His take on swim training is interesting.


Perhaps for long course athletes with good technique erg training could be a good way to save time?

To put this into context: my swim times actually improved after swapping lap pool swimming by Vasa swimming. Also, if I want to swim in a pool, it requires me to drive 1h with a car, get dressed and undressed so one swim session of 1h takes at least 2h30 of my time and I'd end up in a crowded pool lane. I'd rather run for 1h30 and combine this with a Vasa session.
Sam

Out of Curiosity how often do you use the Vasa, and how do you use it?

Do you just basically use it for a set period of time...or use it different ways for different period of times?

I'm very intrigued because I have a similar issue with using a pool and pretty much just don't swim because of it, which has obviously really hurt my times.

Congrats on a great race Sam!!!

You've always have very impressive IM bike and run splits. IM Texas was no exception.

Could you provide details on how you balance bike and run workouts during IM preparation? I think specially with the run one has to be very careful that if train too hard it will hurt the bike training.

Do you perform run speed works? if yes, types and how many a week?

Would be great if you can provide information on bike/run sessions during a typical IM build week for you.

I was also planning to race IMTX, but unfortunately got very sick the night before the race.

Thanks in advance

I like swimming even though I'm a MOP swimmer, at best. But it's the least convenient. Running or cycling I can step out my front door and do either and cycling I can use my indoor training. I, for the most, part control the schedule for those. Swimming. not so much. Even though I'm not far from the pool, they have limited lap swim times and I may ended up in a crowded lane.

I think it takes far more dedication to staying home and doing a vasa workout then it does going even with all the issues of the pool. And we are in a age where people are riding indoors much more than ever before, but I would think for most athletes they couldnt pull off what Sam did.

85 hours on Vasa trainer + 7 hrs on endless pool to get feel of water in 2 week build up.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Herbert, an Interview with Ryan Giuliano would be nice. Good dude

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Coming up

Awesome!

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Works for you so I don't get why people are getting their shorts in a knot about it.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Congrats on the great race, Sam! What was your fueling like and what is your daily diet like?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
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I've been thinking about the swim comments for a few hours. and, I agree with you. We make calculated choices. It's a hobby. His results clearly say it works for him. If he was pro he would have some nice juicy low hanging fruit for the taking. For me, lap swimming is close, not crowded and helps my recovery. All that said, I'd trade places if it would give me times anywhere near his.

All respect to SGY

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I don't think anyone was getting their shorts in a knot, I think they (like me) were simply interested in hearing more specifically why he trains the way he does for swim. It was the one comment that stood out for me too, when I read the interview earlier today.
I used to have a Vasa, I sold it. I just couldn't handle how bored I was on it. But if you can get past that, then it gives a great workout.

definitely. I don't know that I could do vasa workouts only. I start getting antsy after an hour on the bike trainer. I don't mind a couple of hours a week on the bike trainer but then I definitely need to get some outdoor riding in. Sam's dedication is way more than I'm willing to put in. I had a good and completely focused year last year training for my 1st triathlon but I can't do it year after year so it's definitely impressive how dedicated some athletes can be.

Congrats and thanks for the vasa commentary. I purchased an erg in February due to the same time waste the pool involves and put in 16-20k per week on the thing listening to podcasts. I jumped back in the pool a week ago to make sure I'd float and am noticeably faster/100 - most likely because I could never get 16-20k in with the pool hours and crowds. Congrats again, extremely impressive!

It's being in the moment. Once you're in the moment and not counting down the hours/mins you have left before you hop off the trainer. It's a useful skill to have, not only in training, but in other aspects of life.

I think it’s impressive to do it year after year. It’s not something I’ve been able to do and I’m not sure I could and/or want to. I was pretty dedicated last year but not compared to many. For me, as a hobby, I’m only willing to put so much time and energy into my training. Obviously many others are putting way more into it than I am.

If circumstances ever dictate that I have to train for triathlon with a swim erg or endless pool and a treadmill, i’ll quit the sport. Riding indoors is the most amount of monotony I can take. Don’t understand how guys like LS do it. The training needs to be a little fun.

They like winning?

Tim Floyd sort of did in his comments under the article. Part of that was him reading Sam's "waste of time" comment figuratively and not literally but this was the exact response I expected (am expecting) from the swim honks.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think it works because it's basically so regimented that it's the easiest course of action. Read Sam's comments. He saves what 90 mins a swim day from staying home and doing vasa. That's 3-4.5 hours a week for family/life/work that makes that "sacrifice" worth while. It sucks in the present because it's just a grind, but then when you realize that training isn't being compromised race day, you can #embracethesuck even more.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I try to get in 4-5 session a week lasting on avg 1h10' per session. I try to add the same variation as I would do in normal swims.
For endurance work I set resistance to 3-4. If I want to work on strength I set it to 7.
My baseline wattage on the vasa is about 75W. I set zones using the Coggan method based on a threshold power of 100W and train in these zones as I would do biketraining so each workout is a continuous workout with different intervals.
While swimming on the vasa I usually watch a basketball game and play some cardio music.
I pulled a muscle in my back at the end of January because I was a bit to fanatic and had to take 2 complete weeks off swimming because of that so be careful when cranking up the intensity.
Also there is mirrors next to the vasa so I can verify a correct movement and long pull constantly.
This is my approach to the swim and is not based on any literature but it keeps swimming fun and feasible for me without getting wet.
Sam

why are you a rockets fan? Awesome that you are(!) just wondering why...

Fantastic result - good swim (for Sam), and an incredible 2:53 run after what I know was a very spiky ride for him. I remember when Sam used to swim 1:10+ so getting it down to 1:02 is a great improvement.
The only thing I can't believe is that he saw me on the side of the road with a flat tire, and he didn't even stop to give me his wheel.

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

To give you an idea, I copied my weekly volumes of last winter and the zone distribution for biking and running per week. I hope this provides some insight. I also copied my weekly bike tss which is easy to monitor since I only bike indoor.
Sam

I have thought about that Rob but that would have been a huge disappointment for all the people following me ;-p
Sam

My daily diet is quiet balanced but nothing special. I don't eat meat too often but I am addicted to cheese :-)
Race routine:
- carboloading with maltodextrine 3 days leading up to race
- day before the race easy to digest food and ensure - last meal around 3-4pm
- race morning 3:15am 1/2 energy cake (brand Overstims Gatosport - only available in Europe) + coffee + banana
- hours before the race: Overstims prerace drink (contains mainly fructose) + 1 ensure
- 1/2 hour before the race: 1 gel
- on the bike: about 18 endurance gels (Overstims Energix) diluted in maltodextrine solution and at least one bottle of sports drink every hour
- during the run: 2 gels early in the run from T2 and gatorade at every aidstation and 3 more gels later in the run. Redbul during last 5k.

Sam

This is a very personal issue. I prefer indoor riding and running over outdoor but that is because I live in a country where it is shitty weather almost all the time and where traffic is so crazy and roads are so crappy that is too dangerous to my liking to go out.
Also, I usually train in the evening after work and training outside in the darkness is a very bad idea here.
Sam

I have become a rockets fan since Rodman left the bulls ;-) I think they were a great team at the time in the Olajuwon era and the Houston love hasn't really changed. I guess it is sth inexplainable. Their current team is awesome (apart from last night)!
Sam

Congrats on a stellar race! Below is what stood out to me in the article. Were you expecting bad roads or something? I've pretty much raced all my IMs with Latex tubes and no problems for the past 10 years...including IMTX 2017. You are giving up a few watts there, but then again if I had your strength I wouldn't need those watts!

I rode my Dimond Marquise, Rotor 55/42 Qrings, Reynolds Aero 80 wheels with 11-23 cassette and Continental GP TT 25 tires with butyl tubes filled with Stan’s notubes and 7bar of air.

Zwift, trainerroad, other?

Sam- Do you ride aero on the train or on the bars?

That was the guy I was thinking of

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Trainerroad + Netflix or NBA and loud music ;-)
Sam

WU + CD and zone 1 riding mostly on the bars. Quality blocks as much as possible aero. The pad stack on my indoor bike is about 1cm higher compared to my race setup.
I will try to integrate http://bioraceraero.com/#en/bioracer-aero at some point in training.
Sam

What’s your favorite VASA, trainer, and run workout? Do you have one of each that you feel like is a staple or “go to”? Also what was you power to weight ratio for the bike?

Congrats on a great race!

Normally I ride with latex but the anti-leakage fluid which was in the tubes since Kona had completely hardened out and I only found that out on Thursday before the race and I didn't have spare latex with me.
Sam

Sam, great race! Been following you since you took the welcome banquet stage in Kona 2013.

Do you take multi vitamins or any other supplements? Any salt tabs during racing and training? I’m assuming you trained with Overstims and maltodextrin just as you raced. I’m interested in how you determine how much, what kind, and when to add the malto.

Also, can you please leave the 45-49 age group?

Cheers,

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thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
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My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner

On the VASA I prefer to do main set of 4 * 10' at IM race intesity with a solid warmup and cooldown.
My preferred bike workouts are in the 3-4h length range and consist of a couple of long (8'-15') low cadence (55-65rpm) blocks at 85% ftp (I have my ftp at 320W).
My preferred run workouts are around 1h20'-30' and consist of a couple of 1k repeats at around 17-18kph.
I weigh about 76kg and measure 192cm.
I tried to upload my powerfile breakdown for IMTX but the forum is limited to 250kb so it is not working.
Sam

Ahh there it is. The GMan dig against swimmers. The more things change...

Only supplement I use is bioglucosamin in he hope that it will save my joints for a few more extra races ;-)
I train with Overstims Hydrixir and its LD version. During training I have one gel every 45'. During racing I think I swallow about 1 every 15-20'. An Overstims gel contains 75kcal of energy.
Normally my stomach can digest quite some calories except when I get dehydrated so I try to avoid that during races but I sometimes fail...
During training I try to adapt to race circumstances so leading up to races I gradually increase the heat and humidity in the training room. I use Overstims electrolites when I sweat a lot. They are a bit bitter and I like that.
Also I drink lots of German non-alcoholic beer during workouts because it is so refreshing and not sweet.
I promise to stay in M40 for 2 more years!
Sam

Congrats on a great race!

Woah! So your ftp is 320 and you rode 260w (81%) and say that was conservative? Seems like much higher percentage than we normally hear around here for IM power. But you obviously know what you’re doing and it works. Think your ftp is actually higher than 320?

I'll just add my MOP n=1 comment here but the only TV I get to watch at home is either on my Vasa trainer, or on my Kickr.

I still work pretty hard when I'm on the Vasa as it's akin to swimming with large paddles to me (less cardio impact, bigger arm muscular endurance impact) and it's great for any long non-hammerfest swim workouts that I'm doing. I wouldn't call it pleasant while you're working that hard, but it's certainly at LOT easier to motivate to get in the swim volume when there's a great episode of Game of Thrones or whatever else you like to look forward to!

Mad props to SGY for yet another awesome performance. And also props for being brave enough to do so little in-water swimming despite his super high level of performance when there are literally no pros and as far as I've heard of, no other AGers doing so little in-water swimming prior to race day. I assumed guys like SGY were 'all-in' since they're the freaking AG world champion, and would therefore drive the hour if required to get in that in-pool or OWS training even if it's a big time commitment.

@ sgy - also saw on your graphs (great info, btw, thanks for sharing!) that you have run/ELLIPTICAL grouped together.

Care to share what your philosophy about elliptical use is as a run training substitute? I've never gone hardcore on an elliptical, but the few times I've tried it in the gym and tried to 'go hard' on it, I felt it was so different from running that I was probably better off just biking to improve my running!

260/320 = 0.81 is conservative? >.<

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Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding it hurts.

Huh? That wasn't a dig against swimmers. I've never been anti-swimmer. I just think some of you lifelong competitive swimmer types need an occasional reality check. Many swimmers' heads explode when someone does amazingly well not swimming 20K per week or not "swimming" in actual water. Kind of like those four brothers that all KQ'd a few years back and basically said swimming was 10% of the race and they were going to spend time working on the parts of the race that take up 90% of the time. Yes, one of them got popped for doping but it doesn't dismiss the narrative that there's much more bang for your training buck improving the bike and run.

As the aforementioned cheater stated in an interview...


In Sam's case he wasn't dismissive about swim-type training, as he certainly put in the hours on the VASA, but he was dismissive of the admin time required to get in the water and felt it was a better use of his time working on the bike and run.

I'm almost equally critical of cyclists who think the world is going to end because someone does all their training on a trainer.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Hey Sam I recall you used to use Rotor QXL. If so why the change back to Rotor Q rings? Another amazing race bravo...

Great race Sam! As an aspiring FOP triathlete, I was quite impressed with your race. Thank you for taking time to answer questions as I am sure you are quite busy and tired after an amazing performance.

In regards to your bike nutrition, can you estimate what you consume in regards to total calories and ounces per hour? I see you had a bottle on your down tube and am curious how you consume all of your nutrition and still manage not have to pee, lol!

Is there a reason you do not ride with a disc or disc cover?

Jason

Hi Sam,

How did you buy your VASA ergometer? Did you get it shipped from the US?

Thanks,

Will

Hello Sam and All,

Thanks for posting and answering questions and congratulations on a great race.

I am inspired to do more indoor training.


No excuses for 'don't have time today' to train.

Everything is right there in my garage.

I will still get out for 'real world training' ...... but with the idea that indoor training is almost as good ..... and sometimes better .... I will improve my consistency.

Thanks!

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I don't bike indoors or run on a treadmill unless I have to as it is so boring, there is nothing to look at other than the time left to stop ! I don't know much about VASA but I swimming is already boring so I don't see how a VASA could be much worse. It would save some time that is for sure and the pools gets crowded in peak times which can make it frustrating.

Riding indoors is the most amount of monotony I can take. Don’t understand how guys like LS do it. The training needs to be a little fun.[/quote]
I wonder if the monotony of indoor training helps the mental aspect of racing, perhaps gives you more of a boost when you have wind, scenery, and the occasional crowd

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Thanks for the insight Sam, I appreciate it.

Congratulations to Sam for a great race! Much gratitude to him for mentioning his regular use of the Vasa SwimErg.

When Sam refers to meters registered on the Vasa SwimErg Power Meter, it is important to understand that meters swam using a Vasa SwimErg approximate the distance one would swim while "pulling" in flat calm open water, no kicking, no push off the wall at turns, no current, chop, and no combat swimming with other athletes.

So one could use their own range of paces experienced while "pulling" in such conditions for any given distance to obtain an estimate for comparison to SwimErg meters. Of course, there are other variables to consider for intensity, since there are 7 resistance settings. Most important is that all Vasa SwimErg power meter readings are accurate within 1% from workout to workout and machine to machine. That makes the swim power metrics repeatable and reliable so the athlete and coach can do "apples to apples" workouts, assessments, benchmark time trials, etc.

Among the many important benefits possible from swim training on land with a swim bench like the Vasa, there are 2 that may apply well to this thread: (1) Consistency - it allows a time efficient, high quality, measurable swim training venue similar to a smart bike trainer or treadmill. Many triathletes' training plans call for 3 to 5 swim workouts per week. So every athlete can decide for themselves if they are actually completing their planned swim workouts. If not, then this useful adage does not apply: "Plan your Play. Play your Plan." I'd rather surround myself with viable opportunities to get it done instead of showing up unprepared for the swim, which sets the stage for the rest of a race day.

and (2) Using it regularly reveals weaknesses or technique inefficiencies that often go unnoticed when only swimming in a pool or open water. This is why most of the top swimming programs in the world use Vasa in conjunction with the pool time. On the Vasatrainer blog, there is an article that outlines one of the most common inefficiencies that adult-learned swimmers make in the water - a "monospeed" pull: "Overcoming Freestyle "Monospeed": Why, How and When to Accelerate Hand Speed.

Rob Sleamaker
Founder, Vasa, Inc.

Sam, would you consider 85 hours (no matter if in water or on vasa trainer) in 7 months a lot or just a little amount of swim training?

My FTP is definitely around 320. Most methods do determine FTP result in a bit of an inflated FTP. I 'think' that I could hold 320W for 1h but that is just a guess. If it would be higher (which I doubt) it would be a couple of watts maximum.
I use this number for a couple of years now to standardize my training and racing which I base on IF. 260W or IF 0.81 is my worst case scenario. 270W or IF 0.84 is my best case scenario so that margin is pretty narrow. Usually my feel at the start of the race and heart rate tell me where I need to aim at intensity wise. At IMTX my avg heartrate during the bike was 132 and the max was 145 which told me that I had some margin.
In Kona I have often made the mistake to start out at IF > 0.90 and 150+ heart rate (mostly to get rid of pelotons) and I always paid for this in the return from Hawi.

I put a breakdown of my power file here: https://www.dropbox.com/...IMTX%20bike.pdf?dl=0 . It has some comments about the sections in the race and my tactics.

Sam

It really is an awesome tool. And as Sam showed it is a darn good substitute when getting to the pool is impractical.

Who was the masters swimmer who tried to set a masters world record (in the 100 breast I think?) going exclusively VASA? Glen Mills perhaps? I do not remember how that turned out...

I have a history of calf injuries and found out that substituting running by elliptical training preserves my running form best. It is the most boring thing to do though! I'd rather spend 7h on the indoor bike than 2h on the elliptical but sometimes it is the only alternative that works.
In 2017 I suffered badly from a little tear in the right achilles tendon and between Kona and the end of the year I really didn't run much at all (but did a ton of eccentric heeldrops) because I didn't want to suffer another year and compromise my running future.
I am pain free since Januari and hope I don't need that elliptical for the rest of the season :-)
Sam

For me it is based on 320W FTP (which is about right) and after 20+ ironman distances I know that 0.81 is conservative and 0.84 is ambitious.
Also important to mention is that I aim for a very low VI, ideally around 1.02-3 for flat rolling courses and 1.04-5 for hillier courses. Lots of spikes over FTP will break you down for sure.
That is something what I don't get in Kona for example: people don't move forward on the flat, make surges on climbs and slow down again on the next flat.
Sam

The QXL ring has only 54 teeth and on flat courses I prefer one or two extra so I use the 55t or 56t Q ring. Rotor seems to focus on 110bcd systems with smaller rings these days. Don't know why they do that.
Sam

Thank you.

I am not aware of the masters swimming attempt you describe. It may be Glenn Mills. He has or had a Vasa SwimErg. I'll try to remember to ask him.

There have been numerous "time-crunched" swimmers and triathletes who have incorporated the SwimErg (or the Vasa Trainer model) into their training program to avoid missing swim workouts. The amount they use it varies by the athlete. Some do 2 SwimErg workouts and 2 in water per week. Others do nearly all their workouts using the Vasa and with very impressive results. Their swimming technique experience varies widely. Many are very efficient technically and just time crunched. Others are adult-learned swimmers and also pressed for time in their busy lives.

The answer is not black and white, all or nothing. Each athlete must weigh "importance" with "viability" to find the best answer to crafting their swim training. As an exercise physiologist and coach, I have observed thousands of athletes over the years. Consistency and quality swim training is a very common thread amongst those who have figured out how to swim with confidence, strength, and efficiency.

While it is important to develop efficient stroke technique, in triathlon swimming it is most useful to develop efficient propulsion and sustained power for the race duration. To the delight of many who initially get a Vasa SwimErg for the training and power numbers, they often discover they can also improve their technique along the way because it encourages a better stroke path and reveals weaknesses.

Best of success to you!

That is a good question and I wish I knew the answer myself :-)
During training it is simple and controllable: 1 gels (75kcal) every 45' and almost 1l/h so that will amount to about 400kcal/h
During racing I will easily consume 3 gels an hour and drink the same amount so that will amount to about 500kcal/h
I rarely have to be and often it takes a couple of litres of post race drinks before I feel the need to pee although I manage to squeeze out some pee if really necessary for research purposes;-)

I don't ride a disc because I don't have one. If I had one I'd use it. Despite my loyalty to Reynolds they stopped supporting me but I guess that is due to economic reality. So is the reason for me not getting a disc ;-)
Sam

I got it via rosiir.com but they sourced it specially for me and it was shipped via https://www.sport-thieme.com/. In Europe it is a lot more expensive compared to the USA though.
I got mine in 2015 and paid about 2600 EUR for it including shipping. Customer service from VASA in the USA is great though. I had to swap the cords once and also changed the computer by the ant+ version (At first I thought data collection from it would be meaningless but now I would recommend getting the Ant+ version if you track workouts based on TSS in TP or sth similar.
Both me and my partner think it was one of our best equipment investments.
Sam

I have no issues with "non-flat" beer. In order of preference I drink:
- Scheider Weisse
- Weihenstephaner
- Paulaner
- Erdinger
They need to serve this on course in races!!!
Sam

That just blew my mind. Never thought of that, its an awesome idea!

Couldn't do the Vasa though. Luckily I can get to the pool a couple times a week

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

That's what I do during the winter when I am usually quite busy at work.
What I try to do is getting in 4 session of at least one hour / week and mostly that works.
To improve however I think I would need to move to 6-8 sessions a week but I don't want to compromise run and bike training so that is hard to achieve within my available time windows.
A lot also depends on your goals and the quality of the vasa workouts. As often is the case, the saying no pain, no gain is quite appropriate.
The reason that I dare to substitute swim time by vasa time is the fact that when I do hop into the water and 'pretend' I am swimming on the vasa, I actually swim quite well. There is less of a recovery phase on the vasa compared to pool swimming so you need to focus on stroke timing more in the pool but I find the transfer form dry to wet straightforward.
Sam

I can't answer for Sam and his actual FTP vs the %age he rode, but the %age is a bit based on how long you'll be on the bike. Most athletes also tend to overestimate their FTP, so even at 75% or 72% or whatever, they are over riding.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Wow, that's a lot (no matter if 4 sessions or 6~8 session; while - if having swimming background, 6~8 session would typically bring you in a very competitive masters swim shape). And no comparison to my 1.5hrs/week pool time ;-) But if I got that right, you have zero swimming background, right? That makes a difference. And you are probably not on a 10hrs/week plan as I am (still with KQ goal) ... where it goes back to the same point as what you mentioned: I do not want to compromise run and bike training as well.

I did never swim before the age of 27 and my swim skills have often been the object of laughter :-)
Sam

Sam, I was checking out your calorie count for training vs racing and it seems like you do a big difference. A 75 kcal gel every 45 minutes in training versus one every 15 to 20 minutes in racing is quite a jump! If those numbers are right, how do you stomach that without issues?

Also, are those numbers just for the run or for the bike as well?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Well, I hope that I will never have to see it from behind ;-) But will be impressed for sure once you overtake on the bike!

These numbers are for the bike!
I don't eat gels during run training. Actually I don't eat gels during bike training that lasts less than 2h30 either.
But during race I usually can stomach about 500kcal during the bike part. Bear in mind that I am tall (192cm) and relatively heavy (76-77kg).
During the run it is a lot less. Drinking too much there causes diaphragm pain so I try to drink just the right amount to stay pain free and not dehydrate too much. I take a sip of a gel during the run every other aid station but don't swallow whole gels.
Staying out of GI trouble is really an art that few execute to perfection. I have failed myself a couple of times...
Sam

Hey Brandon!

This is truth. 82% FTP for 4.5 hours is probably the same impact on the body as 72% for 6 hours. People need to think time and elevation gain instead of just miles.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Congrats on your race, Sam. I’m still amazed that you can ride at such a high % of FTP if your FTP is really only 320. My FTP is around 340 and I aim for 235-240 watts in an IM, and consider that conservative!

Also, did you take a Kona slot? I’m in your AG at Placid and hoping there’s one more slot available!

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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I won't take one :-) See you in July!
Sam

One way to incorporate or engage the core during vasa sessions is to do swim specific core exercises during the rest intervals. This video I made for Vasa a few years ago shows some exercises you can include.


https://vasatrainer.com/blog/dry-land-swim-circuit-by-tim-crowley/

It depends on volume. My guess your FTP is based on <10hrs a week average for the year. He trains for Ironman racing. I'm sure if he trained less than 10hrs on the bike he could make his 20min FTP test higher but this is not the whole story when it comes to an endurance race like Ironman.

Congrats on a well executed race!

This is a great thread! Lots of good questions and thank you Sam for taking the time to answer.

Good luck on the rest of your season!

Sam, I’m curious how many calories you would take in during a typical 1 hour workout, say during the week before work or in the evening? And is it different for each sport?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Just one bottle (80cl) of sports drink mix which would be around 200kcal. I rarely bike for just one hour but that is what I would consume during a 1h15 run (my standard duration for a run) or 1h vasa swim or for each hour on the bike.
I never work out before work, always after.
Sam

@ sgy - You REALLY gotta start a blog - we're all really interested in your (seemingly unconvetional) training and prep methods!

Haha, maybe Herbert will interview me again in a couple of years and then there is a sequel ;-) Also, I am in this game for quite a while now so learned most things the hard way. And I studied economics so cost/benefits analyses are applied everywhere ;-)
Glad some find it interesting or funny.
Sam

What is seemingly unconventional outside of the swim training?
- His average week is pretty steady/solid and looked to be close to 21 hours.
- Running/elliptical + cycling average weeks looked to be a total of 17ish hours (average).
- His 'zones' are largely aerobic training (1 & 2) with some higher intensity.
- Peak volume weeks are closer to the race and are upwards of 20 hours as shown by TSS and hours.
- Even if you say that his dryland swim training is unconventional and therefore non-specific...it is as close to swimming as you can get without getting in a pool.
- His bike ride at IMTX was well fueled and well paced off of an 'ftp' that might have been a conservative estimate.

Those weeks, with differences here and there, are similar to what a lot of top age groupers (and pros) do. You figure out what you can handle and you do it week in and week out and try to stay healthy while doing it.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Thanks for this to the point summary Brandon! Sam

Here's what I find unconventional:

- Vasa training. Even if it's as close to swimming as you can get without getting in a pool, there are zero pros doing this, and as far as I can tell, almost no AGers based upon the fact that there seem to be only a small handful of Vasa erg users on these forums. Any high-level coaches recommending going all-erg for swim training out there? Any?

- Seems like he trains indoors a lot. I know this is more mainstream now (thanks LS) but I was still surprised how much indoors work he does.

- Elliptical?!

Vasa. A lot of age groupers don't swim, or they swim 1x every week or two and think that they swim. Seriously. It's a PITA. Does it hurt their race, yes. The ones on this forum who post a lot probably have more access to a pool that many others. All vasa by high level coaches? No, why would they unless their swimmer had absolutely no pool access or unless they had very limited pool access but happened to have a vasa in their garage or gym.

Is it the best way to swim fast,probably not. Does it work, sure it can. I read the front page comments under the article. Sam obviously has a decent enough talent for swimming, and he's happy enough with 62 minutes or whatever it was. Regardless of the talent for cycling and running and regardless of how much grinding some athletes can do, some may never swim under an hour in an IM. No amount of swimming nor swim coaching is going to do it for them. So, they need to swim enough to at least be comfortable and not overly worked for 4k. Or swim just enough plus a little bit more to get a few minutes off of their time. But the extra amount of time that it would take to swim a lot faster is likely better spent cycling or running.

Elliptical? If it keeps you relatively free of injury, it's probably closer to running than a lot of other options, and you don't have to be near a pool like you might for aqua jogging.

They're only unconventional in that you don't hear of people using them. But when you look at the overall volume and the specificity/near-specificity of the training, they aren't that unconventional. He's moving pretty high end aerobically for 20 plus hours a week.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Agree on you last two posts ... but we are like that ;-) ... everyone looking for magic bullets, yet there are none!

Hope you are well B

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

i would call it time efficient and it works , made me laugh when i read one of the comments bellow the article ( many ways lead to rome you just have to find the right one )
i might be wrong but i bleivie sam is using power cranks lol but most importantly he does the training and is smart about it
like dan stublinski he has been at a high level for many years now.

Thanks a lot for all the info and congrats on your race, Sam!

I'm curious about how you are able to squeeze all that weekly volume training only after work. Do you mind giving a rough outline of how your weekly schedule looks like?

Erdinger sponsors one of our local tri series here in Ontario (trisportcanada's Subaru series). And while they don't serve it on course, they do at the finish, and it's the best, especially on stinking hot days.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Some of you guys are mentioning that Sam's training is unconventional, but I think he has done a very good cost benefit analysis in terms of the 2.5 hours it takes him to do a 60 min swim. Sam also mentioned that he did do some swimming to get his core ready, but keep in mind the guy is riding powercranks a zillion miles per week. There is a lot of actually very specific core training in terms of connecting the upper body and lower body that is very applicable to swimming that you don't get riding conventional cranks. So his all "vasa" program that does not use his core, may not work as well for others who are not doing as much core work on onging basis. Sam is doing core work on a constant basis riding those torture devices. So his transition to real water is easier.

Also I think this 62 min IM is faster than many recent IM's for him (Sam can you confirm)....perhaps he is better MORE swim specific load on the vasa accesing it alll the time vs swimming a lot less....and he frees up time for the rest of life rather than sitting in a car. It probably means that he gets more sleep by getting rid of all that car commuting time and as Brandon Marsh pointed out, the most important thing for a top age grouper is sustaining load and staying healthy. Sitting in a car doing all the commuting just takes away from sleeping more and sleeping more makes you healthy.

Sam, can I ask how many hours per week you sleep.

Also big congrats on the rolling start win over Stubelski. That must have been tough for both of you not knowing the real buffer....a true TT

Hi Sam, congrats on your amazing race!

In the interview you mentioned "In the frame I carry a Platypus Hoser bladder that holds 1.4l of fluids consisting of gels diluted with a maltodextrin solution."
How do you put the Platypus Hoser bladder inside the marquise?

Wow, a belgian guy loving german beer! ;-)
I travel a lot to Brussels (work a lot for the Euro bureaucracy machine), and belgian beer IMO is the best!

Congrats Sam on your race and successful AG career, and thanks for answering questions here!

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Sr. Salitre

I am by no means as successful of an athlete as Sam, but I too do 99% of my training on my vasa erg. I train about 90 minutes per week on the erg, about 5 or 6x / week. My go to workout is a 15min time trial on the erg.

For me, that is good enough for a 30min HIM swim; PB of 28.40 ish.

The benefits, for me, is amazing time saving; ability to "swim" many times per week; focus on muscular strength (my limiter); ability to focus on high elbow (mirrors on the side of the bench).

I don't have a HS or college swimming background...

Hope this helps.

I can see how being out of shape and inefficient in the swim wouldn’t impact the bike at all. Because as a swim coach who knows nothing about triathlon, you get an hour break before you have to get on the bike, right?

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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I'd like to add my 2 cents here regarding the Vasa SwimErg training. Yes, it is as close to swimming as you can get without getting in a pool, but it is so much more! Just like training with power on a bike, the SwimErg allows you to train with power for the swim. I do the same type of power based training on the bike that I do on the Vasa SwimErg. My coach gives me an FTP test at the beginning of the season and retests me through the season. I do many sets where I practice swimming at 70-80% of my FTP because that is the range I want to swim in during an Ironman swim. It's incredible to see my swim stroke power increase and my swim splits in races and in the pool drop in direct correlation.
There are many high-level coaches who recommend Vasa SwimErg training to supplement in water training.
Check out the blog post I wrote all about the subject: 3 things that have contributed to my improvement as a swimmer

I think what a lot of casual age groupers are not gettting is that same Sam the IM swim-bike-run at the equivalent of 260W of effort for those three sports. I actually don't think that for Sam's engine, 62 minutes is that good an IM swim time, but it is enough for him to be competitive in his age group. Other athletes putting out say 180W to 200W in an IM, if they go on the erg only plan, might only swim 1:15 if they lack technical skills to begin win.

The erg is great if you can couple the early vertical forearm with the proper shoulder and hip rotation, but if you don't have that and God forbid it is a not wetsuit race and if you are a low wattage athlete already, an erg only plan is going to be slow as molasses.

I've seen lots of us who XC ski race doing zero swimming all winter and in 2 weeks of swimming getting within a minute of our peak summer half IM swim times just by virtue of good upper body conditioning and already having basic swim skills (it works the other way around too), so I can see how the erg adds great upper body conditioning.

I'm not buying that Sam's Erg only plan is any magic plan that others can pull off. When you're a big engine athlete, you can get away with a lot, but other athletes who race pro with similar size engine or smaller would not be able to get away with this plan at the pro level because everyone has a massive engine....likewise other age groupers will moderate to smaller engines will have a tougher time on this approach. However, it's better than nothing when you cannot make it to the pool and I believe this is what Sam is trying to convey. But if he lived 3 minutes from a pool and replaced all that erg time with pool time, or maybe 75% pool and 25% erg, he would swim faster. If not Phelps would be on the 100% erg plan and clearly there is a lot more to fast swimming than pure pulling.

If Sam is reading, in the hypothetical case where you lived close to the pool would you ditch the erg or reduce it and do more water swimming?

Politely and well said, Dev, espec the "If not, Phelps would be on the 100% erg plan..." I too am curious as to whether Mr. Gyde would swim in the pool more if he had one close to his home and/or office. There is also the other option of *moving* close to a good pool, but apparently for 99% of STers living close to a pool is not any sort of priority in their lives. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think moving close to a pool is a non option for most of us. In the past when I lived close to pools (when I was young), I was consistently a sub 1 hour IM swimmer. In between I moved to a place that was 10K from the closest pool (actually city plans called for a pool 3k from home a year after I moved but then that got delayed for 16 years....), so I would just stop swimming in the winter and would just XC ski and keep up my upper body conditioning and then diving into the pool for the 2x per week 30-40 min program during tri season and would typically swim 62-66 minutes. This was a good time vs performance tradeoff. I totally get Sam's angle. I think at the age group level, we have to make these optimization decisions and it's almost why every STer chooses to not swim much. The time vs performance trade off is not there.

Sam has approximately the same size engine as Patrick Lange (Patrick has a smaller body) who won Kona. They both do an IM bike leg at 260W. If Sam did like Lionel Sanders and needed to take time off his swim, he could be a 52-54 minute swimmer with that engine. Swimming is a waste of time for him because with his size engine he can be fast enough to compete as an age grouper, but if he was racing pro, everyone would be ripping into him (like we do into Lionel Sanders) for leaving 8 minutes off the table on an erg only plan.

No way is the 100% erg plan the most optimal IM swim plan, but it is waaaaaaay more optimal than the zero percent swim plan. I am certain that Brandon Marsh who chimed in on this thread dwhen he was racing pro would never dream of that plan as he needed to make the front pack at Kona with Andy Potts. If Brandon decides to race Sam in age group (I think they are in the same age group), Brandon could probably get away with the 100% erg plan too as his engine is pretty massive.

In any case, the 100% erg plan is great for guys who already know how to swim and who are time stapped. But if you don't know how to swim and you have a small engine, you're not going to end up at a 62 min swim by buying an erg sticking it in your garage.

Actually, swimming fast-ish doesn't have as much to do as 'engine size' as you put it. That's why ex-swimmers who are woefully out of shape and might have a 4-cylinder (out of shape engine) in a Mac-truck (out of shape body) can still out-swim a super-fit non-swimmer for a certain distance. That's why I said that for some athletes, no amount of swim coaching nor training is going to get them under an hour. That they need to swim enough to be able to complete the swim in relatively good shape for the rest of the race. Or, they need to do a little bit more swimming so that they can shave a few minutes due to technique and swim fitness and exit the swim in relatively good shape for the bike/run.

But you might be correct or not in the Sam vs. Lange and a 53ish IM swim. Certainly he would be faster than 62, but to say 10 minutes might be a stretch. I think that I swam 53 minutes in 2002 with much less swim consistency than in 2013 when I swam just under 51.

But yeah, if I lived in the middle of nowhere and didn't want to build a Conrad Stoltz pool or buy an endless pool, then I might consider getting an erg/vasa for my garage and swim when I get to a city or location that had a pool.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Well, i guess i am just unusual among STers in that i actually enjoy swimming and hence have made convenience to a good pool very high on my priority list whenever moving. I miss swimming when i'm not able to do it, and am SO happy when my access is restored. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Brandon - What would you say are the abilities needed to become a fast-ish swimmer??? I would say good motor skills, good swim-specific upper body strength, decent flexibility in their shoulders, and some degree of innate enjoyment of just being in the water. (If a person just innately hates getting wet, they're unlikely to ever even learn to swim. :))

Further, would you say that the same thing can be said for running, e.g. for some athletes, no amount of training is going to get them under 20 min for a 5K???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re. Swimming. It's hard to say. Yes shoulder flexibility seems to be consistent with good swimmers. So does bodily awareness or whatever you might call it. I hesitate to say but a lot of times, especially with kids you can just kind of tell. Or with late starters you can just tell. I think that to a certain point it's a somewhat innate ability.

Running I would say the same thing if a 20 minute 5k is a sort of benchmark. There has to be some natural speed at every level. A good masters cyclist in Austin said the same thing when he was trying to run sub-whatever for a 10k...and it was in the 35 to 37 range so not super fast. He said he ran as hard as he could and worked on all of the nessary little things, but his coach said maybe we should adjust that goal... Hard working and reasonably talented but just didn't have it for running.

I'm not a Gladwell-ite with 10, 000 hours or anything. I haven't read The Sports Gene by Epstein. But talent has something to do with it, more than hard work at a certain level. And I don't know where that level is. That is a hard pill to swallow for very hard working athletes who typically succeed in most other facets of life. They work hard and are rewarded. It's not always the same in technique and work sports like swimming.

I've had that specific conversation with athletes who are very focused on Kona. Athletes that I've coached or just talked with. Kona is sold or was sold as anyone can make it. They can't. So you try to squeeze what juice you can out of each lemon. Talking about the process of getting better is a buzzword. Coaching to only those with talent is selling those with less short. Likewise coaching to the lower common denominator is selling the higher talent athletes short. That's the art of it.

Generally though as you can see from this thread, it takes a lot of work. The above might seem fatalistic or pessimistic, but the adage about picking your parents is very true. Add in drafting and drugs, etc and it can be a very frustrating proposition at the pointy end.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Key difference between run and swim is one is a natural thing for a bipedal creature while the other is far from it. Hence why you don't see mac truck sized runners with 4 cylinder engines amounting to anything in the running scene (maybe on track?).

On the point of "getting it" with regard to the run i'd say the process is roughly the same as with the swim. Kienesthetic sensitivity and the ability to know how to manipulate one's body in space/time. Generally we know how to run right (watch any 4-5 year old), then we unlearn that along the way and become this plodding heel braking mess.

EM, you list a lot of good things on what makes a swimmer. I'd say shoulder mobility and effective range of motion (i.e. ability to apply force at extreme ranges of motion) are big concerns in swimming right. I'm astounded by the number of folks i've met that cannot squeeze their skull when in a streamlined position. That shoulder articulation is paramount for setting up the humerus and leveraging a strong pull.

For the record i'm in the sports gene camp and reject the 10k hours blanket application premise.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

With just a few exception I think I could estimate within 10% (5 minutes either way) how fast someone is going to be for a full IM swim with one push off the wall.

I saw John Patterson swim when he was 5 and thought, hmm that kid is going to be good.

You probably held a Ponderosa record for the 7-8 age group? Pretty sure you didn't have 10,00 pool hours yet ; )

Yeah, that probably works for the vast majority of cases. I've got a collection of friends/former athletes in the seattle area that have defied all normal beliefs on AOSs. Gives rise to thoughts on environment but they'd all be great athletes no matter the discipline so maybe just a product of them finding one another.

Not 7-8, I think Brandon beat me at 8 and Andrew Livingstone when i was 7. Maybe one of the 9-10 records tho? Funny story. At Deerfield, all the pool records for the 9-10s all came from the same meet when Jaime, Brandon, and I set them. Relays too. With NWAL banning year round kids not long after I doubt those will ever fall. All olympic trials qualifiers (and olympic medalist) later on so that's going to be a steep ask.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Ya, no doubt that choosing your parents carefully is prob the single most important thing for an aspiring Olympic swimmer, runner, or whatever. And even then, having a Dad who is a three time Olympian with multiple medals is no guarantee. A few yrs ago, i had an email exchange here on ST with Amy Hall, one of Gary Hall Sr's kids. Amy said there are 5 kids altogether in their family and that they all swam, but that Gary Jr was the only 1 of the 5 to actually make it to the Oly Games. I was surprised since i'd never heard of any other Hall offspring, kinda thought maybe Gary Jr was an only child. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hey I think we are on the same page, but if you put my motor inside Sam with Sam's technique and Sam's prep, he goes a lot slower than 62 minutes because instead of getting 260W worth of energy to apply to the water, he'll only get 190W or so. This was really the point I was trying to make on this thread. You take the same rowing shell, with the same set of oars and instead of having 4 rowers in the boat, you have 3 (or actually to make the comparison the same, you take 4 rowers of the same weight with the 75% of the engine size) and the boat with less horsepower will go slower....I also realize that the boat analogy is not ideal, but close as a boat's hydrodynamics are static but a swimmer's are dynamic. I would say that every incremental watts of threshold the swimmer can apply helps more because it allows for a more powerful force application phase allowing them to get into a better streamline quicker (they spend less relative time in the high drag position) and also get back to accessing oxygen quicker. It's also whyI can't understand why swim coaches promote these overly low cadence swim strokes to AOS athletes with tiny engines.....they end up in a high drag phase forever and never get back to more oxygen.

In any case, while I agree that the size of engine has less to do with fast swimming then swimming technique, for the same size athlete with identical technique, the size of engine will play a difference. I don't THINK that a VASA erg is the best way for a small engine athlete to work both their technique and their swim specific engine.

A 260W IM pace athlete like Sam can get away with many non optimal approaches as can a lot of pros. At the age group level, we have to be careful about copying what works for pros. What we should consider are routines that allow for repeated high load training while enhancing health. That part of Sam's 100% erg program makes a ton of sense. The technical element of the erg forcing a high elbow catch is also a positive one if you don't have it already. I am guessing for Sam the erg forced him to work his catch in a way that he previous was not in the water.