Interesting feedback

ASICS says it is for heel-strikers
And you says it is firm (midfoot ?)
Sam, the tester in the review in post #1, clearly a heel-striker, says also it is firm especially midfoot.

So yes, this is a difference with Hoka.

So, high stack and rocker just to keep the ankle at same angle, but still to heel strike with no mid-foot cushion.

OK, not a shoe for me, most probably. I was hesitating to go Hoka Carbon Rocket, thinking may be not enough mid foot cushion, but I will try them, as apparently they do have mid-foot cushion.

I was expecting ASICS to understand the value of mid foot cushion, and with 30mm+ of stack, it is still not there....

 

Its a heavy $250 brick.

A max runner using boost would weigh like 15oz, that stuff is heavy. The newest Ultra Boost already weighs over 11oz in a size 9.

Sure is. The metaride in Size 11 is 12oz on my scale. For comparison (of two totally different purpose shoes) the Nike 4% is 7.6oz and my everyday Vaporfly is 9.4oz. I give it a week or so before I have metarides for sale.

When you say it is firm, how firm is it ? Can you compare to another shoes ?

Other ASICS such as Nimbus / Cumulus / Kayano ?
Older Pegasus ?
NB 1400 / 1500 / Zante ?

I'm not too worried about weight for shoes I train in. I have a goretex version of a shoe that is pretty heavy but I don't notice it when I'm running.

Racing would be different but for training I want a midsole material that lasts a long time under all parts of the shoe, not just the heel. I also want a lot of rubber under that. So, absolutely, that's going to be heavy.

Any idea about durable max shoes out there? I should of stocked up on Hoka Conquest but can't find them now and they seem to of moved away from full RMAT.

I do some consulting for a large retailer that sells a lot of running shoes. The result of a strange conversation was that I was given a pair of these to try. I took them home yesterday and ran around the block in them with the intention of Sunday being the real test with a 10 mile run. My first thought around the block was holy crap do these feel strange, the rocker is over the top and even though it’s a 0 drop shoe, it doesn’t feel like it at all.

Last night my wife and I went to a concert and I had too much to drink. I woke up this morning and planned on today being a rest day but ended up doing my 10 miler today to clear time for something else tomorrow. So I set out to run on tired legs with a bit of a hang over on strange ass feeling shoes. Typically I wear max cush nueteral trainers, for may years I was strictly asics but moved away in recent years with the glycerin, bondi, and triumph in my rotation. I’m a 260 pound guy who used to weigh over 400 pounds and have done a number of marathons and a couple of ironmans. Most recently I have been running in the vomero 14 and while I love the lower in the vomero I do not like the upper.

In every pair of asics I use the extra eyelets, not for a heel lock, but just as a regular lace pattern. This shoe was no exception. I wear a size 15 and depending on the shoe, a 15 wide. The vomero though for some reason I wore a 14eeee and that worked well. The asics fit fine in the standard width as the kinit is pretty forgiving. The lower is cushioned but not mushy, it felt like it had a good firm depth to it like maybe a bondi 5 but with an aggressive rocker. I took off running and after about 2 miles either the shoe relaxed a bit or my foot/stride adjusted to the rocker. Its way more pronounced than the one in a bondi. So much so that you really don’t feel your calves engage. I felt stable in the shoe except a did trip on something and when I my foot lurched out to catch me it hit the rocker pushing me more forward. I did manage to catch myself before tumbling. At the end of the run my pace was on target for a good day on that route and despite being on not much sleep and drinking too much my legs feel pretty fresh.

Now, this isn’t a shoe you would look to get a PR in a 10k. I think this will be a really good marathon, and even better, ironman shoe for the “just looking to finish” crowd. I think, and its just a guess that this design will delay the fade in a long race and that may be what gives you the PR over the long game. As far as price, I know they’re going to make a cheaper version. At $250 its steep. I’ll say that if I do a 14 mile run in this shoe on good legs and I feel fresh that I would pay the price and use it for marathons or an ironman. When I started running I would pay $130 for a pair of kayanos. My income has doubled in that time and i'm far too heavy for a vapor fly.

I'll tell you where there are very few if any Asics - ultras

ASICS lost $180 million last year. It's dying and they struggle a lot even in their home country, Japan. I've tried a lot of Hoka shoes including Carbon Rocket, Sketchers GoRun Razor 3, Nike Vaporfly 4% and Pegasus. Nike is the best. Hoka makes some pretty good shoes, but they are ok.

It's moving mass market, looks like aiming for Bondi/Clifton/X and getting good reviews...

https://www.roadtrailrun.com/...ideo-review.html?m=1

IMO, HOKA is eating Asics lunch because HOKA is selling shoes to non-runners. My folks are 78 years old and i'd say 60% of their friends (and both of them) are wearing HOKA as an everyday shoe.

Next time you're at the airport, take a look at the shoes of the over-60 crowd of 'normal' people (no-runners). If they're wearing running shoes, odds are they're HOKAs.

I've run total 16 miles with Rincon and they are excellent.
One problem is bottom sole is wearing out fast. Obviously, you can have everything.
Light means light material which is not durable at all.
I've been using Cliftons, Claytons and Rincon is much much better.

Yes, interesting review.

Now ASICS is clearly chasing on Hoka areas... officially targeting the Carbon X (at the same price ;-)

Still a bit expensive, compared to Hoka Rincon :-)

Before Hoka it was New Balance in the airports in the USA. No brand can plan for that but they will take it. The thing to remember is that customer will only buy a new shoe every 2 years or more. That’s the total sport shoe market in general. As triathletes or runners we don’t act like the general market and we can’t apply our buying habits to a general population and extrapolate. You are not doing that here but it’s done often.

Asics the brand is doing ok. They are not chasing Hoka. If anything Hoka is chasing them. Strip the global business Asics does out of it and just concentrate on the USA. Asics is still larger. They have two shoes that are absolute standards by which everything else is measured. Nobody on this forum talks about the Kayano. It’s one of the most boring shoes to talk about. If anything people talk about the changes from one to the next. I could do some data analysis from my work and figure out within reason how many people on this forum run in the Kayano. It wouldn’t be small.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Hey Dave, sure Hoka is still small compared to the biggies, but from 2 million to about 350 million in such a short time period(relatively) has to have gotten some ears to perk up on the legacy shoe companies, no? I see shoes from just about all of them that look like HOKA's now too.

My father in law is one of those 77 year olds who doesnt run, and has been wearing them for 4 years now. He gets a new pair about every 6 months. I do think in the well off retired crowd, they go through these shoes quicker than every two years, like to keep up with the new styles. I just wish I could afford to get a new pair every 6 months, I run those babies into the ground, still have my first pair I walk around in... (-;

Dan seems to like the new carbon Hoka, what are you hearing about that for old man racing?

Monty,

Yes of course Hoka has some folks looking at them. I did an entire research project for one of the advanced concept teams on that topic. That was 3 years ago.
Hoka is an amazing brand. They caught fire at the exact right time when everyone got wrecked from minimalism (yes I know not everyone). And with some good progression in development and a really good marketing team they continue to gain share. I look at it two different ways. 1. They are moving up because they are doing great things. 2. They are moving up because other brands can’t get out of their own way. Of course it’s a combination of both.

As for the Carbon X. I just sent this message to Hoka. “It’s the quietest-smoothest shoe I’ve run in a long time.” From Hoka to Hoka like Dan from the Bondi to the Carbon X it’s an amazingly different feel and a faster feel for sure. That would be true from the Clifton or the Mach or the Rincon. I think it would be a nice Old Guy race day shoe. I pull it out when I simply need to feel smooth on the roads. Sometimes I still like to feel the road and for those days it’s a different shoe.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

“It’s the quietest-smoothest shoe I’ve run in a long time.”//

Well shit then, there goes another $175.. Thanks Dave..(-;

I have run a bit more than 50k with the Rincon also.

Nearly as stable as Clifton 5, same cushion, but much lighter.
Love it for tempo work.

However, I slightly prefer the Carbon X. Not sure why. Maybe Carbon X is perfect in stability, maybe the light peps from the carbon, maybe a bit softer.

But for the price difference (got them for half the price of the Carbon X), they are really great.

I abandoned Asics for Adidas, but it seems all the manufacturers are weaving left and right to find the promised land, often leaving devoted customers way behind.

Damnit Dave! Keep making YouTube vids love your opinions and thoughts on shoes.

Thanks for that comment. I’ve stopped watching you tube shoe reviews because most if not all concentrate on on individual view of the shoe. As you know I’ve always tried to extrapolate what I think you will feel based on who you are. Doing that and doing the video editing and all the other stuff simply becomes too much. If I could have an expert like Talbot or Taren do all the video work and I simply provide the content than I’m totally down for doing more.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed