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Re: Dr Suess Too? [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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 He was a political cartoonist and an advertising executive, in the 30's and 40's before he went into children's books and became "Dr. Seuss". I loved his books and they were instrumental for me when I started to learn to read and to get me excited to read. He had the very remedial books like Hop on Pop and more advanced books but even those only ( at least for me ) became remedial by 4th-5th grade. Nothing better to read or be read to as a kid than iambic pentameter.

I remember one of the books they are no longer going to publish and may be pulled from some libraries/schools. "And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street." this is the text.

And To Think I saw it on Mulberry Street. By: Dr.Seuss When I leave home to walk to school, Dad always says to me, “Marco, keep your eyelids up And see what you can see.” But when I tell him where I've been And what I think I've seen, He looks at me and sternly says, “Your eyesight's much too keen.” “Stop telling such outlandish tales. Stop turning minnows into whales.” Now, what can I say when I get home today? All the long way to school And all the way back, I've looked and I've looked And I've kept careful track. But all that I've noticed, Except my own feet Was a horse and a wagon on Mulberry Street. That's nothing to tell of, That won't do, of course.... Just a broken-down wagon That's drawn by a horse. That can't be my story. That's only a start. I'll say that a ZEBRA was pulling that cart! And that is a story that no one can beat, When I say that I saw it on Mulberry Street. Yes, the zebra is fine, But I think it's a shame, Such a marvelous beast With a cart that's so tame. The story would really be better to hear If the driver I saw there were a charioteer. A gold and blue chariot's something to meet, Rumbling like thunder down Mulberry Street. No, it won't do at all... a zebra's too small. A reindeer is better; he's fast and he's fleet, And he'd look mighty smart On old Mulberry Street. Hold on a minute! There's something wrong! A reindeer hates the way it feels To pull a thing that runs on wheels. He'd be much happier, instead, If he could pull a fancy sled. Hmmm.. A reindeer and a sleigh.. Say-anyone could think of that, Jack or Fred of Joe or Nat-- Say, even Jane could think of that. But it isn't too late to make one little change. A sleigh and an ELEPHANT! There's something strange! Say! That makes a story that no one can beat, When I say that I saw it on Mulberry Street. But now I don't know... It still doesn't seem right. An elephant pulling a think that's so light Would whip it around in the air like a kite. But he'd look simply grand With a great big brass band! A band that's so good should have someone to hear it, But it's going so fast that it's hard to keep near it. I'll put on a trailer! I know they won't mind If a man sits and listens while hitched on behind. But now is it fair? Is it fair what I've done? I'll bet those wagons weigh more than a ton. That's really too heavy a load for one beast; I'll give him some helpers. He needs two, at least. But now what worries me is this.. Mulberry Street runs into Bliss. Unless there's something I can fix up, There'll be an awful traffic mix-up! It takes Police to do the trick, To guide them through where traffic's thick – It takes Police to do the trick. They'll never crash now, They'll race at top speed. With Sergeant Mulvaney, himself, in the lead. The Mayor is there, And he thinks it is grand, And he raises his hat as they dash by the stand. The Mayor is there and the Aldermen too, All waving big banners of red, white and blue. And that is a story that NO ONE can beat When I say that I saw it on Mulberry Street! With a roar of its motor an airplane appears And dumps out confetti while everyone cheers And that makes a story that's really not bad! But it still could be better. Suppose that I add... A Chinaman who eats with sticks... A big Magician doing tricks.. A ten-foot beard that needs a comb... No time for more, I'm almost home. I swung 'round the corner and dashed through the gate, I ran up the steps and I felt simply GREAT! For I had a story that NO ONE could beat! And to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street! But Dad said quite calmly, “just draw up your stool” and tell me the sights on the way home from school” There was so much to tell, I JUST COULDN'T BEGIN! Dad looked at me sharply and pulled at his chin. He frowned at me sternly from there in his seat, “was there nothing to look at..No people to greet? Did nothing excite you or make your heart beat?” “Nothing,” I said, growing read as a beet, “But a plain horse and wagon on Mulberry Street.”

A Chinaman who eats with sticks was the line and this is the picture that got it removed.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [justcallmejoe] [ In reply to ]
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If you are curious I found what I think is the or perhaps a research paper with citations about how they studied his works.

https://sophia.stkate.edu/...050&context=rdyl


It's not too long of a read and like so many times there's a lot more depth and context than you get in a short online article.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [justcallmejoe] [ In reply to ]
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If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [justcallmejoe] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not getting the hullaballoo here.

Dr Seuss is not being cancelled.

Some of his books are being taken out of print, at the behest of the estate and/or publisher.

Books are taken out of print *all the time* for all kinds of reasons.

Whether or not these particular books were still economically viable (I doubt it), or were being published as a "completionist" presentation of his catalog, this selection carried an additional burden -- shame. Thanks to images that some kid sitting in a library might find sad-making, because they're crude stereotypes or mocking in some way.

How many of the pulled titles has anyone actually read? We have just one on our shelves, and the family was all in on Seuss when the kids were little.

The real classics remain.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Brownie28 wrote:
trail wrote:
I think we have to be really careful with cleansing literature.

My litmus test is Mark Twain. Mark Twain was straight racist in his early literature. But he changed. A lot. And ended up writing some of the best anti-racist satire there is. (though even that used some terminology that wouldn't fly today).

But I don't think we should mess with Twain one little bit. Rather we should equip readers with the tools to process it.

I'm willing to accept that maybe the readers of Dr. Seuss (or the children's cartoons mentioned) can't be reasonably expected to have developed those tools yet. And also that Dr. Seuss maybe never progressed or engaged in satire (I'm not familiar enough with his work - it never appealed to me in the slightest at any age).

This, exactly.

If works of literature or childrens cartoons or whatever presented racist concepts or beliefs in the past, that's part of history that should be preserved and understood. People were overtly racist back then, it makes sense that art and culture reflected that mindset. But to wipe it from existence is to ignore that it was a major societal issue at the time, what does the future look like if you don't really understand history?

I think it's fine to judge individuals within the context of their time period, there certainly were people with great contributions to this country and art and society who were shitty humans, that should contribute to our image of that person. But any works they produced should certainly be maintained and available if people want to dive into them.

I am not shocked by any of this. We have Mulberry street and there are some questionable cartoons in it for sure.

However, if you read his work he actually teaches lessons about not judging people among other things.

The Sneetches is clearly about racism/discrimination and we've used it to help discuss these things with our oldest son and will again with the younger son.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.


this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [justcallmejoe] [ In reply to ]
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justcallmejoe wrote:
I'm confused, that cartoon seems to be implying that the US was at one point complicit in a certain German leaders conquests.

2 years late in WW1
3+ years late in WW2.
Happy to embrace ex Nazis who developed weapons of terror and destruction... providing they shared that technology and then developed it further in the USA.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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But don’t all these things get cancelled in due course anyway?

Most books stop being in print. This is a natural end to things.

Barbar the elephant i think is different than curious George. People taking wild animals from Africa as pets is a thing.

As a note. I rewatched some old Disney/ animated movies and man some of the messaging was crazy. Little mermaid and the aristocats “everyone wants to be a cat” especially.
Last edited by: sosayusall: Mar 3, 21 9:40
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]
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sosayusall wrote:
But don’t all these things get cancelled in due course anyway?

Most books stop being in print. This is a natural end to things.

Barbar the elephant i think is different than curious George. People taking wild animals from Africa as pets is a thing.

As a note. I rewatched some old Disney/ animated movies and man some of the messaging was crazy. Little mermaid and the aristocats “everyone wants to be a cat” especially.


Not everything gets cancelled. I don't have my own kids, but I am sometimes shocked to see my nephews reading the same kids books I was read as a kid 40 years ago. Lots of that stuff sticks around, or if it goes away, it's because it's just replaced by something more relevant or "cooler." A book just no longer being available in print isn't the same as actively getting rid of it because it's now considered offensive.

Are we ready to "cancel" Shakespeare? Romeo and Juliet has very young teens committing suicide together. His plays are filled with stuff that would be considered misogynistic today, or sexist, or racist, or classist.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [SDG] [ In reply to ]
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SDG wrote:
slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.



this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.

Never. Dr. Seuss was not cancelled. You are being lied to.

The people who control the estate have stopped publishing some of the books that you have never heard of and never owned. They did that because he grew as a person and they decided that to preserve his legacy they would take the books with racist depictions in them out of print.

No one is burning his fucking books. The outrage is fake and being pushed by people who are trying to distract you.

The best way to know Biden is doing a good job is that the biggest controversies of the day are plastic potatoes and unread Dr. Seuss books.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting commentary from long time Conservative Jennifer Rubin
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/03/why-republicans-are-screeching-about-dr-seuss/
Why Republicans are screeching about Dr. Seuss


Republicans prefer to talk about amorphous memes than about policy or legislation.

Quote:
First, they feed the insatiable need for anger and resentment to fuel the base. Republicans need to fill their supporters with irrational, unchecked fury so as to remain the MAGA cult’s warriors in a forever war against the “left.” There will always be another Dr. Seuss story to fixate on; hence, the fodder for the base never runs out.


Quote:
Second, Dr. Seuss fulmination sure beats talking about policy issues for which Republicans have no answer or unpopular proposals (e.g., continue to freeze the minimum wage, reject $1,400 stimulus checks). There is nothing to be done about cultural phenomena; hence simply hollering about them serves to establish their political bona fides.


Quote:
Republicans take shelter in these empty memes with particular intensity when their own conduct and that of their white-supremacist allies are front and center (as was the case on Tuesday when FBI Director Christopher Wray testified about the role “racially motivated extremists” played in the Jan. 6 violent insurrection).



Rubin is spot on. The fixation with irrelevant and imagined cultural slights fits with Republican politicians’ conception of their roles. They are performers for right-wing media, not legislators or problem-solvers. Their outrage-of-the-day focus fits that mind-set and indeed gets them play time on right-wing outlets.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
SDG wrote:
slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.



this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.


Never. Dr. Seuss was not cancelled. You are being lied to.

The people who control the estate have stopped publishing some of the books that you have never heard of and never owned. They did that because he grew as a person and they decided that to preserve his legacy they would take the books with racist depictions in them out of print.

No one is burning his fucking books. The outrage is fake and being pushed by people who are trying to distract you.

The best way to know Biden is doing a good job is that the biggest controversies of the day are plastic potatoes and unread Dr. Seuss books.

I agree that Dr. Seuss is not being cancelled. However, let's not pretend that Dr. Seuss Enterprises took this action purely out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a response to some degree of public and academic discussion about his earlier work that has been ongoing for several years, and is (to one extent or another) a PR move.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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As you said not everything gets cancelled. The things getting “cancelled” are generally either the most offensive or for other business reasons. Dr suess isn’t going away. These controversies are a decade old. Certain books will get pulled. It’s a business decision by the publisher. Another publisher could buy the rights to it.

Shakespeare isn’t getting cancelled. He is the most published author of all time. It’s silly to pretend that is going away. If schools move to other books to teach, the schools are just choosing to elevate someone else. It’s not really cancelling William. There just is so much space/time. If schools choose they want to teach different things because the work of art from hundreds of years ago doesn’t resonate today, is that cancel culture?

cancel culture is most certainly not a new thing. It’s also not like these works are being burned/labeled as illegal - and put out of existence. Just business decisions.

I am not sure what the line of “this thing is cooler” vs “wow this is offensive” is. Offensive things generally are not cool in the mainstream to take up space, thus they get replaced by less offensive goods. Things getting cancelled normally by time because they fall out of mainstream for various reasons is normal, including because the audience has changed.
Last edited by: sosayusall: Mar 3, 21 12:12
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Never. Dr. Seuss was not cancelled. You are being lied to.//


All I know is that I have a couple of these books, and will be shortly putting them up on eBay. Perhaps this was like a stock pump and dump, books selling in the 1000's of dollars for the right issue and condition. Crappy paperbacks are going for $50 to 80 bucks. Imagine if you were a book store or hoarder and had a warehouse full of these, be like owning Tesla last year!!!
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
j p o wrote:
SDG wrote:
slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.



this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.


Never. Dr. Seuss was not cancelled. You are being lied to.

The people who control the estate have stopped publishing some of the books that you have never heard of and never owned. They did that because he grew as a person and they decided that to preserve his legacy they would take the books with racist depictions in them out of print.

No one is burning his fucking books. The outrage is fake and being pushed by people who are trying to distract you.

The best way to know Biden is doing a good job is that the biggest controversies of the day are plastic potatoes and unread Dr. Seuss books.

I agree that Dr. Seuss is not being cancelled. However, let's not pretend that Dr. Seuss Enterprises took this action purely out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a response to some degree of public and academic discussion about his earlier work that has been ongoing for several years, and is (to one extent or another) a PR move.

Let's also not pretend that some of the images in those specific books aren't racist as all hell.

It's to his credit that Geisel grew as a person but there is a reason these books are being taken out of print. And that Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are being retired. Song of the South isn't shown any more. And that eeny meeny miny mo had the words changed.

Changing times don't mean it used to be fine, it just means racists used to get away with it.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
j p o wrote:
slowguy wrote:
j p o wrote:
SDG wrote:
slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.



this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.


Never. Dr. Seuss was not cancelled. You are being lied to.

The people who control the estate have stopped publishing some of the books that you have never heard of and never owned. They did that because he grew as a person and they decided that to preserve his legacy they would take the books with racist depictions in them out of print.

No one is burning his fucking books. The outrage is fake and being pushed by people who are trying to distract you.

The best way to know Biden is doing a good job is that the biggest controversies of the day are plastic potatoes and unread Dr. Seuss books.


I agree that Dr. Seuss is not being cancelled. However, let's not pretend that Dr. Seuss Enterprises took this action purely out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a response to some degree of public and academic discussion about his earlier work that has been ongoing for several years, and is (to one extent or another) a PR move.


Let's also not pretend that some of the images in those specific books aren't racist as all hell.

It's to his credit that Geisel grew as a person but there is a reason these books are being taken out of print. And that Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are being retired. Song of the South isn't shown any more. And that eeny meeny miny mo had the words changed.

Changing times don't mean it used to be fine, it just means racists used to get away with it.

I think there are some of those images that are now considered racially insensitive or stereotypical. And some of his early cartooning is based in obvious racist stereotypes.

The questionable image in Mulberry St for example, is pretty mild. The picture of black people in If I Ran the Zoo is much more obviously offensive, but I'm not sure I really see anything particularly offensive in the other image that's being cited in that book of the "Arab" Chieftain.

My guess is that they're erring on the side of caution.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [SDG] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SDG wrote:
slowguy wrote:
If you wait long enough, basically anything will look bad in retrospect. The most innocent things from your childhood will be judged to be racist, or sexist, or evil in some way that couldn’t have even been imagined at the time of their creation.

Curious George is about a white man who brings a monkey home from Africa. Obviously racist.

Babaar is about a an Elephant who gets educated and then comes home to civilize his wild friends and family. Obviously an endorsement of white Christian colonialism.

Pinky and the Brain is about an intelligent mouse constantly berating his clearly mentally challenged brother, while constantly plotting acts of terrorism.

Loony Tunes made fun of people with speech impediments, mad light of firearms safety, and glorified violence against animals.

Pepe Le Pew was the epitome of rape culture.

Playing Cowboys and Indians,....do I even have to explain?

The Jetsons. Everyone in the future is apparently white, and the maid is a female robot. Racism and sexism in one shot.

Fat Albert. Fat shaming. Speech impediment shaming. Black stereotypes. And let’s not touch on the Bill Cosby aspect.

All it takes is time and distance, and almost anything can be reinterpreted in the worst light.



this is spot on. How long before people start burning their Dr. Seuss books (or any other book that offends them) in barrels in the town square.

First no one is saying ban the books, just read a good article on how library's handle these types of issues, Little House on the prairie being one of them. They move them out of the kids section to more Historical or Special collections. People check them out, but not just not kids, Librians and adults use them to teach and educate.

Yes some of the things you have above are inappropriate and stopped, some your clearly being silly.

But don't we as individuals and society learn, improve and grow?

Why is it bad to look back and say, yikes that was not really appropriate. I mean science books are changed all the time as we learn more, why should we not look at literature and say wow the way they portray xx is wrong and we need to be careful with this?

Oh you forgot Sanford & Son as another one that probably is best left behind.

So do you still think Tribes in africa are filled with a bunch of people running around naked eating each other cause they are natives and thats what they do.. (Oh yeah that episode of Gilligan's Island is probably left behind also).

I don't get why all the outrage, about looking back and saying ahhh that wasn't really the best. And in case you don't know Folks from China don't look like that picture or run around with sticks..

I guess it goes back to an observation I made a while ago about "Republicans" they wont admit they were wrong, they choose words carefully to avoid saying they were wrong. I enjoy now getting into discussion with some around me, and when I make a mistake and they pounce I just say oh yeah I was wrong, my mistake, now back here you said this and here is proof that is wrong.. silence. Look at all the covid shit.. anywhere along the way did they say oh wow that was some bad advice. NOPE but when a Dem does it they jump all over them, look you screwed up. Oh yeah at the time it seemed like the right thing to do was say don't wear a mask cause we needed um in the hospital, but yeah that was kind of bad, so a bit later we said where them.. Its called learning and growing, something it seems the Republicans are to perfect to do. I think this whole "cancel" culture comments of their is just another example. What you want us to say we wrong to own people.. Uhm no that's not happening, You mean it was wrong to depict blacks as dumb animals.. CANCEL CULTURE... I wonder if any Republican would look at the Tuskegee drug testing and admit yeah that was pretty wrong. Yeah, just like when you eat something and you don't like it, you dont go eat it again, is that food cancel culture should we still have lead in paint cause hey why not?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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Oh and they are not canceling Dr. Suess.

THE PUBLISHER decided not publish 6 of his books. 2 of which no library in about 100 mile radius even has copies of (boy that seems like a big loss) 2 other's I had not heard of and 2 were somewhat classics.

Rational folk are not saying to burn all his books, libraries are not pulling them from the shelves.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [justcallmejoe] [ In reply to ]
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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
Last edited by: DavHamm: Mar 3, 21 18:20
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Please explain why it is mild. As an Asian American I disagree. I don't think you understand our experience. Is it as severe as blacks? Obviously no, but because it is less doesn't mean it is mild.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
Please explain why it is mild. As an Asian American I disagree. I don't think you understand our experience. Is it as severe as blacks? Obviously no, but because it is less doesn't mean it is mild.

Of course I don't understand your experience, and neither do you understand mine. And I wouldn't presume to tell you what to take offense to. That said, relatively speaking, this illustration is a fairly mild one.

It depicts a Chinese man in fairly nondescript outfit, wearing a hat vaguely reminiscent of conical hats commonly found across Asia, and eating out of a bowl with chopsticks which originated in China. The shoes seem to be representative of Japanese wooden clogs, but other than that crossover of clothing items, the pictures itself doesn't show the man in a demeaning or ugly manner. Yes, he looks a little silly, but so does everyone else in the book, and in every Dr. Seuss book.



Seuss's depiction looks at least in the ballpark, for example, of this early photograph.





By contrast, this is one of his earlier depictions of Japan which is obviously and openly playing on racist stereotypes.



So, again, I would characterize the first cartoon as relatively mild. Mild compared to some of his overtly racist images from magazine/newspaper comics, and mild even compared to several of his depictions in some of his other children's books. If you see it differently, that's certainly your prerogative.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
hubcaps wrote:
Please explain why it is mild. As an Asian American I disagree. I don't think you understand our experience. Is it as severe as blacks? Obviously no, but because it is less doesn't mean it is mild.


Of course I don't understand your experience, and neither do you understand mine. And I wouldn't presume to tell you what to take offense to. That said, relatively speaking, this illustration is a fairly mild one.

It depicts a Chinese man in fairly nondescript outfit, wearing a hat vaguely reminiscent of conical hats commonly found across Asia, and eating out of a bowl with chopsticks which originated in China. The shoes seem to be representative of Japanese wooden clogs, but other than that crossover of clothing items, the pictures itself doesn't show the man in a demeaning or ugly manner. Yes, he looks a little silly, but so does everyone else in the book, and in every Dr. Seuss book.



Seuss's depiction looks at least in the ballpark, for example, of this early photograph.





By contrast, this is one of his earlier depictions of Japan which is obviously and openly playing on racist stereotypes.



So, again, I would characterize the first cartoon as relatively mild. Mild compared to some of his overtly racist images from magazine/newspaper comics, and mild even compared to several of his depictions in some of his other children's books. If you see it differently, that's certainly your prerogative.

Of course your skipping the words that go with that page.. something about people with sticks who come from countries to hard to spell.. yes china is so hard to spell, I guess Japan, or Korea must be the hard ones.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [hubcaps] [ In reply to ]
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hubcaps wrote:
Please explain why it is mild. As an Asian American I disagree. I don't think you understand our experience. Is it as severe as blacks? Obviously no, but because it is less doesn't mean it is mild.

Cause they are not asian american, so old American stereotypes are just silly fun.

Just wait he will post a pic of someone sitting stately who remotely looks like the person "running with sticks" and say see its reality...

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks explaining and defending what you know about your understanding and perspective. Sorry that it bothers you that you can't buy Mulberry Street anymore.
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Re: Dr Suess Too? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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Of course your skipping the words that go with that page.. something about people with sticks who come from countries to hard to spell.. yes china is so hard to spell, I guess Japan, or Korea must be the hard ones.

The comment and question was about the images, so,...go fucking figure, I stuck to the image. Of course we can also talk about the words associated with that image. They're not what you describe, of course, but don't let that get in the way of your self righteous outrage.

Here are the words:

...A Chinaman
Who eats with sticks...

That's the entirety of the text involved with this image. It's a Chinese man (Chinaman) eating with chopsticks (invented in China). Again, relatively mild.

There's nothing about countries that are hard to spell, so I'm not sure where you got that from.

The term "Chinaman" is probably the primary the offensive part, because we now associate "Chinaman" with negative stereotypes and racism. However, that wasn't necessarily how the term was used in 1937 when this book was published. It was similar to Englishman, Frenchman, etc. and was defined neutrally in dictionaries at the time, and used by Chinese people to self describe. Like many ethnic or national descriptions, it has taken on negative connotations now. Kind of like how a few years back, for several years, the preferred term was African Americans, and calling someone a Black person was frowned on.

Again, I'm not going to try to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't be offended by. But on the spectrum of offensive racist material, this stuff is extremely mild.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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