Stop defending dopers.

Yes, there are studies that show this but use common sense. If you dope & get more fit than you would have been without doping, then you're, you know, more fit. That sticks with you.

What's the point of doing the prove it thing here? It ignores a good chunk of my original post. I'm spending my time condoning dopers -- not looking for an out for them.

Again, can you please provide a link to this "research" that it is not the one study done on mice? Most studies I have come across indicate serious long term health issues from steroid abuse. Low testosterone, heart failure, kidney issues, etc. Also, there are plenty of documentaries about former steroid abusers struggling with these issues and they can't even function. I am happy to stand corrected and learn something but y'all got nothing.

FWIW, Michael Weiss got busted for blood busting in 2005.

Sam was part of a group of athletes that wound up doing some bonus miles on the bike, from what I've understood from people that were there.

To the thread generally -- knock the sex offender stuff off. Save it for when we have a Sutton thread. The apt analogy here is committing some type of fraud.

Love, Management

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

To me it reminds me of an 100m dash. You can't tell me a doped athlete regardless of when they got popped isn't starting with a head start. 10 years ago it may have been an 8m head start, but even now if it's as little as 2m that's still a unfair head start.


He was also banned what in the 2 year ban timeline, as I think the 4 year bans came in around what 10 years ago or so? So he likely never took any real "time off" from training.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

His Strava file indicates an 180 km and seems the same distance as Weiss?

Did Sam get a kona slot?

Everyone has bad days especially after three races and the last one ill and all that travel. Me likely did very good giving his health right now.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

For a lot of people it depends if he's likeable or not. Not saying if that's a good or bad way to judge it but it is what it is.

i suspect a bit of low dose juice is probably better for your health when doing 20 + hours training than not - avoids anemia

This has been discussed as naueseum in this forum and if you can’t be bothered to search to find what is at this point considered generally accepted that’s on you. It is accepted that doping provides long term benefit to the user. Just accept that and move on.

playing devils advocate here, this is an over generalisation. You cant just take dope and then get good. You have to be doing high level or doper level training, maybe training in excess of doper level.

I heard an interview with one of the jumbo trainers on the Real Coaching podcast. The gist of the relevant part was that in the past cycling was over reliant on 'medical aspects' - getting HCT and HGB at the limits - without optimising training, weight, recovery and nutritional aspects.

I infer now that these non-medical aspects have improved considerably and the riders are a bit more professional in this regard. Training in a much more polarised way consistently and recovering better. & the extent to which the medical aspects layer on top of that can be left to people's own assessments.

He doesn't want to accept it. He's going out of his way to deny it and excuse doping. Not worth responding to him anymore.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

are you now the boss of this forum champ? someone just wants to understand something better and you act like the king ?

Like I said, it's not unequivocal but it's also not a hard conclusion to draw. There's two types of muscle growth, hypertrophic (growth of existing muscle cells) and hyperplasic (creation of new muscle cells). It's incredibly difficult to create new muscle cells in adults (hyperplasia), yet that is a common outcome in steroid users.

Likewise, when muscles atrophy it's largely due to the shrinking of cells, not a reduction in the number of cells, especially when residence training is continued. Therefore it stands to reason that artificially increasing the number of muscle cells is a process that is effectively irreversible and allows a unique pathway to further growth available only to those who used the steroids.

One of a few studies that shows hyperplasia as a marked outcome of AAS use below. There's not going to be long term steroid use studies on humans for ethical reasons, so throwing out conclusions because of lack of unethical studies is a bit of a force.

None of this is groundbreaking research.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10589853/

Sure “champ.”

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Missed his Kona slot which is why I guess he did the race to begin with. He mentioned before the 70.3 worlds that he was going to wrap his season early but probably decided to try for an early Kona slot at this race. Bummer that he missed it.

Can't Ironman, Challenge and any other company running a sporting event have a rule that anyone with a WADA doping violation (or above a specific category of violation) is not eligible for any prize money or awards? They'd still be following the WADA code, and not handing out longer bans, but also removing one of the incentives for the cheaters to cheat again.

in my ideal world those who doped would not need to be banned - the shame of cheating would make staying in the sport unbearable. No sponsors, no training partners, no invitations to do anything related to the sport. It used to be like that in my initial sport (track and field). Now it is just an occupational setback.

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And the question remains. where were you.

I'm sure they could, I mean private organizations as long as they aren't pretty much discriminatory can come up with any rules they want. I still think not all doping issues are the same, and so then do you want to get in the weeds of grading doping violations? Is it a sweeping generalization rule that ANY doping violation removes you forever? So that's just a whole lot of can of worms, so I generally think these organizations will just say "whatever WADA says goes".

And no I'm not saying they don't care about doping by behaving in that manner. I actually think it's probaly the easiest from a biz standpoint to kinda stay out of the weeds of that issue.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'd argue not really, but I get your point about the infraction being from his MTB days.

I agree with you here. It's tough for a private organization to set separate rules when something like WADA exists.

Even if they did agree that there are lifetime ban worthy offenses, finding the line is tough. To me, there are clear lifetime worthy offenses like Colin Chartiers's, but I also can see that offenders like Starky didn't cross the same line.

If there was a hypothetical line, I'd be willing to set it farther from clean than I'd like just to be sure. Maybe at something like EPO blood doping and other things that have no other purpose in sport besides cheating.

All just hopes and dreams though. If WADA doesn't do it, it's not going to happen.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

I've probably written something similar before on ST about Weiss but I can say from all my interactions over the years with Weiss that he is probably one of the nicest pro triathletes you will ever meet. In an era where narcissism and fake nice play well, I can honestly say that Weiss is a just a genuinely nice guy. Now being a nice guy doesn't excuse the doping obviously, but one thing is clear to me about Michi. He just loves sport. He breathes it. What is he to do at this point? Go back to the age-group ranks? I'm sure the age-groupers, many whom are doping right now, would love that *pink*.

I think Michi knows he isn't a threat at Kona so at this point he is just doing this to prove to himself what is possible and I'm more than ok with that. He has served his time. If he was due a lifetime ban, we should fix the system, and also fix moto/medias in races too while we are at it, otherwise let the man race. He may have not told the whole story, frankly can't remember it that well, but he came on here and took his beatings. Maybe for legal reasons he couldn't say certain things, but he made an effort which runs contrary to many others.

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Different sports may have different factors to all of this as well - I think finding a line is very difficult / impossible

Triathlon is traditionally viewed as a more individual sport, but is this same life time ban logic applicable to more team dominant sports, like football (soccer) or cycling? Thinking back to an era in cycling where it is acknowledged that doping was wide spread, there would be many pressures from all angles on riders to dope. But a lifetime exclusion only really punishes the individual and won't deter the system / machine that sits around all of this.

The top level athletes (including triathletes) have team and federation doctors that work with them and there should be some responsibility on the doctor to only prescribe substances that will not result in a violation (whether that is because they are not on the prohibited list yet, they are undetectable in certain dose) and to keep up with latest information. I have heard the view held by some is that anti doping means not that you don't dope at all, but that you don't get caught doping - it is only doping when you get caught

Recent positive doping from a diuretic from a Jumbo Rider - Michel Hessmann of Jumbo-Visma Suspended (bicycling.com). If he is on the old school cycling cocktail (blood bags, low dose anabolics and cortisone, EPO) and to 'those who know' that really means the diuretic is concealing the old school cycling drugs, should he also get a lifetime ban?

No one really talks about the role of sponsors in all of this - but its a 2 way street as the sponsors get more money from the high profile athletes (who are 'clean' but otherwise doing other world performances)

I'll be honest, hearing this from you has more of an impact on my opinion than any of the comments that are trying to argue that doping benefits don't last. I trust your instincts when it comes to this sport. Still, I think I'm being pretty objective.

I'm not trying to make any personal claims about Weiss, unless saying that the rules are bad is personal. I believe you that he's a nice guy. But that doesn't alter my opinion that we should want to fix the system around drug testing and punishment. It's not about the person, it's about the system.

And no, he's not a threat in Kona, but Sam Long still wanted to qualify, and now he didn't. That's a material career impact.

I'm sure there are other bad things too, like motos, but listing them doesn't change how I think about this individual topic.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

Good points and it brings up another thing I wish the sporting world could do, ban doctors & coaches (and other supporting personnel) that knowingly supply athletes with illegal supplements.

I am aware that's even greyer and more difficult to set the line sometimes, but I have a feeling there are other Salazar's out there that are better at staying out of the spotlight.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

What the hell are you writing here???

He’s nice so ….
He’s not going to win so…
Other could be doing to so…
Motos so…
Not sure the story was but hear is my opinion.

Dopers should be banned for life. My Opinion.

Dopers if not banned for life under the rules can return to sport after their suspension. Fact

He falls into the second category.

Everyone in a competition has to play but the exact same rules or else it isn’t sport. Just sometimes a rule help others more the some and sometimes the rules maybe flawed but are still followed. Therefore not broken. This is were an organization like pto that is so anti doping should be pushing for stronger regulations and penalties.

Carry on everyone.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Yeah, I sort of understand why someone who knows Weiss personally might try to be sympathetic to him in this thread, and that's fine, but there's a whole lot of whataboutism and hypotheticals in Thomas's post. And that's silly.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden