Just read through the thread here and interesting the quick convo about the E elation gain confusion. I had it as well. After strava'ing I think I did ends up getting like 1900' but I was definitely confused. I'm in Breck for the night and going to ride probably just a lap of the course tomorrow as long as its not 40 degrees and raining.

Then off to stock pile pearl izumis at the outlet before they're gone forever :(

dirtymangos post is absurd. I did a tri this year with only a half mile swim at around 56 degrees and it was pretty awful. Your legs go numb no matter what, breathing gets difficult, and it's just no good.

Like I said I am a super wimp when it comes to cold water.
But I do own a wetsuit. And I would NOT plan on "taking it easy" in a cold water swim.

Escape from Alcatraz was toasty warm.
St George was toasty warm.
(After you had been swimming for a while. Yet both were supposedly in the low 50s).

I did a 5000 yd training swim in a glacial lake water where the water was around 45. (I did wear a wetsuit and a wool hat under my swim cap).

I have seen Inuits swim and play in 45 f water, for most of an hour, on a 45 degree day, with strong wind.

I think the warmest water the English Channel ever gets is 62. And that swim takes 10+ hours. And it doesn't count unless you do it without a wetsuit.

So no I am not being ridiculous.

It is ridiculous to sign up for a triathlon in September at 1100ft.
And then start pleading that they cancel the swim because it might be a little "cold".

It's not ridiculous if you're given information that says it will be 20 degrees warmer that it (theoretically) is

The 64 degree thing seems optimistic.
It might be that warm.
It might not.
The 40 degree thing seems like exaggerated hype.

My thought is this.
Plan on swimming fast. (It is a race after all. It is very hard to get cold when you are exercising vigorously). Use a wetsuit. If it is extra cold and/or you are especially sensitive to the cold - wear booties and a wetsuit cap. This is exactly the type of conditions the wetsuit is made for.

I have never been close to getting hypothermia from cold water.
Riding my bike down hill in 38 degree rain........
That accounts for at least 90% my engagements with hypothermia.

I am convinced that the unique danger with this race is cold rain and hail on the bike decents.

That's where I would get hypothermia.

I can see it now...
"Oh I don't need a jacket. It won't rain. And I will be racing hard. Anyway."
(Of course you don't race hard on the decents).

But weak swimmers are always worried about the swim.

comparing inuits, English Channel swimmers, and, apparently, yourself, to the majority of triathletes just underscores the absurdity.

I'm not really trying to attack you, it just seems clear that you're not as "wimpy" as you think. (As for myself, I use the top helix, it was not adequate to mitigate what I described. Next time I would add a thermal cap and booties, but not sure how much a difference it would make since I've never tried.)

Btw, they cancelled (or dramatically shortened) the itu long course worlds swim last year (i believe sweden) because the organizers considered it too cold, I'll be interested to look up the temp, but am sure it was in the 50s.

to answer my own question, long course worlds last year was 57.2 in the water and they shortened from 3800m to 1500m.

FWIW, USAT recommends a cancelled swim for courses over 1500m and a water temp below 53. Other variables like air temp, altitude, etc. are taken into consideration by the RD before making a final call.

I'm not also so sure about your suggestion to swim fast to warm up at an elevation of over 9000 feet. For "normal" elevations, I can agree with you, but going out hard at that altitude for most AGers with a water temp in the low 50s probably isn't the best idea. I

Alternatively, I'd try warming up on land while wearing my wettie in order to get warm before entering the water.

If I were placing bets placed on the information provided, and with the race still 3 weeks away, with days getting shorter and nights getting cooler, I would say there won't be a swim. I'd like to be wrong, however.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Inclement and rapidly changing weather is always a possibility in the mountains, but certainly less likely in the morning than the afternoon. Unless there's a system/front moving through, I think everyone should be off the bike before the typical afternoon patterns kick in.

All the same, I think I'm leaning road bike now. I've been forcing myself to ride my TT lately after shelving it ~2 years ago after my last quasi-tri retirement and I rather despise riding it. It's damn fast, but eh, I have no strong competitive drive for this race and would rather enjoy the scenery and the experience rather than stare at the ground 5 feet in front of me for a few hours. Plus if the weather does turn south, I certainly am a lot more competent descender on my road bike.

Highest swim I've ever done in a race was June lake at 7,654'. I was living at sea level then, but I was also actually training for the swim then as well and it was a real kick in the nuts. Definitely could not push the pace. I did Tahoe as well, that wasn't so bad. I now live in the Denver metro and do sporadic OWS and my pace still is affected by the altitude, but double that elevation going up to Dillon is an entirely different animal.

As for cancelling the swim, the water is still in the 60s down here in Denver but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Provided the info from the Marina was accurate, I can't see it warming up a ton but I'm still hoping for the swim as well despite the fact that it's always been my worst event and I've swam once a week for the past few months if I'm lucky.

If they do hold it and the water is in the 50's, I recommend people considering grabbing a pear of neoprene swim socks / booties, you can get a pair from amazon for less than $20. That and a neoprene cap. You can do the swim-cap-sandwich for added affect which is latex cap, neoprene, then race latex cap on the outside. Annoying because it puts a lot of pressure on your head, but keeps you from getting brain freeze.

I, personally, am impressed with your penis. Thank you for showing it to us ... now I know to not bring my wife to the race because she might then know that not only am I not a world class swimmer capable of swimming the channel but that I am not as endowed ... whew, marriage saved.

You started your attack on those you perceived as being wimpy by saying you didn't want to be a dick ... thanks, Mr Trump, that makes the subsequent idiocy of your comments okay. Glad you did that ... don't want anyone to be too offended by you waiving that impressive penis around.

I am going to hang with the Inuit ... maybe it will toughen me up so I can be like you!

Little Inuit kids enjoying a swim in the summer are super macho.
So too, are the overweight old ladies that do the channel swim.

But you don't need that level of macho. ......
Just a wetsuit. And the ability to comfortably swim 1.2 miles.

Ha, well...For the record, we wouldn't have worked this hard to get these permits over the last nine years if we thought the water would get down into the 40's. That would be an awful experience for everyone involved. I grew up in Lake Michigan and that's cold even for me.

We picked September because the lake would be at it's warmest or close to it.

We were up at the lake this weekend, with air temps in the mid 60's and the water temps at two feet deep were pretty close to the same. Whoever answered that call at the marina was most likely messing with you unfortunately.

Our best guess is that Lake Dillon will be at 62*F on race morning.

Jeff

I'll be taking the TT up for its gear selection. Just praying the roads are dry. Went up there today to check the course out. There's a couple pot holes up at the top of the decent that I think could get someone really hurt. I'm glad I'm aware of them now. The climb is going to be a bitch on the second lap.

As for the water I'm glad to hear that 44 isn't accurate. Hopefully it's calm with some sun. That's all I'll ask for. Guna be a gorgeous and painful first 70.3 for me! Bright side:: it'll make all other ones seem easy....right?

Thanks for the update!

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Really? This website confirms the current 44F water temp:

http://www.fishingnotes.com/.../co/Dillon-Reservoir

FWIW - I've used that site for scouting water temps for early season races and it has been woefully inaccurate. Maybe it has something to do with the depth of the water that they're reporting.

As a current example, it has Union Reservoir in Longmont at 42 degrees and Boulder Res at 44 degrees. It was 76 degrees out at Union less than a week ago.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Good to know!

I was in Boulder res yesterday. It definitely wasn't 44

Everyone knows you can't trust a fish with a thermometer. Duh!

Ha yes, it also says that Chatfield res is 43, which would be a surprise to me given I was swimming there last week without a wetsuit.

I live part-time up in that area. The temps are definitely NOT in the 60's in the morning, more like low 40's at this time of year. I was just there to ride the course and waiting until 9am to even get on my bike and it was still in the 40's, so I instead decided to ride up Montezuma in my car, and there was some ice on the road at the top, since it snowed on the peaks the prior evening.
I have no problem riding or running in the cold, however my concerns are getting out of cold water in wet clothing and then trying to navigate a bike ride with a numb body and no real way of being able to warm up since the air will not warm up until you're on the run. The road at the top of Montezuma is also something to be desired....there are plenty of basketball-sized pot-holes to navigate around, so let's add numb bodies, slick roads, lots of people try and pass, and oh yeah....we are all racing....yikes!
Warming tent for athletes to change into dry clothes coming out of the swim? Possibility of cutting the ride a tad short (like right by the bridge on Montezuma) to avoid the last mile and a half in the shade with crappy conditions?

Then take your time in transition and change into warm dry clothes. No one is forcing anyone to sprint out of the water, do a flying mount onto your skinny tire death trap and ride sockless in a wet, sleeveless trisuit.

I don't see this race as being one of the mass market downstream swim, flat bike 'everyone's a winner!' bullshit races that people do to one-and-done or set some new PR. I gather from the marketing that they are catering this race more to the 'extreme' triathlon crowd, it's supposed to be hard and the environmental conditions (altitude, temperature) are a deliberate part of that.

Not to say that this race really compares to Norseman, but you don't see a people there complaining about the cold swim, weather or possibly sketchy roads. That's kind of the whole point and the reason they all signed up for it in the first place, to overcome adversity. I don't know how hard this race will prove to be, but I hope people had sense enough before signing up to realize that a race at >10,000ft in the rocky mountains in September might not be all sunshine and lollipops.

edit: to clarify I'm not directing this at you personally, more the general vibe I get from this thread. Some sort of warming / changing tent in transition would be great if they could swing it, but I'll be bringing some extra towels just in case.

  I am super stoked for your passion for the extreme triathlon, and wanting to only do races that are not "fast and flat bullshit" as you so eloquently put it. However, when reading through this forum, it is obvious that there ARE people who have signed up for this race as either their first 70.3 race ever, or are from the flat lands and were looking for something that seemed challenging and different and I do not blame them, as this race was marketed in a way that made it seem like it would be a "beautiful setting" with the challenge of altitude. Not so bad, right?
My concerns do not lie with the "super human" prototypes such as yourself whom thrive on extreme conditions, more so, it lies with the people who are not prepared for these conditions and if precautions are not taken, it will end up effecting you, whether you like it to not because the course will become unsafe with people who do not know how to handle their bike. I am going to assume, that you have done races such as this, where you are completely numb on the bike, since you have the opinion that sucking it up will make everything just fine. After doing races such as Alcatraz in cold water, I can assure you that no matter how "tough" you think you are, when the elements take over your body...there is really nothing you can do, no matter how tough you think you are.
Making a reference to Norseman, frankly, makes me giggle. Nowhere in 106 West does it state that it's an EXTREME triathlon, it makes mention to the altitude, period. This race is in not marketed the way Norseman is, nor does it have the same precautions that are mandatory to their race, in which case athletes are 100% aware of what they just signed up to participate in. All pictures for 106 West are of athletes in their sleeveless triathlon suits, with beautiful weather. The mantra, "it won't be pretty, but it will be beautiful" is not exactly a descriptor to the elements that athletes are looking to encounter, nor does the description of the race course on the website. Extreme Triathlons such as Norseman require each athlete to have a support crew, for the specific reasons of monitoring the athlete and helping them when needed for reasons that have already been discussed in this forum. Nowhere in this race are athletes allowed to have support crew in our transition area, helping athletes dry off, warm them up as they are putting on ample amounts of clothing, and yet the water temperatures of these two races might end up being similar....
This race has the potential to be absolutely amazing, challenging and something I would be proud to promote to many people in future years. However, it seems to me that being the first year, there may be some things that need to be assessed a bit in order to make it successful and keep a positive vibe about it so that it is not a "one and done" deal. If you chose not to use some of the precautions that could be part of the race to enhance safety, then that is completely your perogative...and if it makes you faster and tougher, then I hope to see you on the podium and will cheer for your amazing race!

This thread has been a great reminder of why I gave up on tri years ago, people take this crap way too seriously. While amusing, your wild conjectures about my positions are misinformed to say the least.

My actual position is quite simple. Personal responsibility. If you signed up for the the "highest triathlon in the world" without thinking about what that might mean, then, well, good luck. The RD certainly has both a legal and a moral responsibility to conduct a race in a safe manner and perhaps there is more they could be doing in that regard, but that is out of my control. What is in my control, regardless of the race or venue, is to make informed and rational decisions about how I prepare for an event, how I participate in an event, and the decision to skip or cease participating in an event if I feel that my personal safety is in jeopardy... or hell, if I simply no longer feel like doing it.

How you conduct your race is up to you. Personally, if I am freezing coming out of the water, I'll probably take my time in transition and try to warm up. If I'm too cold to safely ride my bike or the conditions are well outside my comfort zone then I'll pull the plug myself. Luckily, I have swam alcatraz before, in March. I have raced a half at high altitude before (June Lake), I have swam/raced at altitude and near-freezing temperatures (Tahoe). I have a reasonable idea of my limits and a reasonable idea of how to race in these kinds of conditions. If I hadn't done any of these things, then perhaps "the worlds highest triathlon" wouldn't be the best place to start.

And with that, I'm out. Best of luck for a fun an safe race to all.