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Velosense
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this got briefly mentioned in a thread some months ago. but i finally got a round tuit today. if you're cody beals, jordan rapp, damon rinard, tom anhalt, jim marton, andy coggan, mark cote, chris yu, cyclenutz, greenplease, bryand, sausskross, martin toft madsen, trail, kiley, eric reid (not the football player) or... the great hambini!... how are you not all over this?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan

I think the tech is great, price point not so much.

Ray wrote a bit about it here

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...dbits-velosense.html

Not sure how much is too much, but $1,000 seems a bit outrageous to me. I would gladly rent one from a local shop - maybe that’s the model if the hardware is too expensive to get unit price down. Treat a rental it like tunnel time or an investment in a bike fit - a once a year or two expense.

That said, man I would love to see the effect of real time position, bike fit and equipment changes. Maybe it’s the smartest $1,000 you can spend. Maybe it’s not.

Happy to try it and be wrong at $300 - 400ish, but at a $1,000 I would choke a little.
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Re: Velosense [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]
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i've invited the velosense guys to chime in, which perhaps they'll do tomorrow (it's past their bed times!). me (and i'm happy to have them call me an ignorant slut), i would doubt this ever sees the retail market under its current ownership/manufacturing paradigm. rather i think it'll either be a straight purchase of the tech, a licensing of the tech, or something like 4iiii and specialized.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Right!

That’s why I throw out the rental market concept. Easy way to prove people demand the tech - which we do.

Way easier than industrial engineering (which they could probably do) and establishing the distribution model and integration with the various head units.

I hope they comment on ST and get this thing to market.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it looks great and something that initially I thought I could see myself using. BUT....

I think I would do one surge of testing with it to sort out position and gear and then I would be pretty much be done with it for a couple of years until it's time to choose a new helmet or whatever.

2 hours at A2 is about $1000. I get get all that testing done in an environment that I gotta think is a lot more accurate. So add travel and one night at a hotel and I think you are competing against a cost to test at A2 of about $1500-$1800. That's not very favorable for VeloSense. Over a few years and rounds of equipment upgrades maybe the VeloSense gets the nod...

Which gets me to the question - how do they measure (and prove to us) their accuracy? Have they done tests that they have shared?

The above does not consider the ability to see what your yaw angle distributions look like in different conditions, which is useful. But that's not going to vary a bunch from person to person. A few people post some data and you can pretty much use theirs.

I could be wrong in this analysis. Maybe I would try it and get totally addicted to it. I'm not sure.

I could see coaches buying this and using it with their athletes to help them fine tune. A lot more value there, but a tiny market.

I would tell them that if they believe in this - and they clearly do because as long as that thing is real and not vaporware, they have put some significant resources into it - they should get it out on the market before they try to sell it to Garmin or whoever. Prove there is demand and prove that people are willing to pay the price they require to make it attractive.

If they sell it now, the market uncertainty will drive their price way way down. Will they sell 200 of these a year or 5,000? Who knows. Garmin will offer them a price assuming 200 if they don't prove it first.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Oct 1, 18 16:13
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm mostly gratified my name is in a list with all those other people for whatever reason.

But I am all over it. I've got like $5K set aside to buy 3-4 different ones and try them all out, and the Velosense is certainly competing for that starting rotation. This one isn't due out until summer 2019, think, though. Which it seems like these devices have been perpetually due out "next summer" for about the past 3 years, so it must be really hard to make them consumer friendly.
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

I think I would do one surge of testing with it to sort out position and gear and then I would be pretty much be done with it for a couple of years until it's time to choose a new helmet or whatever.

Not me. I'm constantly tinkering. Are those new NoPinz overshoes helping, this new helmet, this new hand position, etc.


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2 hours at A2 is about $1000. I get get all that testing done in an environment that I gotta think is a lot more accurate.

More accurate unless you believe the great Hambini, in which case you're optimizing for nice clean wind tunnel air instead of real world air.[/quote] Which gets me to the question - how do they measure (and prove to us) their accuracy? .[/quote]


I don't know, but if their demo-grade wind tunnel at Interbike is any guide, they're not at all new to putting their device in a wind tunnel and setting known angles/speeds and measuring the output.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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We've all learned to wait until the unit is delivered before getting excited!
The bike brand guys already have Aerolab which is on a totally different price level to Aerosense.

Aeropod apparently starting shipping this week, which should lead to more discussion of this sort of thing - more enthusiasts able to try out the tech.
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Re: Velosense [trail] [ In reply to ]
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So if you are testing something new like a helmet or shoes or whatever, how do you know the difference you are seeing is not dominated by minor positional changes from the last time you tested? In a tunnel there are ways to control it somewhat, but if you go a week or a month between tests, how do you know?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
So if you are testing something new like a helmet or shoes or whatever, how do you know the difference you are seeing is not dominated by minor positional changes from the last time you tested? In a tunnel there are ways to control it somewhat, but if you go a week or a month between tests, how do you know?

Well I don't know. My current methodology is based of RChung-style testing on a velodrome. I'll do it about monthly. I'll go out and do a bunch of laps, change something, bunch more laps. Then go back to the original setup as a sanity check, bunch more laps. Maybe a few rounds of that. If there was some combo that had a strong signal for being faster, that's the new baseline.

Then say, two months later, I'll start with that baseline as the starting point. Of course, you're right. I don't measure my body position to make sure I'm in that exact same position. Or maybe when I was doing maintenance I changed my bar position by 2mm. I don't know. It's not wind-tunnel grade.

So I guess the answer is there are ways to approach aero testing: 1) super precise measurement controlling everything possible, get a small of amount of high-quality data 2) decent measurement, shit-ton of data

It's like a classical FTP test vs. WKO mFTP. You can go through the FTP process every time you test, make sure the temperature is the same, calibrate all the instrumentation, do the same warmup, etc. Or you can just go collect a shit-ton of training data and estimate it and get pretty darn close.

With the new devices, I think it might be more like a gradient descent, to borrow engineering terminology. Am I more aero than last week? Last month? There's no need to rapidly converge. Maybe this week I'll experiment with overlapped hands. Maybe next week I'll borrow my buddy's Aerohead. How does my gravel bike compare to my road bike?

I don't think it's a replacement for wind tunnel testing. Or Jim @ ERO-type-expertise. But when you go arrive at the tunnel, for that final optimization, you can bring a lot to the table.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
this got briefly mentioned in a thread some months ago. but i finally got a round tuit today. if you're cody beals, jordan rapp, damon rinard, tom anhalt, jim marton, andy coggan, mark cote, chris yu, cyclenutz, greenplease, bryand, sausskross, martin toft madsen, trail, kiley, eric reid (not the football player) or... the great hambini!... how are you not all over this?


First I've heard or seen of it yet.

The sensor configuration is intriguing...I'd LOVE to understand more about how that functions. Getting the angles is key to the accuracy of these devices IMHO.

Here's the main takeaway I have from all of these new sensors coming out (which I've shared before)...what's going to "make or break" these devices is going to be the usability aspects. Making it easy to use and analyze is EVERYTHING. If it takes a long, drawn-out process to calibrate and to crunch the numbers, it makes the usage much less desirable.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 2, 18 7:49
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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$1000

In a sport that is dying because the mainstream/younger generation views it as a bunch of rich old white dudes...

Let's see. You can do this Spartan race for 100 bucks and a pair of running shoes or you can try a tri, but you HAVE to have a...

10000 dollar bike
500 dollar skin suit
300 dollar helmet
3000 dollar wheels
1000 dollar powermeter
1000 dollar smart trainer
300 dollar bike shoes
Running shoes =
300 dollar wetsuit
Slowtwitch membership (free!!!)
150 dollar entry for a sprint or 900 for an IM
And now, a 1000 thingy that tells you if all the above stuff saves you 15 watts

ETA: I do like the use, but don't see it as feasable for the masses. I could see a lot of shops buying one of these to use with fitting, etc
Last edited by: davejustdave: Oct 1, 18 17:32
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Re: Velosense [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]
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The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.


--Chris
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Re: Velosense [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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i usually pay my entry fees and i pay for most of my equipment. none of my stuff costs anything close to what you quote.

all my metrics say that triathlon is up in 2018, after 5 down years. and, i reported contemporaneously that we were down when we were down, before anyone else reported it. so, when i report that it's up, it's up.

you guys who are just... so... assburned about the cost of stuff! you need to figure out what it is that's really bugging you! because, i'm very happy cycling in $150 shoes, and my road shoes are something like 7yr old and falling apart. there's a thread for you! we all know which one it is!

as to THIS product, i think it's interesting tech. i'm not going to buy one. but it's interesting tech. maybe if it comes out for $375 i might buy one. that doesn't make me hate it! chill, bro!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
So if you are testing something new like a helmet or shoes or whatever, how do you know the difference you are seeing is not dominated by minor positional changes from the last time you tested? In a tunnel there are ways to control it somewhat, but if you go a week or a month between tests, how do you know?

Why wouldn’t you ride with one helmet

Stop and then test with the other helmet?
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Re: Velosense [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:
$1000

In a sport that is dying because the mainstream/younger generation views it as a bunch of rich old white dudes...

Let's see. You can do this Spartan race for 100 bucks and a pair of running shoes or you can try a tri, but you HAVE to have a...

10000 dollar bike
500 dollar skin suit
300 dollar helmet
3000 dollar wheels
1000 dollar powermeter
1000 dollar smart trainer
300 dollar bike shoes
Running shoes =
300 dollar wetsuit
Slowtwitch membership (free!!!)
150 dollar entry for a sprint or 900 for an IM
And now, a 1000 thingy that tells you if all the above stuff saves you 15 watts

ETA: I do like the use, but don't see it as feasable for the masses. I could see a lot of shops buying one of these to use with fitting, etc

How long since you raced at a college triathlon?

Hundreds of college age kids racing
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well, this is the exact reason Garmin purchased Alphamantis.

My belief is none of these devices is yet ready for prime time, and it's going to take a few years of shake out before we're seeing consistently accurate data. We haven't yet answered the simple question of where we need to mount them!

Then, of course, you have this new kid on the block who says we're seeing more yaw than we believe, which is the opposite of what 4 or 5 other companies who've been collecting this type of data for a few years have found. Hmmm. I don't know who's right and who isn't, but I always question the outlier. Maybe they've found something no one else has, but it will take some convincing if everyone else's data is different.

Other than that, I can't wait to have a working, consistent, aero stick. I'll have a size run of bikes with Alpha One aero bars waiting to dial in positions, helmets, clothing, etc. Somebody get me one!

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Velosense [chriselam] [ In reply to ]
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chriselam wrote:
The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.

this is a product that, as far as i know, hasn't come out yet. personally i doubt it will, under this company. at interbike they didn't even really suggest to me that it would be for sale. i think they'll look for a manufacturing partner.

now, as to the twice as good or half as good, my interest is in whether the tech is accurate, and if others are inaccurate. when i saw the output from this device, what caught my eye was the greater yaw amplitudes, and i wonder whether we're getting good data out of other similar devices (including what has been used by FLO, mavic, swiss side, etc.) as anemometers or pitot-tube devices to generate the yaws we purportedly see.

maybe i'm missing something critical here, but i don't care what it costs any more than i care what a wind tunnel session costs. i care what information it yields.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Well, this is the exact reason Garmin purchased Alphamantis.

My belief is none of these devices is yet ready for prime time, and it's going to take a few years of shake out before we're seeing consistently accurate data. We haven't yet answered the simple question of where we need to mount them!

Then, of course, you have this new kid on the block who says we're seeing more yaw than we believe, which is the opposite of what 4 or 5 other companies who've been collecting this type of data for a few years have found. Hmmm. I don't know who's right and who isn't, but I always question the outlier. Maybe they've found something no one else has, but it will take some convincing if everyone else's data is different.

Other than that, I can't wait to have a working, consistent, aero stick. I'll have a size run of bikes with Alpha One aero bars waiting to dial in positions, helmets, clothing, etc. Somebody get me one!

two things. first, i *think* that is what this device is showing. i'd like others determine this. second, this is also what hambini said. let's see what these guys have to say once they chime in.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Can you say, "stagnation"?

http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0008/0008.htm
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
chriselam wrote:
The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.


this is a product that, as far as i know, hasn't come out yet. personally i doubt it will, under this company. at interbike they didn't even really suggest to me that it would be for sale. i think they'll look for a manufacturing partner. ...

The number of companies in this segment with near-identical names can be a wee bit confusing.

The AeroPod is actually one of the two products closest to shipping, other being the Notio Konect from Notio (Argon 18 sub). Notio started a soft launch this past summer and has real units with real consumers/buyers. The AeroPod launched for sale this past spring, and was set to start shipping by the end of summer. They said over the weekend they'll start shipping out this weekend (myself/Robert/Tom played with both units in a tunnel a couple weeks ago).

Everyone else is in some state of 'soonish'. Velosense with the furthest out dates at this point by any player I'm aware of, and with the remainder of companies mostly evenly spaced between later this year and next spring.

Ultimately, as Jim noted though - I think we'll see some turbulence with respect to accuracy of units over the near term. However, as Tom noted what's clearly becoming the most important factor is actually just usability of the device and the data. That's based on me having touched in some way or another almost every device to date (production/proposed/mythical). Most of these companies are underestimating how the usability factor will actually be the most important piece behind relative accuracy* on how they're judged.

*I say relative accuracy, because I don't think we're at the point yet of having absolute CdA accuracy...but maybe I'll be proven wrong.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i usually pay my entry fees and i pay for most of my equipment. none of my stuff costs anything close to what you quote.

all my metrics say that triathlon is up in 2018, after 5 down years. and, i reported contemporaneously that we were down when we were down, before anyone else reported it. so, when i report that it's up, it's up.

you guys who are just... so... assburned about the cost of stuff! you need to figure out what it is that's really bugging you! because, i'm very happy cycling in $150 shoes, and my road shoes are something like 7yr old and falling apart. there's a thread for you! we all know which one it is!

as to THIS product, i think it's interesting tech. i'm not going to buy one. but it's interesting tech. maybe if it comes out for $375 i might buy one. that doesn't make me hate it! chill, bro!

Dan.. look into tris in San Diego:

You must be getting a discount.

MB tri yesterday was 130 or 140...

Pretty much all sprints around here are 100+.. for a sprint. Typically 130...

I may do the bakersfield tri next weekend: screaming deal at $90 for the sprint. (In a pretty place to boot), but I have only done 2 races this year because as a single homeowner, I've literally been prices out of conpetition.

It sucks, and yes, I'm a little bitter. It's frustrating. But it actually does hit home at my original point: the sport is dying in the US due to overriding. It's fine if you can buy speed, but the average American isn't there


Care to provide me a list if all these cheap triathlons? If be all over it!

He'll, give me a list of FIVE true in socal that cost less than 100 bucks and I will race every one.This
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Re: Velosense [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Slowman wrote:
chriselam wrote:
The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.


this is a product that, as far as i know, hasn't come out yet. personally i doubt it will, under this company. at interbike they didn't even really suggest to me that it would be for sale. i think they'll look for a manufacturing partner. ...


The number of companies in this segment with near-identical names can be a wee bit confusing.

The AeroPod is actually one of the two products closest to shipping, other being the Notio Konect from Notio (Argon 18 sub). Notio started a soft launch this past summer and has real units with real consumers/buyers. The AeroPod launched for sale this past spring, and was set to start shipping by the end of summer. They said over the weekend they'll start shipping out this weekend (myself/Robert/Tom played with both units in a tunnel a couple weeks ago).

Everyone else is in some state of 'soonish'. Velosense with the furthest out dates at this point by any player I'm aware of, and with the remainder of companies mostly evenly spaced between later this year and next spring.

Ultimately, as Jim noted though - I think we'll see some turbulence with respect to accuracy of units over the near term. However, as Tom noted what's clearly becoming the most important factor is actually just usability of the device and the data. That's based on me having touched in some way or another almost every device to date (production/proposed/mythical). Most of these companies are underestimating how the usability factor will actually be the most important piece behind relative accuracy* on how they're judged.

*I say relative accuracy, because I don't think we're at the point yet of having absolute CdA accuracy...but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

you must've seen these guys at eurobike? i saw them at interbike. sounds like you saw what i saw. i saw a graph that showed yaws, degrees of yaw across time and pretty wild swings, and i mean a swing back and forth every second or two, as if just the action of steering the bike created changes in yaw. they disputed that this was the cause (and there is pretty compelling math that they're right, because it's very easy to demonstrate the exact degrees your front wheel turns to the left and right during steering. however, it isn't how much the wheel turns relative to the frame; but to the ground (to the line you're holding).

my interest in this is not so much just drag, but steering torque and handling. if the yaw really does sway that widely, that quickly, that calls into question (to me) the validity of wind tunnel testing, at least as relates to any conclusions drawn regarding steering torque, change in torque, stall. maybe i'm just a conspiracy theorist but i found this interesting so close on the heels of the thread on hambini and his view of this.

i have no interest in this as a consumer device. i know that's how people see it. i'm primarily interested in how this informs our knowledge in front wheel aerodynamics and handling.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [chriselam] [ In reply to ]
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chriselam wrote:
The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.

See my post above about ease of use. My experience with products from "the company that has essentially been doing something similar for years" is that the use of them tends to be a bit..."fiddly"...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, that is what my interests do focus, too .. improving knowledge about sensing and understanding helps to adjust just in time .. to find a good rhythm is what it is called .. for the air moving by this is very time (and perception) critical, because it's hard for cognition to trigger reactions adopting to the possible turbulence of changes .. what I like is the simplified display of changes on the device to find a tendency that can be managed with some amount of memory and recorded success ..

edit: while all the blood seems to be in the legs ..

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Oct 1, 18 22:38
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Re: Velosense [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I actually question how much of a market, in the world of cycling and multi-sport, truly exists for this type of device. I'm fairly certain the golden age of aero has come and gone. Bikes aren't going to get much better, helmets (assuming you have a good position) are all testing very close to one another, what makes clothing fast is pretty well known at this point, and consumer knowledge of all these things is much better than 10 years ago. For positioning, this will be great. Once proven accurate, I'll use the hell out of these things. For everything else, there's not much low hanging fruit left out there.

I also don't believe it's about obtaining better data. We're already pretty darn good at predicting bike splits, so that tells me the data we're getting from the wind tunnel and velodrome is fairly accurate. If we can use this device as a cheaper alternative to those two, that would be great, but now we're talking about offering it as a service by people like myself who can combine it with at least some level of expertise. Once you get past the pointy end of the market, I just don't see wide adoption. How big a market is the pointy end? I don't know, but it will be no where near the power meter market. There was a time, but to quote Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, "Those times are over."

Of course, I don't believe everyone entering this market is focused solely on cycling and/or multi-sport. ;-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Velosense [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
. For positioning, this will be great. Once proven accurate, I'll use the hell out of these things. For everything else, there's not much low hanging fruit left out there.

It's hard to know if we are going to get significantly faster bikes/wheels/tires/clothes/etc (probably not, right?) but there sure is a lot of room to improve (amateur) rider position. And the way different components interact with each other and the rider might lead to decent gains too. An easy way to tinker with this would be pretty cool.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
this got briefly mentioned in a thread some months ago. but i finally got a round tuit today. if you're cody beals, jordan rapp, damon rinard, tom anhalt, jim marton, andy coggan, mark cote, chris yu, cyclenutz, greenplease, bryand, sausskross, martin toft madsen, trail, kiley, eric reid (not the football player) or... the great hambini!... how are you not all over this?

I saw it and made a note to watch their progress but it appears they still have a ways to go before it's ready for prime time. I didn't think it was worth starting a thread or kicking up a fuss until we got closer to launch. That said the feature set is interesting. One thing that sort of bothers me about my mantis setup is that I've only tested it to 10 degrees in the tunnel and I don't know how it performs at higher yaws.

When I field test, I'm basically testing at zero yaw by default. I only test on still mornings and my whole route is heavily lined by oak and pine trees. Having a sensor that records yaw would definitely add an extra dimension and actually encourage one to test in the wind. I've also always been curious about the "real world" difference between something like a 303 front and an 808 front on a windy day. Does the extra butt-pucker really gain you what the tunnel says it should?
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hello,

This is John Buckley the co-founder of Velosense. Dr Barnaby Garrood and I started looking into measuring wind on a bicycle about five years ago as a pet project to try and get an estimate of our aerodynamic drag.
Both of us have been Aerodynamicists for our entire career, with the majority of the time spent in Formula One. Barney in particular had worked for several years as a track aerodynamicist, correlating real world conditions with the wind tunnel. The main difficulties of this job lay in measuring car forces (downforce and engine power) and capturing the wind direction while the car is cornering.

Measuring power dynamically on an F1 engine is extremely difficult as the environment is harsh (hot) and noisy (large fluctuations in torque). Modern bicycle power meters in their much more forgiving environment mean that now many riders have accurate and highly repeatable power meters. The force (coming from power) measurement is the starting point for resolving any aerodynamic force, so in cycling we already have a better foundation. However in F1 the speed works for you: pressures and forces are far higher so easier to resolve, and wind yaw angles are substantially lower. A strong background in aerodynamic instrumentation is therefore critical to getting an accurate aerodynamic device.

One of the biggest challenges for us has been creating a device which can measure wind yaw angle over a large range - in field testing with crosswinds, we often observe that the instantaneous wind angles are +/- 20 degrees of the average wind angle. So along a stretch of road, I may have an average crosswind angle of 10 degrees, but this is made of values from +30 to -10 degrees. During our career we have used multi-hole pitots which give a high angular range, but the results from these have always been poor, especially in the turbulent conditions commonly seen on bikes. We believe this is due to the way the air flows over these devices, separating over the measurement hole at larger yaw angles, requiring complex calibrations. So using a few tricks we had learned during our careers, we set out to develop something completely new.

Following 2 years of development and wind tunnel testing, in the spring of 2017 we made a few technical breakthroughs which resulted in a design not far removed from the Velosense probe (but much larger!) which is accurate up to 50° wind yaw angle. We have a patent pending on the shape and measurement system of the probe, and we may apply it to applications wider than the cycling market.

Measuring air speed on a moving vehicle is always difficult due to the vehicles effect on the airflow, as Andrew Coggan's post above alludes to (here's that link again: http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0008/0008.htm). One solution to this is to move the probe a distance far enough away from the vehicle that the effect is negligible. Another solution is to place the sensor in a position where the airflow is affected by the vehicle body, but to calibrate the sensor to account for this effect. On an F1 car, the air flow sensor is on top of the nose, where it is affected by the volume of the car, the changes front wing angles, and even the height of the car above the ground. By testing and mapping these conditions, calibration factors can be determined to obtain very accurate results. The bicycle situation is complicated by different rider positions and bicycle configurations.

It is important that users understand the relationship between accuracy and repeatability. Repeatability allows users to make adjustments and observe positive or negative results, whereas accuracy is required when determining what the absolute time over a race will be. Our device will come with a pre-set factory calibration which can be used to take repeatable measurements straight out of the box. For users looking to measure to a high level of absolute accuracy, this pre-set calibration can be updated using a calibration routine.

Our aim has been to create an aerodynamic device which is as easy to use as a power meter. If elevation change, wind, air density, and rolling resistance can be accurately measured and accounted for, aerodynamic drag in differing conditions and locations can be compared. Aerodynamic devices will always be inherently more complex that power meters, but our calibration and data analysis methods will massively simplify the use of our probe. So for example, calibration can be as easy as riding up and down the same stretch of road, whilst our analysis methods can reduce the CdA to a simple number which takes account of the variability in yaw angle.

We are currently in Banff for the ANT+ symposium and will return to the UK next week to continue an intensive road testing program. We have followed the aerodynamic threads on slowtwitch and greatly appreciate all of the work that has been done by contributors to this forum, especially in the field of rolling resistance, which has been very valuable to us. In the coming weeks we can share some of our measurements such as wind angle variation from our road testing.

John Buckley

John Buckley
https://streamlines.aero
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
...2 hours at A2 is about $1000. I get get all that testing done in an environment that I gotta think is a lot more accurate. So add travel and one night at a hotel and I think you are competing against a cost to test at A2 of about $1500-$1800. That's not very favorable for VeloSense. Over a few years and rounds of equipment upgrades maybe the VeloSense gets the nod...

I would think that the ideal usability of VeloSense (and its competitors) would be less post-use analysis and more real-time control. In other words, you go to A2, you get data, you crunch it, you change your equipment/position and you're done. With VeloSense, if they can give you that "two diamond display" in real-time, you are able not only make those equipment/position updates grossly once every year or two, but to actively shift/correct your position throughout your race. Holding a position over 112 miles is tough, this could be used to tell you, "Hey! You're sub-optimal! Quit wasting watts!" Combined with power/speed/heartrate (maybe in place of power?) and it seems to me a really useful tool.

$1000 still seems steep, but I'm in the camp with slowman that tri does not require $20k in equipment to get you happily to the finish line!
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Measuring air speed on a moving vehicle is always difficult due to the vehicles effect on the airflow, as Andrew Coggan's post above alludes to (here's that link again: http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0008/0008.htm). One solution to this is to move the probe a distance far enough away from the vehicle that the effect is negligible. Another solution is to place the sensor in a position where the airflow is affected by the vehicle body, but to calibrate the sensor to account for this effect.

How do you account for the fact that the shape of the"vehicle body" keeps changing?

For example, it seems quite likely that the flow field in the vicinity of your sensor would vary significantly based on the angle of the arms.
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Hi John,
I take it this is the application? https://patents.google.com/patent/GB2558709A/

It's a bit unclear without the illustrations in the application, but as I understand the text, you have a series of pressure ports in the inner walls of the "ring" which give a pressure differential that is calibrated to yaw angle...is that the basic gist?

That sounds really cool...it's sort of like turning a mutiport pitot tube "inside-out" :-)

BTW, I'm glad you mentioned the corrected air speed calibration possibly changing with body positional changes...I think that's something which a lot of folks may not understand about how these devices work and it needs to get out there "early and often" for it to sink in ;-)

Thanks for the update!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Super excited to see this product, and more so the conversation around the testing that has been done to date.

I have seen several apropos designs, and none of them have addressed this higher yaw measurement capability. It has been my supposition that several of the wind yaw distribution studies have been flawed due to instrumentation shortcomings.

Some of the best yaw data I have gathered is with string and a GoPro, as the string doesn't have a limitation on the angles it can express.
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Quote:

Measuring air speed on a moving vehicle is always difficult due to the vehicles effect on the airflow, as Andrew Coggan's post above alludes to (here's that link again: http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0008/0008.htm). One solution to this is to move the probe a distance far enough away from the vehicle that the effect is negligible. Another solution is to place the sensor in a position where the airflow is affected by the vehicle body, but to calibrate the sensor to account for this effect.


How do you account for the fact that the shape of the"vehicle body" keeps changing?

For example, it seems quite likely that the flow field in the vicinity of your sensor would vary significantly based on the angle of the arms.

My $0.02 on this issue is that the farther out from the rider the device is mounted the better. This has limits, however, as the longer the mount gets the more the device can "bounce" (oscillate up and down) when you go over a bump and this will introduce noise into the readings.
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's why back in the mid 1990s Martin et al. mounted their "whirlygig" device on a long, stiff boom extending from the head tube.
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A question that I have been pondering: how long does the wind have to be coming from a particular yaw angle before it "counts"?

Obviously, an instrument with a very low temporal resolution will only provide a measure of the central tendency, whereas one with much higher temporal resolution will record greater variation. If, however, the wind comes from an angle for too brief of time to alter the overall drag, then such fluctuations aren't really relevant.

(In wind tunnel design and validation, a distinction is made between longer-term fluctuations in overall wind speed and shorter-term variations in turbulence, with the cut-off between the two based on how long it takes the air to flow past an object... I need to go revisit how those calculations are made )
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chicanery wrote:

Some of the best yaw data I have gathered is with string and a GoPro, as the string doesn't have a limitation on the angles it can express.

So you have image processing to calculate the angle represented by the string?
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
you must've seen these guys at eurobike? i saw them at interbike. sounds like you saw what i saw. i saw a graph that showed yaws, degrees of yaw across time and pretty wild swings, and i mean a swing back and forth every second or two, as if just the action of steering the bike created changes in yaw. they disputed that this was the cause (and there is pretty compelling math that they're right, because it's very easy to demonstrate the exact degrees your front wheel turns to the left and right during steering. however, it isn't how much the wheel turns relative to the frame; but to the ground (to the line you're holding)

Actually, it's about how much it turns relative to the apparent wind ;-)

But, what value would you term as "wild"? 10 degrees? 20??

I only ask because in my own (admittedly somewhat limited) playing around with an Alphamantis Aerostick (mounted on handlebars), the only time I saw what I would term "wild" yaw swings (i.e. on the order of 10-20deg larger than the nominal) was when performing a low speed, 180 degree turn, in which there would be a large yaw swing in one direction at the start of the turn, followed by another in the opposite direction as the bars returned to center. While riding along in a straight line, the sample by sample variation was much smaller.

For example, here's a data section with one such 180 degree turn:


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
chicanery wrote:


Some of the best yaw data I have gathered is with string and a GoPro, as the string doesn't have a limitation on the angles it can express.


So you have image processing to calculate the angle represented by the string?

What would be cool is to overlay stats taken from a solid-state yaw sensor onto the video of the string to see how well they correlate :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:

you must've seen these guys at eurobike? i saw them at interbike. sounds like you saw what i saw. i saw a graph that showed yaws, degrees of yaw across time and pretty wild swings, and i mean a swing back and forth every second or two, as if just the action of steering the bike created changes in yaw. they disputed that this was the cause (and there is pretty compelling math that they're right, because it's very easy to demonstrate the exact degrees your front wheel turns to the left and right during steering. however, it isn't how much the wheel turns relative to the frame; but to the ground (to the line you're holding)


Actually, it's about how much it turns relative to the apparent wind ;-)

But, what value would you term as "wild"? 10 degrees? 20??

I only ask because in my own (admittedly somewhat limited) playing around with an Alphamantis Aerostick (mounted on handlebars), the only time I saw what I would term "wild" yaw swings (i.e. on the order of 10-20deg larger than the nominal) was when performing a low speed, 180 degree turn, in which there would be a large yaw swing in one direction at the start of the turn, followed by another in the opposite direction as the bars returned to center. While riding along in a straight line, the sample by sample variation was much smaller.

For example, here's a data section with one such 180 degree turn:

please bear in mind i have no idea what i'm talking about. that stipulated...

what i don't see on your graph is the time increments along the x axis. so, each triangle is representative of - what? - maybe 1sec, or 2sec? (wild guesses.)

now, you see these oscillations, and it seems like what you're getting is a pair of yaws that are 4° from each other, or 2° off of centerline in each direction. what i think you're reading from john above is maybe 4x that sort of swing. he can correct me if i'm wrong.

this is what i referred to. this is what got me to stop as i was walking by the booth. that chart, printed on an 8.5"x11" paper, that looked just like yours, except yours looked like a 3 on the richter scale and his looked like an 8. and then i thought of your good friend and mine hambini. whom i have not alerted to the existence of this thread yet. because i thought we could have some quiet time with john first.

but maybe i'm not interpreting all this properly.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew Coggan wrote:
A question that I have been pondering: how long does the wind have to be coming from a particular yaw angle before it "counts"?

Obviously, an instrument with a very low temporal resolution will only provide a measure of the central tendency, whereas one with much higher temporal resolution will record greater variation. If, however, the wind comes from an angle for too brief of time to alter the overall drag, then such fluctuations aren't really relevant.

(In wind tunnel design and validation, a distinction is made between longer-term fluctuations in overall wind speed and shorter-term variations in turbulence, with the cut-off between the two based on how long it takes the air to flow past an object... I need to go revisit how those calculations are made )

Ok I have been following this thread all day and can't help myself. I too have thought about this and basically apply a cutoff based on the length scale of turbulence that is on the scale of the rider. The temporal resolution required to resolve such a scale can be roughly be calculated from the convective speed of the turbulent fluctuation as it passes through the cyclist. For a turbulent fluctuation that is 1 meter in length scale and a relative speed of 10 m/s, you are looking at 0.1 seconds for that fluctuation to pass through. Apply Nyquist criterion, and you need at least 20Hz sample rate. We sample at 200[Hz] currently in our little wind sensor thingy (AeroLab Tech Sensor). *Note: this is a very rough approximation, and this theory would need to actually be tested for its applicability and influence on overall drag*

Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram
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Re: Velosense [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I do, because google has some nice image processing libraries. Really not difficult if you have good color contrast.

Honestly pretty interesting to just watch at 5x speed or so, especially if the GoPro can see the computer as well.

I am not trying to measure anything anymore, just trying to understand some things from a different perspective.

For years I have chased frames and wheels with great zero/low or high yaw performance, and then chose the "right" one on the morning, but more and more I see that it's so much more complex.
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
A question that I have been pondering: how long does the wind have to be coming from a particular yaw angle before it "counts"?

Obviously, an instrument with a very low temporal resolution will only provide a measure of the central tendency, whereas one with much higher temporal resolution will record greater variation. If, however, the wind comes from an angle for too brief of time to alter the overall drag, then such fluctuations aren't really relevant.

(In wind tunnel design and validation, a distinction is made between longer-term fluctuations in overall wind speed and shorter-term variations in turbulence, with the cut-off between the two based on how long it takes the air to flow past an object... I need to go revisit how those calculations are made )


I think the answer is that all time "counts" as far as energy expenditure is concerned thus the higher the sampling rate, however "noisy", the better. Given the shape of most yaw distributions we have and the fact that most samples have been taken at ~1hz (iirc) I think we can safely conclude that the resulting yaw distribution skews low. Maybe not much, but at least a bit.

I'll throw this out there: Josh Portner (Silca/Zipp) recently let an interesting tidbit slip. Zipp did some testing where they went from 30 degrees to 0 degrees to see when the flow would reattach and they found that reattachment did not occur at the same angle as detachment for the rims they tested. Instead they found that flow didn't reattach until a lower yaw for most rims. He also hinted that shapes that performed better at higher yaws saw their flow reattach sooner when going from 30 to 0 degrees. For most modern rim/tire combinations we see today flow seems to detach around 12-15 degrees. For all the modeling that's been done (that I'm aware of) it has been assumed that a given wheel's performance from 0-20 degrees is the same as its performance from 20-0 degrees. Separation is admittedly rare for most riders but, again, this is a consideration that might be biasing us toward low yaws in design and equipment selection.

Something that has always bothered me, personally, is that we test in the tunnel with the front wheel perfectly aligned with the frame when, in reality, the wheel is constantly moving a few degrees back and forth from zero. If I had the time, I'd figure out a way to hook up a servo encoder to my headset to gather data.

...rambling here....

If we think about what happens when a side wind hits a rider, the wind tilts the rider/bike away from the direction of the wind which causes the front wheel to turn back into the wind. The rider then counteracts this and resets the system. In this instance, if you had two different yaw sensors attached to the bike at two different places (the handlebars and, say, the top tube) you'd get two different readings for two different parts of the system. If I'm thinking about this correctly the frame would see a higher yaw than the front wheel. The unknown for most of us is how the front wheel down tube system works when the two aren't aligned. It would seem to me the most pragmatic approach would be to include the steering deviation (1, 2, maybe 3 degrees) from center and add that to the yaw distribution that the wheel "sees" as the goal is for the flow to stay attached to the front wheel and then transition smoothly to the down tube.

Wrapping up my ramble here...

In light of the forgoing, perhaps we should be looking more closely at the performance of our equipment at higher yaws.

Edit: this might also make one reconsider tire selection as some fast rolling tires really hinder the performance of a wheel at higher yaws. The Turbo Cotton and GP TT come to mind.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Oct 2, 18 18:02
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Re: Velosense [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to be forgetting the very high correlation between power demand as predicted from wind tunnel measurements and actual power required under very windy conditions in the field.

"In God we trust - everyone else must bring data." - W. Edwards Deming
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the sort of thing I am thinking about/the sort of data that needs to be considered when deciding just how frequently yaw should be measured:

https://aip.scitation.org/...1969?journalCode=phf
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Oh, I know. I've seen your work on the subject and others. My own field testing correlated well with my trip to A2. We're chasing really marginal stuff here. The last step of the optimization process is for a manufacturer to optimize a tire/wheel/frame system to eek out a watt or two... or maybe five. Tops. Specialized was the one brand I had pegged to take on that development path with the new Shiv but, sadly, that appears to not be the case.

I suppose the final frontier for TT bikes is comfort.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:

you must've seen these guys at eurobike? i saw them at interbike. sounds like you saw what i saw. i saw a graph that showed yaws, degrees of yaw across time and pretty wild swings, and i mean a swing back and forth every second or two, as if just the action of steering the bike created changes in yaw. they disputed that this was the cause (and there is pretty compelling math that they're right, because it's very easy to demonstrate the exact degrees your front wheel turns to the left and right during steering. however, it isn't how much the wheel turns relative to the frame; but to the ground (to the line you're holding)


Actually, it's about how much it turns relative to the apparent wind ;-)

But, what value would you term as "wild"? 10 degrees? 20??

I only ask because in my own (admittedly somewhat limited) playing around with an Alphamantis Aerostick (mounted on handlebars), the only time I saw what I would term "wild" yaw swings (i.e. on the order of 10-20deg larger than the nominal) was when performing a low speed, 180 degree turn, in which there would be a large yaw swing in one direction at the start of the turn, followed by another in the opposite direction as the bars returned to center. While riding along in a straight line, the sample by sample variation was much smaller.

For example, here's a data section with one such 180 degree turn:


please bear in mind i have no idea what i'm talking about. that stipulated...

what i don't see on your graph is the time increments along the x axis. so, each triangle is representative of - what? - maybe 1sec, or 2sec? (wild guesses.)

now, you see these oscillations, and it seems like what you're getting is a pair of yaws that are 4° from each other, or 2° off of centerline in each direction. what i think you're reading from john above is maybe 4x that sort of swing. he can correct me if i'm wrong.

this is what i referred to. this is what got me to stop as i was walking by the booth. that chart, printed on an 8.5"x11" paper, that looked just like yours, except yours looked like a 3 on the richter scale and his looked like an 8. and then i thought of your good friend and mine hambini. whom i have not alerted to the existence of this thread yet. because i thought we could have some quiet time with john first.

but maybe i'm not interpreting all this properly.

Yeah...each point is a 1s reading from the WASP utility app (I read out the Aerostick through a WASP-n ANT+ bridge, which is then connected to an iPhone 5 running the WASP utility app). Now then...as I understand it, the Alphamantis Aerostick is broadcasting ANT+ packets at either 4 or 8Hz, but what I DON'T know is if each of those packets is an average or a downsampled value...and furthter, I don't know if the WASP utility is then further averaging or just downsampling for the 1Hz recordings.

Anyway...what I need to do is try to determine the "noise" in the reading. In other words, given a known non-varying yaw input at a non-zero wind speed, how much does the device just naturally vary? You can't just cap off the end (I tried this) and see how it does, because the yaw reading is based on a pressure differential, and if the pressure (i.e.wind speed) signal is small, well...then the angle estimation can vary all over the place just from instrument noise...make sense? Since I don't have a small wind tunnel to calibrate that, maybe I'll try mounting it on a car mirror and see what happens :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [AeroTech] [ In reply to ]
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There's a reason you're sampling at 200Hz though, and it's because you are not getting 200 accurate measurements per second out of your ICs!
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Re: Velosense [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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chicanery wrote:
Some of the best yaw data I have gathered is with string and a GoPro, as the string doesn't have a limitation on the angles it can express.
Curiously, that’s exactly how I started out 6 years ago! I then moved to using a vane as it meant I had more freedom positioning the camera and measurement bit. Then I just added a pickup on the end of the vane shaft to get direct measurements with higher resolution. It also meant I could up the sample rate. I’m aware that there is some damping with a vane, but the frequency response is pretty good. Using a vane also has side benefits of low speed performance and relatively straightforward calibration/ datum setting.

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ease of use.

As I understand you need for the Velosense, as for the Aeropod, a speed sensor.
And that is a step back for me. After all the hassle with spokemagnets and interference from overland power lines and so I am very glad since a couple of years now to have finally rather a stable speedometer thanks to GPS.

This is what the Aeropod and Velosense should have: internal GPS for speed. (I guess it is not possible to get the speed from another GPS device: which is in fact the reason that use must be made of the archaic speed sensor).

One should also not forget that the Velosense and Aeropod do not show a true CdA: if you go from smooth tarmac to rough tarmac the measured CdA changes (as I understand the devices) although the real CdA stays the same of course.

Nevertheless great stuff, although I probably would rather spend my time on training (I do not even have a PM upto yet).
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Re: Velosense [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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GPS sucks for speed measurements.
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Re: Velosense [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GreenPlease wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
A question that I have been pondering: how long does the wind have to be coming from a particular yaw angle before it "counts"?

Obviously, an instrument with a very low temporal resolution will only provide a measure of the central tendency, whereas one with much higher temporal resolution will record greater variation. If, however, the wind comes from an angle for too brief of time to alter the overall drag, then such fluctuations aren't really relevant.

(In wind tunnel design and validation, a distinction is made between longer-term fluctuations in overall wind speed and shorter-term variations in turbulence, with the cut-off between the two based on how long it takes the air to flow past an object... I need to go revisit how those calculations are made )


I think the answer is that all time "counts" as far as energy expenditure is concerned thus the higher the sampling rate, however "noisy", the better. Given the shape of most yaw distributions we have and the fact that most samples have been taken at ~1hz (iirc) I think we can safely conclude that the resulting yaw distribution skews low. Maybe not much, but at least a bit.

I'll throw this out there: Josh Portner (Silca/Zipp) recently let an interesting tidbit slip. Zipp did some testing where they went from 30 degrees to 0 degrees to see when the flow would reattach and they found that reattachment did not occur at the same angle as detachment for the rims they tested. Instead they found that flow didn't reattach until a lower yaw for most rims. He also hinted that shapes that performed better at higher yaws saw their flow reattach sooner when going from 30 to 0 degrees. For most modern rim/tire combinations we see today flow seems to detach around 12-15 degrees. For all the modeling that's been done (that I'm aware of) it has been assumed that a given wheel's performance from 0-20 degrees is the same as its performance from 20-0 degrees. Separation is admittedly rare for most riders but, again, this is a consideration that might be biasing us toward low yaws in design and equipment selection.

Something that has always bothered me, personally, is that we test in the tunnel with the front wheel perfectly aligned with the frame when, in reality, the wheel is constantly moving a few degrees back and forth from zero. If I had the time, I'd figure out a way to hook up a servo encoder to my headset to gather data.

...rambling here....

If we think about what happens when a side wind hits a rider, the wind tilts the rider/bike away from the direction of the wind which causes the front wheel to turn back into the wind. The rider then counteracts this and resets the system. In this instance, if you had two different yaw sensors attached to the bike at two different places (the handlebars and, say, the top tube) you'd get two different readings for two different parts of the system. If I'm thinking about this correctly the frame would see a higher yaw than the front wheel. The unknown for most of us is how the front wheel down tube system works when the two aren't aligned. It would seem to me the most pragmatic approach would be to include the steering deviation (1, 2, maybe 3 degrees) from center and add that to the yaw distribution that the wheel "sees" as the goal is for the flow to stay attached to the front wheel and then transition smoothly to the down tube.

Wrapping up my ramble here...

In light of the forgoing, perhaps we should be looking more closely at the performance of our equipment at higher yaws.

Edit: this might also make one reconsider tire selection as some fast rolling tires really hinder the performance of a wheel at higher yaws. The Turbo Cotton and GP TT come to mind.

couple things. first, yes, the frame and the front wheel will each see different yaws. but no, the frame will not see a higher yaw. the act of steering requires the front wheel to see a higher yaw.

but there are 3 "yaws": 1. the apparent wind; 2. the frame; 3. the front wheel. which means when you attach any sort of a gauge to the front wheel, showing its angular variance from the frame, you're not seeing its total angular variance from the apparent wind, because the frame also is at variance from it.

second, when you bring up your point about the point of attachment/reattachment above, this is (to me) the lost dynamic in wind tunnel testing. i'm willing to concede to all you guys who are much smarter than me that tunnel testing closely matches road dynamics in the broad sense. what animates me much more today, tho, is the capacity to handle the bike, and the abrupt changes in steering torque when the wheel abruptly stalls just to rediscover laminar flow. or whatever terms i should be using if i knew anything.

tom is going to find out whether his device's output lops off the high points in the chart and how much is lopped off. but, i think if you listen to what john buckley says, that's not it. i believe he thinks his device has the capacity to see yaws that other devices don't (and so don't record). maybe this has big implications for which wheels are truly fast.

but we still are left with whether we can ride these wheels without crapping our pants.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
While I represent your comment (aka "rich old white dude")... I think your hyperbole is a bit over the top (and admittedly this may have been your objective). Yes, Triathlon doesn't appear to be growing... although I would argue with push into Asia there may be a small lag until the macro growth materially shows up... but I think Triathlon is far from dying. That said, please allow me to retort:

- Spartan races suck! I mean who wants to pretend to throw a spear. WTF is that about?
- Yes, bikes can be expensive. Yet, for those that need/want more cost-effective options... the Tri community has done a solid job with secondary markets
- Power meters, trainers, shoes, etc. can also be expensive. True, but there is a health benefit that allows me to not only avoid long-term costly medical issues... allows me to maintain my health and extend my earning potential -- win/win
- Races have gotten more expensive... especially IM events. Again true... but some of us are happy to spend a couple hundred bucks to earn meaningful experiences. In the end, those experiences last much longer (and are more meaningful) than buying "stuff"

I understand that the younger generation may see the "old rich guys" like me ruining the sport. So be it... they wouldn't be the first generation to not appreciate their elders and the path they laid. But in the end, they will benefit from us shelling out our hard earned cash as we commoditize & democratize technology across the spectrum in Triathlon.

And for me personally... Triathlon is a great alternative and WAY cheaper than say... hookers and blow! So happy to spend my money on this obsession/hobby/sport!

(PS... sorry for the sloppy grammar... no offense meant)

In search of the righteous life... we all fall down
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Re: Velosense [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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motd2k wrote:
There's a reason you're sampling at 200Hz though, and it's because you are not getting 200 accurate measurements per second out of your ICs!

Correct. Lot's of intervening variables at play including those related to sensor noise, ADC, etc. My justification for the length scale of the fluctuation on the order of the size of the rider is that a single instantaneous point yaw measurement will vary across the entire body of the rider for any fluctuations that are on the order of the riders size or smaller. Thus, it would be more challenging to obtain a causal relationship between the instantaneous yaw and the overall drag if one was utilizing a single point measurement of yaw at too high of a data rate. That said, the level of the turbulence and is energy distribution in the frequency domain ought to also impact things like flow separation and re-attachment under stall vs non-stalled conditions of a portion of the bike/rider. If you assume the turbulence is isotropic, then a single point measurement at a higher rate would be useful for turbulence characterization in an attempt to classify how the flow responds to different conditions. and down the rabbit hole we go with never-ending intervening effects...

Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram
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Re: Velosense [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
longtrousers wrote:
Ease of use.

As I understand you need for the Velosense, as for the Aeropod, a speed sensor.
And that is a step back for me. After all the hassle with spokemagnets and interference from overland power lines and so I am very glad since a couple of years now to have finally rather a stable speedometer thanks to GPS.

This is what the Aeropod and Velosense should have: internal GPS for speed. (I guess it is not possible to get the speed from another GPS device: which is in fact the reason that use must be made of the archaic speed sensor).

As Andy points out, GPS-based speed isn't accurate enough and is too "noisy" for best results. Also, you're not limited to just speed sensors triggered by a magnet. Many of the current speed sensors are actually accelerometer based devices that clamp on to a wheel hub. However, even those aren't always as accurate as a simple wheel magnet and reed switch speed sensor...and, as RChung has pointed out often, the largest influence on measurement error in VE testing is in the wheel speed measurement.

Personally, I prefer to do field testing with a wheel with a PowerTap hub. That way, driveline loss uncertainty isn't an issue and the wheel speed measurement comes "for free" with the hub's internal magnet/reed switch sensor.

longtrousers wrote:
One should also not forget that the Velosense and Aeropod do not show a true CdA: if you go from smooth tarmac to rough tarmac the measured CdA changes (as I understand the devices) although the real CdA stays the same of course.

Well...the estimate of CdA is only as good as the assumptions that go into the calculation...and in these cases it's that the Crr remains constant. In the case you point out about going from smooth to rough tarmac, that assumption doesn't hold and the additional power "demand" is assigned in the calculation to increased aero drag. That said, there's no reason these devices can't be used in a manner that allows the for a given condition to be "teased out" from the CdA estimation.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Can I take advantage of your presence here and derail this thread a tiny bit? What is your preferred turbulence model for external aerodynamics simulations - particularly when there is a significant turbulent wake?

I just looked at this Daimer truck CFD analysis where they conclude the Spallart Allmaras DES model compared very favorably with wind tunnel tests at lower computational cost than an LES model, while RANS was off by 20%. It's 5 years old - would something like the k-omega-SST Improved Delayed Detached Eddy Simulation be better?

Thank you so much!!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Can I take advantage of your presence here and derail this thread a tiny bit? What is your preferred turbulence model for external aerodynamics simulations - particularly when there is a significant turbulent wake?

I just looked at this Daimer truck CFD analysis where they conclude the Spallart Allmaras DES model compared very favorably with wind tunnel tests at lower computational cost than an LES model, while RANS was off by 20%. It's 5 years old - would something like the k-omega-SST Improved Delayed Detached Eddy Simulation be better?

Thank you so much!!


My preferred model is no model. DNS is obviously the preferred choice in all cases. Now, once you have some kind of computational resource limitation, then you enter the realm of (in order of computational cost): (i) LES with some kind of subgrid scale model, (ii) DDES - implemented with k-w SST, (iii) Spalart Allmaras DDES, (iv) probably some others like SAS which is an improved URANS model, and (v) RANS.

The one other item in here that I did not mention in here is the concept of under-resolved DNS. Letting the length scale of the grid do the filtering for you and have no subgrid scale model.
You can hand pick papers that support anything here, e.g., some show RANS does well, some show LES does terribly, some show DES does well. You really need to first have a clearly defined objective for the project/simulation and then decide. (e.g., is the turbulent wake interacting with an object of interest? if so, you are probably better of with DDES or LES). Is the body that is generating the turbulent wake made of sharp corners with clearly defined separation points? if so, then DDES is fine since the simulation will have a clear location to transition between kw-SST and LES. If the body is smooth and you have complex free stream pressure gradients, then separation points may not be predicted adequately with kw-SST.
Edit: under-resolved DNS is also called Implicit LES depending on the paper.

Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram
Last edited by: AeroTech: Oct 3, 18 7:29
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info on speed measuring: did not know that GPS measuring is not accurate enough for these purposes. For "normal" use I find GPS very good, and easy is that it is independent of wheel circumference. It just always works.
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
I prefer to do field testing with a wheel with a PowerTap hub. That way, driveline loss uncertainty isn't an issue

...unless you shift gears (sensitivity of the strain gages varies across the cassette).
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [AeroTech] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks! Computational cost is important because I hope to use it for design iterations prior to going to the wind tunnel and I don't want to take forever. Separation points are not always real obvious. Would this point toward LES? DNS I think is not really an option.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
when you bring up your point about the point of attachment/reattachment above, this is (to me) the lost dynamic in wind tunnel testing. i'm willing to concede to all you guys who are much smarter than me that tunnel testing closely matches road dynamics in the broad sense. what animates me much more today, tho, is the capacity to handle the bike, and the abrupt changes in steering torque when the wheel abruptly stalls just to rediscover laminar flow. or whatever terms i should be using if i knew anything.

The only reason that you believe that is because most reports don't include forces in all directions. They are certainly measured/measurable in a wind tunnel, though, and studies that have reported them reveal why, e.g., the classic DuPont three-spoke wheel can be difficult to control under gusty conditions.
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Re: Velosense [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, lots of runners also place unjustified faith in GPS...apparently they have never actually looked at their recorded tracks.
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

but there are 3 "yaws": 1. the apparent wind; 2. the frame; 3. the front wheel. which means when you attach any sort of a gauge to the front wheel, showing its angular variance from the frame, you're not seeing its total angular variance from the apparent wind, because the frame also is at variance from it.

Actually, there's only one "yaw", and it's caused by the apparent wind...However, there's varying frames of reference to that apparent wind angle ;-)

Slowman wrote:
second, when you bring up your point about the point of attachment/reattachment above, this is (to me) the lost dynamic in wind tunnel testing. i'm willing to concede to all you guys who are much smarter than me that tunnel testing closely matches road dynamics in the broad sense. what animates me much more today, tho, is the capacity to handle the bike, and the abrupt changes in steering torque when the wheel abruptly stalls just to rediscover laminar flow. or whatever terms i should be using if i knew anything.

Yes, all the available data and experience shows us that at best, those types of effects are an exceedingly small contributor to the overall power demand. In other words, data taken in "steady" conditions does a REALLY good job when used as a performance model input. So, overly emphasizing that behavior in an evaluation test seems a bit "over the top", and not really representative of the differences in performance expected out on the road. To quote Chris Yu, "Is the juice really worth the squeeze?" Perhaps it is in reference to handling, as you point out...but, it's hard to make the case that it's important from a pure speed and power demand standpoint.


Slowman wrote:
tom is going to find out whether his device's output lops off the high points in the chart and how much is lopped off.

I think you misunderstood, and I'm sorry if I was unclear...what I intend to determine is what is the inherent "noise" in the yaw measurement for my Aerostick device. In other words, you're pointing at 2-4 deg "oscillations" as indicative of something that's actually happening at the wheel, and I'm trying to figure out how much of that (0.5 deg? 1 deg? Something else) is just measurement noise. I don't believe it's "lopping off" any high yaws, since as I showed in the plot above, I can easily cause it to record high yaw angles just by performing a 180 turn at low speed.

One of the things that Specialized's Ingmar Jungnickel reminded us (myself, Ray and Robert) during our visit a few weeks back is that the accuracy of these devices (which are really just measuring pressure differentials) is much lower at lower wind speeds than at higher. It's an important thing to keep in mind when discussing the results and plots.

Slowman wrote:
but, i think if you listen to what john buckley says, that's not it. i believe he thinks his device has the capacity to see yaws that other devices don't (and so don't record).

As I currently understand the device, it's configuration allows for a much more linear response over a wider range than typical multi-port pitot tube devices (like the Aerostick). That's great...but, it also doesn't mean that the output of an Aerostick isn't applicable for a large majority of use cases...it just means that the device will have a better chance of accurately capturing those rare "corner cases".

Slowman wrote:
maybe this has big implications for which wheels are truly fast.

Maybe...then again, maybe not. Like I said above, data taken in "steady" conditions does a really good job of modeling actual performance.


Slowman wrote:
but we still are left with whether we can ride these wheels without crapping our pants.

Well, to be fair, that's not always JUST on the wheel itself...IME, other equipment (and positioning) choices can have a big effect on the "ride-ability" of a given wheel. Things like running a rear disc, the geometry and trail of the front end of the bike, a comfortable bar position, etc...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
I prefer to do field testing with a wheel with a PowerTap hub. That way, driveline loss uncertainty isn't an issue


...unless you shift gears (sensitivity of the strain gages varies across the cassette).

That's also true of crank based power meters...ALONG with the varying driveline losses. So, at least the PT hub is eliminating part of the issues.

Of course, that's also a good reason for my selection of courses that allow for coasting (actually, soft-pedaling) during the high speed sections (i.e. a half-pipe). Power meters tend to do a REALLY precise AND accurate recording of zero power...and lots of those values in a run tend to reduce the effects of inaccuracies in the power meter measurements ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
I think you misunderstood, and I'm sorry if I was unclear...what I intend to determine is what is the inherent "noise" in the yaw measurement for my Aerostick device. In other words, you're pointing at 2-4 deg "oscillations" as indicative of something that's actually happening at the wheel, and I'm trying to figure out how much of that (0.5 deg? 1 deg? Something else) is just measurement noise. I don't believe it's "lopping off" any high yaws, since as I showed in the plot above, I can easily cause it to record high yaw angles just by performing a 180 turn at low speed.


right. if you paperboy the yaws will be larger, because even smoothing the yaws will not flatten them in that case. i thought i understood you to say that perhaps the aerostick smoothed the data and that accounts for the difference in the graphs produced by aerostick and velosense.

what i'm asking is whether that is the case, or whether the two devices actually detect a much greater amplitude in the apparent wind the front of the bike (forward of the steering axis) sees.

Tom A. wrote:
Well, to be fair, that's not always JUST on the wheel itself...IME, other equipment (and positioning) choices can have a big effect on the "ride-ability" of a given wheel. Things like running a rear disc, the geometry and trail of the front end of the bike, a comfortable bar position, etc...

of course. but i think we all agree - do we not? - that once we've chosen our bike and position the big variable is the front wheel. what we typically take to a race, if we take a second anything, is a second front wheel (assuming we know that our rear wheel, and our bike, is going to certainly be legal). frames, rear wheels, steering geometry, position, weight displacement, center of mass, all may and probably do affect handling. hydration systems, and anything else attached to the steer column (instead of the frame). the only product that really interests me is the new ceepo bike, because it has the capacity to damp steering torque. but i digress.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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... which is why you (I) don't shift gears, that source of variation.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
...the only product that really interests me is the new ceepo bike, because it has the capacity to damp steering torque. but i digress.


As long as we're digressing...on the subject of damping steering, I think I've mentioned this before but I acquired a used version of this Hopey steering damper product (damps excursions away from center, free on return to center) that I've always wanted to try on the front end of a TT bike, with the hope (pun intended) that it would even allow the "comfortable" use of a front disc wheel outside :-)

http://www.hopey.org/tt-triathalon.php

(Oooh...I see they appear to have mounts now for integrated headset cups...I may get my chance to finally test it out on my NP2 or Stinner!)

So, I guess there's more than one way to tackle this "issue" ;-)

I just realized...it would be interesting to see the yaw recordings from a ride where that damper was turned on and off. That would be one way to gauge how much steering input has an affect on the yaw measurements, and how much a damper does, or does not change things. Hmmmm....

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 3, 18 8:52
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Re: Velosense [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would like to add to AeroTech’s post: whatever model you choose really make sure your mesh is up to the task, therefore of high quality and walls are accordingly modeled. Do mesh convergence tests. Compare different models, verify your model and meshing parameters with validation cases. Double check your mesh. This may sound pedantic, but garbage in - garbage out...
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
...the only product that really interests me is the new ceepo bike, because it has the capacity to damp steering torque. but i digress.


As long as we're digressing...on the subject of damping steering, I think I've mentioned this before but I acquired a used version of this Hopey steering damper product (damps excursions away from center, free on return to center) that I've always wanted to try on the front end of a TT bike, with the hope (pun intended) that it would even allow the "comfortable" use of a front disc wheel outside :-)

http://www.hopey.org/tt-triathalon.php

(Oooh...I see they appear to have mounts now for integrated headset cups...I may get my chance to finally test it out on my P3!)

So, I guess there's more than one way to tackle this "issue" ;-)

I just realized...it would be interesting to see the yaw recordings from a ride where that damper was turned on and off. That would be one way to gauge how much steering input has an affect on the yaw measurements, and how much a damper does, or does not change things. Hmmmm....

i HATE that product. that isn't a steering damper. it's a steering inhibitor. but it does bring to mind something about steering geometry. i find that over the years a lot of bike makers think intuitively but in so doing choose a solution that requires counterintuitive thinking. the steering in tri bikes should not be slow. it should be reasonably quick. not superquick, road race quick, but semi-quick, as in 59mm to 60mm of trail. when you get buffeted, and have to countersteer to overcome a change in steering torque, you need to be able to react quickly. the bike needs to respond quickly.

it's intuitive to think that a quick responding bike is less stable, more prone to speed wobble, but i find that a system's stiffness is what avoids speed wobble, rather than its tendency to self-center thru jamming in a bunch of trail.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
FWIW, lots of runners also place unjustified faith in GPS...apparently they have never actually looked at their recorded tracks.

Why would looking at their tracks make any difference?

GPS speed gets a bad rep, it's not entirely deserved.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
.. it is easier to build different geos for different users & cases than finding one optimization for the majority, I really hopefully guess .. (what the last can mean have pros to cope with theses days ..)

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Oct 3, 18 9:45
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Re: Velosense [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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It should be obvious to anyone who has ever looked at their GPS track from a run that recorded points are often incorrect (e.g., showing you running in the street, when you know you only ran on the sidewalk). Since speed = delta position/time, it therefore follows that speed will also be incorrect - in fact, speed is often impacted to an even greater degree, as both starting and ending points are mis-recorded.

ETA: Here is a randomly-chosen example (last run my wife did). Note how the recorded path deviates from the actual path connecting Bulldog Drive to the neighborhood. This is what often happens even at slower running speeds in wide-open terrain using a modern running watch. Now imagine how bad things can be when attempting to estimate cycling speed under less-than-ideal conditions (e.g., tree cover).


Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 3, 18 10:15
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
but we still are left with whether we can ride these wheels without crapping our pants

I 100% agree with you on this point. As a rule, when people ask for “what wheel” to buy here on the forums I guide them toward 60mm and shallower options with the rationale being that if it’s not windy the low yaw differences are minimal but if it is windy they might lose more “watts” by having to be on the base bar or fight their bike. Plus the intangible (but real) cost of being mentally exhausted when you go out onto the run.
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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GPS speed isn't derived from the position data
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,

I'm Barney, cofounder of Velosense, and I was interested to see your data. I dont know the details of the sensor you used, but I think worth a few comments.

Of course wind varies massively by geographical position and current weather, so we can't say what the norm is, but we have seen substantial swings in yaw angle - we are putting together a graph similar to yours to show this, and will be similar to what we showed Dan at Interbike.

Clearly we arent measuring the same conditions, so we can't compare our results to yours directly, but worth considering what else may cause differences in our results.

For our current development we are sampling at about 27Hz, which is as fast as we can log over Ant currently (Ant+ on a production unit would be substantially slower than this, perhaps 2-4Hz). This data seems to well resolve typical gusts, which can cause <1s fluctuations in wind speed and angle. At 27Hz we are getting multiple points through each cycle of the waveform. It looks like your data is at a much lower rate, perhaps 1Hz? If so, perhaps the Alphamantis sensor is internally doing some averaging across each time step, meaning it will smooth out these higher frequency fluctuations (if they indeed exist).

Could of course also be that you weren't seeing large fluctuations that day - if there isn't much wind, or there aren't many obstacles near you then there will be less large scale turbulence in the air to cause these fluctuations.

This data is really byproduct of our main thrust of being able to accurately measure drag on the road, but it has (to our surprise) highlighted how large the fluctuations are that you can see, and so the importance of having a sensor whose yaw angle range covers those fluctuations if you are going to accurately measure the average wind.

As I said, John will post some of our data on this forum, and we will keep looking at this aspect of our data and posting our findings as we go. We are always interested to hear your thoughts.
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Re: Velosense [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No, it is based on Doppler shift, but it is subject to the same sources of error (e.g., timing).

The bottom line is that GPS sucks for speed measurements. That's why you can't get decent field-test data using one for aero testing. That's also why you're calculated pace on a sports watch bounces around far more than reality when running.
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Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This hysteresis of separation/reattachment is I think likely to be a significant issue and why we are interested in the wind yaw results we have been getting so far. I used to be a trackside aerodynamicist in F1 and we would measure pressures on parts of the car in real-time because we frequently saw this sort of issue, where they could have a significant effect. For example we would try to design the diffuser so it separates on the straight where the high speed, high downforce pushes the diffuser close to the ground in order to save drag. Trick is to have it reattach under braking when the rear lifts up again so the rear wheels have enough downforce to get round the corner. Occasionally this wouldnt happen because of this hysteresis, and at least twice I have seen high speed accidents where a driver has gone into a corner without any rear downforce due to this hysteresis and spun into the barriers.

This is a stark reminder that the wind tunnel is a model of reality and as Dan says misses many dynamics of cycling on the road.

So going back to the wind issue, it is likely that a fluctuating wind yaw angle produces a higher mean drag than a constant wind yaw angle if the fluctuations push the wheel over their separation angle. It is something that we can't easily study in the wind tunnel, so will be an interesting area to explore in road testing.

Real-world aero testing we believe is going to become very important in cycling aero - once we establish a level of confidence in our data, we can start looking at physical differences between the wind tunnel and the road.

We will post some of our real-time wind yaw data on this forum later today.
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Re: Velosense [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
No, it is based on Doppler shift, but it is subject to the same sources of error (e.g., timing).

The bottom line is that GPS sucks for speed measurements. That's why you can't get decent field-test data using one for aero testing. That's also why you're calculated pace on a sports watch bounces around far more than reality when running.

Respectfully, implemented correct (or even, reasonable correctly!), it really doesn't! Multipath and timing errors have very little impact on the Doppler shift.
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Re: Velosense [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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bgarrood wrote:
Hi Tom,

I'm Barney, cofounder of Velosense, and I was interested to see your data. I dont know the details of the sensor you used, but I think worth a few comments.

Of course wind varies massively by geographical position and current weather, so we can't say what the norm is, but we have seen substantial swings in yaw angle - we are putting together a graph similar to yours to show this, and will be similar to what we showed Dan at Interbike.

Clearly we arent measuring the same conditions, so we can't compare our results to yours directly, but worth considering what else may cause differences in our results.

Hi Barney,
That example I posted above was just a snippet of some data I have and was selected to show how it takes quite dramatic handlebar movements (turning into, and then out of, a low-speed, 180 degree turn) for the Aerostick to see what I would consider "wild" swings of measured yaw angle. It wasn't intended to be a summary of the typical ride data.

bgarrood wrote:
For our current development we are sampling at about 27Hz, which is as fast as we can log over Ant currently (Ant+ on a production unit would be substantially slower than this, perhaps 2-4Hz). This data seems to well resolve typical gusts, which can cause <1s fluctuations in wind speed and angle. At 27Hz we are getting multiple points through each cycle of the waveform. It looks like your data is at a much lower rate, perhaps 1Hz? If so, perhaps the Alphamantis sensor is internally doing some averaging across each time step, meaning it will smooth out these higher frequency fluctuations (if they indeed exist).

Yeah...that's what I was trying to explain. I don't know the details of the inner workings of the Alphamantis setup, and so those questions I have about averaging vs. downsampling (or whatever) are present. I also don't know if the app I'm using to record the results is doing so either. In the end, all I get is a 1Hz recorded .csv file.

bgarrood wrote:
This data is really byproduct of our main thrust of being able to accurately measure drag on the road, but it has (to our surprise) highlighted how large the fluctuations are that you can see, and so the importance of having a sensor whose yaw angle range covers those fluctuations if you are going to accurately measure the average wind.

As I said, John will post some of our data on this forum, and we will keep looking at this aspect of our data and posting our findings as we go. We are always interested to hear your thoughts.

That will be interesting to see, although what has been mentioned recently here on the forum is that "steady-state" wind tunnel data does quite a good job at modeling "outdoor" power demands, even when the outside riding is done under quite variable conditions.



As taken from this classic published study:
http://cdmbuntu.lib.utah.edu/utils/getf ... e/5200.pdf

As Andy Coggan likes to point out, that data implies that any additional drag caused by those yaw variations (and any separation/reattachment effects) would only account for ~3% of the total power demand at most.

In then end though, I completely agree that better measurement tools are always...well...better :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Tom,
I agree with you that it is unlikely that these fluctuations are going to be a second order effect and are unlikely to undermine wind tunnel results. I think it will be interesting to see if those second order effects can make the difference between which set of wheel is best for a particular set of conditions for instance.
Last edited by: bgarrood: Oct 3, 18 11:58
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
(Part 1)
Hello,
Here is a quick post to display some data taken on a day with wind generally below 5mph. The section of data taken is a hill we use for some testing which has hedgerows on each side. I have shown a trace of airspeed (in meter per second, absolute magnitude, not in direction of the bike) and yaw angle (degrees relative to the bike). I have included the raw sample rate which is 26 hz and a 1hz moving average. You can see that for this data the average yaw angle is close to zero, though brief spikes of crosswind of +/- 10 degrees.

The next picture will show a 5s zoom on the same plot.

You can see that the sensor can detect local spikes that a 1hz moving average will not detect.
The plot below shows a high crosswind condition between 11 to 14 degrees.

The following post will show what the speed and angle channels look like in the wind tunnel.

John Buckley
https://streamlines.aero
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
(Part 2)
We can compare this to wind tunnel data which shows an angle sweep below, showing that in clean air the device signal is extremely stable.

Zooming in on an angle change, you can see the change between angles. Note that the windtunnel turntable does not move in an entirely smooth manner.


John Buckley
https://streamlines.aero
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:

i HATE that product. that isn't a steering damper. it's a steering inhibitor. but it does bring to mind something about steering geometry. i find that over the years a lot of bike makers think intuitively but in so doing choose a solution that requires counterintuitive thinking. the steering in tri bikes should not be slow. it should be reasonably quick. not superquick, road race quick, but semi-quick, as in 59mm to 60mm of trail. when you get buffeted, and have to countersteer to overcome a change in steering torque, you need to be able to react quickly. the bike needs to respond quickly.

it's intuitive to think that a quick responding bike is less stable, more prone to speed wobble, but i find that a system's stiffness is what avoids speed wobble, rather than its tendency to self-center thru jamming in a bunch of trail.

On the subject of speed wobbles...check this out: https://vimeo.com/213107209

That looks somewhat interesting as well...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:


i HATE that product. that isn't a steering damper. it's a steering inhibitor. but it does bring to mind something about steering geometry. i find that over the years a lot of bike makers think intuitively but in so doing choose a solution that requires counterintuitive thinking. the steering in tri bikes should not be slow. it should be reasonably quick. not superquick, road race quick, but semi-quick, as in 59mm to 60mm of trail. when you get buffeted, and have to countersteer to overcome a change in steering torque, you need to be able to react quickly. the bike needs to respond quickly.

it's intuitive to think that a quick responding bike is less stable, more prone to speed wobble, but i find that a system's stiffness is what avoids speed wobble, rather than its tendency to self-center thru jamming in a bunch of trail.


On the subject of speed wobbles...check this out: https://vimeo.com/213107209

That looks somewhat interesting as well...

i'm always interested in new products that fix problems. but i still maintain that if a system (frame, fork, stem, etc.) is sufficiently stiff, and the bike is made remotely properly, speed wobble shouldn't happen.

here's damon's famous speed wobble inducement video:



i wonder if cane creek resorted to this for their video? and what would happen if they did that same thing with the damping headset installed?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Oct 3, 18 15:04
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Very interesting! Thank you for sharing. Out of curiosity, what were approximate wind speeds in the "high crosswind" condition? 10-15mph?
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The known steady-state condition test (wind tunnel) implies that the measurements taken outside may have that actual variability.

Of course, your 1Hz averaged data now makes me wonder even more if the 1Hz data reported by the WASP utility app is averaged or sampled. If it's the former, then it means the Aerostick output is "smoothed"...but, if it's merely downsampled, then it wouldn't be that smoothed. I really need to see if I can find that out from NPE...

Now then...one other thing I was reminded of recently is that certain pressure sensors have some vibration sensitivity due to their construction. So then, my next question would be: How do we know we aren't seeing road vibration noise?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:


i HATE that product. that isn't a steering damper. it's a steering inhibitor. but it does bring to mind something about steering geometry. i find that over the years a lot of bike makers think intuitively but in so doing choose a solution that requires counterintuitive thinking. the steering in tri bikes should not be slow. it should be reasonably quick. not superquick, road race quick, but semi-quick, as in 59mm to 60mm of trail. when you get buffeted, and have to countersteer to overcome a change in steering torque, you need to be able to react quickly. the bike needs to respond quickly.

it's intuitive to think that a quick responding bike is less stable, more prone to speed wobble, but i find that a system's stiffness is what avoids speed wobble, rather than its tendency to self-center thru jamming in a bunch of trail.


On the subject of speed wobbles...check this out: https://vimeo.com/213107209

That looks somewhat interesting as well...

So... thick grease and some machining? Not a bad idea if it works.
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Re: Velosense [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:


i HATE that product. that isn't a steering damper. it's a steering inhibitor. but it does bring to mind something about steering geometry. i find that over the years a lot of bike makers think intuitively but in so doing choose a solution that requires counterintuitive thinking. the steering in tri bikes should not be slow. it should be reasonably quick. not superquick, road race quick, but semi-quick, as in 59mm to 60mm of trail. when you get buffeted, and have to countersteer to overcome a change in steering torque, you need to be able to react quickly. the bike needs to respond quickly.

it's intuitive to think that a quick responding bike is less stable, more prone to speed wobble, but i find that a system's stiffness is what avoids speed wobble, rather than its tendency to self-center thru jamming in a bunch of trail.


On the subject of speed wobbles...check this out: https://vimeo.com/213107209

That looks somewhat interesting as well...


So... thick grease and some machining? Not a bad idea if it works.

Damping plates and a "fluorocarbon gel" according to their literature...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [John Buckley] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for sharing this data. I am looking forward to see more. I am extremely pleased with the fact you shared the context under which the data was collected. Data without context can be framed any which way we want and that's something nobody wants here.

I really like the product. Instant feedback is a nice feature and if I had a reliable number to look at while I race, it would without doubt be a motivator to maintain form.

With regards to discussions around the impact of a flatter yaw distribution, as well a the transient nature of airflow, be it environmental or rider based, we will find some gains there from an equipment perspective, but the real prize here is around the evaluation of impacts from a rider position, movement and skin suit design perspective.

On the road data collection is not a panacea, nor is WT testing, they both work together. What matters is that we can truthfully measure our observations of the world so that they can be replicated in a controlled environment. That's how we win.
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Re: Velosense [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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This is exactly what I was eluding to on the tweet to DCR. A wind tunnel can't make a good sensor look bad, but it can make a bad sensor look good.
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Re: Velosense [motd2k] [ In reply to ]
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You are totally right to question the effect of vibration on the sensors. Coming from an F1 background, which is an exceptionally challenging environment for vibration, we are particularly sensitive to this problem but have experience in mitigating the problems it presents.


We have done tests where we run several sensors in a sealed bottle on the bike to understand how real world vibration affects the sensor output. In the end we have chosen sensors with the lowest sensitivity to vibration that we could find, and mounted them in a way that mitigates what little vibration effect there is. We can say with confidence that these variations in flow velocity and yaw angle are not coming from the effect of vibration on the sensors.
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Re: Velosense [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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bgarrood wrote:
You are totally right to question the effect of vibration on the sensors. Coming from an F1 background, which is an exceptionally challenging environment for vibration, we are particularly sensitive to this problem but have experience in mitigating the problems it presents.


We have done tests where we run several sensors in a sealed bottle on the bike to understand how real world vibration affects the sensor output. In the end we have chosen sensors with the lowest sensitivity to vibration that we could find, and mounted them in a way that mitigates what little vibration effect there is. We can say with confidence that these variations in flow velocity and yaw angle are not coming from the effect of vibration on the sensors.

Excellent. Thanks for answering that!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velosense [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to say thanks for coming on and answering these questions. We can be a tough group and it’s nice to see someone willing to go into the weeds answering questions, instead of the “trust us we know this stuff”, that we sometimes get.
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Re: Velosense [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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Hello chicanery and All,

Interesting to see your comment about a yaw string (that is really old school, inexpensive, and low maintenance):

"Some of the best yaw data I have gathered is with string and a GoPro, as the string doesn't have a limitation on the angles it can express."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaw_string





Flight training in the T33 used a yaw string .... it worked great and seldom had maintenance problems.

How did you mount your yaw string and how did you record results?

After reading your comment I am going to add a yaw string to my bike to have a visual yaw reference .... now I need a simple way to measure pressure.

........ Or perhaps a different device than the string .... miniaturized to about the size of my thumb ... with a Garmin mount .... a lidar.

My cousin worked on some non classified devices at Aerospace Corp. that can identify different molecules at a distance (CO2 or toxic molecules for instance) and spoke about measuring wind speed and velocity at high altitudes from the ground ... or a sattelite.

A similar lidar could measure wind speed and velocity at different distances from the bicycle .... far enough away (a few feet or so ahead) to avoid localized effects of compression and perhaps reduce the inevitable changes induced when observing a phenomenon.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/...nd-speeds-from-space



Excerpt:

"It’s closing time for one of Earth observation’s most stubborn and critical data gaps: global wind speeds. A European Space Agency (ESA) satellite set for launch from French Guiana tomorrow—after nearly two decades of challenging engineering and a weather delay—will be the first to directly measure wind speed and direction, from Earth’s surface to the stratosphere.

Winds are key determinants of weather and climate, yet most wind data still comes from weather balloons. Readings from commercial jets supplement the balloons’ twice-daily samplings, along with estimates inferred from satellites that track moving clouds, atmospheric temperatures, and sea-surface roughness. The result is a patchy wind record that adds uncertainty to weather forecasts.

The new satellite, named Aeolus, will improve on these measurements by deploying a wind-sensing lidar in space for the first time. It is essentially the same light-pulsing object-detection technology that helps police enforce speed limits and autonomous vehicles navigate roads. But instead of detecting motion by pinging a car with laser light and measuring the Doppler shift in the photons reflected back, Aeolus will ping molecules and aerosols in the air from 320 kilometers above Earth."

https://arstechnica.com/...echnology-explained/


Excerpt:


"Lidar used to cost $75,000. Experts expect this to fall to less than $100."

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Oct 4, 18 19:49
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