I'm sorry he had such a horrible reaction, that he is in pain, and I hope he is well soon. Thanks for sharing and I hope your family gets all the help and care you need both in the hospital, from real life people, and from the LR'ers. Keep us updated, please.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Thanks again for all the well wishes. A very special thank you to WannaB

He is now out of the ICU, but remains in the hospital under observation. Things are getting better which is very good news. Three to six months is the projected recovery time for him. that's the whole summer without being able to bike or run and no work either.

As his Doctor told him, he joined a very elite subset of people. .001% have had some type of reaction like this. I told him to never play the lottery - he used his one chance on this.

He did decide to set up a Go Fund Me to try and have people send him a funny joke in the comments or maybe recoup some of the losses of not having a summer job. Funny thing is that he can't send anything out via his social media - All his messages are deleted due to 'fact checks' and that his post must be spam or a con. I guess that what happens when you are in such a small group.

A very interesting thing he wrote is he feels people should still get vaccinated. He experienced one of the worst outcomes but maintains a position and still believes that others should still get vaccinated - but to pay attention to warning signs. I find that interesting when compared to another popular thread happening at the same time here in the LR.

I'm not going to post his gofundme link here. That was never the intent of this thread and it reminds me too much of my old days in auto sales. If you would like to read his version of this ordeal in his write up, send me a PM and I'll send you the link to his version.

That's good news

I'm very happy for your good news.

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Tri or tri not; this is no du. (--- with apologies to Yoda.) Slow triathlete who survived Huntsville, Lelystadt, Colmar, Fontanil, and
Szekesfehervar/Lake Velence. Arbor hydration specialist in a kid's park in Monterrey 4 times in the 1990s (and in the pits in 1994).

So good to hear this.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I’m so glad he’s doing better. Thank you for the update. Three to six months of no work and no play is such a bummer. But it sounds like your son has a really good attitude. So impressive!

I sent you a message b/c I’d like to hear his story and help your boy. Best wishes.

I'm glad to see that he's doing better.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Late seeing this thread and hoping for the best for your son.

I was under the impression that the studies out of Israel were leaning towards a finding that the inflammation and myocarditis rates that they were seeing are not out of the norm of expectation.

In your son's case, is there a way to investigate or follow up if there is/isn't a connection to the vax?... Via monitoring/tracking during his next few months and/or working with specialists?

Again, hoping recovery continues and goes well.

I read your son’s gofundme write-up. He has the start of an excellent essay for college applications!

He’s right at the center of a lot of public health issues, including understanding the very low risk of bad medical outcomes, the social utility of vaccinations, public health messaging about risks and rewards, and a personal, life-altering medical event. He’s in the middle of a unique and profound Covid experience.

It’s a really interesting challenge to talk about this rare bad outcome that’s related (we’re probably still assuming) to the Covid vaccine. Right now, with Covid so politicized, that conversation seems hugely daunting. It’s the kind of conversation where you think, “boy, some whackadoodle could really run with this and do some damage.” But it’s real & true. We need to be able to talk about it.

Because it’s a big challenge and it’s a rare and unique experience, it’s rich for exploration. I like that your son wrote about it. I think that shows a confidence and courage to tackle tough issues. You should be proud of your boy!

I don’t remember when kids start working on college essays, but hopefully the timing of this is good.

I hope your son keeps his spirits up. I’ll post a message on his gofundme.

I'm happy to hear he's out of the ICU. Major bummer about the 3-6 months recovery time. Keep letting us know how things are, okay?
How are you holding up? Your wife? Any siblings? Take care of YOU, too. It's scary and hard on everyone when there's a major health event in the family. Lots of hugs.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Well, no dramatic heart-wrenching twist to the story. He was released from the hospital this afternoon! Visiting with the girlfriend and then he'll be back home later tonight. All in all, not a bad outcome and we are on to the next phase of recovery - for all of us!

Thought I'd try and follow up on a few comments in the thread.

As for the statement that these types of cases as identified in Israel .".were not out of the norm..' Again, we are talking an extreme small population, .001% IF tied to the vaccine. I'd call that way outside the norm - but possible.

