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The CIA's Secret Prisons
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What say you fellow LR contributors? Do you or I really need to know what the CIA is doing with terrorists? I wonder who "leaked" this information to the Post? Its most likely a disgruntled CIA employee. Did they not put an entire operation at risk by leaking the story? Is this "outing" OK because its in the publics best interest to know?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2005110101644.html
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am sure our friends here will be demanding an investigation into this leak. I am sure they are shocked, shocked to see that the CIA leaks to the NY Times.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Do you or I really need to know what the CIA is doing with terrorists?
-- If they keep them in secret prisons abroad b/c it would be illegal to do so in the US, and if prisoners' rights and laws of the 'host' country such as speaking to an attorney are being violated, then HELL yes.

I wonder who "leaked" this information to the Post? Its most likely a disgruntled CIA employee.
-- Or one who has common sense. A matter of interpretation, I guess.

Did they not put an entire operation at risk by leaking the story?
-- I think that's what they wanted, but I don't see how lives are at risk,

Is this "outing" OK because its in the publics best interest to know?
-- Yup! that is, not b/c it's in the public's best interest, but it uncovers illegal activity.
[url "http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html[/url][/reply]


Josef
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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By illegal activity, do you refer to the leak or the prisons?

Do you want a prosecutor appointed to track down the source of the leak?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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Or one who has common sense. A matter of interpretation, I guess.

Yea common sense. Thats it. Nobody with an axe to grind or anything.



I think that's what they wanted, but I don't see how lives are at risk,

Well lets start by the fact that because of this leak there will be a huge witch hunt in the countries where the prisons are. Every one of the CIA agents will be at risk for being identified. Real covert agents doing real covert work.

Yup! that is, not b/c it's in the public's best interest, but it uncovers illegal activity

No its not illegal which is why the prisons are not on US soil.



I just don't understand why so many people are so concerned with giving terrorists the same rights we enjoy. They are terrorists for crying out loud and would just as soon waste you and your family as look at you. And for what? Because you are not Muslim? Please, they do are not entitled to rights. What did they do to earn them?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Do you want a prosecutor appointed to track down the source of the leak?

Of course he doesn't want a prosecutor to investigate the leak. That may cause a reporter to have to give up their source at the CIA or go to jail.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Post: Do you want a prosecutor appointed to track down the source of the leak?

Of course he doesn't want a prosecutor to investigate the leak. That may cause a reporter to have to give up their source at the CIA or go to jail.

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Listen, dudes: Instead of being snarky, why don't you make an attempt at a real conversation? You have your mind already made up, I guess. Why do you start this thread then? To pound on 'liberals'? I don't get it.

Read the article (it's for free w/ registration). In it, it says that some local laws may be broken in those secret prisons. BTW, I wasn't aware that secret prisons by other countries are legal elsewhere.

As for the prosecutor: If some laws have been broken, sure, go after those guys. If it's under the 'whistle blower' statue (not sure what this would entail - I'm no lawyer), then it's all good, I'd say.

But, can you see the difference between calling scores of journalists and naming an undercover agent by name, or saying, 'there's a country in Eastern Europe where the CIA holds prisoners in a secret facility'. ?

You don't think that's news? Frankly, it scares the crap outta me, particularly in combination with Cheney's/Goss's attempt to exempt CIA operatives from the no-torture law being tossed around in the Senate. I just don't think that's how you win peace. Just because somebody does something out of being 'disgruntled' as you call it (again, others would say critical of a situation, concerned, etc.), doesn't mean the outcome is bad. My 2 cents.

Josef


Josef
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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You've of course forgotten that if the CIA has them in a secret prison and is torturing them, then they must by definition be terrorists, and therefore we can write them out of humanity. Because the CIA never, ever makes mistakes. Or for that matter, ethical lapses. And we as citizens should just assume that they always have our best interests at heart and that it could never happen to us, right? And let's not forget that an enlightened democracy always has to have its own gulag, like, oh, I don't know, the old Soviet Union perhaps?

What did they used to say about the terrorists winning?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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Listen, dudes: Instead of being snarky, why don't you make an attempt at a real conversation? You have your mind already made up, I guess. Why do you start this thread then? To pound on 'liberals'? I don't get it.

Point taken and my apologies. I did come across as being "snarky" whatever that is;) I really do want to know what people think about this. I feel we must have a paradigm shift in dealing with the this new world of terrorism. The enemy of today does not fight under the flag of a sovereign government wearing an easily identified uniform. We have had this discussion before about whether or not they should be afforded Geneva Convention rights. It is admittedly a gray area but given the way the terrorists operate I am in favor of erring on the side of denying rights as opposed to granting them.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, from the perspective of a former member of the military here is my take on this. It occurs to me that even though I have only been around for some 40+ years, for the past 100-years or so, during times of war or military action, the one thing that has consistently set the US apart from the 'bad guys' is our refusal to compromise on moral high ground. Despite the oppositions actions during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm, the US did not (for the most part) ever mistreat opposition forces once they were captured. Without pointing fingers or naming names as has become so popular these days, I can not say that this is necessarily true under the current administration and leaves me to wonder at what point did we give up our stake to the moral high ground?

More importantly, for what ever reason - lets say a unified military aliance amoung several middle and far eastern countries that do not care for the US - there may come a time when we find that we are not the toughest kids on the block. I would hate to see how this plays out should such situation arise and our soldiers and/or citizens find themselves under lock and key of a foreign power. So with that in mind, are secret prisons and prsioner abuse scandals really the kinds of global precedents we want to be setting forth for other countries with less refined moral distinctions?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

I just don't understand why so many people are so concerned with giving terrorists the same rights we enjoy. They are terrorists for crying out loud and would just as soon waste you and your family as look at you. And for what? Because you are not Muslim? Please, they do are not entitled to rights. What did they do to earn them?


When were the trials held that determined that these people are terrorists? I must have missed them on Court TV. I mean, you said they are terrorists, so they must have been convicted somewhere, right? You didn't mean to say that the government *thinks* they are terrorists, and therefore can do just as they please with them? This is circular logic: they are terrorists, therefore they don't deserve due process; they don't deserve due process because they are terrorists.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am in favor of erring on the side of denying rights as opposed to granting them.

That's a pretty sad quote. So you don't see a problem with the CIA rounding up people in the streets, taking them to some "secret" prison and torturing "information" out of them? What if after all of this they find out they got the wrong person? What do we say "Woops, sorry we thought you were a terrorist so you didn't have any rights?"

America should be better than this. Wasn't one of the reasons for the Iraq war because Saddam was a brutal dictator who arrested and tortured people with no trial? With these prisons aren't we guilty of the same?

However, I'm not surprised that these exist and I'd bet it is much more prevelant than most people would think. Sad really, we are supposed to be about freedom and respect for all. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I know these people more than likely aren't American citizens, but that shouldn't change how we treat them.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
This is circular logic: they are terrorists, therefore they don't deserve due process; they don't deserve due process because they are terrorists.
Please, Ken - it's hardly "logic" at all - it's the emotional response of a scared child, rather than a reasoned response of someone who is proud of his own country. And that's just the way the Republicans want Americans to be - like scared little children, who will let them do whatever they want in the name of "protection" and "freedom," no matter how obviously ineffective the government's actions are.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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"The enemy of today does not fight under the flag of a sovereign government wearing an easily identified uniform."

So how can we be sure that the only residents of these secret prisons are terrorist and not just Akbar from the gas station?

If the prisons need to be secret there is something sinister going on....Why are they secret?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, ATG.

I think it makes more sense than not to afford these prisoners the benefit of the doubt (at least as it appears to them).
-- Human decency: do we really want to stoop to levels this low?
-- Diplomacy: Say there's a small percentage of those prisoners who are not guilty. If only a fraction of those people have some credibility at home when they get back, do we want them to say, 'they tortured me', or 'I was wrongly imprisoned but treated humanely'. The difference, IMO, is huge.
-- Best I can tell, confessions obtained under duress and torture often are grossly incorrect. Also as far as I know, in the long run 'soft' interviewing tactics are more successful in obtaining good results than 'hard' ones.

But the overriding thing for ME is that these prisoners are still people, and no human being, how cruel (or innocent they may be), deserves to be treated this way. If they're guilty, lock 'em up and throw away the key. But if some hotheaded kid throws a rock at some US soldiers b/c they kicked down his front door in error, ends up in Abu Ghraib, and ends up in such a world of hurt because of it, that just ain't right. They can't do it in the US - OK, let's do it in [insert your country] where torture is condoned. I don't see how that's right.

This is a beautiful and great country (I say that as a legal immigrant and I hope you don't discard my opinion because of it), but I think of this human rights/POW issue (separate from the war on terror) as a real stain on US history.

Josef


Josef
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [cholla] [ In reply to ]
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dude, but that post doesn't help at all. McCain sponsored the anti-POW abuse law, above after all.

I think this issue is too important to let your own arguments be undermined by cheap shots.

'Republicans' is not the same as' Administration', just as liberal is not the same as 'Democrat'.


Josef
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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You seem bent on baiting people this morning, and while you appeared to retract your initial reply to me, I'm in the mood to reply, if for no reason than there were a couple of slow pitches in there.

You seem to live in a world of absolute moral and informational certainty. That must be nice. People in secret CIA installations, with no oversight by other bodies, must by definition be terrorists. How do we know? Because they say so. Then it must be. Why bother with trials and all of that? If the CIA and ATG say they are terrorists, then death to all who oppose us!

As for my "disgusting" comparison to the Soviet-era gulag, let's see? The Soviets routinely imprisoned and tortured "enemies of the state" in a network of secret prisons without trial or anything remotely resembling due process. And who knows, maybe a few them were actual seditionists or conspirators, so I guess that makes the whole gulag justifiable, eh? Is this comparison that amazing, or is that you just can't wrap your mind around any behavior that compares us to the evil empire?

Let's use a firm example, shall we? One of the Administration "triumphs" has been the arrest of Jose Padilla, a US citizen, allegedly for planning a dirty bomb attack. If you actually look at the facts here, he was apparently arrested for nothing more than looking at some drawings at the internet and maybe talking some. He had no conceivable way of accessing radioactive material, and as a low level gangster type, could not be seen to. If he could, we would've had bigger problems by now from more sophisticated enemies. Yet he's been held indefinitely, without a plan for prosecution, or any habeas corpus, as far as I can tell. What do you call that? If that's the basis of their accusation, we can pretty much lock up half the 12-year olds in this country for googling atomic bomb plans on the Internet.

As other have pointed out, we are supposed to be better than this. This is why we were admired around the world, this ability to raise ourselves above the fray and willingness to air our own dirty laundry in public in order to make sure the embarrassment and scrutiny would never let it get dirty again. And that we would never imbue a small number of people with the ability to yank people off the street, never to be heard from again, like the feared secret police of many of the countries we claim as "tyrannical".


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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At the federal level, the Republicans have supported almost everything that the administration wants to do, almost 100%. Lots of Dems did, too. The Republicans control the Congress, and have completely abdicated their oversight responsibilities. The polls indicate that 3/4 of rank and file Republicans STILL support this administration. And, you almost never hear anything from a Republican critical of the administration. These people should be outraged by this administration in so many ways, that I don't even know where to begin - but they're not, because they put their party before their country.

The fact is, there is a "culture of fear" being cultivated that would make our forefathers turn on their graves. Terrorism is a real threat - and is likely to always be so - and the administration is living off of our endless fears, while doing little to nothing to minimize the likelihood of another attack (actually, the Bush administration is making it worse). Until that changes, I stand by my comments.

