You mean WWII where about 100 million died, and of those 9 million were Jews?

If I were in the mood I would bitch-slap you into the next millenium for that cavalier observation.

I am tired, but no matter: you've pretty much proven yourself a mega- anti-semite: where do you get your coaching?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Why do you hate science and truth?

100 million dead, many of whom were soldiers. But the Jews were systematically rounded up in several countries to be snuffed out. Big difference. You're a Christian so why do you hate God's people?

The Yad Vashem holocaust memorial was the best museum I have ever had the pleasure of spending time in, it was really well done.

As much as I am far from a blind follower of Israel (some of the atrocities their soldiers committed were shameful to say the least) I can certainly sympathize with their situation in Israel. I tend to allocate the blame for the problems pretty evenly but do admit that if the Palestinians really want peace, then stop throwing bombs at Israel.

However, as in most conflicts a few keep the fighting going (cough *Assad in Syria* cough) so I tend to point the finger at outside influences and not the people. I think too many are quick to just say the problem is with Palestine and in reality it is interference from the powers in Syria and Iran.

AND, it was all predicted thousands of years prior to '48, which is proof God fights for them.

I'd like to offer an intelligent rebuttal of YaHey's argument here, but you're making it very hard. ;)

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Fuck me, I hadn't opened this thread and was just going to skip it. But it has some of the best unintentional humor that has been in the LR for quite some time.

If I didn't know these guys were serious I would be certain they were just yanking chains.

While it's amusing, I also think Guru has (unintentionally) handed YaHey a gift, by deflecting the discussion away from the latter's ugly antisemitism.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Why? Look at the prophecies, which are numerous, and the historical outcome. If anything, this is an affront to his anti-semitism! Yahey can't get around historical truth. You may not like the source but it's something you must acknowledge. I'd like to know why this is not an intelligent part of the debate, especially since truth (history) and archaeology (science) are involved?

Nu-uh, I'm not letting him off the hook until he admits he advocated genocide or ethnic cleansing!

Oh, I agree. There are always atrocities in every nation. We're fallen humans. I had a tri buddy here who used to interrogate Syrians. He actually felt sorry for Arabs in general: "We buy their oil but give them little respect." On the flip side, he liked raising his kids here while pursuing advanced degrees because, "they are less likely to be blown up on the school bus."

You realize that another 9-10 million non-jews died in German concentration camps, don't you? and that the remaining 100 million were mostly non-military, including many chinese, russians (20+ million), etc.. The holocaust for the jews did happen, but compared to what happened to other peoples in other countries during WWII, it was not the greatest autrocity of the war - no matter how much propraganda you've swallowed (and you've appear to have swallowed a lot). But continue to believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.

But irregardless of the holocaust, it does not mean the jews were given some special right to take over land and create a nation where one did not exist and to make the inhabitants of that land foreigners in their own land. If you don't think that is what has happened, then you have no clue as to the history of the creation of Israel.

But the jews have paid a terrible price for the land in Israel. They have lost many lives, they have almost no security, live in fear of terrorism, can't travel east, north or south from the borders, and are completely dependent on the propraganda machine to keep sending them money to survive as a nation. They continue to bring in refugees from other countries (mostly Russia now), they are split amongst their views (ultra to multiple sects), and the only bond they have is military service. They must sit around asking themselves why God has chosen them as his people, and not someone else.

Another inane post. Yes, plenty of people died in the war but Jews died because they were targeted specifically as a people.

The Jews are better off without a homeland or in a homeland with bloodshed? It's ALWAYS better to be in your homeland and choke on your own blood fighting for it than to be scattered all over the earth! That's the way real men (and women) think. (My training buddy from Israel lost his dad in Yom Kippur war when he was 3). Churchill knew as much during the Battle of Britain. And no, they didn't earn a "special right" to their original land due to the holocaust. Israel sucked and was a barren wasteland before they came back! They've made it tons better since, no thanks to the Palestinians who have no claim.

Most importantly, you advocated genocide with your "drive them into the ocean" comment and you, a supposed Christian, have ignored Bible prophecy. So, you don't care about God's blessing on them? You don't care about God's word as a Christian? You think it's okay to run a group of people into the ocean?

Are you advocating genonice and ethnic cleasing in Russia, China, Armenia, Greece, the Balkans, north Africa, El Salvador, Guatemala, Rwanda, Turkey and more? The list is endless. Why are you not creating a holocaust museum and nation for these other peoples? Why do you only care about one? If you are so caring, why don't you care about the palestinians?

I am not letting you off the hook until you admit that a lot of other peoples have been targeted for ethnic cleansing and genocide, and that the jews are but one in a long history of human atrocities. It doesn't make me anti-semetic just because I don't care about the jews as much as I don't care about the armenian genocide. Anti-semetism is a term used against anyone who is against US support for Israel, and you've bought that propraganda hook and sinker, and you call yourself a Christian. You need to go to Bible study or something.

I am also not letting you off the hook until you admit that the Palestinians have been wronged by the jews. Until then, you and I can't have a serious discussion on the issue as no intelligent basis will exist.

See, here's the problem. You won't even say, "...until you admit that the Palestinians (and I won't even call them "the local Arabs that go by the name of "Palestinian") have been wrongrf by the ISRAELIS." You delegitimize the State of Israel when you do that, and that's probably deliberate on your part.

All of us have told you before that there's absolutely NO CHANCE, EVER, that there'll be real peace in the Middle East as long as the Arabs refuse to recognize the right of the state of ISRAEL to exist and that it's a JEWISH state. And even if they did that, I've got enough experience with Arab double-dealing to tell you that they'll renege on that as soon as they think they have the upper hand over Israel. Then you'll get to see a real piece of genocide in your own lifetime.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Why? Look at the prophecies, which are numerous, and the historical outcome. If anything, this is an affront to his anti-semitism! Yahey can't get around historical truth. You may not like the source but it's something you must acknowledge. I'd like to know why this is not an intelligent part of the debate, especially since truth (history) and archaeology (science) are involved?

For pretty much the same reasons that the predictions of Nostradamus (whom someone else mentioned above) aren't taken seriously by intelligent scholars.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Your approach which attempts to assess blame typifies the discourse that only serves to prolong the strife.

You should instead consider the historical context of which you speak. What nation on earth today was conceived without dispute? Israel at 64 years of age is just a modern day example of a nation born out of contention. The history relating to the struggle is most often reviewed subjectively. Israelis and Palestinians are taught contradicting stories relating to the origins of their conflict. Armed with different versions of the "truth" how is it possible to find common ground? Under these conditions to demand that one side admit to being responsible is to promote a futile and endless struggle.

At this point the past has become blurred and both sides need to recognize that if a lasting peace is ever to be achieved, the starting point has to be based on the political realities that exist on the ground today.

Good FSM, watching guru and yahey argue just sucks any faith you had in humanity right out of you.

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****************

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

I lived there once (Jerusalem, HaGiv'a HaTzarfatit), between college and grad school. It was a great place to be! Would love to go back for a visit some day soon. :-)

Happy Birthday Israel!

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~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

Dude, I'm a veteran from Rwanda/Burundi, Somalia, Bosnia, and Kuwait/Iraq! I also did an Int'l Red Cross hostage rescue mission in Khartoum with then US Ambassador to the UN, Gov. Richardson of N.M. who became Energy Secretary. That's not the point that there are displaced people and genocide. I freely acknowledge that and have seen it up close and personal.

My problem with you is the "push them into the ocean" comment which is genocide. You advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Have you looked at them and seen the numbers and accuracy of even small details? I was a Christian for years before I delved into the OT. When I did, I was shocked. Isaiah mentions Cyrus by name 150 years prior and even tells of the destruction of the Temple and captivity by a then small and unknown people. They laughed at Isaiah pretty hard until it happened. Then, there's Daniel and his prophecies. We're not talking about Nostradamus here. We're talking about several Nostradamuses! You don't take it seriously out of bias against?

Not to mention, there is a huge mosque (Dome of the Rock, 900 AD?) sitting on the Temple mound, which is an intentional "f u" to the Jews. It still stands and the Jews could've knocked it down anytime. The Jews are tolerant of Christians and Muslims. The Muslims? Well, they established a mosque on holy grounds, which is nothing more than laying claim to ground in an ancient family squabble!

No offense, but the mosques are a part of the present reality on the ground as well and need to be respected.

And religious orthodoxies are a big part of the problem because they don't accommodate the compromises required to negotiate effectively.

What year was it 64 years ago? Your post doesn't list it.

They are being respected, that's his point. Something that bears repeating is that for Muslims, any land that they're ever ruled, is rightfully theirs. An early diatribe by OBL included a point about remembering Andalusia, that part of Spain where Muslims, at their height, took over rule from Christians. Well during the crusades (also called the "reconquest") Christians came back in and kicked Muslim ass, but in the minds of OBL and most Muslims, that is rightfully Muslim land. So it is with Israel; though the israelites were there thousands of years ago, it has since been ruled by some Muslim potentate, and is therefore eternally Muslim ground.

To be historically accurate, muslims have ruled the land of Israel for a LOT longer that jews have. In fact, jews had never ruled Israel. Their only claim to it is because it is the land given to them by God, but beyond that, there is little to no historical basis for their claim that the land has ever truly belonged to them.

Get out my thread please,...I started this to say Happy Birthday to Israel, not to hear your wacked out anti-Jew worldview repeated for the nth time.