I am not qualified to make the statement that this inflammation was caused by this second vaccine shot. However, the medical staff at an extremely well regarded hospital has made that statement. I'll trust that.

As for follow-up studies, again - not my area. I would suspect that there will be a high level of interest in investigating this issue further. If we are ever contacted by someone that wants to include him in a study, I'm sure he would want to participate and we would give our consent.

The comment that there are some whackadoodles that could run with this has been a very big concern. Prior to starting the thread I was worried that if misrepresented, this could potentially lead someone to not get vaccinated. However, that is juxtaposed with the feeling that I would like to share this experience with the LR community. If anyone knows someone of experiencing a sharp pain in the heart - shortly after the second shot - take this very seriously. There are some rather simple tests to be taken to determine what is happening to rule this out. I trust the medical community will continue to quickly learn and adapt and understand that although very rare - it is a possible outcome.

As for getting him to keep writing and/or an internship.
He's been sending videos to his friends and it's been fun to see his reactions, point of view, and updates - I asked him if he was going to find a more permanent place for them to exist and write more about his recovery. He's not yet sure. The recovery time this summer is not just about the physical exertion, it's about mental stress. So, his plan to take SATs this June has been dropped. He'll wait until October. But, an internship or work from home job is a great suggestion and something we will have him consider.

As for we parents and his sister.
What else is new over this past year!? This just seems to be one more crazy possibility that we could never have foreseen that was added to the list of crap to now deal with. His sister is taking her finals at the end of her freshman year in University. I chose to keep her informed and figured she is very well equipped these days to process news. She processed well, they texted a ton, all was good. My wife and I are in a good place. We're fortunate it was identified quickly and he was in immediate and tremendously capable hands to care for him. In fact, because he was the first and only case to date, he was poked and prodded by all the best doctors. He was a little prince - which always seems to be the case no matter the place.

That's about it. happy to respond to any questions or PMs if I can ever provide some information.

So good to hear that your son is out of the hospital and coming back home to you.
As a medical specialist it can always be tricky figuring out exactly what caused an event to happen, especially in this era of COVID and vaccinations and hyper-vigilance about potential side effects etc. In reality, none of that will change what happens from here for your son and it is best to focus on getting him back into a day to day life as he is able.
In terms of follow-up studies etc, I am presuming he is likely to have repeat echocardiograms to assess his heart function in the coming months (do you know if these showed any significant impairment?). The 3-6 months recovery time is honestly often a bit of a guesstimate, every patient is unique, the younger you are and the better your baseline level of function the sooner you are often back to normal. Take those estimates as a potential worst case scenario but also don't expect every day to be all roses and happiness.
I would love to read his gofundme if you would not mind sending me the link.
Best wishes from down under.

beyond all my other many questions, my one technical question is: is there an identifiable difference between a "natural" covid antibody and a vaccine-generated antibody? of course it's fair to generate a set of best practices after you get the vaccine. i was pretty wiped after shot #2, but i did run (short and slow) and swim (short and slow) the day after the shot. but i also wonder about long haulers, and i wonder if there are those who were symptom-light, and maybe didn't know they had the virus, who nevertheless suffered damage unbeknownst to them. i heard somewhere recently a speculation that perhaps a third of all in the US got the virus. i don't know if that's true, or if i misheard. i would like to be able to parse between a "we just don't know" heart attack, an actual, bona-fide vaccine-related heart attack, and a covid long-hauler heart attack. but after everyone gets vaccinated, if it's the same antibody regardless of whether it's covid-generated or vaccine-generated, it'll be hard to know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 Very good news!

I like when a story ends well !!!

I’m happy for you, your son, and your family. Good things.

I'm glad to hear he's home and that you and your wife and daughter are doing ok too.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Your questions ask for some very specialized information. I don’t know. I think testing to identify antibodies is done by taking a blood sample and seeing if the antibodies react to known antigens (invaders).

