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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Joss1965] [ In reply to ]
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Joss1965 wrote:
I can see why people obsess about Kona. It's so damn hard to qualify for that it makes it a real and genuine age group World Champs, unlike, for example the ITU age group worlds.
I agree with you for the most part(especially ITU Duathlon/Aquathon/Long Course/Aquabike/etc aren't hard to get onto)... there are some that do get in that I've seen fail to get ITU (Olympic/Sprint) slots though... specifically at Lousiville last year. So you could get lucky at a race when Kona qualifiers are tapering or recovering from Kona itself.

For the most part Kona is super hard to get into and with a stacked field I think you have to be both genetically gifted and put in the training required to qualify vs. 50+ other competitors doing the same.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [HardlyTrying] [ In reply to ]
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HardlyTrying wrote:
btw, I listened to the podcast yesterday and I'm pretty sure he said "most" and not "anyone" each time he talked about it.

I think that's the real takeaway here. It isn't that literally anyone can qualify. It's more that if you look at the bell curve of "genetic potential" (whatever that means) then it isn't just the upper 2% or 5% that are capable of getting there. Most people have the "potential", maybe 70% or 80% of us, but it's obviously going to be a lot easier for some than for others. But most of us won't, because it's frackin hard, or we choose to do other things that are more important to us rather than spend every minute of the day watching our diet, training, sleeping, testing, etc etc that it would take to get there.

The message is that you probably can KQ if you really want it. It's not like making the Olympic team, where you have to have a perfect storm of genetics, opportunity, youth, desire and luck just to make it there.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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Schnellinger wrote:
Without a job > optimal job? That was covered in the premise. A good coach covers 5 and 6. Without a job you should be able to get in a fair amount of training while your kids and wife are away for job/school. With a job it gets more difficult :)

Do you think an open 2.30 marathon and a 9.30 Ironman are equally good performance wise?

1.02-5.00- 3.25 strikes me as a lot easier than 2.30 for an open, but I'm chubby so I could be biased.

Yes approximately. Consider that a top pro runs sub 8 IM and top pro runs a sub 2:05 marathon, a 9:30 feels about a 2:30-2:40 marathoning.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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1) Podcasts are REALLY hard to monetize - in other words, make money as a standalone venture. Unless you are a Tony Robbins level of "celebrity", they really are best utilized by others as a promo for other services that you offer. Content Marketing is the term that best applies. Triathlon is such a niche market, that really it's ONLY people like a Bob Babbitt or to a lesser degree a Taren Gasell, that is having a reasonable go at this. And even here - you need to have this content VERY professionally done, and that takes a HUGE amount of time out of your day/week.

2) As to the OP's post about KQ for under 40 men. I'd say that it's not that far off. You would need to look at something under 9:30 as having a good shot. I say this from, experience as an athlete in that range myself, coaching and advising a number of others, and observing and watching many IM races.

Many here will scoff at the idea that sub-9:30, is doable by many - but the very fact that it has become SO competitive, is a testament to the fact that it is doable by more than you think. If you break it down and look at the balanced time slit goals it's a 1:00 swim/ 5:00 - 5:15 bike/3:00 - 3:15 run. Many here will think this crazy "fast" but it really is not. For athletes who have been in triathlon for many years, this is actually the average training paces for them - in other words over the course of a training year, on average - this is the pace they are holding for much of their training.

I know crazy! But, another key detail, that rarely get's looked at, is the number of years it's taken these athletes to reach this level. My guess is that if you looked at ALL KQ athletes who have gone under 9:30, is that they have been training at a high level for between 5 - 10 years. Sure there are the exceptions, and forums and social media are always quick to point out the extreme exceptions - "My friend trained for 2 years and KQ'd". In fact, I work with an athlete that did it in 1 year!! But if you take a deep dive into those exceptions, there is always details that but them in the Extreme Exception category - forget about them! ALL others are working hard, putting in the time, and keep doing it year after year, after year.

The problem with many who are trying to KG that I see - an unwillingness to look/think and look long term (5 - 10 years) and to adopt some "unorthodox" training strategies. ( I say unorthodox - but they really are just training - 101, but that's why they are "unorthodox - they are just really simple).


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
Schnellinger wrote:
Without a job > optimal job? That was covered in the premise. A good coach covers 5 and 6. Without a job you should be able to get in a fair amount of training while your kids and wife are away for job/school. With a job it gets more difficult :)

Do you think an open 2.30 marathon and a 9.30 Ironman are equally good performance wise?

1.02-5.00- 3.25 strikes me as a lot easier than 2.30 for an open, but I'm chubby so I could be biased.


Yes approximately. Consider that a top pro runs sub 8 IM and top pro runs a sub 2:05 marathon, a 9:30 feels about a 2:30-2:40 marathoning.

I am a low-9s IM guy... and I can guarantee you I will never run a 2:30 marathon. I've gone sub-3 for a marathon, and MAYBE if I really put my mind to it I could get myself under 2:50 (probably by quitting tri for running only), but 2:30 feels entirely out of reach for me.

Those don't seem at all equivalent.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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Because you’re not a runner.
A 2:30-2:40 marathoner will say he will never be able to run a low 9’s IM.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:

I know crazy! But, another key detail, that rarely get's looked at, is the number of years it's taken these athletes to reach this level. My guess is that if you looked at ALL KQ athletes who have gone under 9:30, is that they have been training at a high level for between 5 - 10 years.

I have no data to back it up, but I'm not sure that's true. There was a ST thread a few years ago for qualifiers and their path to qualification. Many(by my sketchy memory, the majority) qualified in their first or second attempt.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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a 9:30 feels about a 2:30-2:40 marathoning.


For me anyway - that was about right

I came close to breaking 9 hours a few times and ran 3:00 flat marathon splits in those IM races. While being a full-on triathlete, I did run a few standalone marathons, and my best time was 2:35.

I never really dedicated myself to have a really good and long total focus on a marathon ( I would say a full year) - my previous PB's when I was only a runner, indicated that I may have been able to get under 2:30.

What I learned from the above is the ONLY thing that IM Marathon running and standalone Marathon running share is that they are the same distance. They are VERY different entities after that in terms of training and execution.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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If you're a 2.30 marathoner, I don't think it would take you many years to develop a 4.45-3.00 combo. Getting under 9.30 then shouldn't be the toughest ask :)


And to the 100kg guy:

Getting the right body composition isn't just a question of getting lean. You have to get rid of muscles on you're upper body if you want to become the best triathlete you can possible be.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you @dgutstadt for the very kind words. Truly appreciated.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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bespoke wrote:
Agreed- in all my dealings with AC I have been super impressed -he is one of (too few) coaches I think who would genuinely add value to you

And he certainly does not need the publicity - I have been trying to be coached him him for 3-4 years now but he has no slots
And he’s that good (IMO) that I would rather be self coached in the meantime....
Maybe next year is my year!

Thank you, bespoke. Truly appreciated. You have moved a couple of spots up the wait list with comments like that Smile See you in 2020!

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Schnellinger] [ In reply to ]
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It’s a lot harder than you think. If you’re at your potential at 2:30 that means you’re a scrawny dude that runs ~80-100 mpw.

You have to learn to swim and get that down to where you can swim 1:30/100m for 4K which is a big ask. It takes years.

You have to bike at minimum a 5:10-4:50, and that takes years if you are starting off.

By the time you’ve done the above 2, you are only running 40-50 mpw and you’re 10-15lbs heavier and you’re lucky if you run a 2:50-3:00

The best pros are only able to run a 2:40is on their best day. If you can do that in an IM, you have genetics on your side. Suffice it to say, not everyone can.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Alan does read the forum so he might show up here to explain..


When he was part of Endurance Corner there was a similar article which I saved, had a more realistic estimate. "Anyone" is pretty bold.

For people who like to read, video is way too slow (Brent Simmons). Podcasts have the same problem.

So here's some plain text.


Although the date in the URL shows 2016 I believe the article is from 2011 or so.


https://alancouzens.com/...lan-for-the-realist/


"The vast majority of folks respond to training load quite similarly and most of us have the potential to reach a very high level of fitness. As I suggested in the previous article on athletic types, for 70% of folks, if they do the work, Kona is within reach but setting up your life to do the work is another matter and for many it is far easier to attribute the limiter to genetics than to make the required change.


Merely setting up your life to have the space to fit in five months’ worth of 18-20 hour weeks of training in your Kona build isn’t enough. The realist knows that even with the life space to fit the training and sufficient attention given to recovery, you can’t just get up off the couch and throw down one 18-20 hour training week after another. You also need a fitness “base” to pull this off. So you’ll want to factor in a period of preparatory “training to train” weeks, progressively building up the fitness to tolerate the back to back big weeks that will comprise your Kona build.

Based on my experience, most folks coming in from normal active fitness levels are going to need to both be generally fresh and healthy (that is, come into the hard training unloaded), and have a base fitness of five to six months of preparatory training in the 12-15 hour range to tolerate those 18-20 hour weeks of your “get to Kona” push. If you’re coming from below normal fitness (less than 45 VO2) you’ll probably need another five to six months of preparatory “get in shape” work before even beginning the “train to train” period.

Additionally, we both know that your chances of putting together 20 or more back to back weeks in the 18-20 hour range without recovery isn’t good. You’re going to get tired and need some recovery weeks sprinkled in to your Kona build. In fact, if you manage a ratio of 3:1 loading to recovery weeks in the context of a 9-5 job and family life without getting sick or injured you’ll be doing very well! So that five months of specific training, more realistically becomes six or seven months.

Adding it all up, the realist should be planning for:
Six to 12 months of uninterrupted, consistent “basic training” to get ready to train for the event.
Six to seven months of focused “specific training” directed specifically towards your Kona push.

You need both the fitness and a good day on an appropriate course to pull it off. In other words, you may need to put together more than one of these builds before high fitness and a good day coincide! "



All of this made it clear to me I'd never have time to qualify for Kona ;-)

The general point is the same though - commit to the training and you can do more than you'd think..


Thanks Doug!

You're right, I think I said something along the lines of...

"Most athletes, physiologically, have the ability to get to Kona qualifying fitness."

"All" may be a stretch. That said, to date, after working with Ironman athletes for more than 15 years now, I have not had one athlete put in 1000 hours over a year and not qualify for Kona within that year. Not one. Maybe my sample is skewed and I've just never come across the athletes at the absolute shallow end of the genetic pool as yet. But I doubt that, as I'm nearing 200 athletes that I've had the good fortune to work with over that time period.

Irrespective, you nailed it on the head with "commit to the training and you can do more than you'd think." I'm 100% confident in that truth.

Best regards,

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Jun 21, 19 8:32
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
That said, to date, after working with Ironman athletes for more than 15 years now, I have not had one athlete put in 1000 hours over a year and not qualify for Kona within that year. Not one. Maybe my sample is skewed and I've just never come across the athletes at the absolute shallow end of the genetic pool as yet. But I doubt that, as I'm nearing 200 athletes that I've had the good fortune to work with over that time period.

Irrespective, you nailed it on the head with "commit to the training and you can do more than you'd think." I'm 100% confident in that truth.

I'm going with skewed sample ;-)
by the time an athlete gets to be coached by you, they have already invested a lot of time and effort into optimizing their training and life.. and they have decent base fitness..
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
That said, to date, after working with Ironman athletes for more than 15 years now, I have not had one athlete put in 1000 hours over a year and not qualify for Kona within that year. Not one. Maybe my sample is skewed and I've just never come across the athletes at the absolute shallow end of the genetic pool as yet. But I doubt that, as I'm nearing 200 athletes that I've had the good fortune to work with over that time period.

Irrespective, you nailed it on the head with "commit to the training and you can do more than you'd think." I'm 100% confident in that truth.


I'm going with skewed sample ;-)
by the time an athlete gets to be coached by you, they have already invested a lot of time and effort into optimizing their training and life.. and they have decent base fitness..


Smile Possibly. Though, many are further from life and training 'optimization' at the start than you might expect. In the meantime, I'll wait for the hordes of genetically limited athletes who have developed themselves & their lives to the point of being able to put in a true 1000 hour year and not achieve their Kona qualification goal to chime in..... Smile

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Jun 21, 19 10:26
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it needs to be said that 1000 hours is a pretty big number. Even if simple day-to-day scheduling wasn't an issue, don't you think there's a genetic component to being able to average 20 training hours a week for an entire year without getting sick, injured, or burned out? (Seriously asking, not challenging your assertion.)
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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This guy has obviously never visited a Six Flags (or equivalent) amusement park.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [jeffa] [ In reply to ]
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It is a big number, but I think it is doable. According to training peaks I have 962 hours over the last 365 days. Not all the way to a 1000, but close enough to say that if I didn't have job and studies during the year I would have been able to hit it :)

BTW: I am the guy who lost the genetic lottery, so I am by no means special.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [jeffa] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it needs to be said that 1000 hours is a pretty big number. Even if simple day-to-day scheduling wasn't an issue, don't you think there's a genetic component to being able to average 20 training hours a week for an entire year without getting sick, injured, or burned out? (Seriously asking, not challenging your assertion.)


Beyond a certain volume of training, durability starts to become REALLY important.

Success at IM is really about sustained volume of training over a long period of time.

Durability IS very individualized - in other words, some can handle that volume with minimal to know issues, others can't, even with all kinds of maintenance work.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [jeffa] [ In reply to ]
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jeffa wrote:
I don't think it needs to be said that 1000 hours is a pretty big number. Even if simple day-to-day scheduling wasn't an issue, don't you think there's a genetic component to being able to average 20 training hours a week for an entire year without getting sick, injured, or burned out? (Seriously asking, not challenging your assertion.)

It's absurd to think that you HAVE to put in close to 1000 or whatever max hours to ballpark ability and potential. For the less gifted (most) you can do it.on less than a third of that easily just by looking at their rate of improvement and projected asymptote of performance ceiling due to diminishing returns.

The reason us non kq talent don't put in 1000 hrs is often because it's obvious even to us that its.never gonna happen. You don't need to be a coach to realize that when you train 12 hrs a week and can't even make the AG podium at the small local ag tri despite 3+ yrs.of training, that kq is a pipe dream.

Yes there are some for whom it's unclear. I MIGHT be able to kq if I had unlimited time and money but i.still wouldn't bet on it. And I score Usat 85 which is better than the large majority of triathletes .

I'm sure these coaches would look at most ag results with training and say differently. And for sure, these guys are getting the most motivated ag groupers - I can't even commit even enough time to hire them so they are likely dealing with usat90 all Americans or close.
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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As many others had already pointed out, a 3:00 - 3:15 IM run generally points to an open marathon in the 2:30-2:40 range. Wanna guess how many PURE runners in the M40-45 group can actually bang it out? Not a whole lot, and those who do are for most part NOT going to apply themselves to triathlon.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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As many others had already pointed out, a 3:00 - 3:15 IM run generally points to an open marathon in the 2:30-2:40 range. Wanna guess how many PURE runners in the M40-45 group can actually bang it out? Not a whole lot, and those who do are for most part NOT going to apply themselves to triathlon.


2:30 - 3:00 hrs in many big marathons is like no-mans land.

The elites all come in the winners and then those who have blown up and struggled home in 2:20+, but then their is almost NO ONE coming in until you get close to 3:00 hrs. It's an interesting phenomenon.

If you run one of the really big city marathons, and you run, say 2:35 - 2:40, you may run the bulk of the race, a race with 20,000+ runners, all on your own!!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [jeffa] [ In reply to ]
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jeffa wrote:
I don't think it needs to be said that 1000 hours is a pretty big number. Even if simple day-to-day scheduling wasn't an issue, don't you think there's a genetic component to being able to average 20 training hours a week for an entire year without getting sick, injured, or burned out? (Seriously asking, not challenging your assertion.)


Hey Jeff,

I wouldn't argue that there isn't a genetic component to durability but my experience has been that the athletes who need to do more are also the athletes who are able to tolerate more, i.e. 'talented' athletes have a tendency to be fragile, while athletes who lose the genetic lottery on the former tend to be more hardy. I see this as a 'thoroughbred v workhorse' classification.

Still, the above is theoretical for most as it's not genetics but lifestyle that limits most athletes from a durability perspective..
* Excessive intensity/inadequate base
* Poor nutrition
* Inadequate sleep
* Taking on too many life stressors.

When athletes are unable to hit relatively high annual training loads, 9 times out of 10, one or more of the above factors are at play.

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Jun 21, 19 12:19
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Aren't you the one who claimed he had done everything imaginable to break 19 in a 5k without succeeding? Maybe If you tried putting in the hours you would have succeeded :)
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Re: Anyone can KQ. Anyone.... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
jeffa wrote:
I don't think it needs to be said that 1000 hours is a pretty big number. Even if simple day-to-day scheduling wasn't an issue, don't you think there's a genetic component to being able to average 20 training hours a week for an entire year without getting sick, injured, or burned out? (Seriously asking, not challenging your assertion.)


It's absurd to think that you HAVE to put in close to 1000 or whatever max hours to ballpark ability and potential. For the less gifted (most) you can do it.on less than a third of that easily just by looking at their rate of improvement and projected asymptote of performance ceiling due to diminishing returns.

The reason us non kq talent don't put in 1000 hrs is often because it's obvious even to us that its.never gonna happen. You don't need to be a coach to realize that when you train 12 hrs a week and can't even make the AG podium at the small local ag tri despite 3+ yrs.of training, that kq is a pipe dream.

Yes there are some for whom it's unclear. I MIGHT be able to kq if I had unlimited time and money but i.still wouldn't bet on it. And I score Usat 85 which is better than the large majority of triathletes .

I'm sure these coaches would look at most ag results with training and say differently. And for sure, these guys are getting the most motivated ag groupers - I can't even commit even enough time to hire them so they are likely dealing with usat90 all Americans or close.

I've agreed with you every time you've commented on subjects like this. Some coaches get to select their charges (athletes). Olympic coaches are an extreme example. Kinda fun to think about. Like asking who's the slowest swimmer on the US Olympic team. Or, the "worst" musician in the San Francisco Orchestra, or "skinniest" one at the fat farm (sorry, not PC). Just wanting to do triathlons is a degree of self selection - but, WANTING something and piling on the most perfect work in the world are sometimes not enough when you look at 200ish slots for Kona (world wide, my AG M55), less really when you subtract out legacy, sponsorship deals, etc. My diet is OK, but I have a couple of beers most nights - sleep less than I should, etc. I make up for that with disgusting workouts and winning the genetic lottery. It's not fair. However, I didn't (yet) with the lottery (the one with millions of $'s) Oh well.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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