By the way, McCain is my Senator, and to see him at Bush's side in the wake of what Bush did to him in 2000 is sickening. Is it necessary for his continued politcal survival and '08 prospects for him to kiss ass like that? Perhaps. Is it honorable? No way.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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That's a pretty sad quote. So you don't see a problem with the CIA rounding up people in the streets, taking them to some "secret" prison and torturing "information" out of them? What if after all of this they find out they got the wrong person? What do we say "Woops, sorry we thought you were a terrorist so you didn't have any rights?"

America should be better than this. Wasn't one of the reasons for the Iraq war because Saddam was a brutal dictator who arrested and tortured people with no trial? With these prisons aren't we guilty of the same?

However, I'm not surprised that these exist and I'd bet it is much more prevelant than most people would think. Sad really, we are supposed to be about freedom and respect for all. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I know these people more than likely aren't American citizens, but that shouldn't change how we treat them.




Look I am NOT in favor of torturing anybody and not saying a prisoner should not be treated humanely. There are varying opinions on what is considered torture and what is considered hard tactics. Some of the tactics I have read about, in my opinion, do not constitute abuse. I am not going to rehash the whole Abu Grahib thing and hope you do not either. I do think we need to continue the moral highground as it relates to how we handle prisoners/detainees. That being said I am just not willing to give them the same rights to out legal system you and I enjoy. Call me naive but I am not an interrorgator and neither are you and at some point you have to be willing to let the experts do their job.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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My only reaction to this is that I am surprised people are surprised. I mean, I didn't even think they were trying to keep it secret.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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So, then if we aren't torturing them and we are treating them humanely then what is the purpose of keeping the prison secret from everyone? I actually wish you hadn't even brought up Abu Grahib as that horse has been beaten way too far. Hopefully, no one else brings it up.

How are we going to keep the "moral highground" if we maintain secret prisons? It's just not possible. People are ALWAYS going to assume that if the prison is secret that something is going on there that shouldn't be.

Of course these people don't enjoy the same rights as American citizens, but that doesn't mean we should be able to pick anyone up off the street and hold them in perpetuity.

And I am no expert on interrogation, but that still doesn't mean that because I don't know anything about it that I think torture and most abuse should be considered acceptable because "you have to be willing to let the experts do their job".

If you don't support torture what's your take on the admin's request to exempt the CIA from the new Torture legislation?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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Tyrius --

The only reason I can think of for having secret prisons is to keep both the identities of the prisoners and the fact of their capture secret. My limited understanding of some of the terrorist cells is that they communicate covertly often with little face to face or real-time communication. Thus, if it is publicized that cell y or terrorist x has been captured, our guys can no longer pose as them and work to capture or infiltrate the organization further.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Brick] [ In reply to ]
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I have no problem with keeping the locations of the prisons and the prisoners secret from the masses, however, there needs to be some accountability. Saddam's location was always kept secret, however, there were oversight organizations that were able to visit and ensure that everything was on the up and up. I don't have a problem with that.

However, if these prisons "just don't exist" outside of the CIA then as we have already seen there is a lot of potential for major problems. Particularly if the CIA is exempt from torture regulations.

I think keeping the location and names of prisoners secret from most everyone in the world is fine, however, there needs to be a group/organization/whatever that has access to ensure that the CIA is acting on the up and up.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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I have no problem with keeping the locations of the prisons and the prisoners secret from the masses, however, there needs to be some accountability. Saddam's location was always kept secret, however, there were oversight organizations that were able to visit and ensure that everything was on the up and up. I don't have a problem with that.

However, if these prisons "just don't exist" outside of the CIA then as we have already seen there is a lot of potential for major problems. Particularly if the CIA is exempt from torture regulations.

I think keeping the location and names of prisoners secret from most everyone in the world is fine, however, there needs to be a group/organization/whatever that has access to ensure that the CIA is acting on the up and up.




I agree with you. I think the problem is who will it be? I don't trust Amnesty International or any of the other so called human rights agencies. Its a catch 22. We need the checks and balances but agreeing who will do it will be difficult.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
What say you fellow LR contributors? Do you or I really need to know what the CIA is doing with terrorists? I wonder who "leaked" this information to the Post? Its most likely a disgruntled CIA employee. Did they not put an entire operation at risk by leaking the story? Is this "outing" OK because its in the publics best interest to know?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2005110101644.html




Ummmmm dude, screw the operation. The CIA is stealing money from the taxpayer and misleading Congress, not to mention that little torture thing.

Screw the operation, they are putting the damn Constitution at risk. We are a nation of laws, some people seem to have forgotten that. First Libby, Rove, and Cheney, aid and abet the enemy by releasing the name of a covert CIA agent during time of war (that used to be called treason, not perjury) now the CIA is misleading Congress and operating torture chambers on foreign soil funded by your tax dollars.

Remember this is the same CIA that told us the existence of WMDs was a "slam dunk"....and you think its OK for them to make arbitrary decisions to pick people up off the street and torture them????

So much for bringing integrity back to the White House.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Nov 3, 05 15:21
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Ask Johnny S. or Val P. how they're feeling right now. I'm sure the folks over at 2430 E. St NW in DC are rather pissed about now.

- kd

kestrel driver


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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First Libby, Rove, and Cheney, aid and abet the enemy by releasing the name of a covert CIA agent during time of war



Wow. Congratulations you were able to scoop the MSM on this. When were Libby, Roove and Cheney indicted for releasing a covert CIA agents name?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Scandalous, you bet!!!!

arrrgggh!!!

kestrel driver


DonorsChoose.org (!!!)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to live in a world of absolute moral and informational certainty. That must be nice. People in secret CIA installations, with no oversight by other bodies, must by definition be terrorists. How do we know? Because they say so. Then it must be. Why bother with trials and all of that? If the CIA and ATG say they are terrorists, then death to all who oppose us!



Actually I do live in a world of moral absolutes not relativeism like you apparently do. There is good and evil, right and wrong. So you would in fact allow a terrorist captured on a battlefield, not fighting for a country or wearing an identifiable uniform the right to a speedy trial huh? Well its a good thing we aren't relying on you to gather intelligence.

As for my "disgusting" comparison to the Soviet-era gulag, let's see? The Soviets routinely imprisoned and tortured "enemies of the state" in a network of secret prisons without trial or anything remotely resembling due process. And who knows, maybe a few them were actual seditionists or conspirators, so I guess that makes the whole gulag justifiable, eh? Is this comparison that amazing, or is that you just can't wrap your mind around any behavior that compares us to the evil empire?

And I stand by my comment its disgusting to make even a remote comparison to a secret CIA prison and a Soviet gulag. That comparison played well with you on the left last year with Abu Grahib so why not trot out the same old playbook huh? As far as wrapping my mind around any behaviour comparing us to the evil empire well you got me there because I can't. Fortunately most Americans feel the same way.

Let's use a firm example, shall we? One of the Administration "triumphs" has been the arrest of Jose Padilla, a US citizen, allegedly for planning a dirty bomb attack. If you actually look at the facts here, he was apparently arrested for nothing more than looking at some drawings at the internet and maybe talking some. He had no conceivable way of accessing radioactive material, and as a low level gangster type, could not be seen to. If he could, we would've had bigger problems by now from more sophisticated enemies. Yet he's been held indefinitely, without a plan for prosecution, or any habeas corpus, as far as I can tell. What do you call that? If that's the basis of their accusation, we can pretty much lock up half the 12-year olds in this country for googling atomic bomb plans on the Internet.

Not sure I would characterize Padilla as a triumph. And since you say look at the "facts" then lets shall we? Can you provide information as to who he knew and what he might be capable of doing from his low level gangster position? I for one don't think that applying the standard to 12 year olds on the internet is the same thing here.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I do live in a world of moral absolutes <> There is good and evil, right and wrong.

That's an interesting position to claim, in this context. I guess torture is morally good and right?

And I stand by my comment its disgusting to make even a remote comparison to a secret CIA prison and a Soviet gulag.

Why? Seriously.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

And I stand by my comment its disgusting to make even a remote comparison to a secret CIA prison and a Soviet gulag.

Why? Seriously.


DUhhhhhhh! when we kidnap people, imprison them illegally and torture them its done to promote freedom and democracy. When the Soviets did it it was to promote nasty Communism.

Can't you see the difference?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Is that something like saying that we're good, because our government is free and open and doesn't imprison people without trial in secret prisons and torture them, and that since we're good, it's OK if we imprison people in secret prisons and torture them?

I think I'm starting to get it now, thanks for the help.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You got it.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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And now there's this: http://news.yahoo.com/...u/cia_secret_prisons

Art's right, this gamesmanship stuff is complicated.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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So not only are our secret prisons like old Soviet gulags, they are old Soviet gulags.

You gotta laugh.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Nov 3, 05 15:22
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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"If they keep them in secret prisons abroad b/c it would be illegal to do so in the US, and if prisoners' rights and laws of the 'host' country such as speaking to an attorney are being violated, then HELL yes."
- - Except that if the prisoners are being held for crimes that exempt them from the protections of the Geneva Accords (i.e., they're terrorists) then no international laws are being broken.

"Or one who has common sense. A matter of interpretation, I guess."
- - Out of curiosity, are you one of those who thinks that whoever outed Valerie Plame should be prosecuted?

Did they not put an entire operation at risk by leaking the story?
"-- I think that's what they wanted, but I don't see how lives are at risk,"
- - You don't? How about by inciting anti-American sentiment, by causing certain governments and their agents to consider endangering covert operatives working in their countries, by perhaps locating one or more of these prisons (assuming they exist) and targeting that facility for terrorist activities...

"Yup! that is, not b/c it's in the public's best interest, but it uncovers illegal activity."
- - It discloses classified, top-secret information, which is illegal, AND holding prisoners in these facilities may very well be legal.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
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"for the past 100-years or so, during times of war or military action, the one thing that has consistently set the US apart from the 'bad guys' is our refusal to compromise on moral high ground."
- - In times of war, yes. But terrorism falls under a completely different rubric.

"Despite the oppositions actions during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm, the US did not (for the most part) ever mistreat opposition forces once they were captured."
- - Opposition forces, yes, terrorists, no.

"at what point did we give up our stake to the moral high ground?"
- - What do you mean "we?"

"I would hate to see how this plays out should such situation arise and our soldiers and/or citizens find themselves under lock and key of a foreign power."
- - If you're talking about Muslim powers in the middle east, we already know our people will be tortured and beheaded.

"So with that in mind, are secret prisons and prsioner abuse scandals really the kinds of global precedents we want to be setting forth for other countries with less refined moral distinctions?"
- - No, which is why the person who leaked this should be in serious trouble.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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"When were the trials held that determined that these people are terrorists?"
- - If they were captured during terrorist activities, like attacking US forces in Iraq afte the cease-fire, then it goes without saying.

"I mean, you said they are terrorists, so they must have been convicted somewhere, right?"
- - Terrorists, or rather non-uniformed combatants, are easily identified by their lack of a uniform, flag or apparent affiliation.

"You didn't mean to say that the government *thinks* they are terrorists, and therefore can do just as they please with them?"
- - Our military and intelligence people are supposed to be able to figure this out. So if a guy is captured attempting to plant a bomb under a military vehicle, what would you call him?

"This is circular logic: they are terrorists, therefore they don't deserve due process; they don't deserve due process because they are terrorists."
- - Nothing circular about it. The Geneva Accords specifically require combatants to wear uniforms because by NOT wearing them, they put civilians at risk. When your enemy refuses to wear a uniform, you have to shoot anyone you see. That's what terrorists do to the dynamic of battle, and that's why the Geneva Accords don't offer any protection to the scum who would do that.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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""So with that in mind, are secret prisons and prsioner abuse scandals really the kinds of global precedents we want to be setting forth for other countries with less refined moral distinctions?"
- - No, which is why the person who leaked this should be in serious trouble. "

Holy shit. I can't believe the things you type.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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""That's a pretty sad quote. So you don't see a problem with the CIA rounding up people in the streets, taking them to some "secret" prison and torturing "information" out of them?"
- - Wow, that's a pretty far stretch. So you think we're just rounding up anyone we find? We're just classifying every Tom, Dick and Mohammad as a terrorist because we love having prisoners to interrogate?

"What if after all of this they find out they got the wrong person?"
- - You mean like when we had Bin Laden and let him go?

"America should be better than this. Wasn't one of the reasons for the Iraq war because Saddam was a brutal dictator who arrested and tortured people with no trial?"
- - Saddam arrested and tortured citizens of his own country simply because the expressed dissent.

"With these prisons aren't we guilty of the same?"
- - Not even close.

"What happened to innocent until proven guilty?"
- - That's a Constitutional right for all American citizens, and only applies within the borders of our country (as we noticed when terrorists were beheading innocent civilians recently).

"I know these people more than likely aren't American citizens, but that shouldn't change how we treat them."
- - Actually, it should.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"DUhhhhhhh! when we kidnap people, imprison them illegally and torture them its done to promote freedom and democracy. When the Soviets did it it was to promote nasty Communism."

Duhhhhhh!! When the soviets did it, they were arresting their own citizens. When we do it, we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings.

Seem the same to you?


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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"But the overriding thing for ME is that these prisoners are still people, and no human being, how cruel (or innocent they may be), deserves to be treated this way."
- - A man who worked for the same company that I used to work for was beheaded by the kind of people that you wish to treat humanely. I hope you'll understand my dissent.

"But if some hotheaded kid throws a rock at some US soldiers b/c they kicked down his front door in error, ends up in Abu Ghraib, and ends up in such a world of hurt because of it, that just ain't right."
- - Is there even the slightest chance that you think that scenario could occur? I sure hope you don't.

"They can't do it in the US - OK, let's do it in [insert your country] where torture is condoned. I don't see how that's right."
- - Someone here is making the leap from secret prisons to the assumption that prisoners are being tortured.

"This is a beautiful and great country (I say that as a legal immigrant and I hope you don't discard my opinion because of it), but I think of this human rights/POW issue (separate from the war on terror) as a real stain on US history."
- - Your status as a legal immigrant or even a new citizen would simply (or hopefully) make you more aware of the protections ensured us by our Constitution. I don't see how that could possibly diminish the value of your opinions. I hope you don't think my dissent has anything to do with your status, because it doesn't.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"Screw the operation, they are putting the damn Constitution at risk."

What the CIA does in foreign countries has nothing to do with the Constitution.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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"dude, but that post doesn't help at all. McCain sponsored the anti-POW abuse law, above after all."

Terrorists are not POWs.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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"As for my "disgusting" comparison to the Soviet-era gulag, let's see?"
- - It was extremely disgusting and unamerican. The Soviets held their own citizens in the gulags. How does that relate to our holding terrorists?


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Terrorists are not POWs.
--
That doesn't mean some CIA goon should be able to torture them without fear for retribution in some secret prison in Estonia, which was the gist of the bill McCain sponsored.


Josef
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [cholla] [ In reply to ]
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"These people should be outraged by this administration in so many ways, that I don't even know where to begin - but they're not, because they put their party before their country."
- - Maybe some people think that the left is doing that and that the current administration is doing what needs to be done to combat terrorism. It has, after all, been over four years since terrorists have struck in this country.

"The fact is, there is a "culture of fear" being cultivated that would make our forefathers turn on their graves."
- - Actually, what would cause the founding fathers to roll in their graves would be the idea of extending the rights of US Citizens to terrorists.

"Terrorism is a real threat - and is likely to always be so - and the administration is living off of our endless fears, while doing little to nothing to minimize the likelihood of another attack"
- - That's your opinion. Personally, I think we should be doing more, not less. So maybe the current administration is finding the middle ground. Did you want the 9/11 attacks to go unpunished?

"actually, the Bush administration is making it worse"
- - That's your opinion, and one you can't support with anything other than conjecture.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"Holy shit. I can't believe the things you type."

Gee, for a guy who was all roiled up over the leaking of the name of a mid-level functionary, you seem to be suddenly apathetic about classified information that might actually cause problems.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"Gee, for a guy who was all roiled up over the leaking of the name of a mid-level functionary, you seem to be suddenly apathetic about classified information that might actually cause problems. "

Huh?

I'm not sure how you got that. What I am amazed at is that, in two sentences, you suggested that what we did was the wrong thing to do and a bad precedent to set, and that the solution to that was not to correct the offending behaviour, but to punish the person who squealed and let out the secret. As was the case with the Plame discussion, if classified information was leaked to those who weren't supposed to have it, then I think that action should be punished. But to suggest that the solution to poor policy is to just keep it secret is pretty lame.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Point of fact (or Newsweek speculation) Robert Novak's source came clean to the grand jury and Fitzgerald therefore, did not indict him...seems obstruction is the operative crime he is pursuing.

Maybe this belongs in another post. Oh well.
Last edited by: Al P Duez: Nov 3, 05 19:16
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"actually, the Bush administration is making it worse"
- - That's your opinion, and one you can't support with anything other than conjecture."