Because the Covid vaccines are made with actual disabled Covid cells, I would think your body’s antibodies created in response to the vaccine & infection would look and act the same. I don’t think they would be identified differently in the regular blood tests. Maybe the doctor identifies the natural/vaccine antibodies by asking you whether or not you’ve been exposed to known Covid cases or had the vaccine recently. Maybe your body is slower to make the millions of antibodies needed in a natural case of Covid than with the vaccine response. Maybe they can look at the number of antibodies and the onset of symptoms? I have no idea.

This is the science of infectious disease, which I think is super interesting. When we lived in Rochester, MN, my daughter had reoccurring intermittent high fevers. Like 103* for two or three days and then no fever for 5 days. It went on for about 2 months before I realized there was a pattern and we figured it out with the help of an infectious disease doctor. My daughter had pneumonia antibodies, antibodies for some sort of disease from cats, and antibodies for hand, foot and mouth disease. Her immune system was almost strong enough to handle them simultaneously, but not quite.

With heart attacks, I think it would be very hard to identify in a regular patient if it’s one thing or another. I’m sure lots of people with heart disease are getting the vaccine. Lots of people with heart disease are getting Covid, both serious infections and mild infections. Lots of people with unknown mild Covid infections and heart disease are getting the vaccine.

I think relying on studies of people whose health is known prior to the vaccines is the best way to assess vaccine risks. Working backward from a heart attack seems very tricky.

I’m not sure that knowing the cause of heart attacks in undetected mild Covid cases and the super rare vaccine cases versus other causes of heart attacks will materially affect the treatment.

The mRNA vaccines specifically do NOT use "disabled COVID cells".

None of the vaccines use "disabled COVID cells". That's not even a thing. A virus is not a cell.

I know this - but I was using CallMeMaybe's term... But regardless, none of the vaccines use anything related to the real COVID virus.

My bad.

Okaaaay. I’m sorry I’m such a fool. I know we had threads on how the vaccine was made.

Edited: never mind.

It's been a busy couple of days, but all is still as it should be here. A 17 yr old that has been relieved of all possible work chores around the house, limited school work, and just chilling with his girlfriend - does not seem like such a bad outcome right now. to heck with Ice Cream after having tonsils removed!

Once again, for the recent well wishes, thank you.

Amnesia, The cardiologist did not believe there was significant impairment nor would there be any long term issues. There was the myocarditis, a pericarditis (that was the source of most of his pain and discomfort), initially his blood troponin levels were through the roof, and there was concern over his lowered ejection fraction for a while. It was the last two that kept him in the hospital for a few days. Clearly, they resolved to a level of comfort and he was released.

He is scheduled to see his primary this week. He is scheduled for his first return visit to the cardiologist three weeks from now. So, his personal follow-up is all set. We just do not know, and have not yet heard from anyone, about a possible larger cohort study.

Slowman, for most of your questions I could only give a wild and biased opinion - not sure that would be much of a help. But, I do know the 'cause' of this 'heart attack' is still not definitive. As stated, pretty sure the medical staff ruled out a virus, other illness, or the 'heart attack' of reduced blood flow to the heart muscle. So, the most likely cause, for now, is to link this event to the second shot. Big pharma, not unlike Big tobacco, will find arguments to question causality between the second shot and the cardiac event. 'Common sense' is easy to tie those two events together, once other possible factors had been removed. Let that dance begin.

As medical professionals posters in this thread, and through PM, have recommended, we are not so concerned with what caused the cardiac event - that they chose to list as a heart attack. That's for other professions and experts to study and quibble. We will remain an N+1 family and just be concerned with his health and his recovery as prescribed and recommended by his medical care. At this time, my son is just choosing to hang low. He does not want to write about, post about it, be on tv about it, make a fuss about it. He just wants to try and get healthy, while still finding a way to shirk his way out of doing chores for as long as he can. He's resourceful - he'll find a way.

bless. Good boy.

That is all great news. Again, you are a wonderful family. Will be hopeful his recovery continues to go perfect.

And will be optimistic that in the end, this experience only serves to give him perpsectives and appreciations that shape the man he continues to become.

sweathog wrote:

x2

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD