Don't call me sir. My parents were married to each other.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

These are my thought too but I can hear people saying its naïve. When I was in the navy, on a missile boats, anti-submarine operstion (not US navy), being a part of a submarine crew was a huge privilege. You couldn't just go and join one. They went thru. rigorous training, of all aspects, before being admitted to be part of a submarine crew. Now you have also ballistic missile subs (this one is a guided missile sub), so stacks are much higher.
Perhaps Automaticjack is correct to think there is no place for woman in a submarine, not sure.

It is indeed a different navy senior chief. Safe to say simpler times were had at sea without the complications of mixed gender crews. Better then and worse now? I'd just leave it at different and salute those still wearing the uniform making it work as best they can.

To the OP's point the submarine community was the last to transition. Maturation to change catching up and ongoing.

I don't think it's appropriate, under any circumstances, for grown men to make lists of their co-workers and how they would like to have sex with them.
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It's not that I'm disagreeing with you in concept but these aren't really 'grown men'. They're still mostly kids with mostly a minimal amount of education and training.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Close. More accurately they are kids with a very intense level of education, training and responsibility working in an environment that is trying to kill them and will kill them if they make a mistake.

I was considered an "old man" at 30. I was a chief petty officer, had served on 3 boats, and was qualified senior in rate years ago - responsible for a division of about 17 men that were responsible for the mechanical maintenance and operation of a nuclear reactor.

What most other services don't realize is a submarine is in an "at war status" the moment they dive. You may think it is only pretend, but it is very real to us, and thinking like that is drilled into us from the day we report as an OBNL. (That probably isn't allowed any longer either - Oxygen Breathing No Load - pronounced Obnal)

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

That isn’t sexism.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My sister retired from the Army last year as a CW4 after serving for 29 years (including about 12 years as a jarhead).

Believe it or not, she shares a sentiment similar to yours.

Can someone please explain why the threat of war makes a difference when it comes to sexual harassment?

Honest question.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Who implied, or said, it does?

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Post #15 by JSA.
Post #16 by you.
Post #19 by len.
Post #23 by B4itwascold.

Please correct my misunderstanding, but all the posts seem to imply that the threat of war makes a difference. I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'd like to know specifically what you all mean by that.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

That's now what I said. I was responding to Kay's comment about using office-oriented harassment training in a military environment, pointing out the differences between the two. I perform harassment training on a regular basis. I use vastly different techniques when addressing office personnel than I do when addressing floor supervisors than I do when addressing floor workers. The same training cannot be directed to vastly distinct groups with the hopes it will resonate the same with everyone. That was the point being made.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

One of the most effective parts of our training has been to work through case studies of real examples of workplace harrassment. Would that principle not be effective for the armed services?

What training might be effective for them?

And I too was wondering the same as Barry P, though I understand it wasn't the point you were making. It did seem to be being implied by others.

Thanks for the clarification.

Then how would it be handled differently? Like, I get it, I wouldn't expect an HR person to come in with a power point and a 30 minute corporate video that you have have to sign off on. Just curious.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Compared to what? I'm not necessarily in disagreement, but that's the sort of claim that's like trying to prove a negative. OK, your boat didn't sink, and we avoided WW3 ~ bravo, but perhaps a 'kinder, gentler' Navy could have still accomplished that while scoring higher on the social justice card...?

To Spud's point, I was in during the '90s, over which time we had a front-row seat to plenty of culture changes ~ some I supported, some maybe not so much; and some abrupt, others more gradual. Smoking went from just about anywhere anytime, to only restricted work spaces (like we could smoke in our shop but not common areas like the galley, berthing, etc) to only a designated smoking lounge, to not at all inside and only on the fantail outside. Crews went from all-male, to having limited mixed-gender detachments aboard but not full-time crew, to fully-mixed crews on non-combatant ships, to mixed crews on some larger surface combatants (but not subs yet). Just for added kicks, the whole 'Don't ask, Don't tell' policy dropped in just before my first deployment. This was also all not long after the Tailhook scandal, so that was a big driver in a lot of our sexual harassment training as well.

Having said all that, hell yeah when we had females on board many of the guys would talk about them in overtly sexual manner like they were steaks being waved in front of the tiger cage. Not real dignified, but I'm in the camp that feels that drive is mostly hard-wired; we can only train people to do a better job of maintaining professional bearing despite what they might be thinking to themselves. Like sure as hell don't be writing it down...!

I fail to see what boobies on the internet have to do with sexual harassment in the workplace. I suppose people are just mindless drones that need to be protected from their basic impulses because they have no control over themselves? Are you saying we should legislate even more Puritan ideals for society than we already have?

So I'll speak to a few items, and maybe clear up some misconceptions.



Of course we do regular anti-harassment training. As I'm sure you know, that type of training doesn't always work, and probably works less effectively for large groups of very young men, and even less so for very young men under high stress work environments with little to no outlet for stress and energy relief. That's not an excuse, just an acknowledgment of reality. We do lectures, case studies, videos, etc. I think you'll find that, in the military or civilian world, this training really only works for people who are already on board with behaving well or maybe borderline. Doesn't really work to massively change people who are prone to bad behavior.



The concerns in a submarine or ship at sea have a few aspects that aren't found in a normal workplace. First, a Sailor who feels threatened doesn't really have anywhere to go. You can't just get up and leave the submarine. Additionally, submarines and ships are a maze of tight spaces, passageways, and areas where Sailors need to go to do their work regularly, and where they might be alone and unable to exit quickly if they find themselves isolated with a person trying to do them harm. Lastly, the issue is more critical than in a normal workplace because every Sailor on a submarine is relying on every other Sailor for their personal safety. Everyone is supposed to trust the rest of the crew with their lives in a combat environment, and in a metal tube under the water, where your environment is pretty much trying to kill you all the time.



You can't really frame this in terms of "co-workers." Like it or not, it's just different. These men and women aren't co-workers, they're shipmates. They don't just work in the same office for 8hrs every day. They live together; work in confined spaces together for long hours at all times of the day; train together to fight fires, flooding, torpedo attacks, etc; eat every meal together, work out together, and spend whatever small amount of personal time they get together. Does that mitigate or exacerbate this conduct? Probably both to a degree.



Not really the case. Submariners are mostly chosen for their ability to get through the curriculum and maintain a clearance. Nuclear training is pretty challenging. What you tend to get, in my experience, is a lot of really smart young men (19-24ish) who aren't exactly the most socially adept. You see the socially awkward to some extent on surface ships as well, but it seems to be more prevalent on subs, for a variety of reasons.



Young, yes. However, these kids have a ton of education and training. Tons.



I don't think it makes sexual harassment ok, but the point people were trying to make is that you simply can't frame this in your mind as a scenario taking place in a workplace like the one in which you work. That would give you a faulty impression of what's going on.


In general, this is bad, but honestly, not the end of the world. Submarines have only integrated women over the past 5 or 6 years, and this submarine had only had women aboard for 4 months when this misconduct was discovered. It's honestly not at all surprising that we would have challenges and incidents when taking a platform that had been crewed by only males for the entire history of the Navy and then had women added to the mix. I'm sure these Sailors got some additional training as the integration was approaching, to get them up to speed on what would be acceptable and what wouldn't. However, it's a massive change to their lives. I would have been shocked if there were no issues at all. This is pretty mild. No women were assaulted. The list of sex acts apparently didn't include any forcible acts, so no desire to rape anyone. Just a bunch of immature, socially awkward guys gossiping about which girls they'd like to screw. If you attended an all boys high school or college for years, and suddenly a group of girls from your age group was dropped into the school, I bet you'd see much the same behavior.

Embarrassing? Sure. A massive indictment of culture in the Navy? Probably not.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Not easily. On the one hand, you want these guys to be all alpha-male, all jacked up and ready to fight, feeling invincible. On the other hand, you want to curb their adolescent tendencies towards members of the opposite sex. What we used to do in the Army (my buddies who are still in say it hasn't changed much) is approach it a little different. You try to take gender out of it. You are all soldiers, all one unit, all part of the team. Then you move towards family. You are brothers and sisters in arms and you have each other's backs. That's your brother on one side of you and your sister on the other. How would you react if the guys were rating your sister on her f#uckability? That shit wouldn't fly. So don't let it happen with your sisters in arms. We don't do that here!

In the corporate world, you have your attorney come in and explain it. You have the attorney share why it is wrong, then scare the shit out of them telling them they will lose their jobs. In the military, you don't want to bring in JAG or some high ranking officer. You have the BN commander work with the Company Commander and the Company Commander work with the Squad Leaders and handle it at a lower level, using guys who interact with these soldiers every day.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

and even less so for very young men under high stress work environments with little to no outlet for stress and energy relief.
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And I have to believe that there's another layer to this phenomenon. For example, I have a job where I can go home and be mostly immune to the corporation's harassment policies. If me and a couple of guy friends are sitting around the yard, grilling, and talking about the hotties at work, no one's the wiser and there's no human resources interaction. The people on the boat/ sub don't get this down time.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Exactly! An incredible number of civilians would be terminated on a daily basis if they were monitored and held to a workplace conduct standard 24/7.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That all makes sense.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I spent 22 years in that little corner of the canoe club and retired in 2002. Mostly fast boats - 637's, 688's, - playing cat and mouse with Ivan. I'm a member of the Order of the Ditch, a Blue Nose, a Shell Back, and a Golden Dragon. I can answer any question you might have, assuming it isn't classified.[/quote] Squid ;)

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Be Uncommon

Annually.

All on line.

Not anymore.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Boobies on the internet? More like teen age boys with open access to very explicit porn for years. Much of it depicting violence against women. Big porn sites use big data to figure out which things drive people to keep clicking in many ways similiar to the gambling industry. So you have kids with these images banging around their head and we expect a few hours of seminars to counteract that. I don't think it would be puritanical to ban such things. If you think people are so rational how do you explain a group of highly trained people operating a nuclear sub doing this stuff.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot