I listened for about five minutes on the peloton. Listening to him trying to defend these hypotheticals when pressed is getting uncomfortable.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I see they are endorsing an airstrike by Biden.

In a question to Sauer, Justice Sonia Sotomayor posed a hypothetical: If the president ordered the military to assassinate a rival he views as corrupt, "is that within his official act for which he can get immunity?"
Sauer answered that, "it would depend," but "we can see that could well be an official act."

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Agreed.

To Robert's question about whether accepting a bribe to name an ambassador is an official act, and therefore immune, and his response it that those two actions would have to be severed because part is official and part is private... but you can't indict on one part without the other...

It all serves to prove that arguably very smart people can sound very smart and somewhat convincing while arguing a position that is borderline or full-on bull shit.

In a nutshell:

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

We're getting to the "we don't suffer fools lightly" part of this.

Justice Sotomayor: “If the president ... orders someone to assassinate [a rival], is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity?”

Trump’s attorney: “It would depend on the hypothetical, but we can see that could well be an official act.”

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Justice Jackson seems pissed in her questioning.

---

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"Go yell at an M&M"

No they have won, their objective, they have no expectations of winning this case. But they won by delaying, which is there legal right, and by taking this case, the Supreme Court has made themselves look like complete idiots having to listen and ask questions about this. They should never have taken this case up.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Yes.

And her point was great. Essentially (paraphrasing): You are worried about a chilling effect on the Presidency. I'm worried about emboldening a President, who could then run a crime ring out of the White House with no fear of penalty if we grant absolute immunity.

His response, that it has essentially been that way for 200 years fell flat.

I don't know how the decision process works on this one, but I still want to see how Alito and Thomas vote, if this is one where they all vote.

Not tuned in. Let me guess, Thomas is a silent participant today?

His lawyers argument that is the strength of the institutions ability to resist a rogue POTUS is what’s kept our Republic intact for 200 years, ergo immunity would not affect that continuity, is embarrassing. Wow.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Sure, it's a win in that sense. But I think it's also just fine that we get in writing things that we previously thought didn't need writing down.

Similar to some Federal election processes that we previously thought were perfunctory ceremony.

First they declined to expedite it. Then they took it. That was not an accident.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Trumps lawyer has already won. They never should have heard this absurd argument.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

And am I correct that after they decided to take it (which everyone knew they would) they placed it on the last day of the session? As in, they gave Trump a maximum delay.

Yes. Now watch them take 6 months to rule on it.

This is a big fucking joke.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

This is an absurd case that should not have gotten this far at all.

The Republican justices are hearing this case in order to delay trump’s trial. This is once again showing SCOTUS is exercising partisan power to help trump.

I don’t think the nut jobs on the court are nutty enough to rule in favor of trump, but we need to be very vocal that the court is helping trump by hearing the case in the first place.

From what I know (which, admittedly, isn't much), the President would never "order" it; he'd ask the CIA to "look into it" and the CIA would get it done

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

If they had let the lower court ruling stand, we would have had it in right.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

This..

The lower court ruling covered all the bases. There is nothing that they will add to that ruling.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

And their ruling may be to remand back to the DC circuit to decide if leading coup is an official act, delaying it even further.

And of course Alito is suggesting we should be worried that a loser of an election could be tossed in prison if they don't have immunity (we'll become a banana republic, essentially), which is also Alito expressing no faith in the American judicial system.

And Kagan is now pushing back on that by supporting that we have a robust legal system with many steps, appeals, fail safes (admitting that we get it wrong, now and then), and if they all fail haven't we destroyed our democracy.

Alito just can't help himself. He has to argue the stupid side through a "question."

That's why we gave blanket immunity to murderers, because without it they are more likely to kill witnesses and such.

---

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"Go yell at an M&M"

LOL. I saw on twitter that the justices need to be asked this question "could a female president get an abortion in idaho?

It depends but yes, if she had got pregnant as an official act of the office.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I think MAGA needs to hear it from the bosses directly.....work with me here.

Someone needs to tell Alito instead of saying:


He could just save time and say:

I just read that Robert’s sounds like he’s inclined to send it back.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You mean we can't just throw people into a prison boat off Gitmo without due process? (ignoring that fact that we don't even have prison boats off Gitmo). Seems obvious, but somebody needs to tell Ginny Thomas.

“The Supreme Court of the United States is literally deciding today whether Donald Trump can legally have them all executed on January 20, 2025, and the upshot I get from major media updates from inside the courtroom is that they are taking a serious look at it

America is over”

- Seth.Abramson on threads.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You need to find a new clever quote.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

True that

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

It is not my fault it keeps being relevant.

Do you have a better description of conservatism.

Where’s Stanley Tucci?

It looks like the term was scheduled to end yesterday. So, they added a day for this case.

The Court certainly is introducing a lot of delay. But, normally if someone files a cert petition in February the case would not get argued until the next term, which starts in about October. In that sense, this is not maximum delay. It’s just enough delay to save Trump from a trial in this case before the election.

I think conservatives usually are appreciative of the knowledge and wisdom passed down from previous generations that, while incomplete, has brought us to this point.

Progressives usually are dismissive of the knowledge and wisdom passed down from previous generations because it was borne out of ignorance and used to oppress outgroups.

How'd I do?

Complete bullshit......as usual.

They had this little bit in the NYTimes when talking about opinions on college protests.

Unfortunately most of these labels are meaningless these days.

Historically Conservatives have been for family values, institutions, fiscal responsibility, property rights, the military, etc. Today many people that claim to be a conservative embrace a thrice divorced serial philander. They love a guy who attacks the FBI and DOJ, ran up more debt than any president in history, loves imminent domain, mocked the military who gave their lives for their country. The folks that used to be for free trade now embrace a guy who loses trade wars and loves tariffs.

This is not healthy for American democracy.

I prefer order over chaos so I must be a Conservative.

Funny that so many people that hide behind that label today support a president who is chaos personified. He wants to tear down the institutions that have made American civilization great.

I see Nutella is in full on loser talk mode bitterly complaining again

He’s a loser but he’s a smart loser. He knows

Rising inflation
Falling GDP
Rising gas prices
No exec orders on the border disaster
Biden again showing incredible weakness by taking neither/both sides of the Israel Gaza dispute in a weak attempt to appease both parts of his base
The multiple law fare attempts that are not only failing (by posters own admission in this thread) but worse are backfiring with independents far more worried about the list above

Spells disaster 6 months out. He knows he can’t keep making excuses for the current admin because nobodies buying the bullshit he’s selling anymore

So he talks about TFG and “chaos”. Because, you know the current situation isn’t “chaos” at all. Pay no attention to that.

And trump can fix the above problems? How, he couldn’t even get Mexico to build a wall. Seriously, who are you supporting for prez?

You did objectively horrible.

First, can you really look at trump and go “that is someone that appreciates knowledge and wisdom.”

Second, conservatives do not appreciate knowledge and wisdom. The current speaker of the house has positive views of creationism.

https://www.huffpost.com/...dc81e4b0d69ae7068a0b

Does that sound like some that appreciates knowledge and wisdom.

Third, if conservatives appreciate wisdom and knowledge from people in the past, it is clearly a cherry picked group of people and then actively ignored others.

So yes, your definition is not accurate.

Trump can't fix anything, he is team chaos.

Trump, and the GOP, want chaos at the border.....which is why they killed the strongest border security bill in a generation.

Biden inherited chaos from Trump. He has brought inflation down from 9.06% to 3.15%. He turned Trump's 14% unemployment to todays 3.8%. Lowered gas prices by $1.70 per gallon. Turned Trump's flaccid economy into the best economy in the world. *

Today's GOP hates it when America does well.

*The reality is the President has limited direct control over the economy.

In this sense the Trump team has been spectacular - by suggesting comedic hypotheticals over the actual details of the case against Trump - - - they've given the conservative Trump loving Justices an out . . . they don't have to listen to the Trump case specifics, they can entertain hypotheticals, and can suggest many long extended procedures on what constitutes personal vs official acts, and where immunity applies and does not.

It’s an embarrassment.

I honestly wish JSA were here to opine. But he probably too embarrassed to chime in.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

If your and Nutella's critiques hadn't equated Trump with conservatism, I might have taken them more seriously.

I did not equate Trump with Conservatism, I pointed out fact that Trump represents nothing that is traditionally Conservative.......but the majority of Americans who claim to be Conservative blindly support him.

So conservatives think trump should be president, but he is not conservative?

So even conservatives don’t want a conservative in charge?

Conservatives just want to be in charge. Period. None of the rest matters. Trump could be a communist. They don’t give a shit as long as they have power.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

As a never-Trumper, I don't get his continuing appeal. It seems to be all about power.

I am paying $5.39 for a gallon of regular gas.

Here's what my UK friend said: if this passes you will have a King. Why didn't you keep the first one and saved yourself the trouble?

For the politicians? Yes.
For their benefactors? Yes.
For their voters?

They are pretty simple: Guns, God, Greed, and Bigotry (though in the last 4 years I'd replace bigotry with anti-woke. There is a difference).

Trump could eat kittens provided that he's on the same page with the above 4 issues.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

That isn’t a Biden thing.

I'm paying $3.31, Biden must just hate California.

So move out of Cali. My left leaning ass in Texas paid $3/gallon for regular yesterday.

You should move. I am paying $2.90 a gallon.

your asterisk is pretty important there.

The overwhelming majority of potential Trump voters live outside of California and are probably paying in the ballpark of $3.50 per gallon. I’m not sure who he’s reaching with that bullshit.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Yup. When Republicans push the talking point that the President controls gas, baby food, and egg prices it only confirms their economic illiteracy.

The Trump folks have some delusions of how they might be able to influence the economy for political gain.
Trump Allies Draw Up Plans to Blunt Fed’s Independence - WSJ


I think we can all agree this is batshit crazy.

Totally

the oil prices are a global thing and not something that the government have complete control over... there may be policies that can cause some adjustment like reducing the strategic reserve but in the end this is caused by global uncertainty and demand, so blaming it on the government is rather strange but common.

It’s not crazy because it happens in other countries. Many presidents want more monetary control. President Erdogan of Turkey put patsies in the CBRT and forced interests rates down to very negative real rates, and it nearly sunk the economy. He has since relented and allowed saner people to run monetary policy, and things have improved somewhat (though many challenges remain). There is an ongoing spat between the government and central bank in Thailand. Poland’s former Law and Justice Party had heavy influence over its central bank governor Adam Glapinksi (who slashed interest rates last Sept and Oct in the run up to elections), and Poland’s new PM Donald Tusk is now pushing back to get the NBP back to independence. Other countries have done stellar work to ensure central bank independence, including Brazil in recent years through legislation.

The question is whether we want this country to remain one of the standard bearers for sound economic policy, or become a tin pot nation with a wannabe dictator who has control of every aspect of running the country, much for his own personal interests.

30 or so years ago, I was told that the parties essentially were:

1) democrats = dreamers, wanted to do the impossible.
2) conservatives = realists, had to be the adults in the room.

I dont think this is the case anymore.

Yeah - certainly this wave of Republican are NOT grown-ups.

In fact, they have gone to great efforts to purge all of the grown-ups from their party.

Fixed it for you.

Republicans are just as fine with Donald Trump as they were with Ronald Regan, as long they can get their agenda passed.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

We are paying $3.10 NZD per liter. That's $11.72 per gallon.

Out of curiosity, what type of vehicle do you drive?

So where is everyone on this immunity deal?

Have we seen enough to know the SC will either carve out some immunity to apply to Trumps specific actions in this case, or that they will send it back to the lower court, who will make a ruling sometime after the election, thereby making this case a waste of time as it relates to the election?

The average price in the Netherlands Monday was €2.088/L. €7.90/US G, $8.44/g US (NL is most expensive in Europe, but you're maybe saving 0.10/L crossing into Germany or Belgium)

time to buy a motorcycle over there. Ducati makes nice bikes, Yamaha and Honda are very reliable.

IDK.

All I know for certain is Teflon Don will wiggle his way out of all of this and come very close to winning the election in November.

If America had a king it would likely be a constitutional monarchy a la Canada or Britain.. The president is however American royalty with most of the trappings. Trump would like a crown though.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I handicap it as the immunity deal is provided so the insurrection case goes away.

I am certain he will be convicted in the NY case that is going on right now, but don't think punishment will be much.

Georgia case wont' get going in time to bother election.

Florida case goes nowhere before election.

Trump loses the election as he goes into election night with a big lead, but then overnight he loses the lead and Biden comes out victorious the next morning.

Side note: We may see another summer full of riots and encampments, perhaps Autonomous zones, due to the Anti-Jewish protests and mail in balloting becomes all the rage again as folks claim they are scared to leave their homes.


My bail out plan to move to the islands may need to be moved up a few years.

A millennium after the Magna Carta and we still can't get it figured out.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Not so sure about that. Canada-Britain has a distinct head of state separate from the monarchy, and I believe that head of state holds most actual "chief executive power." And that head of state is subject to all manner of bureaucratic restrictions and checks on power. (I sense windywave trembling in disagreement over his loverboy Trudeau).

In the U.S., an untouchable President would be sort of both rolled into one. Both the statutory head of state and a grand poobah not subject to almost any checks or laws. Just maybe impeachment.

What does the price of gas/tea in China have to do with presidential immunity?

GL 550.

Nutella said, Biden has "Lowered gas prices by $1.70 per gallon".

The price of gas in my area has gone up.

Well, shoot.

I mean, No! Wrong colloquialism.

What do you think about granting a President the power to use the military to illegally snatch away everyone's guns as an official act of office, and then not allowing that President to be prosecuted for it? Maybe you'd trust President Trump with that freedom. Would you trust the next President after Trump's 2nd term?

Would you trust that impeachment would do the trick, with the 2/3 Senate requirement for conviction?

Remember that the FBI/ Justice Department could do nothing while that President were in power. We've already established that a President cannot be prosecuted while in office.

I am absolutely astonished at the some of the "conservative" justices going into full pretzel logic to shit on fundamental conservative principles.

I remember back in the Obama administration all the crazy fears about Obama collaborating with the UN to not leave office and take everyone's guns. A few current SCOTUS justices, "Let's grant the President the freedom to actually attempt or even accomplish all that crazy stuff with no accountability whatsover, except maybe impeachment. And if he's impeached he's free to go...no criminal prosecution."

He started it? Is that what you’re saying? JFC. As a mom, I recognize this— my kids outgrew saying that nonsense years ago.

The bullshit needs to stop.

If you have any sense of honor or patriotism, you would agree that the Trump nonsense needs to stop. We can fight about our issues (gas prices or guns or abortions) later. It’s time to clearly & unequivocally reject authoritarianism.

The 2nd Amendment exists to stop a President from taking guns from the citizens.

He might get away with it for a short amount of time, but eventually the people will respond and stop it.

Precisely. It is a law. This case is about being able to prosecute the President for breaking law.




So we're saying that the justice system should be not be used to hold Presidents accountable for following law. Instead, the first line of defense should be something between civil unrest and full revolution. This is what I mean by pretzel logic.

Also the President is in charge of the military. Better hope the military doesn't go along. Or else "the people" are going to be in for a world of shit. It's no longer 1776, when bands of quickly-trained people were an effect insurgent force against an organized military. Take a look at Hamas vs. the IDF. The insurgent side ain't doing well.

I believe you're a fan of reading the Constitution in the context of how life was lived when it was written. The view of the role of the President when the Constitution was written was very much not one that viewed the job as an untouchable, all-powerful executive. Just the opposite, the view was the President to have limited, constrained power, held under check by law and process. Most power going to the states, the President only having enumerated Federal powers....a contrast to the power excesses of the monarchy being ejected from U.S. soil. This is an idea championed by conservatives. Why are conservatives suddenly recoiling from that idea?

I predict that they will reject Trump's argument for absolute immunity and reject Jack Smith's argument for no immunity. Instead, they will conclude that, like the President's immunity from civil lawsuits, the President has absolute immunity from criminal lawsuits for acts falling within the "outer perimeter" of the president's official responsibilities. Then, remand to the lower court to apply that standard to the facts of this case.

I’m disheartened and also a little pissed at conspiracy-minded people.

Members of SCOTUS are giving serious consideration to conspiracy theories about wrongful prosecution. News flash: if a conspiracy of wrongful prosecution hasn’t been a problem for presidents before (it wasn’t), it isn’t a problem now. We’ll cross that bridge if/when we get to it.

We have facts which provide clear & convincing evidence of a president inciting violence to prevent the peaceful transfer of power.

Trump Conspiracy theory v. Facts

Please remember that dim@beyond is the Simple Jack of Rain Men.

So you are concerned with the price of gas driving a Mercedes that gets 12-13 miles to the gallon in the city and still only 17-18 on the highway. Ok.

Nutella said that the price of gas went down $1.70 per gallon.

The price of gas where I live has gone up quite a bit to $5.39 per gallon.

I am simply refuting his assertion.

The price of gas doesn't affect my life.

"Outer perimeter" sounds impossibly subjective and vague. But I secretly hope this happens because I want to see the Trump team argue that the Executive Branching participating in a peaceful, legal transfer of power was very much on the outer perimeter of their concerns. :)

Except that if trump took them away, MAGA would hand them over freely and then thank god that they didn't live in California where their gun rights are limited.

It'd go down like this: join Trump militia or turn in your guns. And they would.

It did
U.S. Regular All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon) (eia.gov)
June 2022 $4.929
January 2024 $3.075

Now back on topic. Do you believe any President, not just Trump, should be immune from prosecution for criminal acts he committed while in office?

Where the hell do you live. I’ve been paying anywhere between 3.29 and 3.89 for over 4 years.

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_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

It was interesting that Trump's lawyer admitted that at least three of the acts he is charged with were private, not public, acts. I was a bit stunned by that.

I live in Mountain View.

This was in Menlo Park a few days ago:

https://kion546.com/...ghest-in-california/

Why do you do this? You take the highest point and the lowest point and then quote that. Did it technically happen? Yes. But those are dates that no one would pick except that they are the lowest and highest prices. It now throws the rest of your argument into doubt because you cherry picked data for this one.

And yes, like Jim I have been also paying over $5 for gas for a couple years. I don't blame Biden for it, but it is a fact.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

My point was clear, gas prices have dropped significantly since their short-term peak. Biden does not control them, or much else, in the economy.

Now back on topic. Do you agree with Kavanaugh when he says that pardoning Nixon was "one of the better decisions in presidential history"? If the President has "absolute immunity" why would Nixon need a pardon?

So the 2nd amendment exists to stop a president from taking guns from citizens?

That may just be the dumbest reason for an amendment.

So if the 2nd amendment didn’t exist, people would willingly give up their guns. But since it exists, people are willing to murder law enforcement to keep them.

Why exactly does its existence lead to the murdering? Wouldn’t they murder anyway?

No your point was not clear.

Biden inherited chaos from Trump. He has brought inflation down from 9.06% to 3.15%. He turned Trump's 14% unemployment to todays 3.8%. Lowered gas prices by $1.70 per gallon. Turned Trump's flaccid economy into the best economy in the world. *


That was what you said, it talked about Trump and nothing about the short term peak which was well after Trump left office.


As for Kavanaugh's statement I have no idea why you are asking me about that since I can't remember ever posting about Kavanaugh, Nixon, or this case.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

Sorry I was not more clear.

When I hear the "Biden raised gas prices" talking point I think of mid 2022 when the GOP was spewing this lie nonstop. They put "I did that" stickers on gas pumps, made the rounds on TV news shows, and wrote bad faith opinion pieces pushing the lie that the spike was Biden's fault. The same folks who slapped those "I did that" stickers on gas pumps were silent as gas steadily dropped $1.70 a gallon in 6 months.

The reason I asked about Kavanaugh and Nixon was to try to get this thread back on topic..... it was one of the more bizarre parts of yesterdays hearing

Kavanaugh says ‘most people’ now revere the Nixon pardon. Not so fast. - The Washington Post

I think that is about where they will land, perhaps with a caveat. A judge has immunity for any decision they issue. But, a judge has no immunity for taking a bribe, even though the bribe is related to how they carry out their official duties (issuing a decision). I would think Presidential immunity follows a similar path.

Anyone that bitches about gas prices is a financial moron. Sucks to suck. Get your financial shit together and stop blaming the White House.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I live in Mountain View, drive a GL 550, and the price of gas doesn't affect me at all.

Or a judge can have the state kill someone but can't murder someone.

"can sound very smart and somewhat convincing" to dummies (fixed it for you)

If your position is "bullshit" any intelligent person is going to see (or just smell it) through packaging.
In my experience the more elaborate the explanation the more likely it isn't true or accurate. Something about Occam's razor.

Or the old saying, "when the law is against you, argue the facts, when the facts are against you, argue the law". When both are against you, find lawyers who have worked for Trump they have experience in this area.

Who came up with judicial immunity? Was it judges? Must be nice to be a judge.

That is such a terrible news article. Shouldn’t the story be, “Why is this gas station charging $2 more per gallon than stations 1 mile away.” Isn’t that the actually interesting story here to investigate?

They are charging more because the people that live/work near there don't care how much gas costs.

Yes. Here is an example where a judge was held immune from criminal prosecution for actions taken as a judge. The decision is not relying upon some statute or Constitutional provision creating the immunity.

https://casetext.com/...ommonwealth-v-tartar

Probably shouldn’t have a system that allows this. Since they clearly have a bias in this.

If they want immunity, they can advocate for the legislation to implement it.