Happy Birthday!!!!

Ill have to keep an eye on this for incoming rounds that will be released by Anti-Israel/Jew crowd.

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Mazel (mazal) tov and l'chaim and all those other cool Hebrew/Yiddish words! I remember being a young teenager and how all the big newspapers, including my hometown Detroit News, had multipage layouts and special commemorative editions and whatnot on that country's 25th birthday. All the news shows on the big three networks also had specials and everything else. Nowadays? Meh...not so much.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Ill have to keep an eye on this for incoming rounds that will be released by Anti-Israel/Jew crowd.

You mean Yaheeey?

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I miss YaHey

Happy Birthday to Palestine too.

Happy Birthday to Palestine too.

Let's throw some rocks to celebrate....

Just sad.

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

They'll bulldoze a few homes in occupied territories today to celebrate the illegal creation of a nation only approved by the US and Britain.


The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War.[2] The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 170 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[3] At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.[

i always wondered why there has never been a Palestinian olympic javelin thrower...i mean the pool of talent there is immense!

Let's correct the history.

33 nations voted in favor of the resolution that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel.

13 voted against incuding: Afghanistan; Iraq; Iran; Saudi Arabia; Syria; Yemen; Lebanon; Egypt; and Cuba.

The USS Liberty was an isolated incident and certainly doesn't represent the historical relationship between the USA and Israel. It would be difficult to name any nation that we have not had isolated confrontations with at some point in time.

Let's correct the history.

33 nations voted in favor of the resolution that led to the creation of the modern state of Israel.

13 voted against incuding: Afghanistan; Iraq; Iran; Saudi Arabia; Syria; Yemen; Lebanon; Egypt; and Cuba.

The USS Liberty was an isolated incident and certainly doesn't represent the historical relationship between the USA and Israel. It would be difficult to name any nation that we have not had isolated confrontations with at some point in time.


and the tribe has spoken.....

The 13 most impacted and important nations voted against the creation of Israel.

Cuba was one of the 13 most impacted/important nations?

Cuba?

Cuba was a real country before the 1960's. Just ask any Cuban.

I realize that point. I just want to know how Cuba was one of the 13 most impacted nations due to the creation of Israel.

You can't reason with him, nor can anyone else, let it go!

First of all, you said Israel was created on the approval of only 2 nations (USA & UK) when in fact it was 33.

By the way, the UK did not vote for the UN plan, it abstained.

Now you are claiming that the 13 nations that voted against the resolution were the most important.

REALLY?

These were the most important nations in 1947?

Afghanistan, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, and Cuba.

If you don't like Israel that's fine, its not a utopian society above criticism, but get your facts straight.

I'd really like to know how they were really impacted by the Jews taking over a piece of sand?

Replace Jews by Americans, they by Mexicans, and piece of sand now refers to Texas ;-)

Not just rocks, but dirt rocks. I seen it done, bro. Right at a Merkava tank. The Israelis fell over in laughter. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Cuba's important? In what universe, the cigar one?

As to the other ones, most of 'em better hope their oil don't run out anytime soon because they're in deep shee-ite when it does.

Truthfully, they fight about as well as they do most anything else. I.E. not very well at all. Oil's gone, they're gone. Pure and simple.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Two words for you, mon ami: "Manifest Destiny."

We're entitled. You savvy? ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

A few homes get bulldozed while Hamas and others plot against us and Israel, firing rockets indiscriminately into schools and neighborhoods. Remember, they owned this territory (and more) before US and Britain were even established.

Israel is the homeland of the Jews going back thousands of years. That's why we call it "Israel". They had the land, always kept a remnant in Jerusalem, and eventually were able to re-establish the nation. Name another group of folks who has done so? You can't. AND, it was all predicted thousands of years prior to '48, which is proof God fights for them. More proof? None of the nations around them can push them into the ocean, despite attempts in '67, '70, and '73. But Yahey doesn't care what God says or predicts.

So on top of being a total idiot you also have zero sense of humor. Man! Tough life. Glad you have god helping you out.

Only the jews have lived on the land called Israel. odd that even in the old testament the jews were one of many living on that land, and they were pretty much a bunch of gypsies wondering the desert.

Wait a minute . . . . . you have proof God fights for Israel?

What role do you believe a formidable, disciplined military force plays in keeping Israel from being pushed into the sea?

Israel prevailing in 1967 and 1973 can be attributed to military prowess above all IMO.

Not sure what you are referring to in 1970.

I've visited Israel and the MidEast numerous times. It's not a laughing matter! They are playing for keeps over there and Yahey is flippantly calling for genocide. I'm very surprised he has been allowed to do this on LR repeatedly.

Wrong. It's all predicted in the OT and you can't ignore it! The Soviets get involved in '70 and are repulsed. Look up "Rimon 20". Soviets have more numbers and more talent than Israel but can't prevail, losing 5 jets against no losses for Israel.

Your knowledge of history is pretty laughable. As someone else pointed out, an anti-Semite is just ideologically immune to truth. When do you start denying the Holocaust?

The Soviet airmen involved were no match for the best Israeli pilots who were hand picked for that particular mission.

Look, if you want to believe that God is responsible for Israel's military victories, that's fine with me (and most Israelis), but it can't hurt for them to maintain their top-notch military preparedness.

Agreed, but you can't ignore the prophecies from thousands of years prior.

I am afraid I have to agree that superior military capabilities tends to play a greater role than divine intervention in armed conflict. This conversation reminds me of the stories about the CIA arming the mujihadeen to fight the Soviets in the 1980's. The mujihadeen apparently believed it was God guiding those Stinger missiles up the tailpipes of the Soviet air force and not, say, a heat-seeking guidance system.

Actually, I can ignore the prophecies as they directly relate to the history of modern day Israel. That's my choice.

And you can attribute all that has occurred directly to those same Biblical predictions, if you so desire. That's your choice.

Yes, they are well-trained and very alert. However, you can't ignore the prophecies, in the 100s, and you can't ignore their size vs those around them. You can't ignore that they are THE only group of folks who have been dispersed but come back after almost 2000 years to take their country over again, despite the efforts of the 3rd Reich, their neighbors, and the Communists. The last tidbit was predicted in the OT and you can't ignore it:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

http://www.100prophecies.org/page5.htm

Happy Birthday Israel!!

And those 13 are also the biggest civil rights violators in the UN. Guess you are in good company, Yahey.

Why do you hate science?

Oh the incredible irony...

You lost me.

No hate involved, but . . . . Prophecies = Science?

Wait that you get the whole discussion about all the Science being in the Bible, and the Bible being scientifically proven...

History and archaeology are sciences and you can't ignore these fulfilled prophecies from ancient times. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove it. You can bury your head in the sand but you will be like the Holocaust deniers.

OK . . . . Happy Birthday to Israel!

Oh my. This is sad. Next you'll be talking about Nostradamus.

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****************

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

The Holocaust? You mean WWII where about 100 million died, and of those 9 million were Jews?

Fuck me, I hadn't opened this thread and was just going to skip it. But it has some of the best unintentional humor that has been in the LR for quite some time.

If I didn't know these guys were serious I would be certain they were just yanking chains.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Happy Birthday to Palestine too.

Let's throw some rocks to celebrate....

but jokes aside boys..are we gonna throw these f'in rocks or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk

Sorry to rain on your celebration, but Palestine is not a country, at least not for now (unless you learn geography from Hamas).

Don't worry, I know the region pretty well to be honest.

I like how everyone bends over backwards to avoid saying anything remotely positive about Palestine. And some people think there might be peace there some day...

Some of us are always looking for something positive to come out of the area! It's just amazing that the "peace loving" majority of the Arabs will not air thier opinions for fear of being killed by their leaders.

Here, this article has something nice to say:

http://www.ynetnews.com/...40,L-4220976,00.html


Peace will happen when there is a real partner for the Israelis to negotiate with...in the mid 90's the Israeli's were ecstatic and the air was abuzz with the prospect of peace. They were even forecasting an economic boom in Israel as a "peace dividend".Hateful extremists ruined the last real chance at peace and it cost the Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin his life.

You mean WWII where about 100 million died, and of those 9 million were Jews?

If I were in the mood I would bitch-slap you into the next millenium for that cavalier observation.

I am tired, but no matter: you've pretty much proven yourself a mega- anti-semite: where do you get your coaching?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Why do you hate science and truth?

100 million dead, many of whom were soldiers. But the Jews were systematically rounded up in several countries to be snuffed out. Big difference. You're a Christian so why do you hate God's people?

The Yad Vashem holocaust memorial was the best museum I have ever had the pleasure of spending time in, it was really well done.

As much as I am far from a blind follower of Israel (some of the atrocities their soldiers committed were shameful to say the least) I can certainly sympathize with their situation in Israel. I tend to allocate the blame for the problems pretty evenly but do admit that if the Palestinians really want peace, then stop throwing bombs at Israel.

However, as in most conflicts a few keep the fighting going (cough *Assad in Syria* cough) so I tend to point the finger at outside influences and not the people. I think too many are quick to just say the problem is with Palestine and in reality it is interference from the powers in Syria and Iran.

AND, it was all predicted thousands of years prior to '48, which is proof God fights for them.

I'd like to offer an intelligent rebuttal of YaHey's argument here, but you're making it very hard. ;)

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Fuck me, I hadn't opened this thread and was just going to skip it. But it has some of the best unintentional humor that has been in the LR for quite some time.

If I didn't know these guys were serious I would be certain they were just yanking chains.

While it's amusing, I also think Guru has (unintentionally) handed YaHey a gift, by deflecting the discussion away from the latter's ugly antisemitism.

---

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Why? Look at the prophecies, which are numerous, and the historical outcome. If anything, this is an affront to his anti-semitism! Yahey can't get around historical truth. You may not like the source but it's something you must acknowledge. I'd like to know why this is not an intelligent part of the debate, especially since truth (history) and archaeology (science) are involved?

Nu-uh, I'm not letting him off the hook until he admits he advocated genocide or ethnic cleansing!

Oh, I agree. There are always atrocities in every nation. We're fallen humans. I had a tri buddy here who used to interrogate Syrians. He actually felt sorry for Arabs in general: "We buy their oil but give them little respect." On the flip side, he liked raising his kids here while pursuing advanced degrees because, "they are less likely to be blown up on the school bus."

You realize that another 9-10 million non-jews died in German concentration camps, don't you? and that the remaining 100 million were mostly non-military, including many chinese, russians (20+ million), etc.. The holocaust for the jews did happen, but compared to what happened to other peoples in other countries during WWII, it was not the greatest autrocity of the war - no matter how much propraganda you've swallowed (and you've appear to have swallowed a lot). But continue to believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.

But irregardless of the holocaust, it does not mean the jews were given some special right to take over land and create a nation where one did not exist and to make the inhabitants of that land foreigners in their own land. If you don't think that is what has happened, then you have no clue as to the history of the creation of Israel.

But the jews have paid a terrible price for the land in Israel. They have lost many lives, they have almost no security, live in fear of terrorism, can't travel east, north or south from the borders, and are completely dependent on the propraganda machine to keep sending them money to survive as a nation. They continue to bring in refugees from other countries (mostly Russia now), they are split amongst their views (ultra to multiple sects), and the only bond they have is military service. They must sit around asking themselves why God has chosen them as his people, and not someone else.

Another inane post. Yes, plenty of people died in the war but Jews died because they were targeted specifically as a people.

The Jews are better off without a homeland or in a homeland with bloodshed? It's ALWAYS better to be in your homeland and choke on your own blood fighting for it than to be scattered all over the earth! That's the way real men (and women) think. (My training buddy from Israel lost his dad in Yom Kippur war when he was 3). Churchill knew as much during the Battle of Britain. And no, they didn't earn a "special right" to their original land due to the holocaust. Israel sucked and was a barren wasteland before they came back! They've made it tons better since, no thanks to the Palestinians who have no claim.

Most importantly, you advocated genocide with your "drive them into the ocean" comment and you, a supposed Christian, have ignored Bible prophecy. So, you don't care about God's blessing on them? You don't care about God's word as a Christian? You think it's okay to run a group of people into the ocean?

Are you advocating genonice and ethnic cleasing in Russia, China, Armenia, Greece, the Balkans, north Africa, El Salvador, Guatemala, Rwanda, Turkey and more? The list is endless. Why are you not creating a holocaust museum and nation for these other peoples? Why do you only care about one? If you are so caring, why don't you care about the palestinians?

I am not letting you off the hook until you admit that a lot of other peoples have been targeted for ethnic cleansing and genocide, and that the jews are but one in a long history of human atrocities. It doesn't make me anti-semetic just because I don't care about the jews as much as I don't care about the armenian genocide. Anti-semetism is a term used against anyone who is against US support for Israel, and you've bought that propraganda hook and sinker, and you call yourself a Christian. You need to go to Bible study or something.

I am also not letting you off the hook until you admit that the Palestinians have been wronged by the jews. Until then, you and I can't have a serious discussion on the issue as no intelligent basis will exist.

See, here's the problem. You won't even say, "...until you admit that the Palestinians (and I won't even call them "the local Arabs that go by the name of "Palestinian") have been wrongrf by the ISRAELIS." You delegitimize the State of Israel when you do that, and that's probably deliberate on your part.

All of us have told you before that there's absolutely NO CHANCE, EVER, that there'll be real peace in the Middle East as long as the Arabs refuse to recognize the right of the state of ISRAEL to exist and that it's a JEWISH state. And even if they did that, I've got enough experience with Arab double-dealing to tell you that they'll renege on that as soon as they think they have the upper hand over Israel. Then you'll get to see a real piece of genocide in your own lifetime.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Why? Look at the prophecies, which are numerous, and the historical outcome. If anything, this is an affront to his anti-semitism! Yahey can't get around historical truth. You may not like the source but it's something you must acknowledge. I'd like to know why this is not an intelligent part of the debate, especially since truth (history) and archaeology (science) are involved?

For pretty much the same reasons that the predictions of Nostradamus (whom someone else mentioned above) aren't taken seriously by intelligent scholars.

---

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Your approach which attempts to assess blame typifies the discourse that only serves to prolong the strife.

You should instead consider the historical context of which you speak. What nation on earth today was conceived without dispute? Israel at 64 years of age is just a modern day example of a nation born out of contention. The history relating to the struggle is most often reviewed subjectively. Israelis and Palestinians are taught contradicting stories relating to the origins of their conflict. Armed with different versions of the "truth" how is it possible to find common ground? Under these conditions to demand that one side admit to being responsible is to promote a futile and endless struggle.

At this point the past has become blurred and both sides need to recognize that if a lasting peace is ever to be achieved, the starting point has to be based on the political realities that exist on the ground today.

Good FSM, watching guru and yahey argue just sucks any faith you had in humanity right out of you.

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****************

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

I lived there once (Jerusalem, HaGiv'a HaTzarfatit), between college and grad school. It was a great place to be! Would love to go back for a visit some day soon. :-)

Happy Birthday Israel!

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~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

Dude, I'm a veteran from Rwanda/Burundi, Somalia, Bosnia, and Kuwait/Iraq! I also did an Int'l Red Cross hostage rescue mission in Khartoum with then US Ambassador to the UN, Gov. Richardson of N.M. who became Energy Secretary. That's not the point that there are displaced people and genocide. I freely acknowledge that and have seen it up close and personal.

My problem with you is the "push them into the ocean" comment which is genocide. You advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Have you looked at them and seen the numbers and accuracy of even small details? I was a Christian for years before I delved into the OT. When I did, I was shocked. Isaiah mentions Cyrus by name 150 years prior and even tells of the destruction of the Temple and captivity by a then small and unknown people. They laughed at Isaiah pretty hard until it happened. Then, there's Daniel and his prophecies. We're not talking about Nostradamus here. We're talking about several Nostradamuses! You don't take it seriously out of bias against?

Not to mention, there is a huge mosque (Dome of the Rock, 900 AD?) sitting on the Temple mound, which is an intentional "f u" to the Jews. It still stands and the Jews could've knocked it down anytime. The Jews are tolerant of Christians and Muslims. The Muslims? Well, they established a mosque on holy grounds, which is nothing more than laying claim to ground in an ancient family squabble!

No offense, but the mosques are a part of the present reality on the ground as well and need to be respected.

And religious orthodoxies are a big part of the problem because they don't accommodate the compromises required to negotiate effectively.

What year was it 64 years ago? Your post doesn't list it.

They are being respected, that's his point. Something that bears repeating is that for Muslims, any land that they're ever ruled, is rightfully theirs. An early diatribe by OBL included a point about remembering Andalusia, that part of Spain where Muslims, at their height, took over rule from Christians. Well during the crusades (also called the "reconquest") Christians came back in and kicked Muslim ass, but in the minds of OBL and most Muslims, that is rightfully Muslim land. So it is with Israel; though the israelites were there thousands of years ago, it has since been ruled by some Muslim potentate, and is therefore eternally Muslim ground.

To be historically accurate, muslims have ruled the land of Israel for a LOT longer that jews have. In fact, jews had never ruled Israel. Their only claim to it is because it is the land given to them by God, but beyond that, there is little to no historical basis for their claim that the land has ever truly belonged to them.

Get out my thread please,...I started this to say Happy Birthday to Israel, not to hear your wacked out anti-Jew worldview repeated for the nth time.

I hope they put some balloons on the apartheid West Bank wall (I know the people that stand in line 2 hours each way a day to get to work or getting home are blowing horns today).

Huh?

Someone hasn't read their OT and is completely ignorant of history!!

read the history of the land starting at when it was part of the Ottoman Empire, and then work your way back. Tell me which religion or group of people ruled that land.

It is not accurate to say that for Muslims any land that they ever ruled is rightfully theirs. This may be the perspective of radicals like OBL, but that doesn't make it policy for all Muslims. The Ottoman Empire was sustained by Islam, but I don't believe that modern day Turkey is laying any claim to Israel although they controlled the area for 600 years until the end of WWI.

The radicals on both sides need to be marginalized. A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma.

And the reason you put this politicly charged comment here is?

Visit the LR often?

Politically charged? Happy Independence Day is only political if you happen to ascribe to the monkey theses of the United Nations!

Well there's already plenty of other Muslim factions working on Israel's overthrow, so Turkey has little need. The country has also hewn toward a secularism that is rare in the ME for quite some time, but that has been curtailed, and they are going more hardline Islamic over the last few years. Here's an article from today that mentions same: http://articles.boston.com/...y-turkish-parliament

At any rate, you keep saying that "A compromise needs to reached based on today's political realities, not religious dogma", or similar, and that's an attractive sentiment, but reality is that every time Israel cedes an inch of new territory, the missiles and bombers just move that much closer. It takes two willing sides to make a peace.

I've stayed out of this because although I strongly believe that it takes two to tango, that by saying so I'll be accused of being anti-Israeli by some of the ST pro Israel zealots by even insinuating that Palistinians are human beings also.

IMHO, the tragedy of Israel is that after 64 yrs the country is no closer to reconcilation with its Arab neighbors than it was in 1948. Just think of where the country and entire area could be now if all the effort was spent in building something rather than fighting each other. How many thousands of innocent people have died in these 64 yrs?

The basis of the problem was the original unwillingness of the Arabs to embrace what the early Jewish settlers brought to the area in terms of Euro culture/education but instead elected to "push them into the sea" rather than accept them as neighbors and exchange with them. On the otherhand Israel was a nation bathed in blood from the start beginning with the guerilla war against the Brits (who never wanted to be there) to the brutality against the Arabs in the first wars when the official policy became to push the Palistinans off their lands. 64 yrs on and what has changed? Its still and eye for an eye mentality.

Let's hope that in 64 yrs from now Israel and its neighbors can accomplish something that they have failed to do in the first 64 yrs.

History has shown that even maintaining vast territories as a buffer zone is no guarantee of added security. Israel's control of the Sinai and Golan did nothing to provide protection in 1973.

You are correct to point out that it takes two willing sides to make peace. Hence the emphasis on compromises based on current realities (recognized by both sides) rather than adherence to immovable positions based on conflicting religious beliefs.

Cerveloguy is spot on with his observations. Both sides would be best served by doing whatever is necessary to end the current cycle of violence and live in peace. Its an amazing place full of wonders, but it is denied its full breadth of beauty by the constant threat of imminent war.

I hope to God you never reproduce and if you have then I feel great sorrow for the women that would allow such a piece of shit to violate her and for the spawn that would come from you.

You are far enough away from reality that what you write is only a weird interpetation of what you have read somewhere else.

If I had the time, I would write about my families escape from the Nazis, hiding jews in cellars away from Nazis. fighting on the Russian front and the final walk-through of The Führerbunker

Your cavalier attitude towards Jews is too Cavalier

And when they say "never again" they really do mean it.

Back to your history books Yahey.......to explain the last good deed or great innovation Islam has shared with humanity......

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Just an interesting perspective to add taken from haaretz.com ( an Israeli news source.)

For states 64 years is actually a very young age. At 64 the U.S. still had slavery in the South, and the Civil War that created the final structure of the federation was still to come. Germany at 64 was still to go through the darkest age of its history, as was Italy. States take a long time to evolve into mature democracies, to develop a culture of bridging between ethnic and religious differences and to de-dramatize politics into what it should be: the craft of managing a country’s conflicting needs, wishes and aspirations pragmatically. From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S. - and by that standard Israel has been doing phenomenally well. Most of the basic institutions of its democracy are quite stable; its economy has been doing remarkably well in these last years of a world economic crisis and Israel continues to be one of the world’s powerhouses of technological development.

As for making peace without partners, here is another approach deserving of consideration.
http://www.nytimes.com/...t-partners.html?_r=2

"From such a historical perspective Israel needs to be compared to states like India, Pakistan and Ghana rather than to today’s Britain or U.S"

I would totally disagree with that. The author is basing his opinion on years on the human time line only. The reality is the original Israeli settlers after WWII were displaced Euro refugees who were for the most part highly educated and cultured people, often at the top of the societies from where they came from so had a huge jumpstart and didn't need thousands of years to get Israel where it is. Not a legitimate comparison IMHO. Unfortunately, 64 yrs of conflict has tended to hold them back somewhat.

Sounds like you can see where progress might be effectively the same as those countries, given the larger hurdles that they suffer along with the advantages. Also funny to see it as a 64 yr struggle, when it has been a few millennia. ;)

The OP is a shit disturber who just wants to see his post on the top of the list and many, many replies and views and people arguing for and against Israel.. "Happy 64th"?? C'mon, if you would have said 65th or 50th or 70th...OK, but 64th? Did you post "happy 63rd" last year? And "happy 62nd" before that? Gimmie a break...And why "happy 64th Israel"? Can I post "Happy b-day Germany"? Or Iraq or Saudi Arabia...?
What a dumb post...

The authors are Israelis who are just making the point that Israel's political, social and economic development should be compared to a nation like India's rather than measuring it on US standards because it has only had statehood for 64 years (similar to India since independence from GB.) The US had to deal with many issues of its own and it took more than 60 years of statehood to resolve them. Cultural and educational factors are an advantage in many respects and Israel's economic development has been impressive, but they are often judged solely by their inability to resolve the Palestinian issue. I think they are saying that Israel is just going through painful exercises similar to those experienced by the US in 1850, 64 years into its own experiment in democracy. Give it time.

"Give it time."

I agree and I'm hopeful, but let's just hope more progress will be made in the next 64 yrs than has been made the first 64 yrs.

I think he's Jewish and maybe even Israeli or somebody with close connections to that country. I've been over there a few times and the attitude among many is that each year that they haven't been wiped slick from the face of the planet by any one of their dozens of enemies is a year worth celebrating, that's all.

And there might be some of what you're saying going on, too, of course. ;-) Israel's always a good topic that draws a huge number of views and comments.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

"I think he's Jewish "

Ya think. :-)

So is my cousin's husband. Get him really drunk and in a bad mood and watch him start screaming about "his people" in Israel despite the fact he's only been there once on a two week visit. His real people are secular from Toronto for several generations and celebrate their Jewishness about once a year. But every now and then he does the "everybody hates me because I'm a Jew" gig, fortunately not very often. Super guy though.... Just needs a reality slap from my cousin once in awhile. :-)

Surrounded by enemies who want you dead and gone and yet still alive and kicking. Thats plenty of reason to celebrate any number.

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Dumb post?

Take a good look at all the titles posted for discussion in LR.
No one is obligated to read what doesn't interest them and there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on subject matter. If you want to start a thread on Saudi Arabia's 80th birthday this year, have a go at it, but don't attempt to censor others.

Heh. They're all at least honorary members of the The Tribe. Can't say that I blame them for at least trying to give the appearance of sticking together, though. You'd be surprised at the level of casual, if not outright over and hostile, anti-Semitism you see these days, even in polite circles. Once, when I was with my airline, I was meeting with a couple dozen of my rampers (the rank-and-file folks that load and unload the planes and such), and somehow the subject came up about plane travel to the Middle East and Israel, and several of those folks made comments about "the Jews" and how "they" run everything, and a couple even had a DVD that they popped into the ready room's player (the ready room is where they work out of throughout their shift, with 8 to 14 of them stationed in each ready room) that explained all about the "world Jewish power cabal" and all that other sort of nonsense.

Now, all these folks were African American, which is where -- around here in Detroit -- I've found a great deal of such anti-Semitic opinion, to be honest, but they really didn't see anything wrong or unacceptable about such things, and that they felt comfortable in making such remarks to me is kind of an indication of the mainstreaming, if that's the word to use, of such casual or so-called "benign" anti-Semitism. It's "them Jooos" all over again, as the Detroit Tigers' Delmon Young demonstrated when he was arrested in New York City a few days ago, and the thing that reminds folks holding such views the most about "them Jooos" is Israel.

I think it's perfectly fine to be critical of Israel's policies, of course. But folks have got to learn to separate Israeli policies from the fact that the people executing those policies are Jewish, and that Jews don't really control the world. If that was the case, as I patiently explained to my rampers as I confiscated their DVD, then they're doing a pretty poor job of protecting their fellow world-controlling members of the world Jewish power cabal.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

How come any discussion about political views on the State of Israel makes a person anti-semitic?

It doesn't, except when people start saying things like "I hope the Arabs run "them" into the sea," bubalah. Saying stuff like that leaves the distinct impression that one is blaming the dirty Jews for the world's ills yet again. Soon enough, you got pogroms and Kristallnacht starting up all over again.

Criticizing Israel is cool with me, and like every other country it's often deserving of the criticism it gets, but what we also often get is criticism of Jewry itself, just thinly masked by anti-Israel commentary and with no recognition, as others here on both sides of the aisle have pointed out, of the equal culpability of Arabs and Palestinians in this whole mess.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Let's start by acknowledging equal culpability between the Jews and the Arabs. I would never call it equal, but if we start there we have a basis.

When Joshua led the Jews into the promised land, there were other inhabitants on that land. The Jews may believe that the land was promised to them by God, but God somewhere made a mistake and promised it to other people's too. Besides, in the 700 AD, that land was captured by the Assyrians, and it has not been the land of the tribes since - about 2,700 years ago.

I am not censoring others, only moderator can do that. I am expressing my thoughts on the topick. You don't like it, don't read it :)

Those other inhabitants weren't Arab or, at least, modern day Arabs occupying the Middle East mostly don't originate from those people against whom the Israelites contended. Again, the word "Palestine" originates from a Philistine word (one of the peoples against whom the Israelites fought, and who aren't ancestors of today's Arabs) for, basically, "over there by the sea," which was used to describe the land that you think of as Palestine.

So, then: As to your historical view of the territorial claims of the Jews, you'd agree that they have rights similar to primogeniture because they were there well before modern Arabs (who were almost exclusively nomadic peoples for much of the history of that region and almost never thought in terms of territorial claims or ambitions) began to trickle into that place, correct? After all, there was a First and a Second Temple in Jerusalem and various Jewish nations, sometimes free and sometimes dominated by other nations such as Rome, before any "Arab" thought to lay claim to territories there, right?

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Once agaian I am left wondering why anyone who knocks Israel doesnt go after the multiple Arab countries who could easily give up a chunk of dirt for their poor Palestinian brothers. Hmmm, I wonder why that hasn't happened.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

The Arab countries do want the palestinians to have their own land - it just happens to be in Israeli occupied land.

You don't have to refer to the OP as a shit disturber and belittle the subject, but feel free to express you thoughts on the topic.

The only way I would know if I like your comments is to read them first.

I would refer to your post as dumb, but that would be rude and disrespectful.

Once agaian I am left wondering why anyone who knocks Israel doesnt go after the multiple Arab countries who could easily give up a chunk of dirt for their poor Palestinian brothers.


This is one point that always confuses me too. Even if it's not land but financial assistance to the Palestinian people. America is often criticized for a disproportionate amount of aid to Palestine vs. Israel but why don't other countries, specifically the Arab ones contribute more?

The reason is simple, they use Palestine to create trouble with Israel because they don't want to be seen as doing it themselves. Syria and Iran use their proxies in Lebanon (Hamas) to continue fighting Israel so Israel doesn't retaliate against them. Assad (the father) did this for years. Every time there was a hint of peace offerings coming from Palestine, he got his proxies to lobby a few more bombs to get Israel away from the negotiating table. A few times he would then offer to be the mediator despite him causing the fighting. He wanted to be seen as an elder statesman and to disguise the true intent of Syria. His real motive was to be seen as strong and anti-Israel but willing to work for peace to gain support for his minority sect in Syria.

That is why I often stand up for Palestine itself. Not because I am anti-Israel but because it is outside forces controlled by Syria and Iran that have a long history of keeping this fighting going. Palestine is not blameless and neither is Israel but left on their own, I believe, maybe naively, that they could find a way to have peace.

That's because none of them have any love for their poor fellow Arab brothers, and basically look at them as gypsies of a sort. Better to keep 'em penned up in camps, they say, than to let them run around free. Besides, if they dismantled those refugee camps -- which are in direct contravention of established UN rules for the length of time such camps are supposed to exist -- where would the photo opportunities of poor, oppressed Palestinians be? In truth, those Arab countries could give a damn less about the Palestinians because nobody, unfortunately, actually cares about them. They're just a useful tool with which to bludgeon Israel and the West, is all.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israeli policies. Israeli society is embroiled in this same debate regarding how best to deal with the formation of an inevitable Palestinian state. But trying to go back in history to determine culpability IMO is an exercise in futility. At this point we must deal with the existing realities and work from there. To go back in history would be comparable to revisiting our own relationship with the indigenous inhabitants of North America. Ancient Jews may have relied on God's promise of a home land, but Manifest Destiny promoted a similar theme and I doubt that many Americans would advocate that we revisit that issue and base some form of land redistribution on historical levels of culpability.

Did you notice how the local bigot YaHey, deftly danced around your comments.

My mother was the same way. She just had a blind spot about Jews and about Israel. But whenever she'd have a legal problem and needed a lawyer, she'd tell me to find her "a good Jewish one" because "nobody can out-Jew another Jew like a Jew" or some such other silliness. There are lots of people with such attitudes, and casual anti-Semitism is actually almost a requirement for entry into the precincts of the far Left these days. I saw some of the most idiotic and vile anti-Jewish signs at more than a few of those Occupy rallies that the Dems and Obama were so effusive in praising last year, for example, though such bigotry, believe me, can be found most anywhere. They're just the most visible practitioners of anti-Semitism lately.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

To be historically accurate, muslims have ruled the land of Israel for a LOT longer that jews have.

Well, one thing is absolutely certain: Muslims didn't rule that land prior to 570 A. D.. In fact, Muslims didn't even exist before then, since the founder of the religion had not yet been born.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

He conflates his weak knowledge of Arab genesis with the origins of Islam all the time. No surprise there. I've found most of the pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab camp, when it comes to the complicated history Jews and Arabs share in the Middle East, to be hugely Procrustean, for the most part. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Yes, it was pretty obvious that he was confusing Arabs with Muslims, despite the fact that neither set of people is a subset of the other. Similarly, he also confuses Jews with Israelis. YaHey isn't exactly a paragon of clear thinking.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

It's kind of like saying that Israel has always been Jewish land.

It's also kinda like saying that Israel has always been Arab land, too, gringo. Actually, if we wanted to be really fair, we'd run the Jews and the Arabs outta there and make it a new British colony or a province for France, but we ain't fair, especially when it comes to the Jews, the vast majority of whom were ready to live in and amongst and side-by-side the Arabs in 1948. Of course, the Arab Legion (with many of the most important units led by British officers) fell in on the Jews and Israel back then and made their big play, while also promising those local Arabs that listened to the foolish advice of Legion military and political leaders that they'd receive back lands ten-times in size of those they'd originally held if they only would leave those lands for awhile. Well, we know how that worked out, now don't we?

I mean, c'mon: How many billions of dollars have been thrown at Gaza and the West Bank by gullible Western governments (who give far, far more -- by contrast -- than do the Arab states)? And how are most of those folks still living there? In squalor, much of it due to outright corruption (that old idiot Arafat himself personally stole billions) and refusing to come to some sort of peace that would've resulted in both Israel and the PA benefiting greatly. Sure, the Israelis haven't been completely without fault, but if you want to tote up suicide bombings, rocket attacks and other metrics of violence and double-dealing, we've got the Palestinians (the two words that immediately come to my mind, unfortunately, when I consider their own peace-making efforts, are "bloodthirsty" and "treacherous") far out in front in terms of the blame game right now.

Face it, sir: There's NO HOPE for a peace in that region as long as the Arabs refuse to accept a Jewish state in their midst, and they never will, because the Palestinians are too useful an object to too many Arab and Muslim states, when it comes to using them as leverage to further the ends of those same states, for them to ever be allowed to prevail in the end.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I can't wait for the Romans to reclaim nearly all of Europe, part of Africa and part of Asia. And Athens could do the same. That would fix
their economies pretty quickly. Then the Achaemenid will claim Iran, Iraq, a big chunk of Asia, part of Europe, Turkey, part of Egypt...
And if Ulan Bator decides, they could claim a fair bit too. Then indian tribes will kick us all out from the US and Canada...

Damn...people are stupid.

I told you before, mon frere: "Manifest Destiny" explains it all. Those folks in the Middle East, though, tote up grievance after grievance and nurse them like little acorns until they grow into mighty oaks. There's no hope of solving those problems, at least in this millennium. ;-)

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Didn't they want to reclaim the Egyptian desert they wandered on for 40 years?

They did. It was called "The Sinai Peninsula," but they gave that back, too, in exchange for peace with their neighbors. Pity that most of them (Sadat/Mubarak Egypt excluded, of course) still weren't satisfied.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think they gave it back because it probably reminded them of less happy times.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! At any rate, they voluntarily gave it back when Anwar Sadat and Egypt entered into a peace agreement with them. Looks like Egypt under the new folks, though, is going to renege on the agreement soon enough, which is typical of Arab double-dealing over there in the Middle East but that ain't gonna change anytime soon, which is something the Israelis understand readily enough.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

They voluntarily gave up the Sinai when we agreed to give them billion$ to accept the peace. We paid them off amigo.

And we didn't do the same for the Egyptians? A little context is in order, compadre. Maybe all those folks are waiting for is us Yanks to give 'em all a little baksheesh and then they'll go away and leave all of us alone.

At any rate, the Israelis are putting a lotta faith in our good offices, vis a vis their own security, wouldn't you say? Hopefully, their faith isn't misplaced.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Make sure to avoid my posts on why the elections process is crappy, and how I hate corporate contributions to the candidates, but I'm gonna warn you now, DON'T open my classified post where I am selling DT Swiss mountain bike wheels, those wheels "MIGHT" have been made in Switzerland; I am not sure since I never cared, but wouldn't you know it Switzerland has been harboring funds that may be connected to money laundering and tax evasion!! I don't want you to come to Slowtwitch and feel bad about what you might read. I am so sorry!