??? Everything else you said aside, which isn't very convincing since it offers no actual information, just a big, big claim, but how is this possible? I can do all sorts of crazy things with my left arm out of the water, without affecting my right arm in the water.

I understand force and fluid dynamics far better than the average triathlete, but I'm not seeing the connection here at all.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

I checked out his website - that Aquanex power measuring device is sweet. For only $3400 or so I could get a swimming power meter!

By the way - your post is ridiculous - and a first post at that! Here are some nice quotes:

"Prove yourself to me in the water" - childish and makes no sense.

"the most proficient stroke analyst in the swimming world, whose name is Dr. Rod Havriluk" - a bit grandiose.

"The elbow position out of the water is directly related to every part of its opposing arm" - well, lets see - the 2 arms move at completely different speeds as your recovery arm enters the water as the pull arm is only partially through the pull...that alone makes me think that the brain can handle quite a bit of difference between the 2 arms and they are not so "directly related". Plenty of amazing swimmers have pretty funky recovery...they all have excellent pulls. Plus I don't think Dan said what you say he said. I read the article - it seemed to me he was making a point about the misunderstanding of the term "high elbow". I'll go back and read it again - I thought it was pretty good.

I do think the recovery arm position is part of good stroke mechanics, but I'll take good pulling mechanics and good body position any day.

Dave

That's quite a post for your first one!

"Prove yourself to me in the water"

welcome to the forum. i hope you'll be a frequent contributor. i'm turning fifty in february. we have a three lane, twenty five yard pool here at the house, up at the ranch. maybe you'd like to join me on my birthday set, and i'll establish my bona fides for you. or really, anytime. come on up if you're close to L.A. (i don't know where you live, because you didn't fill out any of the information on your user profile, are you in southern calif). the workouts start at five PM sharp, daily.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What's a "stroke analyst"? I'd rather have a good coach.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I'm proof .... I've been doing the high elbow in the water .....over the barrel thing since the post and have improved greatly

I have asked my local pool, the won't let me put barrels in the first lane.

How did you do it ?

FastBreak has a point, guys. When Dan writes that "In fact, most really good swimmers I know don't give much of a hoot what you do with your arm when it's not in the water," that might be true--a lot of really good swimmers might not care. I think Paulo said the same thing recently--so some coaches might not care either. But the science of swimming on arm recovery and how it effects other aspects of the stroke is a bit more complicated than this. Really good swimmers don't always know much about the science of swimming. We should probably be looking to coaches and swimming scientists on these issues.

The Havriluk suggestion is a good one, too. I'm writing this from Indiana U and just swam at the SRSC pool last night where this guy did research and teaching along with Counsilman. No matter how fast Dan might be in the pool, I'd rather take Havriluk's advice (he's a great swimmer and coach himself)!

"the science of swimming on arm recovery and how it effects other aspects of the stroke is a bit more complicated than this."

i don't mean to be flippant, but just imagine how fast janet evans might've gone of someone had gotten to her with this vital information. her world records might've lasted 20 more years, in addition to the 20 they stood.

i've got no problem talking about what your arms ought to do during the recovery phase. but i'm not going to talk about it until the really important stuff gets talked about. i know, i know, by then it'll be too late for us to help grant hackett fix his wide arm swing :-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think Slowman's main point is people (trigeeks in particular) spend waaaaaaay too much time focusing on what is going on above water (and there are zillion idiot coaches who do the same...sorry for the broad brush) because it is easy to see and correct, versus what is going on below water which really is the main area of focus from hydrodynamics and propulsion.

Granted what happens above water does affect what is going on under water, but realistically for the average triathlete it is easier to focus on doing stuff underwater more proficiently first, expecially for the 1:08 Ironman guy who can bike 5:12 and run 3:30 that is spoken about in the article. This is a guy with a huge engine which major stroke mechanics issues slowing him down substantially. Just fixing some major flaws can take this guy close to an hour, which by no means is fast, but is large enough a delta to have a huge impact on overall race performance.

Dev

I immediately thought of Janet as well. She had the ultimate "windmill" stroke and was a distance swimmer to boot. I have seen all different types of strokes and what goes on above the water does not seem as critical as my old college coach used to tell us.

Dev, You obviously never took a golf lesson (backswing....or is it backstroke? ;-) ....isn't that how you set up your catch related to what is going to happen as/when your hand/arm goes into the water?

But, this is towards my point that there is waay too much to think about and over-analysis will twist you into a pretzel...get whatever simple visual works for you, jft, and learn to feel the water.

Yeah it is about how you setup you catch; however, you get your body in the correct position from your torso/hips rather than from swinging you are and thereby torquing your body into the correct position. Perhaps a bit of the drive/torquing comes from the swing, but the vast majority comes from your hips and trunk.

I thought that Dan's articles had several technical misconceptions, but it wasn't as bad as you make it. Also it's his site, so he can write whatever he wants. I'm pretty sure people see him as a guru in many subjects, but swimming is not one of them, so no harm done.

"it's his site, so he can write whatever he wants."

that's no free pass for me. i rather see slowtwitch like a white trash peer reviewed journal. i'm the white trash who writes the article, you're my white trash reviewers.

as to my areas of expertise, it can be argued that i haven't any. to the degree that i do have any, i think i'm arguably more historically impactful on your swim than on your bike (you may or may not be riding anything i invented, but you're certainly swimming in it).

i find it ironic that i'm accused of (of all things) naivete regarding the intersection of fluid dynamics with swimming, as quintana roo certainly spent more time in testing, in the flume, etc., than any other wetsuit made by any other company. we learned things in the early 90s that other wetsuit companies have failed to learn to this day, judging by their designs. you have to spend all the same sorts of time looking at how your suits perform underwater that you have to spend as a high-level swim coach looking at your athletes underwater, because you don't know how your suit is going to affect the user unless you go back and reconsider everything afresh.

all that established you're right, i'm no expert on swim coaching. but then i'm not claiming that i am, or that this is what's needed here. what i'm writing about is elemental to swimming. i'm not writing about the fine nuances of swim arcanery. it doesn't take a world leading cycling expert to know that 90rpm is a cadence that ought to be strived for among those whose current cadence is 65rpm. the same with the very basic elements of swim technique, or how to fix these problems.

i've got many articles to write on swim technique, and two things will be true of them: they'll advance ideas with which no knowledgable swim coach will disagree; and they'll be designed to be read and incorporated by the adult, non-proficient swimmer. when you read them in this context, you'll find (i think) something unique here. it's evident that there is a chasm between where the state of the sport is, and where it ought to be, regarding the swim. i'd have no reason to write these articles were the average triathlete swimming an ironman leg in 58 minutes. unfortunately, he's swimming it 20 minutes slower. so he needs help.

but i know i'm going to get flack, in the same way i get flack when i write about bike position. people iike to nitpick. what they fail to understand is that 60 percent of the field has huge problems that require broad and deep solutions. those solutions are obviously not presented in a meaningful way to these athletes, or else these problems would not still exist in such high numbers. that's the context for these swim articles. if i can help an athlete take 10 or 12 minutes off his IM swim split, i'll leave it to the experts like yourself to get him from 58 to 56:30.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i'm the white trash who writes the article, you're my white trash reviewers.

Waaa, why is triathlon so racist?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Who you callin' white??

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

"as to my areas of expertise, it can be argued that i haven't any. to the degree that i do have any, i think i'm arguably more historically impactful on your swim than on your bike (you may or may not be riding anything i invented, but you're certainly swimming in it). "

OMG YOU INVENTED WATER?!?!?!?!?!? I bow down before you! ;-D

But seriously, it's a good article, and thoughtfully written. The arm action below the water is so many times more important than the recovery, and in surf your return arm is by necessity not going to follow a "perfect" path. And the barrel analogy is a good intuitive way to think about it, I'll just have to think that they are casks of fine whiskey from Ardbeg or Laphroaig.

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Right!

The issue is, - what kind of crazy things can you do with your arm out of the water?

Not much really. How many folks do you see flipping/waving their arms? Not that many with experience..

It should be relaxed, - that's really what is important.

Dan Veatch slaps his full arm down on the water, - boom, boom, boom. He went to the Olympic trials a couple of times...Lots of examples here.

While one arm is recovering/resting, - the other arm should and body should have a firm grip on the water and the streamlined body should be moving over it with your head down: cutting through the water.

Head position is more important...

Dude....

You are so RIGHT ON with all of this stuff....

Your experience and words of wisdom may be lost on some of these people, - but hang in there, - if they keep at it, - the bells will eventually go off in their heads and they'll end up getting it....

Head position dictates body position

Relax your recovery

ABSOLUTELY DEAD RIGHT ON!!!

Navigating is much more important than recovery technique in a triathlon....

Dan,

Is that invite open to anyone? Where is the compound? I'm in Oceanside and would love the chance to swim some sets with you and see how I stack up.

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

Slowman, good points. What most triathletes and swim coaches don't get is that there are elementary flaws in body position and macro underwater arm position that need to be fixed first rather than worrying about what your elbow is doing in mid air. This will get the 5:10 bike stud from 70 min swim to 58. If he continues to ignore it, he'll be stuck at 70 min. Magically, if he fixes what is going on underwater, what is going on in the air up top tends to follow.

I'm no swim expert but it is easier to correct what the small mass is doing (hand in the air) by correcting what the big mass is doing (hips in the water) than the opposite. Think of it as the dog wagging the tail vs the tail wagging the dog. You can focus on the tail and hope to move the dog, or just move the f*&^ing dog where he should be :-)

YOU CANNOT LEARN HOW TO SWIM FROM AN ARTICLE...Especially one as poorly written as the one brought forth in this thread...Swim Power Metres? WTF? Seek the advice of a qualified coach. Most likely the head coach of your local swim club would be happy to spend a couple of minutes (whether free or for a couple of bucks) with you to correct mistakes. Elbow position is of no consequence!!! The under water mechanics, and most critically the CATCH, is what will drive your stroke. I was a national class swimmer and so far I have found the information here poor at best.