Or is a corporation simply a legal entity constructed to shield a group of people (or sometimes 1 person) from paying exhorbitant taxes and possible legal entanglements?

First off let's get this correct, Large Corporations don't pay any taxes, their customers do!!, because taxes are added to the end cost of most things everyone purchases. If you truly believe big business doesn't pay taxes then you should support doing away with all business taxes because companies don't pay taxes anyway ( look at the savings we could have in the IRS.)

Unions are no different when it comes to donating to candidates because unions are now Big Business, UAW is now part owners of Government Motors and Chrysler. If each member gives as individuals that's fine but if you limit business to donate you must do the same for unions they are both entities not individuals.

If you truly believe big business doesn't pay taxes then you should support doing away with all business taxes because companies don't pay taxes anyway

I do not believe this. And I also do not think that I said this.

Unions are no different when it comes to donating to candidates because unions are now Big Business, UAW is now part owners of Government Motors and Chrysler. If each member gives as individuals that's fine but if you limit business to donate you must do the same for unions they are both entities not individuals.

I am a fire fighter. I am not a businessman, a CPA, or a lawyer. I do not have any experience with how the Big Business and/or the UAW donates. My experience is limited to the IAFF (International Association of Fire Fighters). I am on my local's executive board, and have been for 5 years. I have access as an officer to many financial data. I know where money comes from and how it gets spent. Similarly, my members know this information as well (and so does everyone who donates to FIREPAC).

So when I say that I am comfortable with how my Union disperses money through FIREPAC to political candidates, I can say absolutely yes. Do I like every candidate that we endorse? Absolutely not. Do I vote for every candidate that we endorse? Nope. But I am comfortable knowing that we support candidates that are strong on fire fighter issues. I am comfortable that there is accountability for every dollar that I donate to FIREPAC.

Am I as comfortable with corporate donation? No, I am not. Look at the banking donations on that list. Almost 50/50 for all of them. That's called hedging your bets for political power later on. No matter who wins, you will have some sway. At least with the IAFF, there is an advocacy that is involved.

I do not know how other Unions operate, and I do not speak for them or their practices. I assume it is different than the IAFF, but I do not know. I'm certain they are bound by the same donation laws as we are.

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

It isnt any different in my view.

My surprise was at the amount of money given by unions.
I don't like it that corps can give huge amounts...but I can defend that to a point because those businesses are using their profits to do so. Corporations always do what is in their own best interests. I think that much harsher limits should be in place as far as political donations and spending goes...but that's another topic.

Public Sector Unions (In Wisc) take dues from the membership which comes directly from the tax payer. Those are not profits they are taking from a business...they comes straight from the membership even if the member doesn't agree with who gets the money. Sure the member can find another job...but not all public sector jobs exist in the private sector. --fire fighter being one of those.

The distinction I draw isn't with why they are donating...I get that. Both entitities are doing what they feel is best for their interests. Fine.
What I don't like is that those union dues are typically mandatory in the public sector (often times in the private sector too) and that individuals have no say in those donations. As those union dues are automatically deducted...tax payers are directly funding political candidates. That just rubs me the wrong way.

That coupled with the fact that all my life I've heard that the republicans have all the big business donors locked up only to see this and find the unions are the biggest business of them all with regards to political donations. To me, that was very surprising.

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The distinction I draw isn't with why they are donating...I get that. Both entitities are doing what they feel is best for their interests. Fine.
What I don't like is that those union dues are typically mandatory in the public sector (often times in the private sector too) and that individuals have no say in those donations. As those union dues are automatically deducted...tax payers are directly funding political candidates. That just rubs me the wrong way.

Like I said, I really only come from the experience of the IAFF. It is not entirely true that a member of the IAFF (even an individual member) has no say how political money is spent. Every dollar is approved in one way or another. I grant you, that you are sometimes a "voice in the wilderness". But through various levels (local>district>international) you absolutely have a say. Also, if there is a specific candidate that an individual feels deserves support, that information is listened to and strongly considered at the FIREPAC level.

I will say that it was not always this way. When President Schaitberger came in to the IAFF, this was one of the first things that he changed (noticing that there is a huge political affiliation disparity in the membership of the IAFF). This is why the IAFF/FIREPAC uses this questionairre format.

Money does not go directly from my dues to political candidates...I know that for sure, at least not without permission (of a sort). There is a per capita tax on my Local from the International. That per capita tax is earmarked for all sorts of things, FIREPAC is part of it...and actually a small part of it. At every biennial convention, we apportion our per capitas and decide how much needs to be collected and spent. This is then set for 2 years. As I said, I then have access to the FIREPAC through a process to have my voice heard as to how that money is spent. In my case, union dues CAN be automatically deducted but are not required to be automatically deducted. I could choose to write a monthly check instead. It is certainly more convenient for me and my Local to have my dues automatically deducted.

In my case, tax payers are also directly funding the purchase of Ford vehicles since my paycheck comes right out of the tax-supported General Fund and I have that money directly deposited to a bank account that does nothing except my car payment.

Public Sector Unions (In Wisc) take dues from the membership which comes directly from the tax payer. Those are not profits they are taking from a business...they comes straight from the membership even if the member doesn't agree with who gets the money. Sure the member can find another job...but not all public sector jobs exist in the private sector. --fire fighter being one of those.

I would say this. IAFF fire fighters in Wisconsin have the EXACT same process as I do in Michigan. The labor laws might be different (and are) but the way FIREPAC money and dues are used is exactly the same.


I don't like it that corps can give huge amounts...but I can defend that to a point because those businesses are using their profits to do so. Corporations always do what is in their own best interests.

That is interesting. So a business uses their profits, which is basically from me (or us) the consumer, who may or may not agree with the politics of that business. If I buy a Honeywell air cleaner, I don't necessarily buy it because they support Republicans 85% of the time (or whatever the percentage is).

I don't necessarily know what the answers are. I personally trust the process that I live and operate under (even though I don't always agree with it). I know that every dollar is coming from people who have chosen to be a part of that membership and have (at least though representation) a process to have their voice heard. Our political dollars are spent in such a way that it goes towards furthering fire fighter issues and safety.

I don't necessarily trust Corporate America. I think you said it best, "Corporations always do ehat is in their own best interests." I do not think that Corporate Amerca's best interest is "CITIZEN" America's best interest.

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

There is a difference between buying a product and paying taxes.

The money may come from an individual...but uncle sammy has a way of compelling people to pay them.

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