all I ever do is pace-shame myself. this is why I don't run anymore. I couldn't handle all of the negative pace shaming.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

As much as cyclists have egos about passing/being passed on rides, runners do as well. So I can understand that "pace shame" would exist as a thing.

For me 8:30 on my really hilly route is blistering fast for a run. Recently had the only dude I come across on both runs on different nights turn it into a 1/2mi race for the parts of our runs that overlapped.

Dude, OK. Enjoy yourself. I'm a cyclist that can barely run. Go for it.

No shame in running slower, even if you're a fast runner.

For me, the hardest part of adapting to a "run slow to a run fast" or 80/20 approach was showing a slower overall time on Strava. I quickly got over myself, but the thought was there.

Yeah, one thing you absolutely have to do if you're making the move to becoming a significantly faster runner through higher mileage training, is that you have to check your ego at the door big time.

When I was running 1:25 half marathons and low 18s 5ks as a pure marathon runner with 80+mpw, I'd sometimes be running 11 minutes per mile on recovery runs by the tail end of the week because I was so beatdown by the volume and speedwork. At one point, when I was doing a recovery 6miler on a track in LA at night, I was getting dusted by 5 year olds who would repeatedly sprint past me. Amazingly as well, I wasn't just dogging it to make myself look bad - that was my natural pace on recovery days since the other days were so hard.

Forget about the swimmer approach where you're constantly shooting to hit better and better times for the interval sets that occur every day. In running, there's some REALLY hard stuff but it only happens a small fraction of the week. The rest is surprisingly slow.

Me too. I've been trying to convince myself to "run" for the last couple days. It hasn't happened yet.

We have a local half marathon that goes by my house at about mile 11. I was in the middle of catching and passing a guy who has been running alone for at least half a mile when we passed my house. My wife and kids are in the front yard and scream out "Run faster, you are embarrassing us!". I shrug and reply "I know, I am sorry" and drop the guy. Probably didn't give him a real confidence boost for those last two miles.

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------------------------------
The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

Even if the word exists (and, it likely does now so you should call the copyright office), I don't think what you were doing is pace shaming. You were encouraging someone to give a little more. As opposed to shaming, which is a version of mocking/ bulling.

---

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Absolutely, you can't go hard running all the time and many very strong runners are logging much of their mileage at speeds far below what they would race a marathon in.

It's fun following local elite athletes on Strava and seeing how they train. One mid-2:20s marathoner (~5:35/mile) logged ~120 miles/week in a marathon training cycle last fall, typically on average at ~7:45/mile, lots of hills. Another faster (OTQ, sub-2:17 marathoner) guy caps near 100 mpw but runs on average much faster and flatter (average ~6:40/mile). Both are running their easy days 2 minutes per mile or ~40% slower than marathon pace.

Lots of approaches can be successful -- so long as they are not the swim or bike mentality of hammer every day.

To the OP -- was the run on the track supposed to be fast?? Because in that case, pace-shaming is acceptable ;)

Funny, when I pace shame my athletes it’s to make them run slower, not faster.

<shrug>

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Firstly, way too much data in that post

Secondly, no; we've just been meeting up with our friends from the gym at the HS track to do whatever working out we feel, since our gym still isn't open yet

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I guess that would be like telling a "skinny" person to "have a sandwich"

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

what’s a D’Kid?

---

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I was doing "speed work" last Friday and thinking about this. All my PR's in running happened in the 80's and 90's. Now at nearly 60 my 400 repeats are slower than my average mile pace on an easy 5 mile run was 25 years ago.

We get old, we get injured, and life takes turns that we didn't expect, but at least we are still running, biking, and swimming, which puts us way ahead of the average person (at least in the US).

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

My paces are a shame . .

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Guys who haven't even everested were chirping me because my eversting took 17.5 hours. Not to mention it was on a busy road and I had to do 243 laps.

Well, surprisingly slow for you and I, at least. In trying to explain this to my wife (who has returned to running after a hiatus), my explanation of my polarized paces and how to train this way seems to come back "vary your stupidly fast paces" and "mortals don't train that way, do they?"

Are you in your 60+? Shouldn't be that much of a dropoff before that even for 25 year differential. I'm 25+ years from my 18 yr old self, and sure, while I never really 'maxxed' my run training in x-country HS, I'm faster now than I was back then, despite being 20 lbs heavier. I don't think I'll hit my age 30 maxxed PRs (done on up to 100mpw running) but it's not a matter of age there, it's a matter of lack of run-specific training.

There is.
And I think both you and I are on the cusp age wise of where things do start to drop off...
Fun times ahead!

There isn't. Look up the WAVA age-graded results for running, or any endurance sport, for that matter. There isn't a huge dropoff until the 60+ age range. At 40-50, the dropoff is small enough that you can likely outperform your younger self with superior training unless you were training at pro/elite level at age 18-30.

But he is almost 60....so reaching that tipping point...

Doh, yeah. You're allowed to slow down some at age 60!

I'm quite comfortable with running slow and steady, and being passed.

It's only when I am doing intervals when I pass a runner, then they will pass me on the recovery interval, that I feel like I am passing them just for ego purposes.

Anyone?

I googled this word and it doesn’t exist.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I ran my first marathon not long after turning 19. I was still training at full mileage for an ultra 29 years later, having experienced few significant injuries over the years.

Shortly after that ultra in 2012, at 48 I realised I had run my ultra swansong. At least as far as approaching training and racing at a competitive attitude. Years of mileage inevitably took it's toll on my left knee> It was obvious that if I wanted to be active with running and hiking for years to come, it was time to scale back my training mileage, length of races, ambitions and distances on hard services.

After 50, circumstances and ability may change suddenly. Susceptibility to injuries, flexibility, overuse all have a potential to exacerbate the natural loss of speed attributable to simply being another year older.

Cherish you're speed while you have it. You don't when or how rapidly it may be compromised.

These days, I'm learning to accept that ParkRun will be at around my old 100km PR pace.

Age graded results reflect the best performances of talented runners who can still train at a relatively optimum level. We've all known the exceptional runners, men in their 60s or women in their 50s running sub 3 hour marathons. They are, by definition, the exceptions upon which results are indexed.

The ability to train and race as effectively as the top veteran runners isn't matched by many of us. Age-graded stats do not represent an accurate linear decline for many, possibly most, of us. Particularly so for a weight-bearing sport like running.

I'll agree with that. Arthritis and disease doesn't get factored into the attrition rate when using wava tables.

But if you are not hobbled by one of those things and can train well, it's a good guideline for expectations.

And it's a better metric to monitor recent improvements and current fitness, rather than lamenting over comparisons to antiquated PRs.

:-(

If you hung out in the LR you would know that this is a RandMart-ism referring to his offspring.

Not that anyone should hang out in the LR, but those who do, pick up on esoterica that even G**gl* miss.

Oh ok - thanks for the update - it was really bugging me - I couldn't figure it out!

I'm in the LR sometimes ... not often enough though it seems :)

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Is she also against the pity clap? There is nothing more soul sucking than the pity clap.I have been fortunate to only find myself at the wrong end of the clap a handful of times but I would have rathered people yelled SHAME SHAME SHAME!!.

I think the worst occasion was at the end of a marathon where I had hit the wall and then fallen off a cliff. I was just trying to get to the finish so I could get my stuff and move past the race altogether and was subjected to the clap. It was a firm reminder of how brutal endurance racing can be.

Totally get that. I deleted Strava in order to do my easy runs really easy and don't be tempted to fall into the "medium-pace" kinda effort. It worked.

I also think Strava in general is just an app for showing off because why would anyone else be interested in sharing their workouts.. but yeah, that's just a personal side note ;)

Yeah, sorry I didn’t get back to you

D’Kid & D’Wife are collectively known as D’Girls

I simply never was into the DH/DW/DD scene when referring to family online [where D=darling, devoted, etc.] and Barney Rubble would always say “Hey Fred!!! D’Wives!!!” or “Hey Fred!!! D’Girls!!!” when they were about to get busted for some sort of nonsense, so I grabbed on to that

****

ETA: I use it over on this side too!

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...=post_time&mh=25

"Your search for d'kid in posts made by randmart returned 1072 results"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I thought - or the way I've seen it used, anyway - it the exact opposite of that; that is, as a tool to say "I don't suck as bad as I think I do"

YMMV

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Did you just "Pace-Shame" me?

It isn't just age that gets you. Old injuries from your youth will start causing problems. My work now requires long hours and frequent business trips. All I was trying to say in my post was everyone has their own challenges when it comes to running fast (or biking or swimming fast) and that no one that is still making an effort should be discounted because the vast majority of Americans are making almost 0 effort.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I would say "no" on that ... We volunteer at one of the last Rest Stops on the MS Bike Tour every year - ride on Saturday/tent on Sunday - and she's seen the very last riders + the Broom Wagon come & go through our tent ["The Tail of the Draggin'"], so she's seen suffering up close. She always gives them plenty of encouragement, good cheer, and "Great job!!!"


On our first MS Bike Tour [75 miles] we finished so late the DJ was gone, the hype music was silent, and the only "fans" were the folks who lived in the beach houses along the last mile or so; a couple cowbells, some sparse applause

It didn't really matter by then; all I wanted was a beer & some Boardwalk pizza

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I think you, I and Lightheir (to whom I initially replied) are in basic agreement. That being the age-graded index is a good tool for us oldies to measure and assess our current performances.

We're doing a "Run-draiser" at work for the Food Bank of South Jersey, where our mileage determines the $$$ donated [some people are athletes, some are sponsors] and we're to use Starva, NIKE+, or some other app for accountability - submit mileage and screenshot of weekly results

Granted, even that can be fudged, but it would be a First Circle of Hell violation

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Haha.. I've never seen these violations.Well.. is it First Circle of Hell when you're fudging your training log to do something good?

At one point during an IM I was passed by a guy at least 30 years older then me who only had one leg.

Shit happens. The thing I like about these races is while we are all racing at the same time we are all really racing against ourselves and locked in our own internal battle. What someone else is experiencing doesn't really impact me to much, it might give me a laugh or look on in awe, then, pack to my personal suffering.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Oh! D'Wife would always make note of the old guy who beat me ["... wearing hunting socks" sticks out in my mind], the old woman who beat me, little kid that beat me

I ran a HM on my birthday - Halloween 2015 - and I got beaten by a few Darth Vaders, a few Princess Leias, all The Avengers, Batman, Catwoman, The Dude [in a bathrobe and carrying a quart of milk], Walter White, Sponge Bob, a slice of pizza, and the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man

In an unrelated incident, I got beaten by a Dunkin Donuts cup

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

IMO, there's WAY more to the social appeal of Strava than just vanity. There's enjoyment and pride at the progress and good workouts/races of friends, the voyeuristic appeal and awe of following training by strong athletes who are out of your league, friendly competition among peers (or rivals), ability to share or sympathize with training injuries or setbacks and subsequent recovery, pragmatic aspects of sharing experience of running or riding in the same places (e.g., I've gotten shout-outs for snow/ice reports on common run routes in winter), and keeping in touch with fellow athletes who you used to train with but have since moved away (or have become socially-distanced from!).

But these are all network benefits and depend on having a tribe of like-minded friends on Strava who value the same things that you do. Some clubs default to a leaderboard-centered competitive/vain culture, others are very different.

Yeah I’ve not ever been a fast enough runner to be pace-shamed for not going faster. I’m jogging my jog, training my training, completing my race/event/virtual event...all that jazz. So y’all speedsters of all stripes enjoy that awesomeness- it’s not for me. I admire it, even if I do not aspire to it.

I saw where trump was pace shamed when he went down that ramp at West Point last week. but he did make up for it by running the last 10 feet.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

He's been drink-shamed lately, too, because he needs two hands to use a small water glass

Yet there are some of us here who can't drink from a plastic cup while moving faster than a walk or they splash all over themselves

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Funny story. Maybe related to the thread.

Around 10 years ago, we were doing a Ragnar Relay in Southern California where we had to run to San Diego. One of our runners was a young and fairly fast guy. He was 33-35 ish minute 10K runner in college and he was doing his last 13 mile (?) running leg. He couldn't run past this woman. He would get up right behind her and she would give a smile and started to run really fast and then slow down. She would run, an estimate 8:30 min/mile pace to let him catch up and then started running well below 6:30 min/mile then slow down again . The guy kept saying he couldn't catch her after he was finished and he pointed at the woman.

I recognized her and later messaged him online "Remember this person at ragnar? Her name is Helle Frederiksen, she's an itu triathlete and is training to compete in the olympics." He was floored.

this took me the entire corona shut down to get used to now aside from the strava squirmish im loving it

I think it's more appropriate for the "How hard would you go NOT to 'get chicked?'" thread

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...Sexist%3F!_P5118311/

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

At 65 I'm way past feeling bad about getting chicked. However I still dread the possibility of being "granny chicked" by a lady near my age.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Let's shorten that to "Granny'd" shall we? Although some women in that AG can be kinda GILF-y

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

That's hilarious!

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

"Paceshaming" is a word and this quote is the definition. Wow, a 43 year old telling a 60 year old "you too slow.". D'Kid, whoever she is, would light you up and you would deserve it.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

My daughter is a Senior in college and is the head of her schools cycling club. She lives with a bunch of cross country skiers and runners. They refer nonchalantly to other students and people in their school as “NARPS” which apparently stands for Non Athletic Regular Person.

Good to see NARPs is still in use, been almost ten years since I left college lol.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

LOL Zombie thread alert!

You also missed point of my thread which isn't about absolute pace, but the WAVA-adjusted realities of potential pace slowdowns as well as the followup reply about yeah, things to get slower in that range at age 60!

"Zombie Thread?" Dr. Tigerchik posted after only a two & a half month hiatus

That's barely dead, and even if it was so, it's still warm

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I must've missed that post, or I would've replied with ...


I apologize for my oversight

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Classic. I still have the Running magazine issue in which the HST article on the Honolulu Marathon was originally published.

I first encountered pace shaming while running my first marathon at age 19. I had trained sporadically for a couple of months before the marathon. I had read Tom Osler's book which was popular at the time ('78) which suggested walking breaks during training. This was before Galloway's books.

I planned to stop to walk for 5 minutes every 3 miles as I'd been doing on my long runs in training. The 3 mile mark of the course was in a seedy area of downtown Cleveland and when I started to walk a bum (a common term in the '70s) yelled at me for walking so soon. I immediately started running again and changed my strategy to slowing the pace but not stopping again to walk. Of course, I'm guessing I've ended up walking at some point in the majority of my nearly 40 marathons (including IMs).

YES! Which became The Curse Of Lono

Were the Steadman illustrations in there too?

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Some years ago - nevermind how long precisely - I was on my way back to the house part of my run; about half a mile to go. It was just after 6AM. I stopped at the red light to cross the highway

A big, loud pickup truck pulled up next to me as I was waiting. A work truck with side compartments rattling and the smell of diesel, and coffee & donuts

Please note: I was NOT jogging in place*

"Run, pussy!" the guy in the passenger seat said to me, with an accompanying chuckle from the driver ["heh-heh, good one!"]

Just at that moment - like a gift from God - an attractive young woman whom I know from church crossed in front of the truck

"Hi, Randy!" she called as she smiled and waved to me, her ponytail bouncing joyfully in the morning sun

I turned, looked back at the truck and replied - in a language the contractors would understand - "I run FOR pussy!!!" as I ran off for an extra loop with my friend



* Some years later - I got around to making stickers to put on all the streetlight poles in town

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Ditto, my own worst critic!

I saw more than one meme yesterday, as a matter of fact, saying something like: "'Forward' is a Pace"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Whenever I come in a little slower than I planned, I just say "That wasn't so bad. You can do better tomorrow"

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Cyclocross has the best shaming.

Dude definitely brought note cards with him

< shuffles cards >

This one looks good

< screams >

"Beat these sea-level people!!!"

< tosses card >


****


Loved the pass, and the echo that went with it ... thoroughly underscored that Rob's race was well over ... Rob's no quitter, though

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

cmart

I also deleted Strava! I had had it with the 'showing off' and being one-upped (or maybe it was my perception...) by other athletes that I knew were not that fast. There is a way to change your workouts in Garmin and/or Strava so they look better. I wasn't going to resort to that so I just deleted the app and my account all together. It has been refreshing to not worry about how my workouts look on Strava! Not to mention the lack of privacy on Strava, etc.....

Hard to beat that story. :)

Yes, there were Steadman illustrations including a full front cover.

Yep, I was gonna put those guys in as well!!!

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

When I was down the shore last month, I found STRAVA to be incredibly inaccurate where GPS/Wifi is sketchy; there was no fucking way I ran that mile in 5-minutes-and-something

I know my local routes, and when I should be hitting my markers [with and WITHOUT waiting for stoplights] and what makes a good day or a not so good day

I generally only use STRAVA now to map out our slow AF family bike rides for all to see where we've been that day; or if I go exploring on a run, which usually includes stopping for pix, which skews my pace from slow-ish to slower

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Well if you track your run with your watch, a file with GPS data is created by the watch. Strava only uses this file. So it can't be more or less accurate than what has been tracked by the watch

Same with the Strava app on my phone? Because the map it generated said I was zipping across the street and running down alleys & such at incredible speed?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Well, if you track with the watch and also with your phone, both devices might track differently. There's quite a variance with gps accuracy between devices

Nah, no GPS watch
Also, no power meters
Nor indoor trainer
Nor treadmill

Nor PowerDot, TheraGun, nor any other of the dozens of devices people seem to NEED to train with

New thread, perhaps? "Tech-Shaming?"


Judge Smails : Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb : Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails : Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb : By height.

In which case, I score fairly low

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin