shorted legs because of weather. I can not see WTC saying you will be doing a swim run 5 weeks out from the race, shorten course no idea on that one, they are not even exploring short course ideas so i would say no to this too. it is either full course or cancelled race in my mind
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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wow! if that happens man that would be a difficult pill to swallow for those in the race.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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As I mentioned earlier a tweaked Woodlands marathon course would be doable. Not ideal but workable.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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well hopefully they work out something
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
As I mentioned earlier a tweaked Woodlands marathon course would be doable. Not ideal but workable.

realistically yes there is 112 miles to cycle inside the woodlands limits but it is not doable or workable
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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Anything is possible.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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trifantasy wrote:
logella wrote:
As I mentioned earlier a tweaked Woodlands marathon course would be doable. Not ideal but workable.


realistically yes there is 112 miles to cycle inside the woodlands limits but it is not doable or workable

WTC's attorney would not allow this. There would be so many collisions. The people who live there would also blow a gasket.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
Anything is possible.

I see what you did there.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.

Worst case they should be able to do some sort of shortened bike even if it is 10 miles total! I don't see a reason for nothing at all since the existing bike course already goes through Woodlands....if they have a shortened bike, it would be all closed up in the duration of a sprint or olympic tri anyway.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.


Worst case they should be able to do some sort of shortened bike even if it is 10 miles total! I don't see a reason for nothing at all since the existing bike course already goes through Woodlands....if they have a shortened bike, it would be all closed up in the duration of a sprint or olympic tri anyway.

10 mile bike? I could get on board with that. I'd spend the rest of my life being able to claim a sub 5hr ironman! <pink>



-Andrew
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.


Worst case they should be able to do some sort of shortened bike even if it is 10 miles total! I don't see a reason for nothing at all since the existing bike course already goes through Woodlands....if they have a shortened bike, it would be all closed up in the duration of a sprint or olympic tri anyway.

I will let you tell Andrew Starykowicz the IMTX course is 10 miles long
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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trifantasy wrote:
rumors are option 3,Grand parkway, route have been denied

for everybody interested here is the best option left, this would be option 2 they presented
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/1027366403

Man, the course passes less than 1/4 mi from my house at the 17.8 mi mark. While that would be cool to have the neighborhood folks out cheering, it would by kinda scary to race on those particular roads. The roads themselves aren't too bad, but some are busy 2 lane roads with A LOT of entranceways from gas stations/neighborhoods, etc. I would imagine there would be quite a few no passing zones. It also goes over some train tracks. In fact, the course itself would go over tracks at least 3 times. Wonder if they coordinate with the rail lines to prevent stoppages.
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [trifantasy] [ In reply to ]
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trifantasy wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.


Worst case they should be able to do some sort of shortened bike even if it is 10 miles total! I don't see a reason for nothing at all since the existing bike course already goes through Woodlands....if they have a shortened bike, it would be all closed up in the duration of a sprint or olympic tri anyway.


I will let you tell Andrew Starykowicz the IMTX course is 10 miles long


No different than when they shorted IMLP swim to one loop due to lightening in 2014 or Melbourne swim in 2013. Shortened courses have happened before when the full course was not possible. If it can be done for the swim, it can apply the bike. I just chose 10 miles as a random extreme example, but maybe they try to make in 56 miles with multi loops so they can shut down and not inconvenience the community and still have a bike course. I don't know, i am just throwing out what may be possible given past record.

Also IMNZ 2006 was a 56 miles bike + run duathlon. I don't recall if the run was 13 or 26 miles, but the entire swim was cancelled and half the bike
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Mar 30, 16 12:37
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
trifantasy wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Do you think they would cancel it altogether or proceed with an swim-marathon? I fully expect that if they can't offer the full enchilada, they will try to serve up a shortened bike leg, and if even that is not possible, they will cut the bike out, but still press with the swim run. And just like IMFL 2014 (no swim) you will be called an ironman when you finish. They will still award finishers hats and medals, the promised slots, etc., and keep the registration fees - no money back. As miserable a solution as it is, that would at least offer something to those with nonrefundable flights, nonrefundable airfare, and no opportunity for another race this year. If it comes to that, some folks will not start as a result, but I would expect most will due the lack of any good alternatives. But sales of finisher's merchandise and 2017 registrations will take a beating.


Worst case they should be able to do some sort of shortened bike even if it is 10 miles total! I don't see a reason for nothing at all since the existing bike course already goes through Woodlands....if they have a shortened bike, it would be all closed up in the duration of a sprint or olympic tri anyway.


I will let you tell Andrew Starykowicz the IMTX course is 10 miles long


No different than when they shorted IMLP swim to one loop due to lightening in 2014 or Melbourne swim in 2013. Shortened courses have happened before when the full course was not possible. If it can be done for the swim, it can apply the bike. I just chose 10 miles as a random extreme example, but maybe they try to make in 56 miles with multi loops so they can shut down and not inconvenience the community and still have a bike course. I don't know, i am just throwing out what may be possible given past record.

understood, but all of those were weather related, morning of the race calls, this would be a 4-5 week out shorten course call
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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [jpk_phx] [ In reply to ]
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I think you vastly misunderstand what WTC's in-house counsel is for (hint: licensing).

A four-loop course is certainly plausible with athlete saturation levels. I don't think it'd be particularly awesome for all involved (the front end of the field would certainly have the worst experience on the bike, IMO). But I think they'd much rather that than a cancellation, whereby much of the event costs are already sunk.

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
No different than when they shorted IMLP swim to one loop due to lightening in 2014 or Melbourne swim in 2013. Shortened courses have happened before when the full course was not possible. If it can be done for the swim, it can apply the bike. I just chose 10 miles as a random extreme example, but maybe they try to make in 56 miles with multi loops so they can shut down and not inconvenience the community and still have a bike course. I don't know, i am just throwing out what may be possible given past record.

Also IMNZ 2006 was a 56 miles bike + run duathlon. I don't recall if the run was 13 or 26 miles, but the entire swim was cancelled and half the bike

Dev-

IMNZ 2006 was 56/13.1...plus IMNZ 2012 was run as a 70.3 on Sunday, after Saturday's 140.6 was cancelled due to "weather bomb"

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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With just over a month until the race, the organizers have identified two potential alternative bike courses and are hoping to get them approved by authorities in time. The first option would go south through Harris County and a small part of Waller County before heading back to The Woodlands. The second option would also take the cyclists south, but then put them on the Grand Parkway for two loops, from the Interstate 45 interchange to U.S. 290 and back. The Grand Parkway route would close westbound lanes, but eastbound lanes would remain open to traffic, Langen said.
But for either of these routes to be allowed, the race organizers must get the necessary permission and traffic control help from the respective authorities.

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Re: IMTX Status in doubt? [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
I think you vastly misunderstand what WTC's in-house counsel is for (hint: licensing).

A four-loop course is certainly plausible with athlete saturation levels. I don't think it'd be particularly awesome for all involved (the front end of the field would certainly have the worst experience on the bike, IMO). But I think they'd much rather that than a cancellation, whereby much of the event costs are already sunk.

I'm an attorney who represents event organizers when athletes are injured, so I have some understanding of how this works.

Are you suggesting WTC does not have an attorney who advises them on the risk associated with certain aspects of their events? I did not say in-house counsel. They likely have in-house and external counsel for all aspects of their business.
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