Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy?

Jan 14, 11 12:57

Post #1 of 179 (17506 views)

Disclaimer- I have been trying CF out since Kona and am really have fun with the workouts BUT I do not drink the kool-aid on it being the be all end all in the world of exercise and fitness. One of my biggest complaints is the mentality issue of �Do it our way and you'll be _______ (the best, fastest, strongest, fittest, prettiest, etc.).� I am a firm believer in the concept that there is no ONE way to do most anything and I am always open to learning new ideas.

All that said, the CF world is pushing the article in Feb. Triathlete magazine as the gospel in proof that CF/CFE is the new holy grail in triathlon training.
http://triathlon.competitor.com/2011/01/training/go-inside-one-triathletes-venture-into-crossfit-endurance_18648

The article is about a seemingly very nice guy, aptly name Guy Petruzzelli (through the miracle of the search function I found he posted here in the classifieds at least in 2004- so maybe he is still here and can shed some light on this). The article somewhat vaguely discusses his use of CF/CFE for rehab and training as a "professional triathlete." I use the quotes because I could find zero results for Guy as a triathlete. I did find some for him as a duathlete, and while he sure is a heck of a lot faster than me, his times do not appear to meet what I would consider Elite or Professional.

http://www.athlinks.com/searchbeta.aspx?term=guy%20petruzzelli

I bring this up: 1. because I like CF (I have gotten stronger and more flexible using it in the off-season- and it's fun), 2. I am examining CFE as a possible training method for this year's half-IMs, and 3. I am trying to assess the credibility of CF and its claims/marketing (is it all bs, part bs or true gospel).

So what say you Slowtwitchians? I know CF has been, ahem, discussed here before, but I am truly examining CFE (whose training protocols seems cloaked in mystical shrouds). Has anyone here trained or done long course (halfs or fulls) using CF/CFE and if so what did your training plan look like? If the training principles are so darn good, why the need to BS us in the article?

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:00

Post #2 of 179 (17497 views)

Yeah for the half and full crossfitalons i use it all the time. When i'm doing tri's i prefer to train in the sports that are actually part of the race.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:11

Post #3 of 179 (17459 views)

Ugh. This'll be ugly...

Punching cockroaches from day 1.

http://www.tri-junkie.com/

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:14

Post #4 of 179 (17452 views)

No fight outta me I'm afraid. I like CrossFit. Although I am a slow slug right now.... Having more to do with general lassitude than any one training doctrine or another.

I like CrossFit. Very "manly". ;)

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:17

Post #5 of 179 (17431 views)

I'd suspect that doing the intervals they suggest would improve aerobic capacity. I doubt that someone who does CFE and uses that as their primary tri training is going to be tearing it up on anything but a local level. Even then it's going to be a local area with a very small pond.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 14, 11 13:21

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:21

Post #6 of 179 (17405 views)

"Your toughest day of racing isn�t as bad as your hardest CFE workout."

Not so much.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:21

Post #7 of 179 (17404 views)

Theres nothing wrong with crossfit as an activity or a way to workout. Its really cool in a lot of ways.

But it is not he key to endurance training as triathletes or distance runners or cyclists define endurance.

It might help you stay in better *overall* physical condition (still able to open a can of peanut butter while running 5 minute miles, for example) but I wouldn't expect it to work miracles unless you have some nagging injuries that it happens to solve.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:21

Post #8 of 179 (17404 views)

desert dude wrote:

I'd suspect that doing the intervals they suggest would improve aerobic capacity. I doubt that someone who does CFE and uses that as their primary tri training is going to be tearing it up on anything but a local level. Even then it's going to be a local area with a very small pond.

Hey I like my local small pond thank you... assuming the fast people from my local small pond don't show up....

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:22

Post #9 of 179 (17398 views)

I like it crossfitalons. I agree but I also think CFE agrees as they have you do some s/b/r. I just cannot for the life of me find out how much, how frequently, etc. to evaluate it.

In the Triathlete article, it talks about Guy finishing a 5x 1 mile interval session, which is certainly something I did in my traditional IM training, but what I cannot tell is whether that was a long run, speedwork or easy day (which I would doubt there is such a thing in CF).

I guess at the core what I am wondering is how different is CFE v. traditional training (and not traditional alleged ST training (10k swim, 300 mi bike, 60 mile run) either)?

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:25

Post #10 of 179 (17386 views)

Tri Poseur wrote:

I like it crossfitalons. I agree but I also think CFE agrees as they have you do some s/b/r. I just cannot for the life of me find out how much, how frequently, etc. to evaluate it.

In the Triathlete article, it talks about Guy finishing a 5x 1 mile interval session, which is certainly something I did in my traditional IM training, but what I cannot tell is whether that was a long run, speedwork or easy day (which I would doubt there is such a thing in CF).

I guess at the core what I am wondering is how different is CFE v. traditional training (and not traditional alleged ST training (10k swim, 300 mi bike, 60 mile run) either)?

"Some" should be replaced with all or at least the vast majority.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:34

Post #11 of 179 (17356 views)

Thanks Tom, definitely not trying to get a fight (and especially not with you) BUT I am trying to get answers on CFE. It is like black ops...everyone seems to know they exist but nobody knows exactly what they do. CFE is regularly talked about, debated, etc., but nobody seems to know what the program really consists of.

I know there is the 13 Weeks To A 13-Hour Ironman book and am wondering if, in the end, CFE is really similar.

I really like CF (and the theory of CFE too) but I am really struggling seeing it apply to longer ocurse tris.

Also, for the record, I am not trying to win anything, simply go a little faster (or not slow down) as I advance in age groups.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:37

Post #12 of 179 (17344 views)

Tri Poseur wrote:

Thanks Tom, definitely not trying to get a fight (and especially not with you) BUT I am trying to get answers on CFE. It is like black ops...everyone seems to know they exist but nobody knows exactly what they do. CFE is regularly talked about, debated, etc., but nobody seems to know what the program really consists of.

I know there is the 13 Weeks To A 13-Hour Ironman book and am wondering if, in the end, CFE is really similar.

I really like CF (and the theory of CFE too) but I am really struggling seeing it apply to longer ocurse tris.

Also, for the record, I am not trying to win anything, simply go a little faster (or not slow down) as I advance in age groups.

Lets say you want to be a better baseball player, do you go pick up a basketball and start shooting hoops or do you go pick up a baseball bat and start hitting balls? Its the same idea. If you want to get all pretty and crossfitted out go for it, but if you want to be the best triathlete you need to do triathlon training.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:45

Post #13 of 179 (17323 views)

ok, I think we are talking past each other. I 100% agree BUT I also think CFE 100% agrees. The difference (as best as I can discern) is that CFE says you do higher intensity/lower volume as your training + include CF (which I 100% agree is definitely not s/b). CFE absolutely includes swimming, biking and running.

I just cannot find actual training logs or data as to the actual volume included in the program.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:51

Post #14 of 179 (17301 views)

Try following the CFE WOD's here: http://www.crossfitendurance.com/

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:55

Post #15 of 179 (17289 views)

I lift things up and put them down.

I lift things up and put them down.

I lift things up and put them down.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [dongustav] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:55

Post #16 of 179 (17288 views)

But what do you do for a job?

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:58

Post #17 of 179 (17282 views)

I lift things up and put them down.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [fefe] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 13:58

Post #18 of 179 (17282 views)

Thanks, I have been all over that site. But I still do not have an answer for- assuming I am in the "U" category (which is not very clear), what does my half IM plan look like?

For example Thursday's wod was

Thursday, 1.13.11: Time Trial D 13
CFE Strength and Conditioning Rest Day
Choose ONE sport and do the following for your distance:
Swim: SC: 800m TT, LC: 1000m TT, U: 1200m TT
Bike: SC: 12 mile TT, LC: 20 mile TT, U: 30 mile TT
Run: SC: 2 mile TT, LC: 10k TT, U: 13.1M TT
C2: SC: 2k TT, LC: 3k TT, U: 6k TT

So, a 30 mile TT is definitely intense. But is that the longest ride for my half IM/full IM training? and I know I get to choose but is there a Plan anywhere that suggests how to order my workouts or is it much like regular CF, a crapshoot?

Last edited by: Tri Poseur: Jan 14, 11 14:00

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:07

Post #19 of 179 (17262 views)

I'd like to see the secret plans, too. I got invited to a certification class, but I'm not paying $595 for that.

The idea that doing CF will redefine your sense of "hard" is a good thing, so if you have been training mostly LSD and then you start doing CF, sure you will see improvements because now you realize what a wimp you were. But many ST'ers (self included) already know what "hard" is in terms of s/b/r, and we each have to choose how much intensity we can train, and the less CF you do, well, the more time you have to do quality s/b/r.

The other variable that can't be measured is CHANGE. Some people train aimlessly, and when they subject themselves to ANY consistent program they will see improvement.

So until CFE starts turning out race winners at all tri distances from diverse backgrounds, I remain skeptical.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [fefe] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:15

Post #20 of 179 (17245 views)

It sounds like we are in the same boat- skeptical but open. Anerobic and/or Zone 4/5 training is nothing new. It would be funny if you went to the certification and they gave you Gail B.'s plan 13 weeks to a 13 hr IM (or more likely copied it and put some skulls and swords across it and called it the hardcore CF IM Plan).

CF is definitely good at marketing...I am just trying to see what, if anything, is beneath the bold claims. I really would have dismissed already, but CF itself has actually lived up to most of its claims (except making me prettier).

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:22

Post #21 of 179 (17219 views)

I'm giving it a try next month. It looks like fun. When bike racing season starts up for real I doubt I'll have time for it.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:29

Post #22 of 179 (17203 views)

I have a fairly hard-line view on Crossfit as I explained in my dissertation HERE. The reason being, I get no fewer than 2-3 e-mails every week, asking me whether or not an athlete should replace some of their SBorR workouts w/ CFE.

Is it a fantastic workout? Yes.
Is it an appropriate replacement for an athlete looking to maximize his/her potential in endurance sports? Hardly.

With regards the article in Triathlete, I took particular interest as one of the subjects of it was a local triathlete/coach, whom I consider a friend (although we disagree on certain training principles, CFE being one of them). Something I found 'interesting':

Keep in mind, this athlete has an 11:33 IM LP personal best:

....At Ironman Lake Placid, she finished in less than 12 hours and PR'd her run.....

Without being an a##hole, anyone care to translate that without the CFE spin?

From the same perspective as the Triathlete article, lets create a scenario, using a similar angle:

Joe has a NYC Marathon PR of 2:55. This year, under the guidance of CrossFit coaches, he cuts his training volume in 1/2 and starts using CrossFit Endurance. He laughs at his friends who spend hours every weekend logging 20 mile runs as he's replaced these workouts, with high intensity training.
Fast forward to that Fall's NYC Marathon and Joe finishes in a remarkable 3:10, running the final 10K faster than he ever has!!!

:)
---

Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Last edited by: BrianPBN: Jan 14, 11 14:31

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [BrianPBN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:45

Post #23 of 179 (17167 views)

I was doing crossfit for the past year, just to do something different. As I have some races planned for next year I started adding back in s/b/r. My coach is CFE certified and took such a "my way or nothing" attitude, that I stopped going to that box.

From my start with CF, all I kept hearing about was how they redefine Fitness as something that is measurable and repeatable. That is not possible with CFE (or they have not provided any scientific data to back it up) I am all about what really works, but until you have a CFE guy that actually competes, not completes, it will have a hard time being considered a replacement.

So, I will still use CF for core work, and I may use CFE for 1/2s and shorter, but for Fulls, I will return to my conventional training that works.

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 14:59

Post #24 of 179 (17145 views)

If you want to take up a collection so that I can pay for the certification class, I'll go ;)

Here's another thing about CF in general that I take offense to: Take any slob. Motivate them to clean up their diet (paleo style). Now add regular exercise. ANY exercise that features a modicum of strength work. Voila! Prettier physique. This is not rocket science. The dietary changes are the foundation of any decent athletic performance. That is not specific to CF.

Here's another gem of a quote: "Repetition is the enemy and results in a decreased ability to build fitness." Huh. Funny thing about all that swimming I've been doing...seems to have made me a better, fitter swimmer. I must be an idiot. Same with biking--lots of intervals, lots and lots of time riding long and fast. I have Gail B's book of tri plans, and news flash--there ain't a whole lot of repetition in there.

The word spin is priceless. I mean, really, is any of us repeating exactly the same thing over and over? Hell no. But if you dress it up as IF a person who does not do CF is being repetitive, then non-CF becomes the enemy.

Ugh.

But if I went to the certification class and they gave me shirts and certificates with skulls and swords, I'd be all over that!

Re: Crossfit/Crossfit Endurance- Triathlete article = fishy? [Tri Poseur] [ In reply to ]

Jan 14, 11 15:42

Post #25 of 179 (17081 views)

Yawn.

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