Can anybody verify this (tweet saying pros are being rejected from IM Pro Series races but are applying within the deadlines)? To my knowledge, IM has not communicated field caps & they have not outlined a process for accepting athletes (are they just taking whoever signs up or a descending list by world ranking -- it seems like the 1st one if they're telling people fields are full). This would throw a wrinkle into some of this discourse.

Yes, this is correct. I have heard that they only have 120 race ranger units so they stop accepting athletes when they hit that number. IM also has the pro series race registration closing 5-6 weeks prior to race day where it is usually 3 weeks prior. None of this has been disclosed by IM to the pros, deadlines quietly shifted and races are capped with no communication.

I don't see this being much of and issue for races other than Oceanside and Texas since the rest of the schedule allows athletes to pick and choose a bit more. Seems most pro series contenders will choose Placid/Hamburg + WC to hit their 3 140.6s and 70.3 WC in December.

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Todd Suttor

Working Triathlete Elite Development Team
Professional Triathlete
Instagram

Interesting. They should just communicate it then. The tweet makes it sound worse than it is. So 120 on the IM Texas start list with a small # being left out. I still don't love it -- especially the lack of communication. Would think it would make more sense to put this info out there & use some sort of descending order list & try to fill a wait list a couple weeks before the race.

https://stats.protriathletes.org/...ifornia/2023/results
At last year's pro brief they/we managed to get them to give the WPros an extra minute's gap (2 > 3).
Matthews Findlay Sodaro and Jewett (with a much improved swim after going 'proper pro' from Dec 2022) left T1 together, with some of the BP men. Ben S stuck with that group on the ride for 80km, Findlay leading and Matthews on 'not a comeback' restrained ride, Ben S in wheel 3 (NB not "back of pack" - that would've been the place to be), and Sodaro and Jewett hanging on, all entirely legally ie more than 10m between.
Must be remembered that (a) Jewett was weak on the bike in 22 (especially when any corners involved) and (b) she had never ridden in a 'train' so her understanding of overtaking and stuff low.
Ben said on here he too, as a debut pro, had never been in that situation (or how it affected the WPro race dynamic) and subsequently realised that he should have either gone back or forward.
This happy bunch of sisters (and cuckoo brother) caught Lawrence by Marine Camp: and so they were 6.
Mark Matthews has said she (Kat) didn't think the male presence had had any significant affect (he was behind her for 10s of km). Findlay has said she didn't ride well.
The 'mixed' pack stayed that way till Matthews decided she was confident she could make it and pushed the last 30 minutes (with Findlay and Lawrence in tow), distancing Ben S, Sodaro and Jewett (latter also then serving a 30 sec 'blocking' penalty before T2). Jewett easily ran past first Matthews then Sodaro ftw and an amazing 73 dead. Ben S ran 1:21 btw for a 4:19 (weak swim, weak bike, weak run).

"we can both agree that the start times need to change to give more of a buffer." This
"easy fix to me, do not allow pro men to legally draft with pro women" and this.

On Jewett's bicycling strength in 2023 and now, and helping @dcpinsonn out.
At Oceanside she lost about 35 seconds riding in that last 20km to the front group, once the elastic broke. Comparatively, a great ride. Seemed to herald a new force, but we now realise it was an outlier, as said.
At Ibiza 3+ minutes down on Findlay (up and down dual carriageway x 7, 80km)
At Milwaukee 8 minutes down on Findlay and 5 on Matthews (80km).
At Lahti 11 minutes down on Findlay and Matthews (90km).
And at Miami this month she exited T1 with Findlay and Matthews (after a good swim) but went backwards, fast. Sad she DNF'd and assume it wasn't just the bike handling.

I think the lack of other races for lower level pros has probably caused this - many new pros are panicking about racing anywhere and getting on startlines early - then people who have been used to the old system of...just sign up before the 3 week deadline are being caught off guard. The other issue will be - how many no shows will there be in oceanside? Because lots of pros have done that for years - two start lists or just in case I get the want to go race I've got the option. These things were rarely an issue before.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Replying in general to the idea of the race being "sold out". Ironman should not run its business waiting for pros to decide if they want to fit their race into the schedule as late as possible.

They announced the pro race long enough ago for athletes to be able to plan what races to go to. They put more money into it to make it a priority for athletes to be rewarded.

If athletes are indecisively trying to guess which race lines up with their fitness or competition best, they might miss out if they don't make a commitment. What is certain is that the athletes who made a commitment to Ironman first, it sounds like they are getting in.

That's very democratic of them and IM should be applauded if they tell someone higher ranked they waited too long and lost their chance.

Here's the real question though. How many men and how many women? Are the females given equal slots? Is Kat Matthews sitting out because some random male pro is in? Is Sam Long missing out because an equal amount of slots were assigned to women? Either way... scarcity never leaves people feeling satisfied.

