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Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer"
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And we wonder why the swim portion of many triathlons are cancelled.

I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly. Each wave would have a separte colored swim cap to identify what wave they are actually in. Not only would this be a safety feature for race organizers as they would be able to concentrate on those waves with less capable swimmers it would also insure the compentent swimmers do not have to swim over, through, around slower swimmers who accidently or intentionally seed themselves incorrectly.

I have also heard some participants purposely start in a slower swim wave at rolling starts as they believe the time they lose in the swim due to having to swim through slower swimmers is more than made up by having the slingshot affect of being able to "legally" draft through the masses and as a result having a faster bike time with a lot less effort.


Is triathlon going soft?
Criticising safety-first policies may not be popular, but increasingly foreshortened events are starting to erode entrants’ faith, argues Tim Heming
Posted: 27 September 2019by Tim Heming
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Ironman CEO Andrew Messick is categorical: “The race course has to be safe for everybody, not just people who are young and strong.” Ironman has its critics on many issues, but Messick knows this stance cannot easily be challenged. Whether it’s rough seas, blue-green algae, cold water, hot weather, flooding, landslides, bush fires or sharks, you name it, we’ve had it in triathlon in the past few years.
Nobody wants to see a sporting event end in tragedy, but neither do triathletes want to spend hundreds of pounds on a race and have part or all of it cancelled, as has been happening with increasing frequency. It can’t all be blamed on Mother Nature either. The climate might be changing, but so are attitudes to risk – predicated on an increasing blame culture – that means erring on the side of caution like never before. Competitors often sacrifice their entry fees due to hardline ‘no refund’ policies because organisers’ costs are already sunk, and everyone is left feeling compromised and underwhelmed.
There is a paradox here, though. Ironman is billed as the hardest one-day event on the planet, yet its owners preside over a finance-driven model which demands as many bodies on the start-line as possible, regardless of athletic competence.
The aspirational marketing that claims ‘Anything Is Possible’ for anyone has a flipside – it downplays the challenge. Not in the surface level hype or in the small print of the disclaimers, but in decisions on race day, where the novice who might rarely leave the pool, now encounters the swell of a sea swim, and the race director isn’t confident to proceed.
Ironman is a very different beast to parkrun, for example, that happily celebrates its average times getting slower because it encourages mass participation. A 3.8km swim, 180km bike and 42.2km run puts a severe load on anyone’s body, but the achievement of completing it has been normalised in recent years. It’s no longer the preserve of the quirky few with years of endurance sport experience and the resilience to cope with inclement conditions. Too many of us now turn up wide-eyed and underprepared. Even if organisers don’t encourage it, they have to cater for it, so when there’s a large show of hands at the start of an iron-distance race from those admitting it’s their first triathlon, there should be concern not applause.
Whether an example of society’s increasing need for quick gratification or not, we should question the impulse to go longer and harder at the earliest opportunity. Perceptions have become skewed. After all, a sprint triathlon is an oxymoron. It’s not a 100-yard dash but a solid test of aerobic capacity and a great way of racing more frequently, mastering skills and building an endurance base.
And if more of us concentrate on strengthening these foundations, then when it comes to eventually going long, it will also help instil confidence in event organisers that their triathletes are conditioned to race in testing conditions. The
result? Everybody benefits.

Wetsuits: Creating the artificial swimmer? by 1 September 16, 2013

'Is a wearing a wetsuit cheating?' This is a question that we are sure many of you have thought about at least once so we have decided to open a debate. Richard from Train2Swim has kindly given us his views below - What do you think? Do you agree? Please tell us by commenting the post!


“I felt I was swimming like a duck” - This was how I felt the first time I donned a wetsuit designed for competitive open water swimming!


I come from a competitive swimming background where I performed at a national level, so buoyancy for me has never been an issue in the water. But when it comes down to temperatures below 18 degrees I become a shivering wreck, so I bite the bullet and wear a wetsuit just to keep me warm.
When I first wore a wetsuit it shot me back to the days when they first introduced the fastskin suits to pool swimming, all manner of records were being broken from club to international and it all seemed to be down to the skin you wore on your skin. Initially this was great especially for those who could afford the hefty price tag but very quickly (even at the age of 14) I realised that these suits were starting to tarnish everything that I loved about my sport of swimming. The swimming mind set was changing from “how can I tweak my training and stroke to improve my performance” to “how can we improve the equipment we wear to make it easier for swimmers”.
For me any competitive sport is about what YOU can achieve through hard work and dedication, it teaches you that there are no shortcuts to your best performance and when you achieve your genetic potential you experience possibly one of the greatest indescribable mix of emotions,.
So even though everyone was still wearing the skins I resorted back to my trusty pair of speedo’s, I didn’t want to break records because of a suit I wanted to break records because of my own hard work.
Much to my surprise the suits were banned not long after the Olympic games the reason was the controversy caused by the large number of world records that were broken by competitors wearing polyurethane swimsuits, the next generation of the original fast skin suits. These suits were deemed to be providing an artificial advantage by increasing buoyancy and reducing drag.
So the question I ask is why are wetsuits in competitive open water or triathlon continuing to move to a point where they do the swimming for you? I can understand that from a safety point of view wetsuits give that peace of mind to any event organiser or governing body but when does it get to a point that the buoyancy in a wetsuit is cheating?
I heard a competitor at an event not so long ago state that wetsuits even the playing field in triathlon as swimming is the weakest event for the majority of athletes! When has competitive sport ever been about evening up the playing field!?
Other competitors have stated that learning to swim with the legs raised is too difficult (As a swim coach I can assure you that with the right instruction this isn’t a difficult thing to achieve) but do not fear the wetsuit company has designed a suit with extra buoyancy in the legs to tackle this issue.
For me designing products that do the work for you is no different than blood doping, it sends out the message that you don’t have to correct that kick because we can do it for you! Where is the sense of achievement in that?
At any high level event I do strongly believe that the use of wetsuits that give an unnatural advantage should be banned, this is what will “Even the playing field” and reveal our true champions.
For those starting out, using a wetsuit with a lot of buoyancy is a great way to make your first open water swim enjoyable and stress free but don’t let it become the solution to the problem. Everyone can achieve a great swim with the right training and believe you me no matter whether you are competing in the Olympics games or at a club tri doing it and finishing it knowing that you put the hard work and effort into correcting your faults will give you a greater sense of achievement than knowing that your wetsuit did it for you.
Richard Watts
Owner train2tri/train2swim
http://www.train2swim.com



Last edited by: 2brokenhips: Oct 15, 19 5:50
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Really hard post to read. If someone else wrote something, just link to it instead of pasting the entire thing in.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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As for the "safe event" article... no kidding? You can't have much of an event, with the goal of making money, that isn't going to check the "safety first" box. You don't have pros without money, so that kind of ends the discussion assuming you want a championship at the end. The 'extreme' tris have popped up to cater to the hardcore clientele. Ironman is not that.

I do agree more people should participate in sprints (and olys for that matter) for plenty of reasons, but it seems most look at a triathlon as a massive event that must be an ultimate test. Even experienced triathletes look to "move up" to longer and longer distances as though it is the natural progression to prove yourself to your peers (and impress non-participants). It's the endurance way. Go longer, not faster.

To the swimming article... to my knowledge no one has legitimately claimed that the point of wetsuits is to level the playing field. Does it have that effect? Maybe (probably not really), but it's not the point. And I'd argue that no one is winning as a crappy swimmer because they donned a wetsuit.

I find it ridiculous that anyone can get this worked up about wetsuits, and completely ignore the bikes. I've been saying for a while now that triathlon would do itself a favor by standardizing the bikes, even if it's only enforced at the pro level. You can buy a lot more time on the bike than in the water.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I love those anti-wetsuit articles. Technology advances are fine for cycling and running, but swim in a Speedo. If that's your perspective, go back to Merckx rules on the bike with a hairnet for a helmet and run barefoot.
Last edited by: offpiste.reese: Oct 15, 19 7:18
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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2brokenhips wrote:
I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly.

Outside of Boston, very few marathons REQUIRE or verify times for seeding, especially the largest ones. you just enter your estimated time.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
2brokenhips wrote:
I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly.


Outside of Boston, very few marathons REQUIRE or verify times for seeding, especially the largest ones. you just enter your estimated time.

to verify they could swim a certain time, then that would mean IM would require participants to have completed a prior swim event or triathlon (of what distance???). I don't believe that was a requirement even at IM peak participation. I guess I have yet to do an IM event where I was severely impacted by somebody slower than myself who I had to swim around or over. Sure it's happened but it's not like it's a big part of my swims. But maybe as a MOP swimmer I'm not running into that scenario as much.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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As for the rest of this jumbled post

1) Slingshot effect, this may be my n=1 but I have heard many similar stories. I got extremely cold at the Indian Wells 70.3 last year and spent 14 minutes in T1 after a slow swim so I had to ride through crowds to T2. I put out maybe 250 NP which was higher than normal but with that dead flat course it only tuned out to be good for 2:25. Without getting into my position and all other things to compare, I rode 2:24 on a much more hilly course on 245 NP earlier this year. Rather than enjoying the slingshot effect, I found myself constantly turning my head to swing left and right, having to break when coming up on other riders swinging out from their own slingshot, having carefully ride left (sometimes going over center line) when passing the inevitable BOP draft packs, and not being able to take the best lines on turns because of the crowds. I certainly lost more time than I could have gained by slingshot and it wasn't even possible most of the time because when someone is on their way to a 3 hour bike split and you are going sub-2:30, you can only get that slingshot for 1-2 seconds before flying by other riders and that is assuming that rider is alone such that you can do that. They aren't. You find yourself riding into the wind on the left side of the road because the stream of riders is too constant for that.

2) As someone alluded to before, if you want hard swims, go to extreme triathlons. Ironman is a business and they're going to keep doing what they do as long as people pay for it. While I think there are a few swims that should not be shortened or cancelled, I do think the large majority of cancelled swims are for good and uncontrollable reasons. That is just a fact of life for swimming in open water. Even extreme triathlon swims will get cancelled in the event of thunderstorms and algae blooms.

3) Wetsuits are not cheating. Go hook up with Synthetic and have fun talking about wetsuits and vaporfly and let me know when you do a triathlon in 58 degree water in a speedo (and don't wear goggles for god's sake, that would be technology!) riding a penny farthing and running barefoot. What can and should be discussed are the temperature limits of wearing a wetsuit and the ridiculous rule of "wetsuit optional" Wetsuits should either be allowed or banned for all but the oldest participants.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Virtually no marathons require you to put up papers to go in a particular pace start.

That swim article was written in 2013 I believe, since then FINA is allowing pro OW swimmers to wear wetsuits in some conditions.

And I'm pretty sure they still have to swim to win the race, I have yet to see the wetsuit that swims for you..

And I love how the author put one on because it was cold to him, but that is ok because it was cold. Well guess what, there are people that call bullshit on that, they swim in 50 or below temps with just a speedo. And on the other end, there are people that get cold when it is 85+, cold is a relative thing. But hey, lets go ahead and use your personal temp to set the standards..
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.


I think the problem is, by using the "worst" simmers as their gauge what they actual do to make it *legit* cancellation by using a "safety" concern...."Oh well we cant get the lifeguards out there" so the swim is cancelled. They can't handle the 1' chop out there, so swim cancelled. "the coast guard cancelled, dont complain to me, they cancelled it", etc etc.

Cus they aren't going to have a swim without safety personal out there. That is just a liability lawsuit waiting to happen. And that's sorta the imo sneaky little thing that means there is no push back....."You can't complain if the safety personal can't get in the water".....It's why you can say they are thinking of the "safety" of the athletes when in reality they are simply making it an easy out. Blame "safety" and no one can push back or your an "asshole". But reality is, there are many swims that are cancelled for no good reason than actually regulating it for the worst swimmers and if it's any adversity, cue the "safety" clause.

ETA: And hell I dont blame the RD....If my career is built on some off the couch athlete who's not taken the training serious and dies cus of some adversity, that's with me forever...that "stat" is now forever there. And hell we are finding out that swim deaths lately aren't even the "crappy" swimmers...it's just people with undiagnosed conditions that are drowning cus they have a heart attack in a place that basically has zero way of saving them- water environment. So hell yeah RD's are going to call it more often than not call it. It's also why I would never be a good RD nor want to be one.

But if they can actually get in the water then there is no point in giving them an option, well I guess there is, I would wager you then just give them like the wetsuit option- no swim and scrubbed from results but you are an "ironman" blah blah blah.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 8:57
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.


I think the problem is, by using the "worst" simmers as their gauge what they actual do to make it *legit* cancellation by using a "safety" concern...."Oh well we cant get the lifeguards out there" so the swim is cancelled. They can't handle the 1' chop out there, so swim cancelled. "the coast guard cancelled, dont complain to me, they cancelled it", etc etc.

Cus they aren't going to have a swim without safety personal out there. That is just a liability lawsuit waiting to happen. And that's sorta the imo sneaky little thing that means there is no push back....."You can't complain if the safety personal can't get in the water".....

But if they can actually get in the water then there is no point in giving them an option, well I guess there is, I would wager you then just give them like the wetsuit option- no swim and scrubbed from results but you are an "ironman" blah blah blah.

I know at IM 70.3 Chattanooga this year they shortened the swim for the age groupers so we didn't have to swim the upstream portion apparently because they determined the pros struggled more than they would have liked. Of course, as far as I know, the RD didn't really get into specifics about what "struggling" meant for the pros. Prior to the race, I didn't hear anybody discussing concerns about the flow being too fast. I don't believe it was mentioned at athlete briefings.

I'm no fast swimmer but I'm at least getting in the pool and doing enough where I know going into a race I can complete the distance with no issues, wetsuit/no-wetsuit, current/no-current. It's a bit frustrating when race after race I'll be talking to people and I almost always here from people mention they have hardly done any swimming for this triathlon or they've swam once in the past 3 months so good thing it's wetsuit legal or at least optional. The pattern seems to be more of they are not prioritizing a minimal amount of swim training.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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It's a bit frustrating when race after race I'll be talking to people and I almost always here from people mention they have hardly done any swimming for this triathlon or they've swam once in the past 3 months so good thing it's wetsuit legal or at least optional. The pattern seems to be more of they are not prioritizing a minimal amount of swim training.

-----

I made a edit just as you replied to me, but here's the thing. This is why swims are going to continue to get cancelled. Because we live in a society that everyone can do anything with no consequences. I'd cancel them too if I was a RD and knew a percentage of the people doing them aren't adequately prepared.

You know what I do with athletes who behave like that? I give them 3 strikes and then fire them. But most RD's behave in that manner and they'd likely have no athletes for their events. So the RD's have to "bend" to the lowest person just to cover their own ass, and it's smart as hell on their part. But then you add in the fact that some swim deaths are simply because veteran swimmer didn't get his heart checked the last 5 years, so your then kinda like "WTF are we suppose to do". I mean of course they died, they had a f'ing heart attack in a water environment where the nearest LG was 72m away and they were surrounded by 178 other people and so in the most critical moment the LG simply "missed' seeing the episode at the right moment.

So I totally get why we cancel races now. We cater to the lowest ability and thus have to make decisions on that. It's only going to get worse. I remember my top collegiate athlete came into the sport 3 years ago, her 1st 5 races in 4 different states she did 1 full S-B-R triathlon. Everything else was swim cancelled for variety of reasons.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 9:08
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely understand why RD directors do it. it's also disappointing when you hear people get excited about a swim being shortened or cancelled. I guess it's the new norm I suppose. I don't get too bent out of shape about it but I've only had to deal with a shortened swim not a full cancel. I'd be more upset having to deal with a cancelled swim for an IM. My first year of triathlon I did an olympic distance triathlon with an ocean swim as my last race of the season. Water was cold and it was like swimming in a washing machine getting smacked in the face with a wave half the time I popped my head up to sight. I wonder if that race occurred today if they would cancel the swim.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree that tons of AGers do minimal swimming to prepare, outright DROWNING (without a overriding cardiac arrest or other life-ending cardiac attack) just doesn't happen in triathlons. Despite literally millions and millions of people having done them.

Seriously, when was the last time someone healthy with zero cardiac events, actually straight up drowned in a triathlon? I'd love to know.

All the deaths have been hard to prevent - I think they have almost entirely been due to cardiac events (heart attacks) leading to drowning. And they still have been very few.

With this reality, this whole notion of 'swim safety testing' seems like a bunch of elitist BS to me. If people were actually drowning because of their lack of swim ability, then sure, go ahead and swim test or have a strict requirement of having proven swim capability in a prior race (I think some long open water swim events have such a requirement, you can't be a totally green OWS person and enter). But for triathlons with wetsuits, it's pointless, because nobody drowns. Even the suckiest swimmers don't drown, they just don't make the cutoff.

It would actually make a lot more sense for people to get BIKE certification of sorts before getting a swim certification, since on the bike, you literally can wipe out others with your bad handling, and this DOES happen regularly in races. Anyone who is calling for swim certification needs to get their reality and priorities straight and call for bike certification first.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Ive done 3 IM sanctioned events. Here are my results from all the money paid:

1 Swim
2 Bike
2 Runs

Out of 9 possible disciplines, I was only able to do 5 of them. One race was cancelled the morning of, the other full - the swim was cancelled. 1 out of 3 events had a swim.

So from my perspective, I care less about working on swimming since it most likely isnt going to happen anyway. I do train for the swim, but not speed... only distance to make sure I have the endurance.

The reason I am a soft swimmer, and maybe why a lot of others are soft swimmers is because we expect the swim will most likely not take place, therefore dont take it seriously.

As for the people who never practice swimming, or cant confidently swim the distance... well that's just stupid. Thats the one area where things can go disastrously wrong. At least if something goes wrong on the bike or run you have the chance to maneuver or mitigate the issue.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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5 of 9 is not that great... damn they owe you something
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And I’m not for “swim tests” but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

It’s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious as to where everybody is from where the swims keep getting cancelled. I'm in Minnesota and have done probably around 20 local races over the last 6 years and have had the full SBR in each of them. In fact I can't think of a single race that I'm heard of from the community that has had the swim cancelled or shortened in that time. Even the last one I did had warning signs posted about 'swimmers itch' being in the lake but we went it anyways. I know we've (generally) got nice clean lakes here that aren't terribly big so no real chop has a chance to form, but I find it interesting that I keep hearing of this problem where swims are chronically cancelled.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And I’m not for “swim tests” but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

It’s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.
'

No, I am quite aware of that OLD and TIRED argument of these poor swimmers taking up resources that should be spent saving people from drowning.

Again - has anyone actually DROWNED without a cardiac event in a tri? Even more importantly, has any single one of those alleged drowning events occured because the staff were so occupied helping out the struggling AG swimmers? To date, I haven't heard of a single case where the staff was so overwhelmed by the struggling AGers that they couldn't keep an eye out. Not one.

The struggling AGers take minimal resources from the safety staff on the water. They are already wearing life-presever wetsuits and just have to hang onto a buoy or kayak until they catch their breath, then DNF or resume. Piece of cake. There are no AGers, no matter how lousy, that drown wearing a wetsuit because of exhaustion. I doubt they even come close, once they stop swimming.

Again, I am in no way defending terrible, unprepared swimmers. If you're not prepared for the race, that's your fault. But triathlons, even Ironmans, are NOT dangerous swim races, period. No testing needed, even if you literally can't complete the swim course.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Two comments to the prevailing posts in this thread..
1. Marathons don't require proof of time. Most don't, RnR series has you estimate and places you in a corral accordingly. Not the best because you can lie, but at least you put something in there. Disney races, as absurdly slow as they are and you really have NO chance at a PR, require a time on a certified course for corral placement... at least a 10k for 1/2 mary, and a 1/2 mary for the full marathon races. Maybe something as simple as pre assigning pace group placement for the swim might keep people from shuffling around in the morning and getting in the way being first off the dock and doing a slow breast stroke right off the bat.

2. The lack of swim training at the AG level that is being reported. I cannot believe this many people would ignore such a good aerobic training source. I used to think it was a waste of time for me since at my age and level, I'm not picking up more than 10 minutes AT BEST in an IM swim, but I still swam twice a week. Then someone said something that clicked, you can add aerobic endurance/efficiency in the water. And you can do it without impacting the bike or run workouts appreciably. It's now a priority, and if I need to skip a run workout, I'll try and squeeze in an extra swim somewhere else in the week.

Not sure what to do about this, but it is disheartening when you hear people get excited they don't have to swim. The TT bike starts with 2500 ppl is no fun at all.
Last edited by: djhuff7: Oct 15, 19 10:00
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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If you're not prepared for the race, that's your fault. But triathlons, even Ironmans, are NOT dangerous swim races, period

——-

Of course they a lot of times aren’t dangerous. Have you read my comments lol. I’ve said they use “safety” of athletes as the catch all to cater to poorly prepared athletes so those athletes don’t die in their events and make it worse.

But where tri swims have become dangerous is our “anyone” can do anything sport. We as a sport allow those weak swimmers to basically ruin the swim portion of swims. And again I get why. It’s the opposite of your viewpoint. Having ill prepared athletes does in fact make it a dangerous event.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [djhuff7] [ In reply to ]
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My only addition to those comments -

The swim aerobic training as a helpful tool, really works only if you are a pretty capable swimmer, like at least MOP, if not FOMOP.

I say this having myself gone from the full range from near dead-last swim finisher for a year, to as high as top 18% in a big HIM. As a true BOP swimmer, I was simply unable to pull hard enough in the water to really work my cardio. Sure, I could max out my cardio for short sprints, but anything over 200 yards, and my arms wouldn't be able to keep pace, and I'd get very little cardio training even if my arms were totally rocked after the workout.

As a BOMOP slighty better swimmer, I could hold harder paces longer, but I didn't have the swim base/ability to do those hard-cardio workouts without really fatiguing myself and compromising any upcoming hard bike/run workouts. I had to choose - toast myself on the swim, or go easier and save to get in a decent quality bike/run.

Now that I'm definitely MOP and even up to MOP+, I'm finally at the point where I definitely feel that I can get some excellent cardio and endurance training on the swim that I can x-over to bike/run. My arms are now strong enough that they don't get so blasted that they limit me anymore.

I'd bet that the bulk of AGers who are slower than MOP were like me - they simply cannot use swimming as a enhancing cardio/endurance tool, because they are still so bad at swimming.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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All the more reason to work to get better!!!

I guess I was lucky in that even as an AOS, I caught on pretty quick, I’d say I’m top 1/3 or so. But I hear you, those first 1/2 dozen workouts after a swim break my arms are pretty shredded before I’m out of breath.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And I’m not for “swim tests” but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

It’s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.

Agreed, a single sprint race and then right to IM distance race for an "off the couch" athlete is certainly not optimal.

So what did you do when starting out in the sport? How many races and what distances before the first of you IM distances races? Did you follow your own advice or were you a befuddled newbie who did what so many others do, jumping to IM quicker than was a good idea?
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But where tri swims have become dangerous is our “anyone” can do anything sport.

That's the problem with any sport that gets branded in the minds of the public as "extreme" or "hard core." People want to take on the biggest, baddest challenge they can find, do it once, and call themselves an IRONMAN (TM). Same thing happens in mountaineering and Mt. Everest. (Or Denali or Rainier for in the US). Many people do these things because they are there, because they can, not because they actually enjoy the sport.

My personal "elitist" opinion is that for longer distance races we should lower the cutoff times which I think would be great for the sport. Not that I'm proposing this exact time, but say IM had a 14hr cutoff. If you want to be "hardcore" you now really have to think long and hard about the cutoff. 17 hours is pretty lax and you can put out a 2hr swim, 9hr bike, and still have 6 hours to jog-walk a marathon. Boom, you're an Ironman. But at 14 hours you really have to make some hard choices. Do you try to take 2 hours off the bike and also do a 5hr marathon? Or, you maybe have to work on your swim to give yourself a little more margin on the run? It's not quite as easy to hit the register button.

So IM loses some initial business. But I'd venture there would be more people who try a sprint or Oly distance first, and maybe instead of burying themselves in way too much training for their existing base fitness, but not enough to really enjoy the IM distance and suffer through 16 or 17 hours, they start with a shorter race, actually enjoy it, get faster, and then by the time they go for their bucketlist IM race, they are a triathlete.
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