If you want to get fast at triathlon then do triathlon. If you want to be a "fit" gym rat then do all the CF you want. On second thought I hope all my competitors do CF this winter. I mean shit, How many different things do you people want to do? Are all of you really that A.D.D? 3 sports isn't enough to try to get good at, at one time?

Why are good single sport athletes good at their one sport? Because they do it a lot. Why do so many triathletes suck at triathlon? Maybe because they are are too busy trying to be good at CF? Good triathletes are good at triathlon because they S,B,R hard, a lot, and cut out much of the other BS.

I'm not affiliated with CF or CFE but have been watching and learning about them for a while. They've renewed my interest in training for IM distance since I just don't have more than 12 hours a week to train, no matter what the training style. Here's the brief, broad answer to your programming question for endurance events as I've learned about it:

CFE is based on the premise that LSD training traditionally accomplishes two things at once: fitness and skillwork/race training. In other words, to get in general aerobic (or even anaerobic) shape, you swim, bike, run -- a lot. At the same time, you are perfecting your skills/race training in these sports. It's all combined and typically requires high volume to excel.

CFE separates the fitness aspect from the skill/race training and suggests that intensity can replace volume/time in both aspects. They say do CF WODS to develop your fitness. Then they layer the sport-specific training on top of regular CF workouts in the same day. This added layer is the skill/race training. So everyday (or most days of the week) a CFE program involves a traditional CF workout. For each sport, they recommend additional 1-3 sport-specific workouts a week. These sport-specific workouts will usually involve 1-2 high-intensity interval days, and 1 time trial day (though this mix varies by programmer/coach). The WODS and sport-specific workouts are separated by hours of rest (i.e. life).

Examples: An ultra runner (1 sport athlete) doing CFE will do CF WODs 5-6 days a week and an additional 3 sessions of running tt or intervals. A triathlete (3 sports) will do CF WOD 5-6 days a week and an additional 6 or more sessions of tt or intervals (average 2 per sport). For many triathletes, this will require 2 workouts on most days with at least 3 hours or more of rest between them. They recommend that the first session of the day be focused on whichever aspect is most important at the time (CF WOD if you are generally fitness focused, skill TT or interval if you are race/skill focused). The weekly order of S, B, or R (what day to do which) is more a function of scheduling and ability to focus (e.g. better not to do all your weekly TTs on 3 consecutive days since they require such high level of mental and physical performance) rather than a single pattern that must be kept each week.

Of course, individuals who work with CFE coaches may get a more tailored version, but this is how I understand it is generally done.

thanks man, that is some great insight. Any idea how long one would s/b/r in CFE (say for a full) and would that be a TT (I am guessing so). And does one ever do a brick or is that handled by the CF/CFE combo(which I might actuall buy). Looking at it, do you think total time is more? CF in the morning (1hr) and CFE at night (another hour?)

The CFE website posts 2 workouts daily: the strength/conditioning WOD (this is the type of workout most CFers are familiar with) and the skill-specific (s,b,r). When choosing distance or time for your daily s,b,r, you select based on duration of your inteded competition/event. They code the workouts as follows:
SC = Short Course (<2hrs)
LC = Long Course (2-3hrs)
U = Ultra Distance (>3hrs)

So for HIM and IM most (all?) would follow the U selection on any given day.

Many folks who follow the CFE site on their own (without a coach doing individual programming) will follow the workouts from the previous week (and always stay a week behind) so they can see the whole week of workouts in advance and plan/schedule them according to your life/priorities. If you follow the concurrent daily programming, you have less opportunity to plan and risk that life may get in the way. Since each week has a general balance of tempo intervals (85 to 95% effort) and time trials (100% effort) you can rely on the site program to determine your balance, or you can tweak the balance/schedule a bit to suit your needs (this is what a coach would do for you).

AFAIK, the CFE site does not program bricks, nor do most CFE coaches program them very heavily (esp., say, as compared to traditional trining where bricks may be a weeky deal). To some extent you are right, the CF WOD helps in this regard since the nature of the work is so varied. That said, I imagine any good coach (CFE or non) would suggest you practice even a few limited bricks prior to race day, just as they would recommend same with nutrition/hydration. Race day is hardly ever the time for brand new stuff (but it sounds like you know this already).

As far as daily time, I think your estimate is about right, thoughh actual working time may be slightly less than 2 hrs. I don't know of many CF WODs that go longer than 40 min nor do regularly see s/b/r tempo or tt workouts beyond 40 min.

Thanks for the info. Obviously you have some eperience with this. Staying a week behind is a great tip. I have been going through the archive to try to get some concept of volume. I would say for a half the U volume would seem fine (especially given the intensity), still doubtful on the full. And in reality, I would still do som 60+ mile rides just to get good saddle time in. I am thinking I may give it a go this season. Still concerned about recovery/injury from the constant intensity. Of course, ST would just say HTFU.

My other big concern is the promoting/pushing this on a rookie long course triathletes. I have a friend who has been sold CFE for his first IM. I (and others)) have tried to direct him elsewhere, but have failed miserably. I simply cannot imagine facing a 2.4 mile swim for the first time, 112 mile bike for the first time and 26.2 mile run for the first time all on race day. This is particularly true with the mental, nutrition and pacing aspects all unknown and untraine; it just seems dangerous.

I joined a Cross Fit gym 11/09 and went 3-4x a week through April. It didn't help my tri abilities at all. Others at the gym would run less than before they joined CF and report their 5K times went down me the opposite happened. Plus I would get sore and at times slight injury issues that interfered with my training. Since I would have a training plan working with a coach for tris and CF they would post the work the night before hard to coordinate things well. Example being really sore in your upper body from lifting didn't help with the swim the next day. The coaches wanted me to do the Cross Fit Endurance program and tried to push me to do it over and over but I didn't see it wise to do hard intense training and mostly short workouts all the time.

I spoke to a owner of another Cross Fit gym who used to race tris including IM. He suggested Cross Fit Endurance is good program for those racing Sprints and Olys but for those doing HIM and IMs it was a bit of a conflict as you need to build up resiliency to be able to s/b/r for so long.

My husband and daughter joined and still go to Cross Fit. They love it. They both do tris but for them Cross Fit is more their primary athletic pursuit. Cross Fit is a lot of fun but for me it really doesn't fit in well with my goals to do long course tris.

I don't understand these workouts. A 1200m TT swim is lot easier than a 10k or 30mi TT on the bike. Just in term of length of time for a descent age grouper... Swimming, 18-25 minutes, running85-100 minutes, biking 65-80 minutes.

How are those workout in any way comparable??? No matter how fast you swim in, a 1200 is a short swimming workout

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Don't shoot them down now they are on a roll how Crossfit is a good plan...

I think that is a good question. Since there does not sem to be a plan per se, I am thinking if in you rotation you chose bike or run last time, you choose swim on the third.

Sounds like others here went through similar analysis (thanks for sharing here and risking the ST wrath). I too like the overall fitness CF has started to bring. I think there is a way to meld CF/CFE/and longer rides all together, it will just take more work than I was originally hoping. Unlike the CF folks might suggest, I do not think I will turn to dust or grow a third head by combining all 3 in my training.

Thanks for all the insight today. The Triathlete article still seems totally disingenuous. Glad I got my Lava today to provide some legit tri reading.

The volume concern for IMs and other ultra events is mostly a mental issue, since its been proven by other athletes that IMs and ultras can be done well this way. But as an athlete and a coach, I def. understand the psych hurdle. There's no reason one can't do CFE style training and test a few (or more) long days for learning, practice, and/or just confidence. I'm pretty sure lots of folks do this. CFEs point, I think, is just that, physically, the long stuff isn't necessary if you do the short stuff right. Keep in mind doing it right not only includes incredibly high intensity on a daily basis, but also good nutrition, good rest, and all the healthy recovery things one needs to focus on to perform at high intensity daily. Also learning about and testing pacing, hydration, etc. As you recognize, this stuff is not trivial. First timers in lots of activites suffer from too much too soon in the training arena (and too little too late in prep/rest/recovery/strategy/hydration/nutrition), but this is hardly unique to CFE and certainly not something I've heard them encourage.

For me it comes down to different strokes for different folks. If you think it can work for you, or if you think it can't, you're probably right. My first IM will be done using CFE cause I like the concept, I've seen it produce results, and I just don't have the time for an alternative. But i have a decent endurance training background so that will help.

For your friend who's a rookie, I'd highly recommend he either find an experienced coach or seek out folks with experience who have made all the first time CFE mistakes so he can learn from them without repeating them. There are many CFE first time IMers out there with great experiences. Lots with lessons to share too. If you or he want to connect with experienced (recreational or highly competitive) CFE IMers, hit me up via pm and I'll try to point you in the right direction.

I would agree with Brian.......

Great workout.......yes
Lots of fun and practical for everday life......yes
Motivating and something to do other than S/B/R.....yes
Ideal for making you the best possible triathlete you can be.........not so much

I think, like many of the options out there (TRX/Pilates/high volume/low volume/weight lifting) etc that whether or not they are ideal totally depends on your goals. If your goal is to just have fun and stay in shape and do some triathlons, then any and all of that stuff is great.

But if you want to be as fast as possible at all costs in the sport of triathlon, you need to train pretty tri specific! Let me know if you ever see any Kona winners or marathon winners that regularly do CF ;-)


Last marathon I did, all the CF'ers (they had on CF shirts) were walking most of the race :-/

Funny how this guy is sponsored by CF and CFE.

Why publish such a fluff piece? Should the magazine not at least scratch beneath the surface and check his claims?

Why not post an article about how going to church makes you faster?

yep, the article is disturbing for sure. I am not expecting the NY Times from Triathlete but just a little fact checking would have ben nice. This one of my overall complaints with CF/CFE, you dig just a little and suddenly things change. The simple plain truth is enough for me. This guy was an average triathlete, got injured, used CF as rehab, got better very quickly, now uses some undisclosed training regime that includes, CF and CFE to compete in duathlons. Maybe it's not sexy, but it seems closer to the truth.

I think training other disciplines in the off season makes sense. I was just questioning how you pcik one of 3 activities, that range dramatically in intensity.

A 1/2 marathon time trial... meaning training race. Crap, personally, I'd need a 2-3 day recovery from that. Cycling, 1 day recovery. Swimming... recovery is a non-issue there for the most part when you're above 500m.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I never jump in threads about CF, its not good for business, but since this one has stayed civil up to this point, I will provide some insight into "the magical" program.

I started CF 3 years ago, since I'm in the military and the guys at work were doing it. This basically brought me off the couch after about 5 years. I grew up a swimmer, not quite good enough to compete at my D1 school. After I didn't make the team, I played club water polo, and ran some, then after college nothing. I got in great shape in the course of the first year, and really enjoyed the workouts and the fitness level that I achieved. One year in, I shifted my diet to a modified Paleo-esque diet, and really accelerated my performance, shed about 10 lbs and got really fit. I ran my first half marathon of off very little training (about a month of unstructured runs 2x a week.) I ran that 1/2 in 1:42. That was August 09. My brother is a very competitive triathlete (elite) so I decided to buy a bike and throw my hat in the ring.

Started biking in Nov 09, and started training for triathlon, using a CFE based approach. 4-5 CF workouts a week, 6 sport specific workouts a week. My first race was another 13.1 (carlsbad) which I completed in 1:28:45. I did my first sprint (Tritonman) in Feb, and posted a 1:03, got 3rd in my AG. This was a smaller local race, but a good start. I raced a couple more local sprints with bigger fields, and always made top 10 AG, usually about in the 5th-7th range. I did Superfrog Half-Iron in April. I did a 5:07, which got me 5th (25-29.) I signed up for Vineman, and started training for my first full Ironman. I went to a CFE trainers course in March, and used a CFE based approach to train. I followed the Strength and Conditioning workouts from that site, as well as the CFE programming. Exceptions - I ride with a local cycling group on Saturdays (50-65 miles avg.) Other than that, I followed the program pretty closely. My longest run was a 10k leading up to the race, and I had never ridden 100 miles. However, I developed an achilles injury that surfaced during my taper, and I decided to race anyway. I did the swim in 1:03, bike in 6:15, and ended up walking the whole 2nd half of the marathon. I know many people will view this as a failing of my training, but I would like to stress it was based on the injury and not fatigue or cramping. I actually felt like I nailed the nutrition and was very frustrated because I felt like I could have easily broken 11 based on fitness, but my body only held up for an 11:55. I'm not very proud of the overall time, but it was a great learning experience. All of these races were completed on a road bike with clip ons and aluminum wheels.

Let my achilles heal for 2 months, doing only swimming and strength work. I started training again in late Sept, and got enough fitness in to win my AG (now 30-34) at the Fearless tri, admittedly a less competitive and smaller field than some of the other local races. So, at this point, based on CFE training, I would call myself somewhat competitive at the local level (like drake said earlier.) I bought a new tri bike, and some zipps, as well as a power meter. I just finished Coggan's book, and am giving the 16-week FTP plan a shot. Over the off season (Oct-Nov-Dec) I rode very consistently 3x a week (usually with CFE intervals sandwiched in) as well as a lot of climbing, probably more than they prescribe.

I am faster than ever, looking to break 1:20 at Carlsbad next weekend, off of 2x runs a week and never more than 15 miles. Last weekend in a warmup 15k, I split 17:40 for 3, 36:45 for 6, and finished 9.3 in 57:38, for an overall pace of 6:11. My current swim is at 22:45 for a 1500 SCM tt. My current FTP is 254, with another test coming up soon.

Since the beginning of Dec, I have cut my CF workouts to 2x a week, and been riding more in an effort to lose weight. I was about 165 with 9% bodyfat, now down to about 160.

Things I would like to point out to wrap up this mega-post. My results are not typical. Im not suggesting that my program was better than anyone else's. I think there are many ways to success. I started with CFE because I was into Crossfit already, so it made sense to me. I don't drink the Kool-aid and espouse the religious fervor that many of my CF friends do. It has worked for me this last year. Maybe Paulo or Jordan would say I saw the results I did in spite of my training. That could certainly be true.

My thoughts on CFE - many people look at it as a shortcut. I have as much time to train as I want, so the reason I stick to the intensity based approach is that it has worked for me. I have gotten much faster running 2x a week, with one track session and one 4-13 mile run. Could I be faster on BarryP's program? Hell, I don't know. It ain't broke right now, so I'm not fixing it, especially since my achilles are healthy and I'm still dropping my times.

In starting the power based program, I find it to be very similar to CFE, minus the Active Recovery rides. CFE usually calls for 2x intervals (1 shorter, 1 longer -comparable to NP and AE workouts, and a tempo or TT (threshold) ride. I also have a friend who uses endurance nation, and my training weeks look pretty similar. I am all about testing other programs. I'm open to what others say and write here. I definitely wonder how I will do on more volume, etc.

My goals for the season: sub 4:30 at Oceanside, 10:15 at St. George. Ill let you know how that goes. I do plan on doing a 12 week build cycle to increase run and cycle volume. Will it look exactly like CFE? Probably not, but I'm not selling anything either.

I don't think going long is strictly a mental thing.

It's true that you don't have to go long to do ultra-distance events and you can even perform well (depending on how you define "well") without it. I have always believed (without any hard proof) that you can probably get to 95% of your theoretical best IM performance without ever training more than 1 hour at a time. But, if you want that last 5% or (whatever it actually is), then you need to invest in the longer training.

That said, I believe that if you dropped the CF from CFE, e.g. just do the s/b/r portions of the CFE program, that you could probably do equally as well with even less training time. Of course, there's more to fitness than s/b/r and I think for the vast majority of triathletes, they should go for well-rounded fitness. Only 1% can be in the top 1%, for 90+% of the triathlete population, would you rather devote tons of additional training time so that you can be 5% faster and still not in the top 1% or would it better to spend considerably less time and to have more all-around fitness? There's no right answer to this question, it's a matter of personal choice.

Then what you believe is dead wrong.

I'll throw my 2c in. I liked the CF I;ve seen for "fitness" and have seen it do wonders for the out of shape folks out there. Their hard workouts can get you mentally ready to suffer on race day. Their WOD's are all hard , TTs, all out mile repeats etc. BUT, how can the regular athlete get ready to compete for 4.5-5.5 hours in a HIM event when they never go more than 1 hour in a workout? Just the mental aspect of racing for 4.5 times more time takes practice. Also, CFE is not really that much better on time than traditional training. If I have to find time for 2 workouts separated by 3 hours every day it sucks up much more time than just getting up, banging out the 1-2 hours of planned training and then getting back to my usual life.

Lastly, Triathlete is hardly journalism, but I expected some fact checking and more detail in the article, like how many hours do their "sample" athletes train? mileage? yards? and of course, before vs after results. I'm progressing nicely on hard, steady training with strength work in for fun, so I'm not planning to join the local box and drive my wife insane with "one more thing " to do.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Before I ever raced triathlon I had been doing crossfit type training for years and once I started triathlon I never seemed to have problem with injuries. This past year is actually the first year out of 5seasons I suffered a serious injury. While in the Navy I used to do alot of cross fit type workouts out to sea during my preperation and base phases of training, I usually quit during the build phase. I think Its been a great help to me in triathlon. 2009 two months after getting back from deployment I placed 22nd and 1st in my age group at Augusta 70.3 on a base phase loaded with crossfit, trainer rides, jump roping, and treadmill runs. I think triathletes can really benefit from the higher repition stuff but stay away from low rep heavy lifts. I think doing the high rep lifting focusing on form helps develop symmetry in your body and reduce asymmetries from training.

some of my old workouts most geared towards upper body as a swimming replacement at sea

buds warning order(an old navy classic here)- 20 pushups, 6pullups, 20 sit ups, 6dips X 10 to 20 depending on your fitness
scorecher 500 - 500 reps 45 pound bench bar for time
the devastator - max reps for 135bench, 185deadlift, 135hang clean, 135hang cleans
10min leaning rest- hold push up positon for 10mins
20pushups to 1:00 min hard jump rope X 20
jumping rope with wrist weights
doing medicine ball workouts that lasted 30-45 min with a grab bag of exersises
also lots of yoga, bear crawling, massive sets of body weight lunges and body weight squats, and plancking exersies routines that lasted 10-15min

Paradoxically my injury this year I think was related to a crossfit workout I did with an old friend of mine from the Navy whom is in the Teams. I asked him to take me to the "Pain Cave" and thats exactly what I got(be warned if you ask an operator to take you to the pain cave because they have been deeper into then you can imagine aka Hell Week), I took 2weeks easy after the workout and think I should have taken 4. I would'nt take it back though and don't regret it, it was the thoughest workout of my life and really taught me what I'm capable of.

note: crossfit type training has been around alot longer than it was called crossfit, "crossfit" is just the organization of a certain workout mentality
before crossfit it was just called supersetting with no rest

It may not be 95% but, I think it's closer to 95% than 80%. Also, I meant 1 hour in a single sport at a time. Brick workouts would be over an hour.

I don't think CFE would get you there. I don't think a total of 6 s/b/r workouts a week is enough.

thanks for responding (and to everyone else for letting this not devolve into either CF is great or CF sucks or my seat is too high (which it most assuredly is).

Mind me asking what your longest swim, bike (was it 65?) and run (sounded like 10k) were during your training? It is funny you mention the time. I was looking at this and thinking (aside from the gross savings on my long weekend stuff), the week time committment seemed to be more.

I'd am still too skeptical for the full, but have some calls in locally to talk to a CFE guy about plans for a half. Ultimately, I may just end up doing my regular tri training and mixing in 2-3 CF workouts because I do seem them adding benefit.

My longest swim is probably irrelevant to anyone else, because I spent the first 20 yrs of my life swimming 10,000 yds a day. I never swim more than about 2500, but thats because I try to do the bare minimum to compete. I can easily do the IM swim in around an hour with minimal training. My 1:03 at Vineman was due to being nervous to go harder than fitness.

My longest ride was 70ish, but that was on a road bike with my group. My longest TT by myself in the aero position was 36 miles.

My longest run was 10k.

I think its important to note two things:

1.) I think this was perfectly adequate training to complete my ironman. I will do more volume for St George, but that is based on my goals and what I feel I need to improve on. At no point during Vineman did I think, man, if I only wouldve done a 100 mi ride and a 20 mile run! I felt very well prepared.

2.) The training is very intense and you have to watch overtraining. You are putting it all on the line every single workout, and can get fatigued quickly. Watch it, and take a rest day if needed.

If you have questions about how to set up a program, I would be glad to help. Im glad you are skeptical, if you bought things hook line and sinker I would be worried. The program has goods and others, just like any other program. I am willing to discuss both, on this forum and offline if you want. As far as the time commitment, I found most weeks between 10-14 hours. I won't say for sure, since ST is full of people who train 20-25 regularly (just ask them), but I think it is not much less than the average triathlete. I certainly never felt I wasn't working hard enough, with 2 a days every day except the weekends.

Here is some more info on the CFE programming.

http://www.crossfitaltitude.com/...cbrian_endurance.pdf

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Ryan Hunt
Owner - CrossFit Monrovia
http://www.crossfitmonrovia.com

1'st - thanks for serving and protecting us. I'm very serious on this one.

2'nd - Could your ability to complete the Ironman have been from your military experience and not CF? - When I watch the Kona re-runs - My favorite part is the Seals jumping out of the plane before the race starts. I'd wager that most military men could easily do the Ironman just based on their profession.

Ryan, thanks for the info. The programmatic portion is interesting with the interval/stamina division. As a rough guide, what would be the longest stamina s/b/r be if training for a half or full im. Would you program similar to smugfit (above) or would the stamina workouts include longer sessions?

I can really see using this for short course and still think I could pull of better overall fitness and my same (if not a little faster) half using this protocol, but I am very concerned about recovery/injury/burnout using CFE. What have your seen with longer course athletes?

Thanks for the insight.