I guess we'll know if they go on with a planned change of command ceremony and all the pomp that goes with it, or if his new assignment is a desk in a windowless office in a minor building at the Yokosuka naval base.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Looks like it is an early relief. He was due to retire in the next couple of weeks, but they're pulling him early.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Ouch! It's one of the burdens and responsibilities of command, though. I certainly never commanded an organization at his level, but even down where I was, it was understood that if you didn't perform it was your career.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Will this cost him any money since he's retiring i.e. a missed promotion or something along those lines?

In the Marine Corps we called this a "Change of Command without the band."

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Exactly so! ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think that flag and general officers must have their current paygrades approved by Congress upon retirement, which is normally just a formality.

However, in cases such as being relieved of command, Congress may not approve a permanent 3-star rank at retirement, meaning he'd revert to his 2-star rank of Rear Admiral (Upper Half). At least, that's my understanding of things.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

He was already planning to retire. He wasn't looking at promotion anyway. The only issue would be if he's not allowed to retire as a 3-star. I believe Congress has to approve his retirement at that rank. 1 and 2 star ranks are permanent, but 3 and 4 are temporary and require confirmation.

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Slowguy

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Yeah that was my question. Is the pay scale significantly different between 2 and 3?

I'd guess there's probably about 10K per year difference in after taxes retirement pay between the two ranks. So the difference between about 118K and 108K.

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Slowguy

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Added up over his expected post-retirement lifespan (25 to 40 years or longer, depending upon his age at retirement), the financial hit could be significant.

And then there's the matter of just what employment he could secure with the civilian defense contractor establishment or similar employers, given he's just been relieved for cause or close to it. Normally, general officers and flag officers such as fleet commanders can expect a lucrative offer from General Dynamics or Newport News Shipbuilding or with a big K Street lobbying firm or some premier consulting firm, mostly because of their contacts within the Department of Defense. Would be maybe be untouchable as far as they're concerned, at least for the first few years of his retirement?

Taken together, the VADM is looking at a serious hit to his wallet, potentially. That's cold comfort in the face of nearly 20 dead sailors over the summer, I know, but it's at least something for the retribution crowd to hang its cover on.

On a sidenote, I busted a few young Sailors and Marines at captain's mast (it's called "office hours" in the Marine Corps, and I mostly just read off what the sergeant major wanted me to hit them with) over the years (the standard reduction in rank, half-month's pay times two months, extra military instruction, confinement to quarters, etc.) and I felt bad about that. I can't imagine ever having to relieve a flag officer of command and don't know if I'd have ever had the strength to do it. I just get too sympathetic and 'understanding' about stuff like that. Which is why I knew when it was time to get piped over the side when I did. I didn't want to find out.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I don't really expect he's going to have much trouble finding a job. He was expected to retire on Sep 7th. My guess is that his early relief was mostly to avoid the optic of what might be seen as a fancy ostentatious change of command and retirement ceremony so quickly on the heels of this latest tragedy. You can't really, in good taste, stand up there with all the bunting, sideboys, bells, pipes, etc, and talk about what a great guy the Admiral is, and give him an award, standing in front of the Sailors and families who are feeling the pain of these incidents.

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Slowguy

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Great insights. Thanks.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Great Ars Technica article -- very detailed -- on the McCain, Fitzgerald and other Navy collisions of late. The author is a former Navy officer and has stood the bridge watch at sea.

With the USS McCain collision, even Navy tech can’t overcome human shortcomings | Ars Technica

There's also a link to the 7th Fleet statement about the Fitzgerald's collision and who's been relieved of duty to this point:

"The commanding officer, executive officer and command master chief of the guided-missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) were relieved of their duties by Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, Commander, Seventh Fleet, on August 18. Additionally, a number of officer and enlisted watch standers were held accountable. The determinations were made following a thorough review of the facts and circumstances leading up to the June 17 collision between Fitzgerald and the merchant vessel ACX Crystal.

The collision was avoidable and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship. Within Fitzgerald, flawed watch stander teamwork and inadequate leadership contributed to the collision that claimed the lives of seven Fitzgerald Sailors, injured three more, and damaged both ships... Several junior officers were relieved of their duties due to poor seamanship and flawed teamwork as bridge and combat information center watch standers. Additional administrative actions were taken against members of both watch teams."

Seventh Fleet Announces USS Fitzgerald Accountability Determinations > Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet > Display

With McCain, there may also have been a loss of steering involved that, coupled with the possible confusion suffered by watchstanders as they transited an extremely busy Strait of Malacca, contributed to the collision with a merchant ship.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

In general, the article makes some good points. I would quibble with a couple of items. First, he makes a judgement call on which ship (McCain or the merchant) had right of way, which I just don't think we can justifiably make right now. Second, his mention of the "eat their young" mindset in the Surface community is a little outdated, and was probably accurate when he was in the Navy 20-some years ago. Of course, there are still some Commanders who lead that way, but in general, the fleet has moved much more towards an environment that accepts some level of learning by making mistakes, debriefing and discussing, and then moving forward, rather than just shooting a Sailor or Officer in the head after a single mistake. That said, some things are non-recoverable, and fault for collision accompanied by the loss of Sailors is definitely one of them.

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Slowguy

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I agree with you on both your quibbles. I think it's way too early on the McCain collision to assign that level of fault. Also, I remember when the Navy (I forget which CNO at the time) made a conscious decision -- and publicized it through ALNAVs and the Navy Times -- to end that "eat their young" mindset in the SWO community, starting at SWOS in Newport, RI and out to the Fleet and I think the service has done a good job of not wrecking a JO's career for a simple mistake, especially at the Ensign/LT(jg) levels.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

These ships literally can turn on a dime (compared to a merchant ship).

How are they are going to be somehow prepared for a combat situation when they can't even figure out Watch handover and can easily be sunk by being rammed by a commercial vessel during this time?

That's a disgrace to the Navy, the Military and the Nation.

Pompous squids...

The bodies of all 10 of the McCain's missing Sailors have been recovered:

Bodies of all 10 sailors missing on USS John S. McCain have been recovered - The Washington Post

The 10 sailors were identified as:

• Electronics Technician 1st Class Charles Nathan Findley, 31, of Amazonia, Mo.;
• Interior Communications Electrician 1st Class Abraham Lopez, 39, of El Paso;
• Electronics Technician 2nd Class Kevin Sayer Bushell, 26, of Gaithersburg, Md.;
• Electronics Technician 2nd Class Jacob Daniel Drake, 21, of Cable, Ohio;
• Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Timothy Thomas Eckels Jr., 23, of Manchester, Md.;
• Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Corey George Ingram, 28, of Poughkeepsie, N.Y.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class Dustin Louis Doyon, 26, of Suffield, Conn.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class John Henry Hoagland III, 20, of Killeen, Tex.
• Interior Communications Electrician 3rd Class Logan Stephen Palmer, 23, of Decatur, Ill.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class, Kenneth Aaron Smith, 22, of Cherry Hill, N.J.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Wow,...so much fail in a single post. Impressive.

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Slowguy

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Rest easy shipmates.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Wow! Average age around 26 so sad. We have to better, this is totally unexceptionable.
RIP fallen heroes.

It's a real tragedy. Simply horrible.

All ETs and ISs, too. I wonder if that was their berthing area that was hit or if it was their work space? Given the time of the morning, seems like it'd be their berthing area, but I'm no shipboard life expert, that's for sure.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

A respectful article on these heroes.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4830024/Bodies-ten-sailors-recovered-USS-John-S-McCain.html

Thanks for posting their stories. They gave their lives in service to their country. Very sad.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Served as an ET aboard 2 surface combatants... Working spaces on both were well upstairs (03-05 level), since that's where the radios & radars were/are located. Berthings were down near the waterline (1st/3rd levels below main deck). Only a couple exceptions would be some special equipment spaces for the spooks that were down in the bowels, but those were all centrally located within the hull and not outboard where they'd be susceptible to an exterior collision/breach.