nice one!

maybe your seatpost is too high

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It doesn't exist if there aren't any pics.

But seriously, I've heard you say "notice your hands" and "what are you looking at when you breathe" and whatnot lately. I'd love to get to that swim clinic in Austin but I'm nursing my shoulder right now. Bad timing.

So do you have anything published here on what my hands should look like during my stroke? Should I look at the bottom of the pool, or my feet, etc?

I get that you want us to pay more attention to what we're actually doing. That's cool, sometimes I realize that I've been "just swimming" halfway through my workout and not really focusing on mechanics.

Please don't post pics of a seatpost stuck in your butt.

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Your favorite mafia sucks.

I think the problem was that I put astroglide on my chamois and used a very narrow seat.

DougStern

Come to clinic anyway. We will have a major exchange of ideas on how to swim.

Looking at the bottom of the pool might be the most streamline position for swimming but you cannot learn to swim by looking downward. You need feedback and your line of sight is integral to the learning process.

If you are going to breathe to the right, extend your right arm, flex your wrist so tht you can see the palm of you hand. This locks the front of your body as your kick locks that rear of your body. You can now rotate your hips. Imagine that the word "hip" is written on the palm of your hand. So youhve flexed your wrist, you see the word "hip" start to open your hip on that side and then immediately start your head rotating in sync with your shoulder rotation.

Tha is what I mean when I say, "notice your hand."

I am typing this while standing because I still cannot get that seatpost out. Any ideas?

DougStern

well that was your mistake. astroglide is water soluble, you should have used Bodyglide. Now the seatpost is stuck because you have no lube. that's what you get for trying to ride your bike in the pool.

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I'm confused. If I'm looking at the palm of my hands, aren't I looking downward?

Notice your hands when you swim.

Listen to the man.

As a former competetive swimmer, I find it highly amusing that one can read 1000 posts about how to swim and see nothing about the hands. I can honestly say that 90% of the stuff you guys talk about when you lament about your swimming, I never thought or cared about back in the day. But I always knew EXACTLY what my hands were doing on each and every stroke.

I knew that I shoud not have tried to mix activities. Boy am I embarrassed!

DougStern

Your arm is gliding forward on the surface of the water. Flex your wrist before you pull back. Keep your elbows up as your hand goes down.

Practice standing with an arm overhead. Flex your wrist and look at it. Now do it in the pool.

DougStern

Doug,

I love these visualization techniques. Do your fingers point to the bottom of the pool at all times until you close your armpit and your hand passes your hip line?



Dev

After swimming competitively for 51 years I still marvel at how my hands move and feel the water. It is so much fun.

DougStern

Once your flex your wrist your fingers point to the bottom of the pool until they reesner the water again.

Stand by a wall with your butt against (take out the seat post), place your hand on the wall by your hip with your fingers pointing downward. Slide your hand up the wall. Notice where your fingers are still pointing.

Place both hand overhead palms touching. Keep your palms touching while you bring your hands in front of your face. Notice the position of your hands and fingers. They have not changed position.

DougStern

i love this stuff. when you grasp the essence of the movement...and know what it should look and feel like when its right...it really does become that much more fun.

lots of folks around here are looking forward to your west Michigan visit next month.

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

Hands, cool.....I don't swim except when I race and thats where all my concentration goes. Where are my hands and what am I doing with them. I must be doing something right, then. I only swim train the morning of a race. I swim to the first bouy and take notice of which way I am curving off path that day. I then adjust my stroke accordingly to swim a straight line. My only other thought during the swim is to keep a high elbow to allow my fingers to stay just off the water as I recover. This helps keep me relaxed.

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.
.
Paul

After swimming competitively for 51 years I still marvel at how my hands move and feel the water. It is so much fun.


I am convinced my great "feel for the water" came at least in part from spending hours riding around in my parents' unairconditioned car with my hand stuck out the window "playing" with the air, tipping my hand fractions of a degree and feeling the air flow change. I did it because I was bored (no incar DVD player either . . .) but I beleive it it did help sensitize my hands to small pressure changes. Unfortunately these days the windows are always rolled up. A/C in cars has ruined a great training ground for swimmers.

