Triathlon Forum

Nov 5, 23 21:56

Post #26 of 43 (1044 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

-sat COMING is 3hr ride with 6x3mins v02 within. rest z2

So 18mins of work and the rest is Z2?

this week....yep

hmmm.. My best Busso bike splits mid 2.2x have all been off the back of programs with fairly hard bike sessions. 3+ hour rides with quite a few efforts, generally feeling cooked after each ride, much like a 70.3 race. Pretty different to what you're doing. I'm not a coach, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but I'd be wanting to be doing a lot more than 18m of efforts unless this is a recovery week?

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 5, 23 22:00

Post #27 of 43 (1035 views)

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Amnesia

Nov 5, 23 22:01

Post #28 of 43 (1035 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

Amnesia wrote:

Knowing the Busso course pretty well, are you training to power at the moment? If so, how accurate is your FTP?
I know each coach has their own methodologies, but there is a skill to be able to ride to your targeted race power on the day that requires some practice at riding at that race power beforehand.
My coach would often sprinkle in race paced efforts on my long rides leading into race day. Eg 3X 20 mins at 85% FTP with 5 min recovery...(85% FTP being the generally agreed power target for 70.3 races, some will push a bit more, some a bit less).
There is something to be said for the specificity of learning to ride at the actual pace/power you will be wanting to hit on the day.
4 weeks out from Busso you realistically have two long rides left so these would be the key rides to do this on....depending on your recovery profile you could also do a longish ride one week out and have a shorter taper....but I would be nervous if I was not doing anything specific for race day in these sessions...

For reference, we have been doing a *little* tempo, just not as much as im used to. Youre right we have 2 long rides left. One is described below. EG:

-sat COMING is 3hr ride with 6x3mins v02 within. rest z2
- sat just gone, was z2 3 hours z2 however last 30mins tempo with 6km run off the bike. (i was naughty did 2hrs worth of tempo, not 30mins)
-sat previous i raced a race sunday so no hard sat ride.
- sat before was 3 hours, with 2x1hr tempo (rest z2)
-sat before was 3hours z2 with 3x30 tempo
-sat before was a race (short)
-sat before was 2hr ride, threshold intervals within

So there hasnt been a huge amount. I often did thur rides up to 2hours all tempo, sat long and all at tempo with small rests. Now, my thur is more sweetspot / v02/ threshold mix.

I can only go with what my coach believes in (very successful coach)...
This last 4 weeks is all about icing on the cake and specificity.....
I am not sure what your tempo work zones are (% FTP)....
If it is your first 70.3 then there is still a fair bit to learn....
And now is not the time to question your coaches approach to things.
Trust the process.
But really start to think about a race day plan....what bike target power you will hold etc....executing a good 70.3 takes some discipline. It is so so easy to go out way to hard on the bike and the run depending on your strengths.

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 5, 23 22:11

Post #29 of 43 (1028 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

I reckon just go with what your coach has set you, see how you go. And as Amnesia said, focus on raceplan, know what HR/Power you need to be at for the bike, know what pace you need to run at, and be disciplined to stick at it. i.e if you're planning on running 4.30 pace and are running at 4.15 as you feel good, have the discipline to slow down. That feeling good stage lasts about 7km. I'm talking from experience here!

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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ivantriker

Nov 5, 23 22:14

Post #30 of 43 (1027 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

Hi all
I have busso in about 4 weeks and have been with a coach for 6 months. Have been mainly doing short course and have mentioned that for a 70.3 I have found tempo work really helpful. Said coach hasn’t done me wrong thus far and I’m doing ok in the short stuff. But have noticed hardly any tempo type of work in my bike workouts. As an example this week I have 1min on/off vo2 work, a longer ride with a descending set of high sweet spot/ sub threshold ( 10, 8, 6, 4 so not a lot and not hard) and a 3 hour z2 ride with 6x3 mins vo2 mixed within. Now this isn’t to say I have avoided tempo, I did 2 hours of it last week in total amongst other zones. I just figured zone 3 would be more prominent for 70.3 ?
And yes I will ask him the why’s etc, I guess I’m asking if u can actually race a 70.3 bike leg without a lot of tempo at all? When I coached myself I did a lot of it because I figured it’s a specificity thing ?
Anyone actually do fk all tempo or not a lot for half iron ? Signed, slightly panicking

your coach should know what you need, if he has determined that for your profile, your strength and weakness that is your training for succeed in the 70.3 you need to be confindent in the plan

the bike leg of the 70.3 could be done with an if of 0.8 to 0.9 easily. Your z2 would be up to 0.75, and your sweet spot between 0.9 to 0.95, and you have also training to mantain z2 rides with vo2max efforts in between

so you would be more than prepared to ride the bike leg. But Z3 tempos may not add nothing to your training, only to coach you to have experience in the race pace

sweet spot = high z3

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 5, 23 22:17

Post #31 of 43 (1025 views)

This is what we have (ignore the power, thats from someone who weighs 50kg!)

Last edited by: zedzded: Nov 5, 23 22:18

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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ivantriker

Nov 5, 23 22:18

Post #32 of 43 (1023 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

I’m making gains in short course and my run as well. However this is the first hit out with longer stuff so will see I guess.

I have a response

Hey mate it’s a really good question and well worth asking!
Anyway I asked if we don’t do much tempo because it is sometimes seen as a grey zone’

His response :

‘….. tempo is pretty much grey zone where we don’t necessarily want to spend too much time. It’s useful for specific training and for dialling in intensities and “getting used” to race pace, but it’s not essential to train a lot of tempo to be able to race at tempo on race day. It’s also pretty fatiguing to accumulate too much time there, even though it may not really seem like it at the time. Hopefully doing less tempo helps you go into race day fresher compared to previously.

Physiologically we get better training benefits from working sun-threshold/threshold/vo2 which is why you’ll see more of that in there’

fully agree with him

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 5, 23 22:51

Post #33 of 43 (1008 views)

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

If I’m running 4:15 off the bike then I have way too much energy lol

Also that workout doesn’t seem to bad at all 10x6 tempo with 3 mins easy between, I’d take that!

Also I agree amnesia high z2 can sort of be not far off z3 In itself. In training I know my hr and power with my history of long course. My legs tend to go before my hr goes so I know what I can hold and run ok after a heavy diet of tempo. Will hold the same and see what happens. Here’s hoping for calm winds and a flat ocean on a cool day

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Amnesia

Nov 6, 23 0:33

Post #34 of 43 (994 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

The 70.3 goes super nice and early so you often miss the worst of the wind and heat! It’s a great course and a great day!

Are you used to racing with power?
I say that as for Busso I set my computer up with %FTP as my top number…aiming to hold 85-88% for the race. Think I have had second fastest bike split in my age group before there…..

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 6, 23 1:27

Post #35 of 43 (974 views)

Amnesia wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

Yep used to power, I have a power range. Last year I was well above that and slogged out a slow 5:23 average km run. And I have had power for years. I should know better. But first 3/4 of the bike, the higher than normal power felt easy. Last 10 kms heading back into town. Uh-oh. Good feelings gone. But yeh, used to power. Need to cool my jets on it and embrace lower power so I can run.
88% is very high ! That’s more my oly pace lol.

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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ivantriker

Nov 6, 23 2:19

Post #36 of 43 (952 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

Amnesia wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

be confidente,
and after the race take conclusions

as I already said, the training plan is ok, you should follow it... if not, change of coach (but the problem is you, not the coach).

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Amnesia

Nov 6, 23 3:02

Post #37 of 43 (941 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

Amnesia wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

Def no recovery, only 2 weeks worth of quality left. And yeh I not sure of the value of vo2 work and then z2. Maybe couple tempo intervals within wouldn’t hurt. I’m going rogue again tho

LOL, if 88% if your Oly pace then your numbers may be a little wrong. Technically an Oly should be around 95-100% of FTP, assuming you can run well off that intensity over that duration!
Good luck, I hope you report back in this thread with a race report.

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]

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kajet

Nov 6, 23 5:00

Post #38 of 43 (904 views)

Amnesia wrote:

IamSpartacus wrote:

88% is very high ! That’s more my oly pace lol.

LOL, if 88% if your Oly pace then your numbers may be a little wrong. Technically an Oly should be around 95-100% of FTP, assuming you can run well off that intensity over that duration!

It's highly individual, but 100% would be a "straight to the ambulance" ride for most and not an intensity pushed off of a hard swim into a 10k run. 95% isn't far off that.

90% is my usual target with a 1:01 to 1:05 duration of effort. For back-of-packers it will likely be even lower.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Last edited by: kajet: Nov 6, 23 5:00

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]

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MrTri123

Nov 6, 23 5:04

Post #39 of 43 (898 views)

Amnesia wrote:

MrTri123 wrote:

2 long rides over the last 4 weeks before a 70.3 is that the usual way of training?

What do you consider a long ride in time?

Intensity?

There are three weekends left before race weekend and for us that would normally be two long ride each weekend with a run off the bike and then generally starting the taper and so not much of a long ride that final weekend pre race.

Long for us would normally be 3.5-4 hours for a 70.3 build-that’s aiming for a race day bike split of around 2:20ish…..

Ok great

Thank you for taking the time to post the detailed information

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]

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mathematics

Nov 6, 23 5:16

Post #40 of 43 (891 views)

Amnesia wrote:

If you're doing in Oly bike (~1h bike) at 100% of your FTP (1h max output) then there's something wrong with you FTP test.

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 9, 23 17:57

Post #41 of 43 (750 views)

IamSpartacus - where are you riding tomorrow? We are doing Joondalup to Muchea if you want to join us, a variety of abilities.

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 9, 23 20:09

Post #42 of 43 (705 views)

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus - where are you riding tomorrow? We are doing Joondalup to Muchea if you want to join us, a variety of abilities.

I’m at the other end ! Mandurah. Cheers for that Invite though! You still group ride for busso training ? Of spread it out a bit so your not quite a peloton?

Re: 70.3 bike training, no tempo work? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]

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Nov 9, 23 21:39

Post #43 of 43 (692 views)

IamSpartacus wrote:

zedzded wrote:

IamSpartacus - where are you riding tomorrow? We are doing Joondalup to Muchea if you want to join us, a variety of abilities.

I’m at the other end ! Mandurah. Cheers for that Invite though! You still group ride for busso training ? Of spread it out a bit so your not quite a peloton?

Ah bit far!

There's a range of abilities, still riding like a peleton, but will split into small groups and the efforts seem to work well. No-one is riding easy for the efforts, stronger guys at the front, others at the back holding on but roughly sticking to power. It's more or less sticking to the plan, just not exactly.