2017 race somewhere between 3 hours and 1 day I believe. I signed up 3 hours after registration opened.

There was a year it didn’t make it to online registration. All sold out on site for volunteers, etc. before 12PM.

This year's 2018 registration filled up in about 7 hours

Has registration date changed? I remember it used to open online the day after the race, but I hear that it might be different?

Last year the race was on November 19th, and I registered online November 26th. Although I might have received early registration because I was a participant in 2017.

Thanks! I signed up for email list- hoping I’ll see it in time before it sells out.

tie3 wrote:

There was a year it didn’t make it to online registration. All sold out on site for volunteers, etc. before 12PM.

https://www.endurancebusiness.com/2014/industry-news/on-site-a-go-go-ironman-arizona-enjoys-fastest-sell-out-in-us-history/

It's difficult to compare any prior years before 2017/2018 when they began doing online priority registration for AWA & clubs. Prior to that, the only priority was for volunteers and current year racers on the spot. Of course, with IMs in general much, much less popular in the US than it was 4+ years ago, you'll probably be alright for general registration (albeit at tier 4, 3 if you're lucky) within a few days of it opening. I think this is still the only race that sells out rather quickly, but not fast enough that you need to sign up the instant it opens.

My advice: If you aren't AWA (nor do you need to be...), join a registered triclub and make sure they get the registration link, typically handled by membership person or president.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Another good option is SmileTrain charity who has slots avail already for 2019- great cause to motivate a full year of training: https://www.smiletrain.org/...d/team-empower/races. Fundraising commitment varies based on whether or not you elect coaching provided by Qt2. They have a great set up at the start line with private breakfast/bathroom access/etc. Highly recommend!

How does one find a list of registered tri clubs in my area? I like the idea of joining a club to get the link....

Check the IM Arizona website, I think under the results tab they have a list of all the clubs. DOn't know if they break it down by region though.

It’s still open.

ya... so is MFL. And that one sold out in minutes too.... years ago.

How did the mass start work use to work at IMAZ? I just can't imagine how they got 3000 people going in at the same time...

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What's your CdA?

It worked out great when they did that. We all waited in the lake behind the buoys, spread all the way across. I positioned myself towards the back middle, fast swimmers in the front. That being said our time was all the same so I lost time being where I was at. The rolling start now I had a quicker time than back then.

Sorry but there is no way that the mass start is responsible for this not selling out as fast... The numbers for WTC are simple and transparent, thanks to the Obsessed Ironman:

https://www.obstri.com/?stats=1

In the Americas, participation in IM (specifically IM, not 70.3) is down since its peak in 2015. And this includes stats from South America where participation has been growing since 2015 so it is likely skewing the fact that NA is declining even more.

Just as there at <10% of participants caring about KQ, there are likely equally as few wanting a mass start swim.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

They all started at the same time and it was awesome. It was part of the experience.

The start used to be a deep water start. Prior to the start everyone made their way down the stairs and swam to the start line. Seeding themselves according to ability, and delusions of grandeur. Everyone had to tread water for a while, then the gun went off, and the race started. Simple as that.

That's ancient history and IMFL is no longer in the same league as IMAZ when it comes on time to sell out. E.g., IMFL 2018 sold out in July 2018. I would not expect any sooner for 2019.

I agree with you. Correlation is not causation and more people prefer a rolling start to a mass start. And for the record I did IMAZ in 2010. I haven't been able to figure out yet whether the same people on ST who complain about drafting are those who want a return to the main start (a freaking paradox) or whether it is the drafters themselves who would like to go back to the mass start which compresses the field on the bike course making drafting easier.

Regardless, the lengthening sell-out period for IMAZ suggests that we (North America) have not yet reached the bottom in IM participation.

As an expert swimmer, I nearly drowned in the mass scrum start of IMAZ. No race is worth that kind of drama and it definitely dissuades people from open water swimming or continuing in triathlon.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

I wouldn't necessarily agree that participation in Ironman races among folks living in the Americas are down. The number of athletes racing in North American Ironmans may be down, but that doesn't mean that there are fewer people living in the Americas doing Ironman races.

With the addition of races outside of the Americas, people who typically do races in the Americas are going overseas for their races. I am one such athlete. Over the past 6 years, I've done 2 races in North America and 4 overseas. The five years prior to that, all 5 of my Ironmans were done in North America.

Europeans who, in the past, would come to the U.S to do Ironman races are now staying home in the continent to do Ironman races since there are now more options available to them.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

The word you're looking for is Ruck, a mass ruck start. Scrums are a process and heavily controlled forms of restarts.