To say the Bush administrations current policies are halting the spread of terrorism is pure conjecture as well.

- - Actually, what would cause the founding fathers to roll in their graves would be the idea of extending the rights of US Citizens to terrorists.


Could be. But the founding fathers were considered terrorists by the British Empire.And their gripes were pretty weak compared to some so-called terrorists' gripes now.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, that's a pretty far stretch. So you think we're just rounding up anyone we find? We're just classifying every Tom, Dick and Mohammad as a terrorist because we love having prisoners to interrogate?

You think everyone that the gov't rounds up as a "terrorist" is actually one?

You mean like when we had Bin Laden and let him go?

I guess we should have had Rumsfeld just slap the cuffs on Saddam, would've saved us all a lot of trouble in ensuing years.That's a Constitutional right for all American citizens, and only applies within the borders of our country (as we noticed when terrorists were beheading innocent civilians recently).


So anyone who isn't American doesn't matter?

Actually, it should.

Who made you judge jury executioner and god?

You seem to put a lot of faith in the abilities of the CIA and the fact that they won't make any mistakes in their determination of who is and who isn't a terrorist. It's also pretty sad that you seem to think basic rights (ie right to a trial or even to not be tortured) only applies to Americans. We'll make a lot of friends in the world with your attitude.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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"We'll make a lot of friends in the world with your attitude. "


Yep.

Some idiot will respond: Who cares?

I respond: Without a lot of friends, we have not a chance in hell of halting terrorism.

Which is why this stuff (CIA's secret facilities, rendering, not giving suspected terrorists any "rights") is just shooting us in the foot. We need more countries on board, not fewer.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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"That doesn't mean some CIA goon should be able to torture them without fear for retribution in some secret prison in Estonia, which was the gist of the bill McCain sponsored."
- - Actually, as long as we're talking about POWs, terrorists are not included in whatever protections might be codified.

And we have a rumor about secret prisons. You're jumping to the conclusion that random innocents are being tortured.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"I'm not sure how you got that. What I am amazed at is that, in two sentences, you suggested that what we did was the wrong thing to do and a bad precedent to set, and that the solution to that was not to correct the offending behaviour, but to punish the person who squealed and let out the secret."
- - The post to which you are responding doesn't say anything like that. All I said in that post was Gee, why are you suddenly not upset about CIA leakage when you wanted to hang Scooter from the yardarm for what cannot possibly be compared to this leak.

"As was the case with the Plame discussion, if classified information was leaked to those who weren't supposed to have it, then I think that action should be punished."
- - Thank you, I know that it hurts you to even partially agree with me.

"But to suggest that the solution to poor policy is to just keep it secret is pretty lame."
- - How do you know it's poor policy?


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [TB in MT] [ In reply to ]
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"To say the Bush administrations current policies are halting the spread of terrorism is pure conjecture as well."
- - I didn't say they were, although I support what they're doing.

- - Actually, what would cause the founding fathers to roll in their graves would be the idea of extending the rights of US Citizens to terrorists.
"Could be. But the founding fathers were considered terrorists by the British Empire.And their gripes were pretty weak compared to some so-called terrorists' gripes now."
- - Is there a point in there somewhere? Are you likening the terrorists to our founding fathers?


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]
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"You think everyone that the gov't rounds up as a 'terrorist' is actually one?"
- - I have no reason to doubt that they have legitimate suspicions to support what they're doing.

You mean like when we had Bin Laden and let him go?
"I guess we should have had Rumsfeld just slap the cuffs on Saddam, would've saved us all a lot of trouble in ensuing years."
- - Actually, I think Bush 41 was a nitwit for allowing Saddam to stay in power in 1991. And can you argue that it wouldn't have saved us a lot of trouble, and saved a lot of Iraqi lives?

"So anyone who isn't American doesn't matter?"
- - Wow, how did you stretch to that? What I said was that the protections of our Constitution do not apply to non-citizens. You can't legitimately complain about the violation of US Constitutional rights when it comes to foreigners, and especially terrorists.

"Who made you judge jury executioner and god?"
- - No one. I'm just informing you of the laws as they exist. You want to play judge by extending rights to those not entitled to have them. The rights appertaining to the US Consitution are for US Citizens. Why would you want those rights extended to those who would slit your throat in a New York minute?

"You seem to put a lot of faith in the abilities of the CIA and the fact that they won't make any mistakes in their determination of who is and who isn't a terrorist."
- - Nope. They're as fallible as the next guy, but they have their job to do and I can't think of a reason to interfere with it, especially in today's international climate.

"It's also pretty sad that you seem to think basic rights (ie right to a trial or even to not be tortured) only applies to Americans."
- - Well, the prisoners in those secret prisons, if they're from Arab nations, probably don't have those rights in their own countries, so why should they have them granted by those whom they would kill?

"We'll make a lot of friends in the world with your attitude."
- - Well, considering that we're talking about people who would detonate a nuclear device in Washington DC if they could, I'll not be losing a minutes sleep over the additional contempt they may feel towards us because we're trying to prevent them from doing so.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [TB in MT] [ In reply to ]
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"I respond: Without a lot of friends, we have not a chance in hell of halting terrorism."

Perhaps we should choose who we want as our friends. I believe there are a lot of Brits who would love to see the transit bombers found and punished, and a lot of people in a lot of other countries who have been victimized by terrorists just might not agree with you that we should show them such compassion.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Are you likening the terrorists to our founding fathers?


Depends on who you consider terrorists. Bali bombers, 911 hijackers, Chechens who blow up grade schools, Arabs 2,000 miles from home running around in Afghanistan, they are terrorists, and pretty different from our founding fathers ... But some of the quarter million so-called "insurgents" in Iraq honestly believe they are defending their lives and families. Same with some of the kids in Palestine, even. Nelson Mandela was once a terrorist, remember ... I might do the same if I were them, I don't know.

