I think this is a particular issue anytime young men and women interact. Similar story a few years ago with the Harvard soccer teams. But for a submarine crew, this is a far more critical issue.

One would hope that people would not behave this way. However it seems they do and the question is how far do you push the equality issue if it is bound to interfere with operational effectiveness. Submarines are very tight quarters where people literally bunk inches away from each other.

We live in a very schizophrenic society. We want no sexual harassment in the workplace but one just has to turn on the tv or computer and watch people have at it at the drop of a hat. Often without any notion of proper consent. We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

This kind of stuff has been going on as long as women have been assigned to Navy ships. I saw it start when the women were assigned to the submarine and destroyer tenders, as well as shore establishments. It increased as women were assigned to surface combatants, so it is not surprising to see it on submarines and smaller warships.

Trying to mix up young women and men and expect them to not, well, mix it up, is to ignore human behaviors that go back beyond recorded time.

Its not just young men. Have you never been around a group of women talking about a particular man or group of men? The locker room talk is just as bad.

I will say, that for some reason, men always seem to be stupid enough to write these thoughts down and get busted for them.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Haven't young men been doing this since they discovered the opposite sex?

For fucks sake, Facebook started as a "Hot or Not" type app, yet is lauded as a major player in social media now. Zuckerberg just figured out how to grow it better and became a billionaire out of doing something very similar these sailors did.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?

I am surprised this is a story in 2019. Stuff like this has been going on since creation;


"In the Alpha Betha of Ben Sira (Alphabetum Siracidis, or Sepher Ben Sira), an anonymous collection of midrashic proverbs probably compiled in the 11th century C.E., it is explained more explicitly that the conflict arose because Adam, as a way of asserting his authority over Lilith, insisted that she lie beneath him during sexual intercourse (23 A-B). Lilith, however, considering herself to be Adam's equal, refused, and after pronouncing the Ineffable Name (i.e. the magic name of God) flew off into the air."

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.

And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.

Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....

Well, if you follow the report, some of the Navy command chain are to blame too. Clearly not enough was done.

The armed forces are not the same as a civilian workplace. I doubt you have ever been concerned your office might rupture, flood with water, and sink to the bottom of the ocean. I also doubt your workplace is filled with 18-22 year olds who signed up for a job requiring them to risk their lives for their country. I'm not justifying or excusing the conduct. I'm saying they world they live in is very, very different than the world in which we live. The Navy does workplace training. All branches do. But the armed forces should not be compared to an office filled with cubicles. Again, it's not a justification of the conduct, just reality of the situation.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

This pretty much sums it up, but to my perspective ...

There are no need for women on submarines from a manning standpoint. Can they do the job? Sure. Do we need them to get the job done? No. It will just cause problems like this. I had enough things to worry about without shit like this. My wife had plenty to think about without shit like this. If you haven't done the job you can't begin to fathom the stress the crew is under at times. They don't need this distraction.

MMCS(SS). Retired. NEC 3366/76

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

My "we" is society. By the time young men get to the Navy it is hard to change attitudes. I don't know what kind of training the Navy does for this kind of stuff. My impression was that submariners were specifically chosen for ability to get alone and work in close quarters etc. If you cannot get them to behave well maybe integrating submarine crews is a bad idea.

Last week I was in Newfoundland. Sitting in hotel bar. The Video gambling machine is in plain sight on one side and the atm on the other and the alcohol is right in the middle. Great set up for some guy who has a gambling problem who has to attend a seminar on preventing workplace harassment or whatever. It was quite fascinating to watch a thirty something year old guy have the beers brought to him as he repeatedly hit the button the millisecond the wheels stopped turning for the next hit. Punctuated by reloads from the atm of 200 dollars every 20 minutes or so. Gov't at its best.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm sure you're right, though my training has consisted of only 3 hours with an employment lawyer once every 4-5 years. In other words, not a lot of time, but done very effectively in small groups with a lot of discussion in the session. That may be less easy to do in the armed forces (small group sizes), but the actual time spent has been fairly limited.

It is a submarine. You are stuck with the two hundred or whatever people in a small area and you cannot get away. You specifically train to hide in the depths of the ocean evading people who are trying to kill you. Imagine if you had to go to work and stay there for months and had little contact with the outside world while operating a complex machine in a hostile environment.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Simply put, I don't think it's appropriate, under any circumstances, for grown men to make lists of their co-workers and how they would like to have sex with them.

Four important rules to live by...
1. Don't write anything down
2. No pictures
3. No video
4. Deny, deny, deny

Then what response are you looking for from your initial post? Please qualify your knowledge of life on a US Navy Submarine.

I spent 22 years in that little corner of the canoe club and retired in 2002. Mostly fast boats - 637's, 688's, - playing cat and mouse with Ivan. I'm a member of the Order of the Ditch, a Blue Nose, a Shell Back, and a Golden Dragon. I can answer any question you might have, assuming it isn't classified.

I also made Chief in 1990, before the "let's be nice" CPO initiation went into effect. I look at what is going on today (I still keep in touch with the community) and just shake my head at what has happen. The world I served in doesn't exist any longer. I personally think that is a very bad thing, but time will tell. In my time we did things much worse than what these kids did, and we were none the worse for it.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

See Lens post above.

We kept Submarines gender segregated for a whole lot of reasons. Opening billets to women because of stupidity is probably going to get more people killed in the dirt than the bubbleheads, but there will be plenty of pregnant women coming off submarines no doubt.

If you don't think women in the Service can't be just as predatory, you've never met many.

I legit saw a female Captain hook her claws into my best friend and spit him out inside of 8 months, she got married to him (her second servicemember husband) and two months later after he went to Career course hopped on a SFC who was married.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

no argument with you Sir. I should net made a bold statement saying "everyone".

Don't call me sir. My parents were married to each other.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

These are my thought too but I can hear people saying its naïve. When I was in the navy, on a missile boats, anti-submarine operstion (not US navy), being a part of a submarine crew was a huge privilege. You couldn't just go and join one. They went thru. rigorous training, of all aspects, before being admitted to be part of a submarine crew. Now you have also ballistic missile subs (this one is a guided missile sub), so stacks are much higher.
Perhaps Automaticjack is correct to think there is no place for woman in a submarine, not sure.

It is indeed a different navy senior chief. Safe to say simpler times were had at sea without the complications of mixed gender crews. Better then and worse now? I'd just leave it at different and salute those still wearing the uniform making it work as best they can.

To the OP's point the submarine community was the last to transition. Maturation to change catching up and ongoing.

I don't think it's appropriate, under any circumstances, for grown men to make lists of their co-workers and how they would like to have sex with them.
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It's not that I'm disagreeing with you in concept but these aren't really 'grown men'. They're still mostly kids with mostly a minimal amount of education and training.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Close. More accurately they are kids with a very intense level of education, training and responsibility working in an environment that is trying to kill them and will kill them if they make a mistake.

I was considered an "old man" at 30. I was a chief petty officer, had served on 3 boats, and was qualified senior in rate years ago - responsible for a division of about 17 men that were responsible for the mechanical maintenance and operation of a nuclear reactor.

What most other services don't realize is a submarine is in an "at war status" the moment they dive. You may think it is only pretend, but it is very real to us, and thinking like that is drilled into us from the day we report as an OBNL. (That probably isn't allowed any longer either - Oxygen Breathing No Load - pronounced Obnal)

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

That isn’t sexism.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My sister retired from the Army last year as a CW4 after serving for 29 years (including about 12 years as a jarhead).

Believe it or not, she shares a sentiment similar to yours.

Can someone please explain why the threat of war makes a difference when it comes to sexual harassment?

Honest question.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Who implied, or said, it does?

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Post #15 by JSA.
Post #16 by you.
Post #19 by len.
Post #23 by B4itwascold.

Please correct my misunderstanding, but all the posts seem to imply that the threat of war makes a difference. I'm not saying it doesn't, but I'd like to know specifically what you all mean by that.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

That's now what I said. I was responding to Kay's comment about using office-oriented harassment training in a military environment, pointing out the differences between the two. I perform harassment training on a regular basis. I use vastly different techniques when addressing office personnel than I do when addressing floor supervisors than I do when addressing floor workers. The same training cannot be directed to vastly distinct groups with the hopes it will resonate the same with everyone. That was the point being made.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

One of the most effective parts of our training has been to work through case studies of real examples of workplace harrassment. Would that principle not be effective for the armed services?

What training might be effective for them?

And I too was wondering the same as Barry P, though I understand it wasn't the point you were making. It did seem to be being implied by others.

Thanks for the clarification.

Then how would it be handled differently? Like, I get it, I wouldn't expect an HR person to come in with a power point and a 30 minute corporate video that you have have to sign off on. Just curious.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Compared to what? I'm not necessarily in disagreement, but that's the sort of claim that's like trying to prove a negative. OK, your boat didn't sink, and we avoided WW3 ~ bravo, but perhaps a 'kinder, gentler' Navy could have still accomplished that while scoring higher on the social justice card...?

To Spud's point, I was in during the '90s, over which time we had a front-row seat to plenty of culture changes ~ some I supported, some maybe not so much; and some abrupt, others more gradual. Smoking went from just about anywhere anytime, to only restricted work spaces (like we could smoke in our shop but not common areas like the galley, berthing, etc) to only a designated smoking lounge, to not at all inside and only on the fantail outside. Crews went from all-male, to having limited mixed-gender detachments aboard but not full-time crew, to fully-mixed crews on non-combatant ships, to mixed crews on some larger surface combatants (but not subs yet). Just for added kicks, the whole 'Don't ask, Don't tell' policy dropped in just before my first deployment. This was also all not long after the Tailhook scandal, so that was a big driver in a lot of our sexual harassment training as well.

Having said all that, hell yeah when we had females on board many of the guys would talk about them in overtly sexual manner like they were steaks being waved in front of the tiger cage. Not real dignified, but I'm in the camp that feels that drive is mostly hard-wired; we can only train people to do a better job of maintaining professional bearing despite what they might be thinking to themselves. Like sure as hell don't be writing it down...!

I fail to see what boobies on the internet have to do with sexual harassment in the workplace. I suppose people are just mindless drones that need to be protected from their basic impulses because they have no control over themselves? Are you saying we should legislate even more Puritan ideals for society than we already have?

So I'll speak to a few items, and maybe clear up some misconceptions.



Of course we do regular anti-harassment training. As I'm sure you know, that type of training doesn't always work, and probably works less effectively for large groups of very young men, and even less so for very young men under high stress work environments with little to no outlet for stress and energy relief. That's not an excuse, just an acknowledgment of reality. We do lectures, case studies, videos, etc. I think you'll find that, in the military or civilian world, this training really only works for people who are already on board with behaving well or maybe borderline. Doesn't really work to massively change people who are prone to bad behavior.



The concerns in a submarine or ship at sea have a few aspects that aren't found in a normal workplace. First, a Sailor who feels threatened doesn't really have anywhere to go. You can't just get up and leave the submarine. Additionally, submarines and ships are a maze of tight spaces, passageways, and areas where Sailors need to go to do their work regularly, and where they might be alone and unable to exit quickly if they find themselves isolated with a person trying to do them harm. Lastly, the issue is more critical than in a normal workplace because every Sailor on a submarine is relying on every other Sailor for their personal safety. Everyone is supposed to trust the rest of the crew with their lives in a combat environment, and in a metal tube under the water, where your environment is pretty much trying to kill you all the time.



You can't really frame this in terms of "co-workers." Like it or not, it's just different. These men and women aren't co-workers, they're shipmates. They don't just work in the same office for 8hrs every day. They live together; work in confined spaces together for long hours at all times of the day; train together to fight fires, flooding, torpedo attacks, etc; eat every meal together, work out together, and spend whatever small amount of personal time they get together. Does that mitigate or exacerbate this conduct? Probably both to a degree.



Not really the case. Submariners are mostly chosen for their ability to get through the curriculum and maintain a clearance. Nuclear training is pretty challenging. What you tend to get, in my experience, is a lot of really smart young men (19-24ish) who aren't exactly the most socially adept. You see the socially awkward to some extent on surface ships as well, but it seems to be more prevalent on subs, for a variety of reasons.



Young, yes. However, these kids have a ton of education and training. Tons.



I don't think it makes sexual harassment ok, but the point people were trying to make is that you simply can't frame this in your mind as a scenario taking place in a workplace like the one in which you work. That would give you a faulty impression of what's going on.


In general, this is bad, but honestly, not the end of the world. Submarines have only integrated women over the past 5 or 6 years, and this submarine had only had women aboard for 4 months when this misconduct was discovered. It's honestly not at all surprising that we would have challenges and incidents when taking a platform that had been crewed by only males for the entire history of the Navy and then had women added to the mix. I'm sure these Sailors got some additional training as the integration was approaching, to get them up to speed on what would be acceptable and what wouldn't. However, it's a massive change to their lives. I would have been shocked if there were no issues at all. This is pretty mild. No women were assaulted. The list of sex acts apparently didn't include any forcible acts, so no desire to rape anyone. Just a bunch of immature, socially awkward guys gossiping about which girls they'd like to screw. If you attended an all boys high school or college for years, and suddenly a group of girls from your age group was dropped into the school, I bet you'd see much the same behavior.

Embarrassing? Sure. A massive indictment of culture in the Navy? Probably not.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Not easily. On the one hand, you want these guys to be all alpha-male, all jacked up and ready to fight, feeling invincible. On the other hand, you want to curb their adolescent tendencies towards members of the opposite sex. What we used to do in the Army (my buddies who are still in say it hasn't changed much) is approach it a little different. You try to take gender out of it. You are all soldiers, all one unit, all part of the team. Then you move towards family. You are brothers and sisters in arms and you have each other's backs. That's your brother on one side of you and your sister on the other. How would you react if the guys were rating your sister on her f#uckability? That shit wouldn't fly. So don't let it happen with your sisters in arms. We don't do that here!

In the corporate world, you have your attorney come in and explain it. You have the attorney share why it is wrong, then scare the shit out of them telling them they will lose their jobs. In the military, you don't want to bring in JAG or some high ranking officer. You have the BN commander work with the Company Commander and the Company Commander work with the Squad Leaders and handle it at a lower level, using guys who interact with these soldiers every day.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

and even less so for very young men under high stress work environments with little to no outlet for stress and energy relief.
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And I have to believe that there's another layer to this phenomenon. For example, I have a job where I can go home and be mostly immune to the corporation's harassment policies. If me and a couple of guy friends are sitting around the yard, grilling, and talking about the hotties at work, no one's the wiser and there's no human resources interaction. The people on the boat/ sub don't get this down time.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Exactly! An incredible number of civilians would be terminated on a daily basis if they were monitored and held to a workplace conduct standard 24/7.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That all makes sense.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I spent 22 years in that little corner of the canoe club and retired in 2002. Mostly fast boats - 637's, 688's, - playing cat and mouse with Ivan. I'm a member of the Order of the Ditch, a Blue Nose, a Shell Back, and a Golden Dragon. I can answer any question you might have, assuming it isn't classified.[/quote] Squid ;)

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Be Uncommon

Annually.

All on line.

Not anymore.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Boobies on the internet? More like teen age boys with open access to very explicit porn for years. Much of it depicting violence against women. Big porn sites use big data to figure out which things drive people to keep clicking in many ways similiar to the gambling industry. So you have kids with these images banging around their head and we expect a few hours of seminars to counteract that. I don't think it would be puritanical to ban such things. If you think people are so rational how do you explain a group of highly trained people operating a nuclear sub doing this stuff.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I prefer Bubblehead, thank you :)

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Testosterone?

Honestly, this is not an issue of irrationality or loss of self control. It was a choice to engage in distasteful juvenile behavior. They thought they wouldn't get caught, and probably thought no one was going to be hurt.


With respect to banning porn, I don't know if it would be "puritanical," but it would surely be nearly impossible to accomplish. They are already banned from viewing porn on the submarine on their government computer networks. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but it would be somewhat challenging, and the IT departments already do screenings to make sure that stuff isn't being viewed on the networks. Of course, they can bring along their own personal computers, or ipads, or magazines, or whatever, and Sailors have been doing this for as long as Sailors and porn existed. Can't really get rid of that, and I'm not convinced you should.

By the way, on the integrated ships I've sailed on, the female Sailors have had some of the nastiest porn and sex toys stashed away on deployments.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I need to remember that one. Thx.

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Be Uncommon

I just finished my annual training on twmms all done until next year. If they have other training scheduled in a classroom, I wasn’t invited nor ordered to attend.
Going to do my suicide prevention and active shooter tomorrow, both online.

I think it depends on the leadership of the service and DOD how much and in what format you have to do. I’ve had years where it was all online, and just endured a year of quarterly everything (harassment, suicide prevention, EO, drugs/alcohol...)

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

I don't know about some of you. But life out at the FLOT is not really nice. You want hard charging alpha male types that want to get after it. When you put folks that are segregated by gender some of the behavior degenerates to some juvenile shit I suppose...but it's really not about being segregated. It's that you're at the tip of the spear and you may die the next day. My Cavalry Squadron and my Recce Troop was the first to have a female FSO. If anything, she was worse than her Soldiers when it came to dishing it out. She integrated into the unit just fine. Women talk about men the same way, is that sexism?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Probably is, but we care much less about it. And frankly, the threat behind it is lesser than otherwise, although I understand woman can be aggressors too as you said.

Yes it is sexism. Those with experience understand fully that in combat units sexism works only if all understand that they are members of the team, they are "brothers" "shipmates" and they face more important matters to worry about. As a brother, your FSO understood if she was to take than she had to give. A pragmatic "can't beat them might as well join them" workable approach with an appreciable amount of checking self pride. It is a double edge sword however, and unit cohesion is critical to not feeling that other edge. My take is that equal sexism can work as well as zero tolerance no sexism, until it doesn't.

A couple of things, as officers we never got told that we had to look out for her. There were never any discussions or inferences of lines we had to protect her from. I'm sure she was carefully selected from the female FA officers that joined the FA Battalion that summer. However, when it comes to combat arms units, I've seen soft men not know what they were getting into and be much more of a hindrance to their Soldiers than many female officers. So there's that issue as well.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Sounds like the command is relying on unit cohesion and skilled leadership to make the inherent sexism in the unit work.

Someone has taken Management 101...

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_____________________
Fester from Detroit, Mi

Sailors should be getting online and face to face training on sexual harassment, bystander intervention, SAPR policy and reporting, etc. Additionally, command leadership gets dedicated training on all the processes as well as setting command climate, the SAPR reps get monthly training and continuing education to maintain their Victim's Advocate certifications, etc.

You're right that the requirements for what gets done virtual vs face to face changes frequently.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)