To the OP...wtf, I saw this on a Facebook group this morning. So general registration opened yesterday, it was at Tier 4. To me that's actually bad form for folks newer to the sport when they're waiting watching the tiers fill up because they weren't smart enough to associate their account with a tri club so they could get the pre-registration password. IMAZ has as many people on the Start list as Kona and the bike is three laps...it's local to me and I'm interested but if I was new to this $825 would be a turnoff for me.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

A side from IMAZ that correlates well with the Mass start or lack of. Try

Ironman Coeur D'Alene
Year finishers
2017 837 (the last year IM offered)
2016 1150
2015 1331
2014 1944
2013 2122 (1st year of rolling start)
2012 2142
2011 2188
2010 2095
2009 2033
2008 1942
2007 2085

----------------------

I bet that if they offered this race with the mass start... it would sell out.

Scrum is a perfect description of a mass start. See Merriam-Webster dictionary definitions apart from Rugby:


: a usually brief and disorderly struggle or fight : SCRAPE, SCUFFLE

: a usually tightly packed or disorderly crowd : THRONG

Which are not the true definitions of a scrum...as the resident Rugby Nerd, scrums are not disorderly, in fact they're very controlled.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I could just as easily postulate that the IMCDA decline correlated with the start of IM Whistler in 2014 which was closer to Seattle/Vancouver triathletes - the closest metro area to IMCDA. And the plummet also correlated with the shift of IMCDA to August in 2016.

Yea, I sure miss those......IMAZ, IMWI, IMFL, IM Kona...... The scrum was part of the fun; sometimes fun, others ugly but always pretty damn cool. Today's races seem anticlimactic, especially Kona with the multiple starts.

---

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

I would take that bet and put a large amount on it.

Your argument is that the rugby use of the word scrum is the only valid definition, and that informal and more widely accepted definitions are improper; without even getting into the software development definition of scrum. Go ahead and use ruck if you like, it won't make sense to the majority of people. Meanwhile, I do not miss the mass scrum starts.

Edit. Scrum comes from scrummage which originated from scrimmage. The original definition is in sync with the popular interpretation.

scrimmage (n.)
sometimes also scrummage, late 15c., alteration of skirmish (n.). Meaning in rugby and U.S. football dates from 1857, originally "a confused struggle between players."

That's great, but the Scrum is a process. That's why there's a scrum methodology in project management: because it's organized and not chaos as the dictionary would attempt to make some believe.

Scrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrzQDwEE0k

Ruck/Breakdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6IwlFfLmU


And yet both are nothing like a mass open water start.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Don't even need to touch the CdA piece since that got shot down by HuffnPuff.

As for this, I am not sure why it matters who is actually participating in IMs, when the US contributes 80% of the participants at IMAZ (also easily found stats using the google machine), you're saying what, that US people want swims with mass starts? FYI- here are the US contributions to participation at IMAZ for the last 6 years

2018 - 80%
2017 - 82%
2016 - 86%
2015 - 88%
2014 - 85%
2013 - 88%

Not sure why I bothered to look this up as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion... but there it is. More foreign participation in IMAZ over the last two years than before but not that drastic of a difference to even really come to a conclusion.

Here are some facts for a conclusion...
Fact: WTC IM participation (doesn't matter by who) is down in the Americas.
Fact: WTC 70.3 Participation in the Americas is still growing even up to this year
Fact: No WTC 70.3s in the Americas have a mass start

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

A. I'm not making any kind of statements that the lack mass start contributes to anything


B. My statement is along the line that the participation of the Americas' IM athletes is not down. It's just more spread out throughout the planet these days than in years past. For example, it may be down 8% from 2013 vs 2018 for IMAZ, but those 8% may have gone overseas or to other newer North American races.


C. I don't disagree with your facts that participation in Ironman races that take place on the soil of the Americas is down, but that doesn't mean that the number of IM athletes, living in the Americas, is fewer than before. Perhaps we are arguing two different things and splitting hair :)

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

To be fair, I also thought I was replying to OP and the mass start claim, because despite being number oriented, I can't read the difference between zoom and woof... so there's that... sorry.

Well, I certainly can't easily find the numbers to see if your statement about Americas Athletes being true, I am sure WTC could publish those numbers (yeah right...) or obsessed ironman or coach cox if they felt like it but given that USAT has confirmed lower participation overall and WTC IMs show lower participation, that leads me to believe *in my opinion* that there are lower number of north american athletes (I would guess South American is up). Alas, that is my opinion and not based on fact!

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I've done 8 races that I can think of in Europe including 4 IMs. I'm not sure that is the driver for the decline in North America but there is no question there are many more options now for Europeans and their races seem to be doing better. So far, the following 2019 IMs are already sold out of general registration: Ireland, Austria, Germany, France and Sweden. I enjoy the travel and experience of European IMs far more than the US counterparts.

Yea, I sure miss those......IMAZ, IMWI, IMFL, IM Kona...... The scrum was part of the fun; sometimes fun, others ugly but always pretty damn cool. Today's races seem anticlimactic, especially Kona with the multiple starts.[/quote]
THIS, exactly^^^^

Bring back the mass start!!

---

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

They also changed the date to thanksgiving weekend in 2019 I believe.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

How long does it take to get the last athlete in the water ? so will that last athlete have 17 hours to finish?

And the bike course change in 2012 that changed it from a fun ride through the woods to a snoozefest on the highway.

Hmmm well that’s probably going to double the cost of my flights now.

Wasn't it always over Thanksgiving weekend until 2018? Must have been an outcry to shift it back.

I stand corrected. Thanksgiving is a week later next year.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I dont think the huddle of the mass start has much if any affect on race numbers. And just because one races numbers may be down, or even a couple, does not mean the entire race schedule is. There are more ironman, especially 70.3's for folks to do, and I hear they are doing quite well. Especially the ones that supplanted other existing 1/2 races. At some point people will figure out that you cannot do multiple ironman in a season, and we will run out of one and done folks. That will level off ironman 140.6 numbers, especially if there are more options that keep popping up.

AZ will always do well because it is in coolish weather and a very easy course. People like fast times, so they go flat and short every time, with lots of opportunities to ride aero on the hoods...

You had me there for a minute... I was relying on it being the usual Sunday before thanksgiving for the vacation plan! How long has it been the Sunday before?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Mass start or rolling has little to do with participation levels.

For another example, take a look at IMNZ. It has seen its numbers dropping, and they still have the mass start. I raced there in 2014 and then again in 2017 and there was a significant dropoff in signups.

It has always been the Sunday before. Unless it was in April. That was miserable!!

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

No, still Sunday before Thanksgiving.

I also read that AZ is charging sales tax on the entry; something like $120 or so. If true, I wonder if this impacts on entries.

Guys, chill out... It's going to sell out tomorrow guaranteed. They're already at 90%...

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What's your CdA?

Assuming that's even true, the math doesn't work even for an $825 entry fee. Google is telling me the Arizona tax rate is: "The combined sales tax rate for Phoenix, AZ is 8.6%. This is the total of state, county and city sales tax rates. The Arizona state sales tax rate is currently 5.6%. "

Err... wouldn't it be a maul, not a ruck ? As folks are using their hands to ahem, 'do the work' - whereas rucking is using feet ! (If a ruck, everyone would be penalised by the ref for having their hands in the ruck, going on at the side, etc. Unless of course the fact they are in black and may resemble Richie Mccaw at a distance means that the laws don't apply to them... ).

Nice! I think Maul defense is definitely that, throwing everything you have at it so that it stops. A Maul off a lineout is also a process.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Nowadays Ironman skips the middleman and sends the early reg links directly to anyone affiliated with a club in their system:

Last guy went in the water at 7:37. Apparently they announced him.

Results page says 3275 athletes, so call it 3000 athletes, 47 minutes, 64/minute was rolling start rate.

THIS, exactly^^^^

Bring back the mass start!![/quote]
I'm with you buddy! Funny how often we still see the mass start video from Kona as the current setup is so watered down( good one, eh?)

Got my ass kicked in the mass starts a couple of times and did very well in others, but I always knew where I stood in the races. The rolling start takes away all of the head to head competition, but maybe it's the new generation's idea of sport. Everyone gets a medal......

That was the 2015 race. Incidentally, 2015 was the inaugural rolling swim start ("SwimSmart".)

No, that's Ironman's view of swim safety. Other races have addressed the issue with wave starts. Sounds like the happy medium, and it's weird that Ironman didn't try that before the full-out rolling start for the entire field. Still, even then the MOP/BOP folks would get swum over by the trailing AG FOP crowd.

Exactly. Dumb it down for the lowest common denominator who chooses not to be able to swim well. Funny how in the old days once people got swam over once they did not start so far forward the next race. Instead of letting things sort themselves out, they try and legislate to make it fair and end up making it harder to actually compete against one's peers. While they have expanded to venues not capable of the crowds they now attract, many (including IMWI, IMFL, Kona, IMAZ) could easily still employ a mass start and be as safe as they are now. I was at IMWI and by not having the swimmers able to enter early and get used to the water and find their spot, it was worse from my view.

Just my 2 cents, but I think the decline in registration rate is:

A) people knowing, unless you are a super athlete, you have little to no shot a KQ - thus has been a downer for me and my wife who both are very athletic, we are top 10% but no way we have the bandwidth to compete with the top 1-2%

B) amount of training time needed for a full vs a 70.3

C) price to enter, when the tier 1 is never really offered to general public, then compound the high entry with travel, hotel, etc...I think people say its tier 1 or bust.

Yea, I wish they would make the website so one could search by price and see if it's worth it instead of clicking on all the links to be disappointed. Can't afford the sport anymore so am doing a lot more Indy races and having more fun at them at far less cost.

How much do you know about composite risk management? None, I'm gonna guess. I'll betcha 100% that their insurance company told them they needed to reduce risk and that a rolling start was one of the things on the table that they were required to execute.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

.

I’m sure you may be right. Too many lawyers in the mix, but the country we live in. Reducing risk does not mean it’s a good idea, just covering one’s ass. From the rolling starts I’ve observed there seems to be even more panic among the far back of the packers. Again, an issue that was not an issue when people actually prepared for what they committed to.

The few people who think mass starts of 2000 + people are a good idea are absolute idiots.
I am a 60 min IM swimmer, and trying not to drown in the 1st 200-300 yards was always a major challenge. I have friends who swim 52 min, and it was the same for them.
Rolling starts have made the swims much safer (drowning deaths have gone down significantly- most of which occurred in the first 100 yards)
Drafting is still bad, definitely better
The ability to get a clean, unobstructed swim is much more likely.
The concept of mass starts began when the fields were 1/3 to 1/2 the size that they are now, and there were not nearly as many one and done participants who start at the front, go all out for 100 yards, then start breaststroke or backstroke, or just stopping
There is absolutely nothing fun about that
Endurance races like 70.3 and IM are not like track meets and 5 and 10 k’s, or any single sport race.
It is a race in which your best time comes from focusing on yourself, not a head to head show down. For the pros it is a different story, as the fields are small enough for a mass start, but to my point, very few pro races are decided by gaps of less than 1 minute.
As a few have already posted, correlation can be causative or coincidental, it this case it is clearly coincidental, as a significant majority prefer the rolling starts.
Perhaps you should consider the more likely culprit- the decline in overall participation, and the rapid increase in the number of races. Both of these factors fit your time line quite well

I attempted IMAZ in 2008. I sat in T1 for 1/2 hour trying to stop shaking from being so cold due to the 10 mins or so of treading water before the swim start. Dropped out after a loop and a half on the run and I blame that on the swim start. Not sure if mass start or waves is any better.

I am a MOP swimmer and I too miss the mass swim start. The swim start at IMFL was special. See for yourself. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwYwUPVPLnM

Cool video, is that the year Finman did it?

You could have let him bet me before so easily shooting down his theory, thanks alot!

No, Finman was 2008 (I was there that year too). https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ida_Finman_P2075494/

Having been BOP myself back when there was mass starts as rolling started to take over, I can say absolutely not here.

But look, while I strongly prefer rolling to one big mass start, I will fully support the oft brought up ST idea of starting every race with an optional mass start for those who want to be competitive, then let the masses behind roll in separately. Every time this discussion pops up this solution is brought up eventually, because it's a good one and even as the points above bring in risk/insurance, I would figure it would be easy as forcing those who want to do the optional mass start sign a special release/waiver etc.

Anyway, I would more love to see this happen to prove the point that 10% of the people will actually care about a mass start option and participate. But at least those 10% could be satisfied.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Can someone tell me 1 thing with a rolling start.

Does the race force you to trickle in the water? Could 287 people all just roll off the front together? Or is there someone really making sure it sorta is an single file type of trickle start?

IE- if people wanted to “mass” start it could they?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

the first time I did a rolling start it was at IMCdA and it was truly rolling, just like a marathon start. The only thing limiting things was the width of the starting arch.

Most recently at IMFL the rolling start included "lanes" and a metered entry system, a beep every few seconds and the first person in each lane could enter, so five at a time.

So yeah, it's limited now, at least at IMFL.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The one race I've done that was a rolling start (Muncie), the organizers had it set up so that you started in a 4-wide chute. They held you until the "beep", then go. I'd guess 5 secs or so between groups of 4.

I was a little skeptical before I did it, but honestly, the rolling start is way better. At least you could swim rather than fight for space. I mean, I've played water polo, I CAN fight for space no problem, but I'd rather not.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Completely agree, the slots went from 100 -> 80 -> 50 -> 40. The math doesn't work for me any more, I have to plan on winning my age group or maybe 2nd and I'd have to have my very best day, nothing goes wrong and other guys don't. Combine that with the fact the prices are through the roof and I've bowed out. I still train but now just bike race, it's dramatically cheaper.

Eric, Jason thx for that info. Makes sense from the race organization to basically truly limit entry into water. Especially if 1 lap swim that would be kinda nice except for the whole “it’s not a head to head race” thing anymore. But if you look at it simply as a “time trial” that’s how you can mentally race it. Time trial every second counts always.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am only one person, and while local and having done IMAZ three times, decided that is it for me here. All about the swim. That run from exit was torture. Forget that. To your original point, it is my opinion Tempe Town Lake is tailor made for a mass start.

That IMFL start was really clean. Probably my favorite long-distance swim start I've done. That course was really tailor-made for that kind of start.

I think it's really dependent on the course as to how they manage the start. IMLP has had the controlled release in small batches like Haines City this year, but it has also seen 100+ released at a time in 30 second bunches as well.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

THIS, exactly^^^^

Bring back the mass start!![/quote]
YES! I've done the mass starts @ AZ, WI, LP, STG, and Kona. Nearly drowned at AZ in '11 because I lined up incorrectly (my bad). IMLP was the tightest start line but I still found clean water all the way down to the first turn buoy all three times I competed there. Wisconsin was the easiest to find a clean line (5 times). The first left turn at both those venues is tough but you can always swim wide to avoid the scrum. If we hadn't done the mass start at STG they would have cancelled the swim because the wind storm hit shortly after everyone started (I was happy to swim next to someone during that event). I didn't get touched once in Kona because I lined up DFL - my choice. I vote for bringing them all back: it's a BIG part of the Ironman experience and it should not be missed.

Here is the number of American finishers (IM+HIM) for the last 8 years


79,589 2018 (so far)
84,538 2017
79,541 2016
78,778 2015
74,773 2014
65,981 2013
68,103 2012
64,640 2011
58,404 2010

Define American finishers ...

U.S citizens doing any IMs on the planet?
U.S citizens doing any IMs on U.S soil?
Number of people doing IMs on U.S soil, including foreign nationals who flew in?

Are those numbers distinct individuals? If I did 20 in a year, am I counted as 20 in the stats?

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Thanks for chiming in!! I'd be more curious of this split between IM & 70.3, my guess based on your stats page is that 70.3 growth is supporting the combined growth

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

My guess is he is referring to those who self-selected their nationality/country of representation in the registration which is data easily pulled from their available data.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

You can't say that for every race in every venue. On top of that, in the "old days" there might have been several hundred racers as opposed to 2000-3000 in some places at the peak. That makes a huge difference in the viability of a mass start.

Coeur d'Alene back in 2011 was one of the roughest mass starts I've raced, with a relatively narrow (running) beach start. I come from a water polo background and I still found that borderline dangerous. Other races like IMC in Penticton were completely reasonable with a huge wide area to handle all the swim participants. I also think deep water mass starts are somewhat more calm than running beach starts.

That’s anyone with USA as their country.

When I started doing IMs in 2007 at AZ, all races were mass starts. In fact, every race (except Louisville) I did from 2007 up until the rolling start was implemented, was a mass start race. Yes, mass starts were chaotic, rucks/scrums (whichever you call it), but they were fun and you knew exactly where you stood in the race once you were on dry land.
I get the idea about safety and insurance for the rolling starts, but I would love to see mass starts brought back. I totally agree with the idea of having both at races. Mass start for those who want and sign a waiver, and a rolling for those who want that. This concept is already somewhat followed for wetsuit optional starts.

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Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

I just went through the entry process.

$850 entry
$979.17 total charge

Tax, fees, etc are about $120. I guess the person on Pathetic Tri Facebook lumped all charges, costs together.

Well, that's the true cost of an Ironman...not what's going to WTC...

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Thx. Yes, that would have to include the active.com gouge, but still. I've never had to pay a state or country tax for any of the IMs I've done. I'm glad I did Arizona before the state got greedy. Add in hotel and sales taxes on peoples stay and spending and that race has become a golden goose for the state.

A waiver isn't going to solve the insurance problem.

The ship has sailed, folks. The mass start isn't coming back.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

It's still available for those who will put their money where their mouth is and do Ironman Lanzerote. Here's the 2018 swim start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YngSli89MFw

And IMNZ.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this first post is non sequitur.

Looks like it’s sold out now. I looked last weekend and it was still open at Tier 4. So it took maybe about a week this year?

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Matt

I had a friend sign up Monday so sounds like it. Ironman has no reason to not continue increasing prices here, if it sells out in 1 hour or 1 month it makes little difference.

OMG...an Ironman takes a week to sell out...I seriously don't get this thread lol.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.