Ironman is 100% in the wrong here in regards to race registration deadlines. Like they always do, they posted the schedule, including registration deadlines, with some initial races and then have been added the later season ones. They have changed the registration "deadlines" at least twice now with absolutely no heads up to the athletes. Sometimes I'll check a race I'm thinking about, put an event in my calendar to "register for 70.3 XX", and then see how the next month or so goes. This is how it's always been done. Significantly changing the deadlines without notice is simply not transparent and a problem.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I agree this is the big issue. They note that everything on the schedule is "Subject to Change" which IM will hide behind, but the lack of information disclosed and closing races without notice is an issue. I almost missed St. George registration, thought I had 3 more weeks to register and realized it closed early with a couple days to spare.

Ben, how do you feel about the athletes who seem to register for every race and then pull out last minute after the start list is released? You have been racing pro longer and have seen this much more, so do you think IM should do more to prevent this from happening now that pro races are "selling out"?

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Todd Suttor

Working Triathlete Elite Development Team
Professional Triathlete
Instagram

On principal, I don't have any problem with the register for everything and only race what you want move, as it's never had any consequences until now. Interestingly, a few years ago right when we got back into racing after covid, ironman made the registration deadlines very close to the races. Like within 2 weeks. However, they also would send follow-up emails asking to confirm whether or not you were actually racing. That way they're not wasting resources and would have a better idea of who is actually going to be there. I feel like that system made sense as well.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Lagerstrom is out so that’s one more race ranger unit up for grabs.

I think if your going to have an "A" series like this for IM, you have to basically have better rules/regulations. You can't change them on the fly and not communicate that with athletes. WT has procedures for withdrawing and has penalties for "late withdraws" (unless illness/course fam crash, etc) that IM could sorta easily follow. The need for better procedures and/or not adjusting on the fly will only increase if this series continues to grow in importance.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So what if they went PTO style. Invited higher ranked pros first, then opened it up aka “wildcard”

80 men is just way too many imo. It’s going to be a shit show between fast women and slow men even in the water. The course is so narrow in parts with tight turns it just makes no sense.

It's also how ITU does their start list, higher ranked athletes (assuming they nominate to race early enough when the start list is produced and not after that point) get priority over lesser ranked athletes even if both "register" for the race at the same time.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I really like how it's the polar opposite of the PTO. You're a pro and want to race? Line up. The racing will be more dynamic and less sterile, and honestly the women's field (and men's Pro field) have always had to contend with other athletes and AG'ers on the course. It's part of the draw to Ironman when you can race at the same time as the Pro's.

I don't care which way IM does the registration, capped at a number or just in before the deadline, but at least communicate it to people before making a change. Didn't realize that quick registration was one of the metrics for pro series points.

What's going to happen if one of the very top athletes doesn't register quick enough? Are they actually going to tell Lionel or Skipper they can't race because they don't have enough equipment?

IM has always been able to hid behind their monopoly and brand name in the long course tri market in the US.

I'd have no issue with that IF there were more races that had pro fields. If 70.3 Texas had a field with a smaller purse on the same weekend, by all means keep the pro series races to a certain ranking or something. But there pretty much isnt a non pro series pro race in North America during the first half of the year.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

80 men is just way too many imo. It’s going to be a shit show between fast women and slow men even in the water. The course is so narrow in parts with tight turns it just makes no sense.//

Just a point of interest and history, Kona used to have upwards of 120/150 men pros racing. So 80 is not really that big of deal, and as long as they drop back like last year if any women catch them on the bike, then I dont see a huge problem. I watched last year and it was basically one guy that got in with the lead group, and he went to the back and let them have their race for most of it. Kind of like what PTO does, get lapped and you sit in your spot at the back..


And the swim will be fine and not a shit show as you describe. The lead women will be spread out as any BOP swimming men will be, so an easy pass. It wont be many men who get passed, and the real challenge will be for them to hammer out of T1 and get clear of those ladies...

Just a note that this included a 5 min penalty...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Good point: forgot that: so only 6 minutes. But guess it points back to Jewett's inexperience in riding with (behind) others. Maybe race ranger will help her."it was basically one guy that got in with the lead group, and he went to the back" - this absolutely was not what happened. Ben S (new USAT pro and averaged 4:09 for his six 70.3s in 2023) got stuck (and stayed) between Matthews and Sodaro for 40km, and then for 30km between the rear one of three (Findlay/Lawrence/Matthews) and Jewett/Sodaro.
I agree the swim will be fine because the women will just swim past, led by Knibb. I can see her riding as fast as many of the BoP men as well: they can draft her (legally).

Keeping an eye open (and wishing the best for) the little Mexican, Thomas Rodriguez Hernandez

Saw him running 2h38m in IMMX - impressive in those conditions.

Spoken like a man. There’s a reason the women’s only Kona race was so popular with the women pros. No other sport has this.

Male pros don’t until they get to the run. Or on looped courses. And guess what. This FOP male pros hate it. It’s the same reason AG starts are gone except WC races. It’s an awful experience

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I was specifically talking about the Oceanside course. On a course like Kona it’s not as bad. Imagine 80 pro men on the IMAZ course and 3 loops

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Well on a 3 loop course kind of irrelevant how many pros, as you now have to pass the 1000's of age groupers too. But as you say, different courses have different dynamics. If they put into place some rule for the passed men pros at some point on the bike, it should be fine. Like you get your one shot to go ahead if passed in the swim, but if a female biker passes you, back of the group you go, and stay there until T2...

This.

They slashed a lot of pro 70.3/140.6 races this year. Races that come to mind immediately are Oregon, Gulf Coast, Maryland, Michigan, Florida. Would be curious to know how much money IM is putting up this year compared to last year. Add in a few more $15k-$30k races ($50k/75k 140.6s) that won't attract the bigger names & then communicate that IM Pro Series races have a cap. I would do it like World Triathlon, with the addition of the extra races for developing pros. Have it so anybody can sign up for the Pro Series races that has their pro license. When registration closes, publish a descending order list like World Triathlon does. It'll roll pretty far down at most races. Then have a system to take people off of a wait list. Have people confirm when registration closes or 2-3 weeks before the race. Then go down the list & give the next highest ranked a chance to accept.

Also, stop trashing on the kid (i.e. name calling -- seriously?) that rode in the pack at Oceanside last year. It was their 1st pro race. They beat 10 MPros & another 7 who DNFd. Their time would've had them 5th overall amateur at probably the most competitive AG 70.3 on the North American calendar. Plus their USAT score would've been around 111 -- way over the pro cutoff. Top-end women are really good, and are getting better. Jewett would've been 27th in the men's race. 29th went on to get to World Champs slot a month later. You see it in endurance sports like marathoning/ultra marathoning, where the top women might've been in the money or even beaten people in the invited men's field. It happens. Women marathoners have sub-2:15 PBs now. There are a handful of men with slower PBs than the top woman in the elite field at Boston & that woman "only" has a 2:17. Increase the time in between races. Have a drop back rule. But one more wheel in the pack didn't drastically change that race imo when someone runs 72:59. Oceanside usually favors strong runners.

The fact that Ironman creates a fantastic series with a great schedule, great prizes, and a broadcast to showcase pros and their sponsors and some want to complain about not being able to signup right until the deadline suggests the problem is not with the organization but with the mindset of the pros who want to pick and choose and have it all their way. This is pretty clear, because on the other hand we see the PTO create a great series, with amazing compensation, and many of the pros they enlist still get picky choosey and don't show up.

How's this for you pros who think the tour or series is important: SIGN UP and SHOW UP.

This reproving obviously doesn't apply to everyone as you've got Alistair towing the line and blowing up even though he's not fully fit. He showed up regardless. You've got Sam Long getting scorned by some for being sub par and we have him showing up and racing his heart out and multiple races.

You have two pro series that created two avenues for success, but because of indecision, strategy, or less than ideal training readiness some athletes aren't showing up.

If you want to have the perfect build and target minimal races to have amazing success at one or two races, that's a great strategy. I fully endorse it. Might even be the winning one for Kona/Nice. But don't complain that you didn't get to have it all while you were deciding what to do and otherwise were making a commitment.

Ironman's deadline to sign-up does not mean you are guaranteed a spot until then. It should mean if you don't tell them by then you certainly aren't getting a spot. There's no reason to expect that if the entire WTCS just showed up 1 day before the deadline Ironman has to accept them all because they didn't inform everyone that scarcity exists in the real world. And it's ironic that this scarcity is the direct result of the very thing THE PROS HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR -- Race Ranger. How about this, every pro that wants to race, pony up $2000 a year and give it to Race Ranger as a membership to ensure you have a device at every event. Ironman should just sub contract out that aspect of the race to RR and say if you want to race pro you need to pay an annual registration fee to Race Ranger.

Again, you've got two organizations that have offered athletes a chance to race as a pro, and the pros aren't getting it and playing out the season as if nothing has changed and strategizing how to maximize their benefit. I suppose a basketball or football player should take the same approach and start skipping the big games. No. The T100 pros have been given a pro calendar. They should show up and race just about everyone and support the organization that is betting on them. Not try to maximize their gain for 2-3 races. IM has given athletes on multiple continents a chance to do their own pro series in a way that fits for them. Plan out your calendar and sign up to race them.

Yes, you might get to a race and need to pull out if there's an issue. But show up and give it your best shot.

If the T100 falls apart, and the Ironman decides to back away from this pro series thing it won't be for lack of trying on their end. The pros ought to do their best to make sure the tour/series is as successful and hyped as possible. Some are for sure. Others are still just seeing things that aren't perfectly aligned for them and their circumstances and pointing out how it could be done better to benefit them. Ya, nice. I'm sure the PTO and Ironman could point out 100 things that the pros could do better to benefit their own series. Work with what you got. Not what you wish you had.