I would say to place your anger on this "one" buyer, not on eBay. Of course there are some bad sellers and buyers out there, just part of doing business this way. That is why I like Craigslist for these bigger ticket items, nothing beats face to face sales and buys.

Sorry you ran into one of the bad ones, but there are much worse stories out there, people not getting their products paid for, people sending back damaged goods that you sent out pristine, and on and on. You are just out a few shipping dollars and can move on now. Wish your wheels were 650c, I would take them!!!

yeah I hate selling on ebay... usually dont have problems with returns, more with bidders not actually paying.

unfortunately at the end of the day, there's not a lot to keep a buyer from getting "buyer's remorse" and making a claim. Did you list them with no returns?

You could possibly do battle through ebay, it's not hard to prove that an H3D exists... mileage is one of those things on bikes/parts that's impossible to represent accurately anyways. Of course, as you say Ebay is very, very protective/favoring of the buyer.

I used to sell a fair amount of stuff (mainly Magic cards) and any time something similar came up (which happened mainly because unless a card is professionally graded then condition is a bit subjective) I asked myself... "what's the best case scenario outcome for me if I fight this?" I don't sell anything on ebay these days.

I feel you, good luck with the sale moving on.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Yes, listed no returns. Once they file a claim you are doomed though. I went through the same thing with a pair of $25 tri shoes that I sold to someone at a shipping cost of 25. I basically gave them to him for free and then he filed a claim against me.........

It is very frustrating given that the buyer is totally untethered from reality. I am trying to convince him to keep the wheels not so much to avoid the PIA of returning them, but because he truly did get an incredible deal but fails to realize it out of own ignorance. People suck, so they say.

Bummer. I use eBay as a last resort when selling if I'm not able to sell it on Facebook's Online Swap Meet or here first.

One thing I do when selling on eBay or even Facebook if I'm not meeting the person face to face is to be sure to message the person and include one-off details even if it's already included in the listing. So your example would be making sure they knew the difference in the rims and that they were tubular. My rationale is if they open a not as described case, you've at least got additional documentation that not only did you ad say it, but you informed the buyer separately.

The old joke used to be "Ebay, where you can buy an item new, use it for 45 days, then send it back for a full refund plus shipping."

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Thanks. Good tip. I think I am going to take a ton of pics going forward too. I this instance I should have listed pics of the hub body to show that the splines were in like new shape and thus backing up my claim of limited use.

I had one buyer who made the "not as described" claim on a one-piece trisuit that I clearly described as used. I even listed that I used it in an Ironman and 2 x 70.3s, but after losing 5-ish pounds, it wasn't as tight as when new. He wanted to return it because there was bodyglide residue (maybe a stain) at the neck. eBay took my side because the description was clear that it was used.

I'll admit, it took significant effort, but there are times they'll side with the seller if your ad was clear.

Why are you stuck with return shipping? Is the buyer actually accusing you of a deceptive listing? If that's the case, can't you prove your side? ebay does typically favor the buyer but if they make false claims that can be disproved, you could fight it.

I dislike eBay for some of their other policies like ~10% final value fees including the shipping costs but that's another issue.

Hmm, you have given me hope. I may have to pursue.

Yeah I also take a lot of pictures after I've boxed it up (both before and after sealing the box) in case it gets damaged in transport or they claim it arrived damaged.

Your situation sucks, especially the $120 in extra shipping fees just on the outbound shipment.

If you do end up having to take these back and eat return shipping, you might want to see if you can generate a return label via bikeflights or shipbikes.com - they use FedEx but at significantly lower rates. I paid $25 to ship a gravel wheelset a few months back.

like others said, use BikeFlights.

with that said, I'd fight it. worst case you lose and have to take it back.

I feel your pain. Have sold a ton of stuff on eBay and have run into my fair share of scam artists as well as people who buy things without really looking into the details of what they are purchasing and then try to return it by making all sorts of false claims. You can have eBay rule in your favor but it is definitely an uphill battle.

It boils down in many ways to how detailed your original listing is, both in terms of the title, text, and images. The point about your buyer being unfamiliar with the "deep" model is complete BS assuming you actually had images of the rear wheel in the listing; if they looked they should have known what they were buying. And if your wheel still has the rubber mold marks on the tire you can document it when he returns the set to you and file and appeal with eBay. Again, it is an uphill battle but you can fight to have the buyer reimburse you the return shipping at least. Also, I list all my items with the clear indication that no returns will be accepted as a means of covering myself in situations like this.

Just as an FYI, I have had scam buyers claim that items I have sold (cameras, drones, etc.) have arrived broken etc. and force me to issue returns via eBay. When they arrive back to me intact and fully functional I have filed appeals with eBay and at the least have been able to re-coop my return shipping costs and in a few occasions actually had eBay force a partial payment on behalf of the buyer on the grounds of fraudulent claims.

The systems is definitely weighted against the sellers though. Best of luck.

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| DRINKsimple (friendofhoffman for 15% off) | The Cupcake Cartel |

"Yeah I also take a lot of pictures after I've boxed it up (both before and after sealing the box) in case it gets damaged in transport or they claim it arrived damaged"


eBay doesn't take those pictures into consideration when the buyer files a SNAD complaint. They automatically decide in the buyer's favor and the seller gets to pay return shipping.

I realize that, but it helps if I have to open an insurance claim against the shipper if it's damaged during transport (or the seller tries to say it was damaged because it wasn't packaged correctly).

The way that the Money Back Guarantee works is that the buyer has zero incentive to cooperate with your insurance claim, so you won't be able to collect on it.

No, but I haven't been selling much lately. On the other hand I still run into crappy *sellers* though. Even sellers with great feedback. People who try to make their item look better than it is and leave out important info, or just can't be bothered to describe it accurately. I think ebay's hard core policy is a reaction to so many people trying to pawn off junk and hoping the buyer won't notice or complain. That's much more difficult to do now.

But it cuts both ways, and now lazy buyers can simply change their minds and stick you with the bill. Or there are scam buyers who send back a different or damaged item. If you can't prove it, your screwed.

I disagree.

If a buyer files a SNAD complaint, how do you get the buyer to cooperate with an insurance claim?

I now hate e-bay. I sold a piece of electronic equipment. Brand new in box - never used. Half of MSRP. Buyer got it and said it was defective because the speakers distorted on a certain Kanye West song. WTF???. I filed an appeal and basically had the seller admitting that it was fine for all other music. Obviously not a defect, he was just cranking the bass too loud. Well, ebay agreed with him and made me pay to ship it back to me. Ebay screwed up somehow and shipped it to my old address that wasn't even on file anymore. It got shipped returned back to buyer and ebay told me they were done. Now the buyer had the refund and the equipment. I had to pay for a second return shipping from the buyer. I got the equipment, had it shipped to manufacturer and they said it was not defective. E-bay said decision final. So I am out $150 total in shipping and hours of aggravation. F-Ebay.

Long shot, but what is the buyers handle?

How do you handle an item that a buyer says is damaged during shipping since you're the expert?

Andres wrote:

Long shot, but what is the buyers handle?

Buyer Id:


rembertg


In fairness to him he has not been an asshole or abusive.

Found your completed auction. I know tubies are a harder sell, but surprised you aren't able to get the same price for those here on the forum. Nice wheels!!

Thanks. I had them listed but no bites. I could have done a better job with description and pics but I assumed that bidder would be familiar with them and recognize the value. It blows me away that the buyer is not happy with these for $600. I wonder what he thinks he is going to get that is going to be a better deal?

"How do you handle an item that a buyer says is damaged during shipping since you're the expert? "


When a buyer filed a SNAD complaint with eBay due to damage during shipping, I immediately accept the return.

Just for perspective, I have sold way over $10 million on eBay.

Do you insure packages before you ship them, and if so how do you then get reimbursed by the shipper in these scenarios?

"Do you insure packages before you ship them, and if so how do you then get reimbursed by the shipper in these scenarios?"


I never buy insurance.

Good to know. To answer your original question, I take pictures so that in cases like your scenario, I can use the pictures to help my claim with the shipper since I typically take out insurance on higher value items.

The pictures that you take are of the item in proper condition before you ship it, correct?

I don't take additional pictures of the item beyond what I use in the listing. I was replying to your original question related to my post about taking pictures of the items wrapped/packed out of the box, within the box, and the condition of the box itself prior to shipping, which I do for the main reason of if an insurance claim is needed.

My nightmare ebay experience was the sale of a set of "new bike takeoff" Mavic wheels that actually were never put on a bike. Brand new. Everything was cool until the buyer received the wheels, then the chain of messages went something like this:

- "These aren't $500 wheels. Mavic sells wheels in Europe under the same name for $375. I want $200 back!" (In fact, several years earlier, Mavic HAD sold a cheap wheelset in Europe under the same name -- but the photos online showed that they clearly were not the same wheels.)

- "These wheels are out of true. My LBS says it will cost $150 to fix these wheels. I want $150 for the truing, plus $50 for my trouble." (I knew the wheels were true when they left. But I called his LBS direct and negotiated truing services for $20. The guy never took them in.)

- "The rear hub on these wheels is sticky. The wheel won't even freewheel. A rear hub rebuild will cost $150. I will take $100 refund OR you can pay to have the wheels returned to you and refund me $100 for my trouble." (I called his LBS. This time I asked how many times they had talked with the guy. They didn't know him. Never heard of him. Hadn't talked with anyone recently about rebuilding a hub on a Mavic wheel. I refused to refund anything.)

- "I'm going to file a complaint with ebay!" (Go ahead.)

- "I'm REALLY going to file a complaint with ebay!" (I said, go ahead.)

- "I really mean it now. I'm going to file a complaint." (Go ahead. You'll need to have documentation for your story. I will have a story to tell them, too. Trying to cheat someone through the Internet / mail / telephone is a felony. Either file a complaint or leave me alone.)

- He left "neutral" feedback -- something like, "this seller knows nothing about bike parts."

That really hurt.

Beware selling to a guy with a Dallas hotel for his shipping address. I think he just wanted something for nothing.

All of these responses have been huge help. It kills me when I get victimized by assholes - I assume that the rest of the world acts in good faith. I spoke with ebay and it seems I may have some recourse, I assumed they would put a hold on my paypal but it seems like I may have some recourse at least for the time and hardship.

Hi 1Poseur1,

I'm wondering about the high shipping cost of $135 to ship two wheels. Did you ship by air? I worked 20 years at FedEx. Ground speed is getting very fast now at a fraction of the price. I recently used UPS and got 2 day ground service from Florida to Pennsylvania. You can also open a UPS or FedEx account and get discounts (I just saw a 34% discount through ebay on UPS shipping).

Sorry about your ebay experience. It used to be a go-to place. Now amazon fulfills that function.

Mark

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Fast-Finishes.com
Triathlon and Running Race Timing
Athletic Event Management

It shipped in two separate boxes - each wheel was in a factory wheelbox - 3 day ground.

Did you ship from a UPS Store?

" I was replying to your original question related to my post about taking pictures of the items wrapped/packed out of the box, within the box, and the condition of the box itself prior to shipping, which I do for the main reason of if an insurance claim is needed."


The problem with that is that the shipping companies don't care what everything looked like before you shipped the package.

They want to see the damage after the package was delivered to your buyer.

And an eBay buyer has no reason to take pictures or show it to the shipping company. They just file a SNAD complaint and get a full refund.

from FedEx store.

FedEx Stores also charge a higher than retail rate for shipping and they charge an arm and a leg for boxes and packaging.

I ship wheels in a double wheel box and it costs about $54 for guaranteed Ground service to zone 8.

Post script is that buyer has canceled the return and apologized for the inconvenience. He must have spoken with someone that convinced him that he was a stone cold moron for wanting to return.....

that's good news. I've definitely had annoyances selling on ebay. a few times regarding people's perception of "very good" condition. even with photos I've had people want a refund for something where there is a minor blemish in a place that you have to go looking for it

Post script is that buyer has canceled the return and apologized for the inconvenience. He must have spoken with someone that convinced him that he was a stone cold moron for wanting to return..... //

A 9/11 miracle, congratulations on the sale, as stressful as it was...

I'm currently dealing with a guy who wants a partial refund because he does not know how to measure ETT they same way the industry does. Fooken people are dumb.

I've had more people that didn't pay since this thread was started.

Then I have another turkey saying a used a stolen CC number to pay for an auction I won. I have the item and paypal shows I payed with existing paypal funds ? Even worse the person is not using ebay message to communicate , but my personal email and following me around on other cycling forums.

ebay member since 1999.... it's getting tiresome lately. I'd almost rather be low balled on craigslist. It's no wonder I have a garage full of stuff, because every time I try to clear it out... it's a joke.

"I've had more people that didn't pay since this thread was started"


I always use fixed price listings with immediate payment required.

yes.. I'm going to edit my auctions from now on....

in fact I just cancelled one of the wheelsets I was selling.... I will take advantage of Enve trade in days.. I should be no hassle. Less money and I have to pay nearly retail, but I dont need drama.

I read through the posts in the thread. But I am still confused to What was the end result, sounds like you have the wheels back in your possession and you paid the return shipping and refunded the buyer? Or are you still arguing with him and waiting on eBay to make a final decision?


What is your eBay username?



I'm really sorry you got screwed on the shipping...


I have a lot of advise to share and more than willing to help anyone selling on eBay. The problem is it is all case by case, and there is no catch all.

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Grow with data: Dynamic Sports Data | eBay store

Years ago ebay was great when it was a way for normal folk to sell stuff they didn't need and other folk could buy stuff at a good price. Everyone knew where they stood.

In the UK at least it has all gone wrong. Sellers have NO safety net anymore - no way to advise others about dodgy/fraudulent buyers. We aren't all businesses but we are expected to adhere to the same distance selling regs, it is insane. If you want the protection and returns options that buying from a shop gives you then buy from a f*cking shop dont haul some guy who has a turbo to sell over the coals and demand your money back when you change your mind. Just sell the damn thing on yourself.

Rant over. Sorry.

I had something similar selling a pair of running shoes a few years ago and have not sold anything on Ebay since. I clearly marked them as used - I'd run about 20 miles in them before deciding they were not going to work for me - all clearly stated in the listing with no returns accepted. This went back and forth for weeks. Here is the transcript of that incident for your reading pleasure:

New message from: **** Hi, I am sorry that you have decided to close my request to return these shoes, but you have failed to describe them accurately. These are not US size 10.5, they must be 10 or even 9.5 US. If you choose not to offer returns on an item listed for sale, than they need to be described accurately enough to avoid any issues with the buyer. In this case, it must be mentioned that this manufacturer runs about a half size small, or if not for sure, take out a measuring tape and specify. Every shoe that I own, casual, athletic, or formal, my size is 10.5, therefore they should fit if they were true to US sizing scale, but certainly not in this case.


shredz2000: I'm sorry you feel the item wasnt accurately described, but I do not agree the listing was inaccurate based on your comments. The tongues of the shoes and their original box clearly show they are size US 10.5, as stated in the listing. I have worn over 15 pairs of Newtons, all size 10.5, and have never found any of them to be too small. Running shoes from different manufacturers all fit differently.Your belief that Newtons run small to their size as a general product is not my responsibility when listing the item. The shoes were listed as US 10.5, which you say you received, but you have issue with the manufacturer's sizing. This is the reason I do not accept returns. I am not a store or a business. I'm sorry that you feel the shoes do not fit you properly, but the shoes you received were correctly listed as Newton US 10.5.


New message from: ***** I fail to understand your reasoning. You say you have owned 15 pairs yet you are getting rid of these because you prefer the more common medial posting, buy their whole product line is geared towards a forefoot strike. As with most of those who sell on ebay, including myself, even though not the capasity of a store, you still bare much of the same responsibility as one, as with any form of selling, using the same ethics. You say that since the label reads 10.5 that that means it is what it says it is? Only in a perfect world where there are no errors and people do things the same. Things get mislabeled, and even if this is, or it is not as it says it is, I have no way of knowing the fitting of the shoe. Look friend, you are the only seller not offering returns on this newton brand for what ever reason may be, I don't know, but please see that you migjt be wrong in running your add this way. Usually i buy my runners at a specialty athletic store geared towards running, Fleet Feet Sports, thay carry one of the largest brand selections i have ever seen, and yet they do not carry the Newton brand, so I have no way of trying them out elsewhere. Please see that by blaming for not having been familiar with the sizing or fit of a little known brand of shoes just makes you look bad as a seller. You are only proving that you are not willing to satisfy or accommodate for your customers and take responsibility and understand concerns of your clients.


shredz2000: Dear ****, I know for certain that they are 10.5s because, as the listing stated, I wore them for about 20 miles. They fit exactly the same as the Motion IVs I'm using, which are also 10.5s. I wanted to try the neutral Gravity IVs, but after a few runs determined that I prefer the medial posting in the Motion IVs, which is the reason I'm selling the Gravity IVs. These were not a new pair of shoes I never tried on. >Please see that by blaming for not having been familiar with the sizing or fit of a little known brand of shoes just makes you look bad as a seller.< I do not agree. I'm not blaming you for anything. My listing clearly stated that returns are not accepted and you are asking to return them. The listing accurately represented the shoes you received in terms of their stated size and condition. I fail to see how I'm responsible if you disagree with the manufacturer's stated sizing or are unfamiliar with the brand. >Usually i buy my runners at a specialty athletic store geared towards running, Fleet Feet Sports, thay carry one of the largest brand selections i have ever seen, and yet they do not carry the Newton brand, so I have no way of trying them out elsewhere< In fact Fleet Feet as a chain does sell Newtons: https://www.fleetfeetsports.com/search?q=Newton Whether they sell them at your local store I do not know. Look I'm not trying to scam anyone here. I have a simple return policy to avoid all this back and forth, and thats to not accept returns. My seller rating and feedback are 100% positive. I fail to see how the listing misrepresented the shoes you received in any way when I know from having worn them they are the size that is listed.
- shredz2000




New message from: ***** I apologize for any trouble and inconvenience i have caused you and also for any accusations that were made regarding your add. I have not meant any harm. In a nutshell, I just wasn't pleased with the fit, although they did seem small for me, maybe that is the way they are supposed to fit considering their products are all built for the biomechanics of a forefoot strike, which is completely my fault for not having tried one on somehow somewhere before purchasing from you. Yet, still, unsatisfied customers on Ebay, in most cases, qualify for there Ebay money back guarantee, hence the reason why you are receiving these back to sell again. I just wanted to be completely frank and make my case clear with you, and I do regard you still as an honest "Ebayer" and person, so if we have an accord, I will put positive comments with highest rating, as long as you can do the same?


shredz2000: Dear ****, Here's what I'll do - I will refund you $50. Thats all that I got out of the sale after the ebay/paypal fees and shipping. I cant recoup those costs. How does that sound?

The guy went on to ship them back to me anyway. He then opened a Paypal claim against me to try and get his money back, and I sent them the above transcript. They ended up siding with me and I made the guy pay $25 to ship them back to him since he decided he wanted them after losing the Paypal case.


Talk about the biggest waste of time.

Such a nightmare. I am not on FB so selling is not an option. Otherwise would have ditched ebay long ago.

After going back and forth the buyer closed his request and apologized for wasting my time. @!#$% idiot. I have been selling on ebay for 15 years. Not sure about my dollar volume but it is significant. Hardly a newbie but get frustrated with the farging iceholes that run rampant on that site.

Are you required to use paypal over there? I am in Germany and on our ebay paypal is an option. I don't use it and use normal bank transfer instead. They buy on ebay, pay to my bank account and I ship the stuff. When a buyer tries to pull stuff, which sadly is a lot more regularly nowadays than it used to, theres no way ebay can force me to do anything with regards to returns/reimbursements since the money is in my bank account and paypal is not involved.

surrey85 wrote:

Are you required to use paypal over there? I am in Germany and on our ebay paypal is an option. I don't use it and use normal bank transfer instead. They buy on ebay, pay to my bank account and I ship the stuff. When a buyer tries to pull stuff, which sadly is a lot more regularly nowadays than it used to, theres no way ebay can force me to do anything with regards to returns/reimbursements since the money is in my bank account and paypal is not involved.

We have the option to choose, everyone uses paypal. It's advised to use paypal. eBay recently announced they will be taking over facilitating payments and moving away from paypal.

https://www.recode.net/2018/1/31/16957212/ebay-adyen-paypal-payments-agreement

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Grow with data: Dynamic Sports Data | eBay store

I'm glad it worked out for you, your buyer was not a newbie either. I looked up his profile, he has had his share of angry buyers in the past. He even sells various bike components.

On a side note.... I can't believe it cost you $100+ to ship a wheel-set. I just sold an aluminum wheel-set and shipping was $25 (FedEx label printed through eBay).

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Grow with data: Dynamic Sports Data | eBay store