Jim,

I will be in Grand Haven Dec. 9-11th. Looking forward to meeting you.

DougStern

Should the elbow stay at the surface? So the hand goes down but the humerous is in the same plane as the surface?

Should I continue looking at my hand as it moves down and back, or keep my head/gaze forward?

I used to do the same thing.

I still do it on my motorcycle.

We do a lot of sculling drills to feel pressure differentials on the hand.

DougStern

Yes, humerous stays on the surface. Do not follow the hand by looking back. Breathe by only looking to the side



DougStern

I am out of here.

I am off to chop wood.

Keep writing I will get back to you all on Sunday.

DougStern

If you ever look at old footage of Mark Spitz, you will see him flex his wrist at the end of his reach, just before the catch. That's exactly what you are talking about. And it seems so mechanical for him, just automatic.

Where can I get info on Doug's clinic schedule? I don't find anything updated on his website, but maybe I overlooked it.

From this thread:

"Seatpost stuck in my butt"

"I put astroglide on my chamois"

"I still marvel at how my hands move"

"I am off to chop wood."

"It is so much fun."

"Boy am I embarrassed!" --you should be.

Speaking of hands, should the fingers be spread apart, tightly together or somewhere in between?

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

That is what fast swimmers do!

DougStern

Comfortable. I keep them slightly apart and never tightly together.

DougStern

I will be posting the new year this week.

Swimming clinics in New Yoirk all start the first week in January.

I will be in Curacao from Jan. 20-29th.

Ski-swim vacation training from Marh 1-5 in Park City, Utah.

Openwater swim camp weekend of May 13th.

Highland Triathlon May 20th.

The rest I do not have a clue.

DougStern

I am over my embarrassment and back to writing.

This goes to show you how so many activties seem similiar and are fun to do.

DougStern

Doug,

How can I sign up for the Grand Haven clinic? Will you post when final info is available?

Thanks,

Pat

Pat,

Send Trianthes a private mesage to sign up.

DougStern

Worst part--the saddle slid right in as well.

It just goes to show you what happens when I am an a-hole.

DougStern

Doug --As nice as you are, and all that, screw you and everyone who can swim. And that will continue to be my position until I find someone who is smart enough to teach me how to swim rather than claw my way to survival. Sorry, but that is just how it is.

Monk,

Your anger is getting in the way of your learning. Put up or shut up. I can teach you to swim. Now we just have to figure out where and when.

DougStern

Actually, it may be worth flying someplace. We are talking triage. We are talking 1:22 at IMFL--bouyant salty waters of the Gulf of Mexico and a wetsuit.

Where is someplace?

But then I am thinking, isn't it swimming lessonS, not lesson?

Then there is also the problem of doing what I am told. Aren't old people a pain in the ass--like as bad as a seatpost?

Actually, this is worth considering.

Come to Beautiful Grand Haven, MI for a clinic to be put on by Doug on Dec 9 - 11. I will be posting the details in the very near future.

I don't know if a clinic will do it. I need personal attention--a team of professional working around the clock, probably including at least two mental health professionals.

I will do this, but I need to wait until March--then a full court press. I look forward to putting in, oh, say 200 hours to knock five minutes off my swim time.

Ok - but it sounds like swimming is actually an aneurysm for your personal life?

Monk,

I am in New York City. I teach 70 year old people who are terrified of the water to swim. I have worked with stroke victims with club feet. I have worked with someone with one leg.

The only thing that is in your way is you.

When you are finished feeling sorry about your swimming and want to do something about it, get in touch with me.

DougStern

Hey Doug, let me ask you another visualization question. On my Friday swim, I noted that my shoulder roll is poor (no big secret there). Ever since I separated my shoulder in 2003, I have had difficulty with full mobility on the left side of my entire upper body. At least I did so initially. So when I am gliding on the right side of my body, the left shoulder is not "up in the air" but still pushing water, rendering a rather "barge like" frontal hydrodynamic profile. To try and solve this barge like frontal, I envisioned pulling the left shoulder blade out of the water as I extend my right hand. Not sure if this is the right thing to do.

Perhaps you can give us some more tips on how to improved hip and shoulder roll. I need something really simple to focus on, an image or keyword, so that I can throw one keyword into my brain while racing and making it happen "automajically".

I will, but I hate New York City, if that is OK. The people were OK, but the whole transportation situation made me feel out of control.

I have to get some things out of the way, and then I will plan a trip up. I assume that there is some fleabag hotel near the pool where you teach? You would have to agree to no kick-boards, no "pressing the T", no pulling myself over a barrel. Also, do I have to put my face in the water?

I was swimming in the ocean here a little over a year ago, and it looked so bad someone called 911 and they called a Coast Guard helicopter and the lifeguards were four-wheeling down the beach towards me.

Thanks. I was watching my hand today while swimming. I think it helped.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I'll match Monk and raise him one...I had a 1:55 swim last week at IMFL. Small disclaimer...I did just learn to swim this past year, I just can't seem to get it. I think I may need a trip to the city this winter too. But be warned Doug, my initial swim coach had more trouble with my attitude than my technique;O). There were moments when I looked like Norman trying to change a flat.

I do have a question about where to look. Should we be looking down at all? Or are we looking more forward towards the end of the pool and seeing our hands at the start of the catch?

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Nancy
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Trianthes:

How many openings are there for the clinic in Grand Haven? Send me a PM on the details for signing up for this swim clinic.

DP - I'm not convinced that more roll = more speed. Look at the really fast fellas. They are much flatter than most. Experiment for yourself when kicking. I am much faster when face down flat than when on one side. Maybe there are other factors that cause that, but it's just one test.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Aztec,

The roll is at your hip not your shoulder. Your shoulders are much flatter than your hips.

DougStern

Monk,

If you like skiing I am going to be in Park City, UT from March 1-6 for skiing in the A.M. and swimming in the P.M. I will be working with people then. The pool is just off Route 80 near PArk City.

DougStern

Paul,

I thought about your situation. Each person is an experiment of one. As adults we are all damaged goods with individual strengths and weaknesses. I would have to see you swim to give you further instruction. Perhaps your coach can offer some suggestions.

DougStern

Nancy,

This is a tough question.

From all the reading I have done and seen, world class swimmers keep their heads low in the water. I cannot speak for their line of sight.

You might sacrifice a bit of fore-aft aligment by looking slightly forward but it is so worth it when learning to find your hands and arms.

I do a tremendous amount of swimming with a center snorkel where I never move my head. I use my periferal vision to locate my hands as I swim. I kep my head in a neutral position.

DougStern

Doug,

Thanks for the info. Yes, a live coach needs to have a look at what I am doing. Unfortunately, 90% of my swimming is solo, the other 10% is with a "group" in races. As for damaged goods, yes, the entire left side of my body is off a bit from that shoulder separation.



Aztec, I will work from the hips. Like any technical sport, all the motions orginate in your core, so this only makes sense.

Dev

nancy, will this picture help you?

forgive the pathetic drawing, but the key is not so much what your eyes are doing or where you are sighting, more important is what your head is doing:

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Where would you want to swim ?

When I saw "Seatpost stuck in my butt", I thought you were talking about this picture



where instead of using a saddle he inserted the seatpost directly in his butt ;-)

Doug, have you tried the Speed Hydralign goggles? I got a pair just to see (they are a cheap investment at $15) and I love them. They take some getting used to, but I definitely feel like I'm swimming better, and I had a couple of breakthrough swim sets using them. It is a weird sensation at first, since you can see in front of you even when you look down (due to the angled lenses), so you will likely do a couple of flip-turns too far from the wall at first. But once you get used to them, they are really great. I felt that my head position was off from doing Masters swims and looking up to make sure I didn't crash into people near the walls, and the Hydralign goggles seemed to help. They seem to be a great training tool based on my 3 months of use.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I once did a triathon two weeks after a bike crash. I neglected to closely inspect my entire bike.

After finishing first the swim I jumped onto my bike only to find that the rails which hold the seat to the post fell to the ground. My two choices were to bag the race or ride for 25 miles while seated with my knees pinched together.

I elected to finish the bike on a somewhat hilly course. I was once again first into the transition area. As I dismounted the set fell to the ground. My inner thighs were shattered and I could barely run. After running for a mile I was passed by the eventual winner who yelled at me, you swimmers surely cannot run well." After the race we spoke and I related my story. We had a good laugh. He still maintained that I could not run well.

DougStern

What does April look like?

I would like to give them a try. Who makes them and where can I get them?

I will do a search.

thanks,

DougStern

I bought mine at the pool, but I know Keifer sells them. The Speedo Hydralign. I have the "training" version, where the lower half of the lense is "frosted," and upper half is angled (the "racing" version does not have the frosting). The frosting keeps you from cheating and looking down with your eyes but not your head. I'll be interested to hear your comments.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Monk,

So far April is wide open.

Where do you live?

DougStern

Thanks Doug and Greg. My week off comes to an end tomorrow morning when I'll have my face in the water again. I'll mess around with "eyeing" my hands and head position to keep myself motivated.

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Nancy
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i realized you did also ask about sighting.

in a shallow pool, say 3 to 4 ft. deep, i look down, but well ahead of my body, many yards ahead of my body. it is difficult to give an exact no., but with my head position, and my eyes slightly rolled up in their sockets, i can easily see the kicking bubbles if i am right behind a swimmer ahead of me.

i can also easily see the bubbles and churning and sometimes feet of a swimmer ahead of me in open water, but again i must be right behind him/her.

do you, or can you, get some one-on-one swim and technique coaching? that would probably make a big difference for you if you are a beginner.

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Where would you want to swim ?

Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. April should be pretty nice in New York--little green buds starting to sprout in Central Park. Sun in your face. The annual renewal.

Hey Doug,

Ever thought about coming down to Atlanta for a clinic? I know a bunch of peeps who would be interested.

I really shouldn't be debating swim technique, but heck, why not?

I'm skeptical about the above statement (beyond the importance of core stability, that is). Lots of golf instructors insist that the hips/core drive the swing. Yet... I can make a swing using only the arms and/or arms and shoulders. Zero hips. The ball will travel about 80% of the distance of a fluid and "complete" swing. That is if you don't massively hook it! Of course, I can also hit my putter >125 yards with a reasonable fade, while YMMV. :-)

Anyway, hips really play more of an alignment roll than contribute much to power. I'm not sure the hips really do much in swimming other than put your lats in a better position to pull?

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Anyway, hips really play more of an alignment roll than contribute much to power. I'm not sure the hips really do much in swimming other than put your lats in a better position to pull?

This is exactly what I was thinking the other day. They also connect your upper and lower body, so proper hip rotation should be required to get the correct lower body alignment (ie no fishtailing).

Any plans for a Detroit area clinic?

Maybe. But then again, you might still not fishtail even without any hip action. With a PB, I use zero kick, and therefore zero hip (since the kick is what rotates/sets the hips) and yet don't fishtail. Hmmph.

Also, I'm not sure about Doug's statement about rotating more at the hips than shoulders. I'm pretty sure I rotate as one -- like a log. If not, then more above the waist than below it. Maybe that's why I suck!

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

People have asked. If you can find me a pool I can come down in April or Mid March.

DougStern

Contact Trianthes. He is putting one on in Grand HAven Dec. 9-11th.

DougStern

Aztec,

Your shoulders are fairly flat and your hips rotate more. This is what fast swimmers do to generate great forces.

DogStern

Not sure who your post about finding a pool was for, but if it was in reference to Atlanta there's a good chance that we can make it happen.

Anyone in Atlanta. It is only a 2 hour flight.

DougStern