Are China and NK taking out our guided middle ships one by one/is this coincidence or something more going on? Or is the timing foil hat on too tight?

My merchant brothers on the sea say if it's big an gray stay away.

A destroyer is kind of little and gray. (Though I don't know how big this merchant ship was).

500' is big

Kinda long, but not that massive. Mass wins. As the USS Fitzgerald figured out. (though the angle of attack had a lot to do with that).

In the Navy, destroyers are often known as 'small boys' and 'tin cans.' As you say, while 500' is fairly lengthy for what is actually a smallish man 'o war, its mass would be nowhere near that of the typical merchant vessel. Universal Law of Gross Tonnage would come into play in any collision.

In this case, the Navy ship sustained damage on its port side aft (along the rear areas of its left side), which is generally where you might see damage if the two ships that collided were steaming according to the right of way protocols at sea.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Reports are that 10 Sailors missing and 5 injured.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

WTF, slowguy???

How can there be this much incompetence in command? Missing sailors is a euphemism for we haven't identified the dead bodies yet...

Should you be posting less and commanding more; seriously, how is this happening?

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

Perhaps we could wait to find out what actually happened before deciding this was more incompetence.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

No doubt there's tons more to learn about what went on, but has there ever been another time when two such similar incidents occurred so near in time to one another? If the Navy had one black eye, then this has to be like two black eyes and a bloody nose. A third after this, and it's like near decapitation!

Serious question though - what happens in the Navy at a high process level for these incidents? What I mean is, does the Navy do like a 90 minute response and stand down? I'm thinking of my employer's policy. For example, this past spring there was a death on an outage in the South. There was an immediate stand down and safety brief for all ongoing outages upon learning of the incident.

Anything like that?

Man oh man. I would not want to be a watch these days.

---

Gnothi Seauton.

Well you won most inappropriate post of the week

If it's flying a Filipino flag you may be on to something

This is horrible, horrible news. I can't believe the year the Navy is having, sir.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

TIMES TWO.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

X2 - Do you think it is appropriate to hold all Naval officers responsible for two mishaps? Attacking Slowguy is uncalled for and quite tacky.

I am confused.
They make cars like the Tesla that can drive through traffic autonomously. And we have ships that cost $1.8 billion, are suppose to avoid missile attacks, but are running into merchant ships.

RIP to the fallen heros.

Well I took SSP's final comment there more as laudatory towards Slowguy's proven skills. i.e., He should be off ST and back out in the surface fleet commanding so as to prevent more of these occurrences! He's successfully commanded a surface combatant at the O5 level and even commanded as a commodore for a while. So I'm pretty sure SSP's is spot on with his/her comment.

As to the tinfoil hat thing--it would certainly be a asymmetrical way to get after one of the components of our layered air defense, and BMD, to take these class ships out in such a manner. Tom Clancy kind of stuff. So I doubt it.

/r

---

Steve

I can appreciate you giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I saw one line about incompetency in the Navy, and then the other telling him that he should be posting less and working more. Taken together, they didn't seem to be laudatory.

Both can fail given a proper injection of incompetence.

Been a merchant marine for quite a few years, never heard it. Regulations apply to all, screw ups happens to anybody.

What this means is navy ships changing course during manuvers,like the JSM nightime.

and people think planes are going to fly themselves.

---

ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
we're doomed

In each of the two recent incidents, the bow of the merchant ship impacted the side of the Navy ship. So, technically...

---

king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

Must be our new cloaking technology.

I read SSP's post the same way.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

For the record, I commanded a ship at the O4 level and was a Commodore as an O5.

I didn't take Sally's post as an insult. However, I do think we should find out what happened before we level accusations of incompetence. It may turn out that that's exactly the cause, but it's really too early to say, in this particular case.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Just curious Slowguy, in this day in age with modern "radar," satellites, GPS, communications in general, how can something like this even come close to happening? Seems like they should be able to see another vessel while they are miles away and change course.

---

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

In general, in open ocean, you're right. I don't know what happened in this situation, but it's not unusual for lots of vessels to be transiting the same direction through choke points like the Strait of Malacca, in fairly close proximity. All it takes is for one vessel to turn the wrong way, or lose steering control, or something else, and a collision could happen.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I have helmed through the Straits on more than one occasion, the shear volume of traffic can be amazingly high there.

---

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

I'm waiting to use the phrase "thanks Commodore Obvious," just so you know.

For those asking, "How can this sort of thing happen?" here's a study to put things in perspective. The linked report comes from the European Maritime Safety Administration, and looks at maritime accidents from 2011-2015. In 2015 alone, they count over 3000 accidents with over 100 fatalities, nearly 1000 people injured, and 35 ships lost. 297 (16%) of the incidents were collisions.

This is not to excuse anything that has happened recently with the US Navy, but just to shed some additional light on the idea that it's a great big ocean, how come ships can't just not hit each other?

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/...dents-2011-2015.html

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

What's the OPTEMPO like for the Navy's ships these days? I know that it was high even back when we were looking at John Lehman's 600-ship Navy (aka "the salad days") but with the same amount of ocean to cover and with a battle force capacity of 272 ships as of FY 2016, but an FY 2015 requirement of 308 ships to keep the sea lines of communication open and fulfill all the mission taskers laid on it the Navy's got to be running its hulls full bore, and beyond, at present. I can't imagine the pressure those officers and Sailors are under to keep things going and cover all the nation's commitments.

As a SWO, do you think that kind of imbalance may be making ships' crews, at least implicitly, or even subconsciously, rush things a bit when they're underway? I know our OPTEMPO in the line of work I used to be in was a KILLER. 48/24 sea-shore rotations were the order of the day and if you got a full 24 months on shore duty you were lucky. From what I hear, the pace of operations is even more intense nowadays.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Judging from the photo of the ship's aft port side it looks like the sea rushed in and filled some large spaces, all containing Sailors, in a hurry. People who've never done the damage control thing have no idea how fast and hard that water can enter a space that's at or below the waterline of a ship.

If any Sailors were standing watch out on the port side deck, along the rails and aft to the fantail of the ship, they'd be knocked on their rears -- if not tumbled overboard -- before they knew it.

In the photo, you can see John S. McCain is holed at the waterline (BIG HOLE). I don't know what spaces and compartments there are in that area on an Arleigh Burke class destroyer, but there are bound to be plenty of them (engineering, berthing, weps/missiles/magazines (maybe)) in that vicinity. The damage control effort must have been very intense for quite a while.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I want to be careful describing OPTEMPO, because I don't have any numbers to support a position. However, my impression is that OPTEMPO is pretty high. More importantly, it feels like there's s a mismatch between the time and resources required to train and maintain the fleet, and the time and resources being provided. I think you're seeing similar issues with other Services, and it's no excuse for botched basics, but the military (at the unit level) has a lot of trouble saying no to additional requirements. Doing more with less is the norm, and Surface Warfare seems to embrace doing even more with even less.

I'll be interested to see what comes from CNO's mandated investigation into fleet-wide cause and effect. Several years ago, I specialized in mine warfare, and then over the last year or so I've been training for my post in Moscow. As a result, I've had less exposure to what's going on with the small boys or amphibs than I would have before then.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I obviously don't know for sure, but given the timing, there shouldn't have been anyone out on deck except for maybe whatever lookout watch was posted on the fantail. The collision happened before sunrise, and normally ships don't allow much crew up on the weather decks until after sunrise, specifically so they won't get hurt or fall overboard.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Thank G-d for that bit of small fortune, then. Navy's lost enough Sailors to Dave Jones' locker this year already.

I was never ship's company on a gator freighter but I helped out enough up in the medical spaces whenever possible (I was both preventive medicine-trained as well as independent duty trained as a Doc, so I came in handy in tight spots) and we all also stood watches whenever we could, mainly to learn something about the "haze gray and underway" life. A couple of Marine brethren of mine even qualified for the ESWS badge. For sure, watchstanding aboard a ship at sea is NO JOKE.

The life for a Navy ship's crew is also TOUGH, and I give them all the respect in the world. This tragedy also illustrates perfectly how potentially dangerous underway operations really are.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

First remains are reported as having been found in the flooded compartments of the ship. Malaysia is saying they found other remains at sea, not confirmed to be US Sailors yet.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Although I was an IDC I did stand OOD Underway watches. I find it a little interesting that both collisions hit in the same general vicinity, Port Side mid ship.

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

I stand corrected, the Google picture search for USS FITZGERALD showed damage from the MCCAIN

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

Yeah, for awhile, all the news outlets were showing photos of FITZGERALD as B-roll for MCCAIN. FITZ was struck stbd side forward. MCCAIN was struck port side aft.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

The way John S. McCain was holed by that merchant vessel, I'm guessing those poor Sailors never stood a chance, not with the rate of flooding that occurred at first. No chance to do much of anything in the way of damage control, no way to stand up to the amount of water coming in from the outside. Also, why the remains found at sea may, sadly, be those of other Sailors. The terrible power of the ocean rushing in and then rushing back out would have been unstoppable initially.

May G-d rest their souls.

Eternal Father, Strong to Save (The Navy Hymn) - YouTube

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

McClatchey is asking a similar question now:

Is Cyber Warfare to Blame for Recent Collisions of US Warships?

"The Pentagon won’t yet say how the USS John S. McCain was rammed by an oil tanker near Singapore, but red flags are flying as the Navy’s decades-old reliance on electronic guidance systems increasing looks like another target of cyberattack."

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

7th Fleet Admiral relieved

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...m_term=.0485ff75455e

http://www.foxnews.com/...shap-in-pacific.html

Not surprised. And he won't be the first flag and/or senior officer who'll either fall on his sword voluntarily or be made to fall on his sword and then swiftly cashiered over the seeming issues occurring within the 7th Fleet. In the Navy, responsibility and accountability go hand-in-hand with authority and privilege.

Rightly or wrongly, just from a 30,000-foot view it doesn't look like the VADM's fleet is measuring up to standards. Maybe his staff let him down -- and that's eminently possible, and my guess is his chief of staff and others' necks are on the chopping block as well -- but the ultimate responsibility for the efficient, effective and safe operation of his fleet was his and his alone.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I haven't seen anything that says, reliably, that VADM Aucoin is being relieved because of these incidents. He was already scheduled for to transfer, and his relief was named way back in May.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I guess we'll know if they go on with a planned change of command ceremony and all the pomp that goes with it, or if his new assignment is a desk in a windowless office in a minor building at the Yokosuka naval base.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Looks like it is an early relief. He was due to retire in the next couple of weeks, but they're pulling him early.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Ouch! It's one of the burdens and responsibilities of command, though. I certainly never commanded an organization at his level, but even down where I was, it was understood that if you didn't perform it was your career.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Will this cost him any money since he's retiring i.e. a missed promotion or something along those lines?

In the Marine Corps we called this a "Change of Command without the band."

---

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Exactly so! ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think that flag and general officers must have their current paygrades approved by Congress upon retirement, which is normally just a formality.

However, in cases such as being relieved of command, Congress may not approve a permanent 3-star rank at retirement, meaning he'd revert to his 2-star rank of Rear Admiral (Upper Half). At least, that's my understanding of things.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

He was already planning to retire. He wasn't looking at promotion anyway. The only issue would be if he's not allowed to retire as a 3-star. I believe Congress has to approve his retirement at that rank. 1 and 2 star ranks are permanent, but 3 and 4 are temporary and require confirmation.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yeah that was my question. Is the pay scale significantly different between 2 and 3?

I'd guess there's probably about 10K per year difference in after taxes retirement pay between the two ranks. So the difference between about 118K and 108K.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Added up over his expected post-retirement lifespan (25 to 40 years or longer, depending upon his age at retirement), the financial hit could be significant.

And then there's the matter of just what employment he could secure with the civilian defense contractor establishment or similar employers, given he's just been relieved for cause or close to it. Normally, general officers and flag officers such as fleet commanders can expect a lucrative offer from General Dynamics or Newport News Shipbuilding or with a big K Street lobbying firm or some premier consulting firm, mostly because of their contacts within the Department of Defense. Would be maybe be untouchable as far as they're concerned, at least for the first few years of his retirement?

Taken together, the VADM is looking at a serious hit to his wallet, potentially. That's cold comfort in the face of nearly 20 dead sailors over the summer, I know, but it's at least something for the retribution crowd to hang its cover on.

On a sidenote, I busted a few young Sailors and Marines at captain's mast (it's called "office hours" in the Marine Corps, and I mostly just read off what the sergeant major wanted me to hit them with) over the years (the standard reduction in rank, half-month's pay times two months, extra military instruction, confinement to quarters, etc.) and I felt bad about that. I can't imagine ever having to relieve a flag officer of command and don't know if I'd have ever had the strength to do it. I just get too sympathetic and 'understanding' about stuff like that. Which is why I knew when it was time to get piped over the side when I did. I didn't want to find out.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I don't really expect he's going to have much trouble finding a job. He was expected to retire on Sep 7th. My guess is that his early relief was mostly to avoid the optic of what might be seen as a fancy ostentatious change of command and retirement ceremony so quickly on the heels of this latest tragedy. You can't really, in good taste, stand up there with all the bunting, sideboys, bells, pipes, etc, and talk about what a great guy the Admiral is, and give him an award, standing in front of the Sailors and families who are feeling the pain of these incidents.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Great insights. Thanks.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Great Ars Technica article -- very detailed -- on the McCain, Fitzgerald and other Navy collisions of late. The author is a former Navy officer and has stood the bridge watch at sea.

With the USS McCain collision, even Navy tech can’t overcome human shortcomings | Ars Technica

There's also a link to the 7th Fleet statement about the Fitzgerald's collision and who's been relieved of duty to this point:

"The commanding officer, executive officer and command master chief of the guided-missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) were relieved of their duties by Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin, Commander, Seventh Fleet, on August 18. Additionally, a number of officer and enlisted watch standers were held accountable. The determinations were made following a thorough review of the facts and circumstances leading up to the June 17 collision between Fitzgerald and the merchant vessel ACX Crystal.

The collision was avoidable and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship. Within Fitzgerald, flawed watch stander teamwork and inadequate leadership contributed to the collision that claimed the lives of seven Fitzgerald Sailors, injured three more, and damaged both ships... Several junior officers were relieved of their duties due to poor seamanship and flawed teamwork as bridge and combat information center watch standers. Additional administrative actions were taken against members of both watch teams."

Seventh Fleet Announces USS Fitzgerald Accountability Determinations > Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet > Display

With McCain, there may also have been a loss of steering involved that, coupled with the possible confusion suffered by watchstanders as they transited an extremely busy Strait of Malacca, contributed to the collision with a merchant ship.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

In general, the article makes some good points. I would quibble with a couple of items. First, he makes a judgement call on which ship (McCain or the merchant) had right of way, which I just don't think we can justifiably make right now. Second, his mention of the "eat their young" mindset in the Surface community is a little outdated, and was probably accurate when he was in the Navy 20-some years ago. Of course, there are still some Commanders who lead that way, but in general, the fleet has moved much more towards an environment that accepts some level of learning by making mistakes, debriefing and discussing, and then moving forward, rather than just shooting a Sailor or Officer in the head after a single mistake. That said, some things are non-recoverable, and fault for collision accompanied by the loss of Sailors is definitely one of them.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I agree with you on both your quibbles. I think it's way too early on the McCain collision to assign that level of fault. Also, I remember when the Navy (I forget which CNO at the time) made a conscious decision -- and publicized it through ALNAVs and the Navy Times -- to end that "eat their young" mindset in the SWO community, starting at SWOS in Newport, RI and out to the Fleet and I think the service has done a good job of not wrecking a JO's career for a simple mistake, especially at the Ensign/LT(jg) levels.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

These ships literally can turn on a dime (compared to a merchant ship).

How are they are going to be somehow prepared for a combat situation when they can't even figure out Watch handover and can easily be sunk by being rammed by a commercial vessel during this time?

That's a disgrace to the Navy, the Military and the Nation.

Pompous squids...

The bodies of all 10 of the McCain's missing Sailors have been recovered:

Bodies of all 10 sailors missing on USS John S. McCain have been recovered - The Washington Post

The 10 sailors were identified as:

• Electronics Technician 1st Class Charles Nathan Findley, 31, of Amazonia, Mo.;
• Interior Communications Electrician 1st Class Abraham Lopez, 39, of El Paso;
• Electronics Technician 2nd Class Kevin Sayer Bushell, 26, of Gaithersburg, Md.;
• Electronics Technician 2nd Class Jacob Daniel Drake, 21, of Cable, Ohio;
• Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Timothy Thomas Eckels Jr., 23, of Manchester, Md.;
• Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Corey George Ingram, 28, of Poughkeepsie, N.Y.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class Dustin Louis Doyon, 26, of Suffield, Conn.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class John Henry Hoagland III, 20, of Killeen, Tex.
• Interior Communications Electrician 3rd Class Logan Stephen Palmer, 23, of Decatur, Ill.
• Electronics Technician 3rd Class, Kenneth Aaron Smith, 22, of Cherry Hill, N.J.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Wow,...so much fail in a single post. Impressive.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Rest easy shipmates.

---

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Wow! Average age around 26 so sad. We have to better, this is totally unexceptionable.
RIP fallen heroes.

It's a real tragedy. Simply horrible.

All ETs and ISs, too. I wonder if that was their berthing area that was hit or if it was their work space? Given the time of the morning, seems like it'd be their berthing area, but I'm no shipboard life expert, that's for sure.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

A respectful article on these heroes.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4830024/Bodies-ten-sailors-recovered-USS-John-S-McCain.html

Thanks for posting their stories. They gave their lives in service to their country. Very sad.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Served as an ET aboard 2 surface combatants... Working spaces on both were well upstairs (03-05 level), since that's where the radios & radars were/are located. Berthings were down near the waterline (1st/3rd levels below main deck). Only a couple exceptions would be some special equipment spaces for the spooks that were down in the bowels, but those were all centrally located within the hull and not outboard where they'd be susceptible to an exterior collision/breach.

Sometimes humor helps, even if it's dark humor.

"Navy Destroyer Collides with Building in Downtown Houston."

"It was unclear why the destroyer was not able to see the building and take evasive action, or why it was over 20 miles inland and trying to navigate through a major metropolitan area."

My non working co-worker was an IC on the USS COLE, when he saw where the damage was done he said it was the ETs, ISs, and ICs lived.

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

My poor beloved Navy. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Question, not to you specifically but in general, why are all the similar trades bunking together? Or am I missing something?

Couple of reasons, but mostly for accountability. It's easier to keep track of who is where when you berth with the people you work with. Also, the Division or Department will own maintenance and cleanliness of that berthing space, so it's easier to hold someone accountable for ensuring that stuff happens as well.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

So this is mostly for disciplinary reasons? Doesn't it seem risky to put each trade in a specific berthing area? 1 missile in wartime and 1/3rd or more of your specialized combat assets of 1 or 2 trades go poof.

Operationally, it also simplifies swapping out work/watch shifts, when you can head down to wake up your relief and the different groups of guys can cycle on/off and work/eat/sleep together. If guys w/ different duties and working in different shops were sprinkled throughout the ship in various berthings, it'd be more chaotic having somebody in your berth trying to come on/off shift all the fucking time, as not all the different jobs and shops across the ship are synced together like that. Like if your DivO wants to call a meeting, you're all easy to find and organize, rather than having to track down 1 or 2 guys in each of 12 different berthings and disturb all of their other neighbors. Especially as guys within a given shop/berth often trade shifts with each other; gets back to slowguy's point about accountability knowing where your relief is coming from.

Thanks for the clarification, my thought was that it would be easier to divide the berthings by watch. It's obvious my idea of what would be a good approach is equally or possibly even more flawed.

Watch bills change often enough that you couldn't really separate it based on watch rotation.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Typically, if we're really at war where there's significant risk of inbound missiles, there's not nearly as many people asleep in berthings. At any given time, about 1/3rd of the ship is on watch if you're operating where bad things could happen. If we're actually worried about inbound missiles, a ship has likely set General Quarters, then everyone is up on a GQ station, and nobody is asleep in berthings.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Thanks, I was having trouble getting my head wrapped around how crew assets were protected.

Realistically, with regard to wartime and combat, protecting crew berthing is not a big priority.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/11/politics/navy-ships-training-expired/index.html. Ships involved in collisions had lengthy lists of failing to fulfill key training requirements. McCain blames it on taking the low hanging fruit in budget cuts

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Not super surprising, I don't think. As Sen McCain stated, the service chiefs have been ringing this bell for years. Many here in the LR laughed off the stated potential impact from cuts/reduced growth to DoD budgets. The stuff that gets cut is always the stuff with no lobbies, no politicians, no constituent industries standing by to put up a fuss, and that means it's always stuff that impacts Soldiers and Sailors.

We'll have to see what the final reports say. Lack of ballistic missile defense or anti-air certifications didn't contribute to these incidents, but the overall training and readiness environment, paired with increased operational responsibilities, likely did.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

In my time in the naval service, starting in the 1970s with the Carter-era Navy and running through to the early 21st century due to a recall to active duty for a time, travel and training and education ALWAYS took the hit first. For training and education, you tried to make do with local trainers -- who'd been (only imperfectly) trained in "train the trainer" classes -- first. You conducted what shipboard training you could and you hoped for the best. But the Navy over the decades has become increasingly technically oriented, so that sort of training only goes so far.

I was once an instructor at the Navy's Independent Duty Corpsman School ("Advanced Hospital Corps School" or AHCS), at the Navy School of Health Sciences in Portsmouth, VA. I saw firsthand how training for our IDCs on ships at the Naval Base Norfolk took the hit. Now multiply that by all the shipboard training and education that gets the "skinny it down" treatment, and then multiply that for something like the last decade or so.

Bottom line: training shortfalls were bound to happen. And look what trying to save a penny created? SMDH.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Don't underestimate just how ridiculous military bureaucracy can be. Formal training reports are usually complete happy horseshit. Among a million other difficulties in trying to evaluate whether or not a group of folks know what they're doing, the military is obsessed by "process". So even tho your group might get the task done just fine, the fact that PVT Smith didn't have his helmet strap cinched tight and count down from 5 to 1 per the manual, could be enough to flunk your group.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Apparently, the retired Navy Captain (O6) interviewed in this piece is very unsparing as to what went on:

“What gave out was leadership. The admirals did not put their careers on the line and object about anything. They rolled over to save themselves.”


Plus: “If you put the emphasis on social issues, you get a social force. If you put it on operational issues, you get an operational force. . . . The mistakes made were all simple things: basic ship handling, navigation and seamanship stuff. Destroyers do not get run down by merchants; they are faster and much more maneuverable. No, they were not hacked; they were not run down on purpose. They just were asleep at the wheel.”


The Real Reason the US Navy Keeps Hitting Merchant Vessels - In Military

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I don't know anything about what happened in this specific event, nor do I know much about the climate aboard ships these days, or the McCain in particular. For all I know, the officers aboard the McCain might have been complete pieces of crap. That said, I'm sympathetic towards the officers and NCOs. With few exceptions, all the officers and NCOs I ever met tried pretty damned hard to do well. But they did so inside a system that tried very hard to defeat them at every turn. I spent a long time in the Marines and the Army, but the amount of really good training that I rec'd wasn't that much. I tried my ass off to put together "really good" training for my guys, but it was so goddamned hard to beat "the system" so I could do what I wanted that my successes were pretty damned rare. The military requires that the leaders do so much complete BS that it can consume their every waking hour. Year after year I worked 18hr days and I can't really say that I accomplished that much.

The military is 2nd only to the government as the biggest bureaucracy around. Bureaucracies are not good at getting anything useful done. Mostly they just suck the enthusiasm and moxie out of their members. Maybe the Navy keep running into other ships because what senior leaders want is pretty briefs re. the success of their elaborate processes, vs. hard chargers knowing what they are doing.

In my experience, In the military, the only training that is important is training that is easily rendered into a formal published standard, success easily measureable, and the results easily placed into a bullet comment. If the training and skills don't meet that criteria, then they don't matter. Try, for example, to measure a person's grasp of topographic lines, the key to genuinely being able to navigate thru terrain. Can't easily measure that, so it's long lost as a training objective. The ability to measure and report drives training.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart