$400 wheels being sold for $1000

Their 'Where does your money go chart?' says about all you need to know.

According to them:1) everyone has the same manufacturing and QC cost; 2) On a $2000 wheel set a retailer pays $1500 (33% mark-up); The costs of R&D and marketing are negligible.

I don't believe any of those statements to be true. What is true is that $1449 (they hide the extra $350 charge at first glance) is a lot for 60mm or 88mm open mould rims.

the point is, are zipp wheels also $400 worth?
do these wheels have added or similar value?

Also, the font on the decals are horrible.

Zipp value is world leading aerodynamics and unmatched carbon brake surface for heat management as well as class leading weight.

Fact is, If I order direct from China for quality rims, use say DT 350 Hubs at wholesale and build the wheel myself using Sapim CXray spokes, again at wholesale, I will end up spending around $1000.
That will not match the Zipps for brake track although the rim shape will be the same as Firecrest as the patents that cover that are now run out.
Now if I were to on-sell them like these guys do, I need to double that price or it simply is not a sustainable business model.
So for them to sell at those prices they have a really cheap build, hence my original comments.

There track testing is kinda meaningless. Just about any aero wheel with a decent tire will be faster than an Aksium. Heck crummy tires and butyl tubes will cost you 60 seconds in a 40k.

These might be OK wheels or they might be turds. Their tendency to leave out all the important details, like their R&D work and testing methods, makes me think the latter.

Regardless of experience, I just don't understand why when you get can a set of HED JET 6+ Clinchers for $1099. Throw a disc cover on if you want a disc as well.

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Hi, I own wheelscience. Happy to take any questions you may have. We have a great rider experience piece on our website you might want to look at. We just want to deliver good wheels at a good price.

Can you walk us through the analysis and testing you did for ensuring adequate heat management during heavy braking on long descents, and braking performance vs. both carbon and aluminum standards (i.e. Zipp and Hed)?

I see you did some velodrome testing. GP400sII and butyl tubes were mentioned. What width? Same setup on both wheels? It says multiple riders were used. Can you elaborate on the protocol?

Thanks.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

What tires and tubes were you using for the Alphamantis testing and did the Mavics get the same tire/tube combination?

I would also be curious to know if the weight differences between the Elements and 404s is mostly In the rims or hubs, or somewhere in between.

If the company has real cred he would have showed his real name in his profile and possibly given an email contact.
I note they don't even show a rim profile on their website.

Hey Peter, why don't you tell the good folks here a little about your product, development and testing?

All my contact details on on the website - I did not think it was the done thing to put real names on here

Brake testing

we have a test rig that runs are wheels under load for the equivalent of 10km with the brakes on. The rims sit at a high temp for an extended period of time. We have had zero heat failures in three years.


Aero testing protocol

All wheels used 23mm GP4000sII with continental butyl tubes at 100psi. We had two riders both of whom were very experienced riders with good, stable aero positions. They aimed to hold around 35kph. Power meter used was a powertap rear wheels for front wheel testing, recalibrated for every test and a quark for rear wheel testing and front wheels testing to get comparative data. Each rider ran each wheel tested 5 times.

We undertook this testing knowing it was not under lab conditions but it demonstrated to us the document-able benefits of our wheels and we stand by the results 100%

Product development

our first rims were open, our current rims are our own. The profile was developed to give the best balance between straight line speed and cross wind stability - that is the true benefit of the wider rim profile.

Its the rims mainly being the weight difference to Zipp

So your your wheels are barely a minute faster over 40KM than one of the worst aerodynamically challenged wheels ever manufactured?
What sort of warranty do you offer for a heat damaged wheel?

Our performance data matches us up against all the other brands so I guess your point is all aero wheels are not worth it?
If you correctly install install the brake pads, that being toed in and at least 3mm below the rim top you will not see a heat failure. If you do we replace the wheel, simple. Over the three years we have been operating we have had one rim failure being caused by a bike shop swapping on some none carbon pads, idiots, we swapped that wheel over for free. We do not count that as a heat failure.

He can do it for less than that at MBS:

https://www.mybikeshop.com/...el-set-full-warranty

My mousing finger is itchy for it.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

So if my rim melts when it is 3 years old you will honour it?
Do you class pulsing under brakes as a rim failure or at least a manufacturing fault?
You list maximum pressure as 125PSI, is this for all tyre sizes?
Is there an indicator on the rim to indicate that the pads should be more than 3mm below the lip?

The warranty is currently 2 years so no at this point, I am currently assessing extending our warranty to lifetime given our zero failure rate.
Yes that would be an uneven surface so we would say that is a failure
Yes, tyre size has no impact of the forces put into the rim by the pressure as the contact area is the same.
No there is not, but we provide a guide in our owner documentation around that. To be honest that is not an "us" thing it is just good practice for all carbon clinchers (not an issue for tubbies) so you seperate the forces being applied to the wheel. Any good bike mechanic would be on top of this.

As a mechanical engineer running a startup I'm always interested in others' experiences doing technical work in a small resource-constrained team environment. Can you talk some about the experience of your engineering team? Who's your chief engineer?

When you designed your proprietary wheel did you use open source systems for FEA and CFD analysis like NASTRAN & Openfoam or did you use a package like Ansys?

I've found more affordable FEA packages like Solidworks have had a hard time with nonlinear problems like in highly loaded coupled thermal-stress analyses. Has that been your experience in carbon brake track design?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

You fundamentally misunderstand physics if you believe that tyre size does not have an impact on PSI rating on the rim.
Think 'hoop stress".

To be clear, you are saying that the forces imparted to the rim are the same from say a 20mm and 25mm wide tire at the same pressure?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

So yes, the tire size does impact, of course it does, around 5-6psi per mm of tire. My answer underestimated the audience so sorry for that. We test our rims to 140psi so the 125psi guidelines should cover all eventualities. So the question is should we publish differential tire size pressure guides? We don't think so, too confusing.

Good job explaining all this, WSWheels. You're never going to please everyone and it's disappointing some use this sort of forum to attack and people and companies more-or-less anonymously (most of the comments are fair, but some are unreasonable). I encounter Zipp (or the like) apologists all the time as I run a pair of Flo Cycling wheels. I reckon they are great - and fast - and based on your data, I would seriously considered buying Wheelscience if I needed a new pair.

Thanks for that, I met the guys from FLO in Kona this year, great guys and I hope you are enjoying their wheels.

Haha - so did I!

Being an Aussie in San Diego, these wheels came to my attention when aguy came through town with them, for a race. I did the research, checked the prices, and was intrigued, especially when compared to the prices of the usual suspects.

If you know me, then you know I've done well in local tri's , TTs and Aquabikes. Wins in all three. No failure, 3 years in. LBS , in fact mechanics in several LBS I have shown them to, are impressed. I have yet to have even a spokeneed to be tightened. Keepin mind, I live in the third world enclave (these local roads were paved before Adam reached puberty) of Clairemont, you know that is a miracle indeed.

I have the 60s, and they have got me a TT in the 28s. I'm in my late 50s, and on those glorious days there are multiple races around, I have had some of the better bike splits.

Pete, your sure did come under attack from some of these guys. Wow. So I stumped hard for these guys, to try to help them get a leg up over here, but people love their brand names, and second place finishes. I'll be at all the KOZ races this year, the new hip seems ok. I'll even let you borrow them during the week.

Thanks for that mate - much appreciated. Did you see the review by 220 tri mag? Of the 88mm wheels on test we were second out of 4, beating the ZIPP 858 NSW, which list at 4X our price. We have it up on the site if you fancy a look.

Hi all, we now have verified reviews up on Trust Pilot. Head on over and take a look.

https://au.trustpilot.com/review/www.wheelscience.com


cheers all

These wheels came up in my Instagram feed, does anyone use / has used the disc? Thoughts? Is it a full carbon wheel or carbon cover over spokes?

It's full carbon mate.

These wheels look really good, especially for the price. I'm looking at getting the disc. Has anybody here used the disc?

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101Ironman Hacks & Newsletter: http://ironmanhacks.com/newsletter/

YouTube interviews with legends like Mark Allen, Dave Scott, many more: https://www.youtube.com/...s?sub_confirmation=1

Same. I am trying to decide whether I should buy a 3K (AUD) Super 9 or $1600 on the Elemental disc with DT hubs... I can't seem to find an objective user review of the Elemental disc

In the Trustpilot reviews (which are almost all 5/5) those that didn't give 5/5 seemed to suggest the skewers weren't ideal

If it's only that the skewers aren't ideal, no issue, as those are easy to change.

I'm also considering a Super 9, and have found some good deals online - around your price, maybe a bit cheaper (AUD $2,700: https://www.bike24.com/p234985.html)

With the Super 9 you know you're getting a good wheel (ok, you think you are, due to their popularity and good marketing) but the Elemental could go either way with so few reviews. Only thing you're sure of is it's not expensive...hmmm....

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101Ironman Hacks & Newsletter: http://ironmanhacks.com/newsletter/

YouTube interviews with legends like Mark Allen, Dave Scott, many more: https://www.youtube.com/...s?sub_confirmation=1

Are you in Australia? How would you get the Super 9 to AU through bike24 (they won't ship directly).

Nope, I'm in Singapore...haven't looked into shipping.

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101Ironman Hacks & Newsletter: http://ironmanhacks.com/newsletter/

YouTube interviews with legends like Mark Allen, Dave Scott, many more: https://www.youtube.com/...s?sub_confirmation=1

[$400 wheels for $1000][/quote]

You obviously have no idea about these wheels or what the hell you're talking about mate!

I've won 11 UltraCycling World Titles on them, 5 European Titles, over a dozen World Records, and 3 Solo Race Across Americas on them. In total I've raced about 100,000 miles on them and never even had a spoke break!

The same can't be said for Zipp, HED or Corima that I used before that!

Do you even have any or tried any, or are you just talking crap about something you know nothing about??

I suspect the latter!!!

Hoppo

4 Time Solo RAAM Finisher and Jure Robic Award Winner
11 Time WUCA Champion and UltraCyclist of Distinction

You obviously have no idea about these wheels or what the hell you're talking about mate!

I've won 11 UltraCycling World Titles on them, 5 European Titles, over a dozen World Records, and 3 Solo Race Across Americas on them. In total I've raced about 100,000 miles on them and never even had a spoke break!

The same can't be said for Zipp, HED or Corima that I used before that!

Do you even have any or tried any, or are you just talking crap about something you know nothing about??

I suspect the latter!!!

Hoppo

4 Time Solo RAAM Finisher and Jure Robic Award Winner
11 Time WUCA Champion and UltraCyclist of Distinction[/quote]

Mic drop.