I'll be really ridiculous and say even Arabs 2,000 miles from home running around with machine guns in Afghanistan or Arabs 10,000 miles from home doing suspcious shit right here in the U.S. still have some rights. If our country can't set an example, who can?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [TB in MT] [ In reply to ]
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"But some of the quarter million so-called 'insurgents' in Iraq honestly believe they are defending their lives and families."
- - It would seem that very few of the "insurgents" are actually Iraqis.

"Same with some of the kids in Palestine, even. Nelson Mandela was once a terrorist, remember ... I might do the same if I were them, I don't know."
- - Do the same? By that do you mean blowing up restaurants and shopping malls? Sending children into grocery stores to blow themselves to pieces? Somehow I don't think you would.

"I'll be really ridiculous and say even Arabs 2,000 miles from home running around with machine guns in Afghanistan or Arabs 10,000 miles from home doing suspcious shit right here in the U.S. still have some rights."
- - I don't see why they should. I don't see them respecting our rights. We didn't attack them; they attacked us.

If our country can't set an example, who can?"
- - Example of what? How to let terrorists f*** with you? I think I'd rather demonstrate how well we can survive, despite the sub-human scum that would kill us. I agreed with President Bush when he said he didn't plan to wait until the mushroom cloud appears to herald the success of the terrorists. But sometimes I think that's what it's going to take to wake up most of America.

These people aren't playing.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"The post to which you are responding doesn't say anything like that"

You dodge better than anyone. No, the post to which I replied this time did not say that, the previous post did. You said that we shouldn't be setting this precedent, therefore whoever told on us should be punished. That's what I replied to.



"All I said in that post was Gee, why are you suddenly not upset about CIA leakage when you wanted to hang Scooter from the yardarm for what cannot possibly be compared to this leak. "

Yes, and I pointed out that what you said, as usual, was not based on anything.



"How do you know it's poor policy? "

Because you said so. You said it was a bad precedent to set. Really, you should try to keep up with the discussion.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Slowman, Could you add a Cousin Elwood filter?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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That's an interesting position to claim, in this context. I guess torture is morally good and right?

I have said on numerous occasions that I do not condone torture so please don't try and trip me up here. I have also said that what may be considered torture by some may not be viewed as such by others.

Why? Seriously.


I hate to use him as a source but elwood actually answered how I feel in another post. "When the soviets did it, they were arresting their own citizens. When we do it, we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I hate to use him as a source but elwood actually answered how I feel in another post. "When the soviets did it, they were arresting their own citizens. When we do it, we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings."


Bob, you keep avoiding one of the main points: How do we know we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings? Faith is one thing, but blind faith is another.

Isn't Padilla a US citizen?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Armytriguy,

To be quite frank, I am more than happy for the CIA or the army to do whatever they need to do to win this war against terror. Electrocute therapy to their their nuts if necessary. At least they won't get their bodyparts chopped off or their heads lobbed off, if their own kind happen to feel they were undesirable for some reason.

Tell me If I don't make sense, but it's really ironical how folks here are so willing to make waves and so much adamant noise about them poor Muslim terrorists and suspected terrorists and terrorist supporters not getting their justice and fair play treatment at the hands of the people who are trying to protect us. About how bringing the offence to terrorism is just so wrong one way or another. I really haven't seen a lot of adamance about all the victims of terrorism at all and that's a fact a cursory glance through these post topics will show. The word ingrate comes to mind.

I'm glad the seven British soldiers who were charged with killing some Iraqi were found not guilty. Imagine going over there, putting your ass on the line in those conditions, then being charged and convicted of murder. The USA and the UK and the UN are trying to be the good guys to help Iraq get on it's feet. Now it's become the battleground between the forces of democracy and those that vie for a religious fanatic backward institution that is a threat to others. All we need is for Iraq to become another Iran. That is exactly what those insurgence now bombing their own brother Muslims almost daily want.

Thanks for your this thread and bringing up this current topic to discuss.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Bob, you keep avoiding one of the main points: How do we know we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings? Faith is one thing, but blind faith is another.

Isn't Padilla a US citizen?

Ken we don't know if they would like to fly airplanes into buildings. Thats what an interrogation is for. What I do know is many, if not most, of these detainees were captured on the battlefield trying to kill US servicemen. Other prisoners have been captured or detained as the result of intelligence indicating they are a suspect. As I continue to say torture is NOT what should be happening. Having said that, there is going to be a difference of opinion on what exactly constitutes torture. For some people depriving the prisoners of sleep or playing loud music is torture.



Let me ask you this. If there should be some oversight or as you said "who watches the watchers" then who should that be? A US agency? An international body?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [elund] [ In reply to ]
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"Hey Slowman, Could you add a Cousin Elwood filter?"

If you don't like my thread, you're welcome to go bother someone else.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"Tell me If I don't make sense,"

That's too easy.

The reason you don't hear wailing and tears for the victims of terrorism on here is because it's understood that the terrorists do bad things, that we all feel sorry for their victims, and that we want terrorism to stop and terrorists to be brought to justice. It is possible for people to dislike terrorists and terrorism, but still want for them to be captured, prosecuted, and punished in accordance with the law. It's not a matter of sympathizing with the terrorists, but of wanting to preserve the system they are trying to tear down.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"You dodge better than anyone. No, the post to which I replied this time did not say that, the previous post did."
- - Me dodging? I'm responding to a post that made no sense. Non sequitor. How is that dodging.

"You said that we shouldn't be setting this precedent, therefore whoever told on us should be punished. That's what I replied to."
- - I'm saying that if we have secret prisons, that's the sort of thing that should be investigated behind closed doors, not in the international media. Do you disagree?

CE: "All I said in that post was Gee, why are you suddenly not upset about CIA leakage when you wanted to hang Scooter from the yardarm for what cannot possibly be compared to this leak. "
SG: "Yes, and I pointed out that what you said, as usual, was not based on anything."
- - It's based on my opinion. Isn't that what you're profering? Your opinion. I mean I know you like to slip in something about how you used to deal with classified info, so you're an expert, but get real. You're just a name on a post on some Internet forum. No one hired you to be the legal authority.

"Really, you should try to keep up with the discussion."
- - This from an guy who doesn't even know what post he's responding to?


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"Me dodging? I'm responding to a post that made no sense. Non sequitor. How is that dodging"

Ok, since you're having trouble fending off all the attacks, I'll refresh your memory. Your post said this:

Posert: "So with that in mind, are secret prisons and prsioner abuse scandals really the kinds of global precedents we want to be setting forth for other countries with less refined moral distinctions?"
You: "No, which is why the person who leaked this should be in serious trouble."

I'm telling you that that is a piss poor position to take. Let's say a parent does drugs. He doesn't want his kids to do drugs by following his example. Is the solution to just lie to his kids, or to stop doing the drugs? The answer's pretty obvious.



"CE: "All I said in that post was Gee, why are you suddenly not upset about CIA leakage when you wanted to hang Scooter from the yardarm for what cannot possibly be compared to this leak. "
SG: "Yes, and I pointed out that what you said, as usual, was not based on anything."
- - It's based on my opinion. Isn't that what you're profering? Your opinion. I mean I know you like to slip in something about how you used to deal with classified info, so you're an expert, but get real. You're just a name on a post on some Internet forum. No one hired you to be the legal authority."


What are you talking about? I never claimed to be a legal authority. And what does it have to do with your completely bullshit claim that I want to "hang Scooter from the yardarm?"



"This from an guy who doesn't even know what post he's responding to?"

The fact that you can't follow the posts back is your problem, not mine. I assume that since you spew so much crap, you have a hard time keeping track of which poster is refuting which bullshit claim you made last.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Posert: "So with that in mind, are secret prisons and prsioner abuse scandals really the kinds of global precedents we want to be setting forth for other countries with less refined moral distinctions?"
You: "No, which is why the person who leaked this should be in serious trouble."
- - And what you're missing here is that no one (at this time and certainly none of us) knows whether these prisons actually exist and it is certainly speculation to say that any abuses are happening there. So playing this in the media before the facts are known is just plain wrong.

"I'm telling you that that is a piss poor position to take. Let's say a parent does drugs. He doesn't want his kids to do drugs by following his example. Is the solution to just lie to his kids, or to stop doing the drugs? The answer's pretty obvious."
- - Yes it is. How it connect to the issue is impossible for me to see, unless you're ass-u-ming that all sorts of nasty and illegal things are happening, which is a long way from what we have. What we have is an unsubstantiated rumor that there are secret prisons. Let's not get the cart hooked up in front of the horse here.

"I never claimed to be a legal authority. And what does it have to do with your completely bullshit claim that I want to "hang Scooter from the yardarm?"
- - Actually, you HAVE claimed to be an authority, as someone who handled classified information. Until you descended to calling me a liar, I was giving you propers for that. So do you want to hang Scooter or not? Let's quit dancing and just put your opinion out there, because you seem to want to have it both ways.

"The fact that you can't follow the posts back is your problem, not mine."
- - I've made dozens of posts on this thread. I don't claim to be psychic, and since what you're saying makes little sense to me, figuring out which of my statements you're attempting to counter is difficult. Try to reference your responses, it's a minimal courtesy. Besides, others are reading these posts and it just makes you sound like a hack when you berate me without linking the response.

"I assume that since you spew so much crap, you have a hard time keeping track of which poster is refuting which bullshit claim you made last."
- - Make that attempting - weakly attempting - to refute claims that he seems to think are incorrect and yet can't stay on point long enough to demonstrate any problem.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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the existence of the secret prisons was NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION...to be classified they had to be legal....they were and are ILLEGAL.

Whoever set them up was breaking the law, whoever operated them was breaking the law, whoever blew the whistle was doing his/her country a service.

We cannot let rogue CIA operatives bypass the rule of law and bypass the will of Congress. Congress did not approve these prisons, Congress did not approve an appropriation for these prisons, whoever decided to mislead Congress about a budget line item and spend money intended for say body armor on secret prisons instead belongs in a prison himself.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I hate to use him as a source but elwood

Heh heh. And here I've been able to skip over everything he's said so far. Dang.

"When the soviets did it, they were arresting their own citizens. When we do it, we're arresting people who would like to fly more airplanes into US office buildings."

Assuming that there aren't any of our own citizens in these secret prisons, I guess, or won't be. But more importantly, I don't see the big moral distinction between secretly imprisoning one's own citizens and the citizens of another nation. It isn't as if the Soviet Union didn't claim that everyone they sent to the Gulag was a threat to their nation. Maybe you can explain the difference to me. So far, it seems to boil down to the fact that the Soviets were bad, and the people they sent to the Gulag were good, while we're good, and the people we send to the Gulag are bad. I don't find that a very compelling argument, frankly.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"The reason you don't hear wailing and tears for the victims of terrorism on here is because it's understood that the terrorists do bad things, that we all feel sorry for their victims, and that we want terrorism to stop and terrorists to be brought to justice."

UNDERSTOOD!!! How easily the word flows. If you had a loved one gone forever, due the senseless act of some of these mother f...ers, something tells me it wouldn't be so easily understood by you anymore. Somehow your kind of understood and trying to understand the rights of these assholes borders on dangerous apathy and a twisted sense of democractic principles.

You want to apply the letter of the law to these guys? Excuse me, Mr Abdul Fundamentalist Isam Bin Terrorist, "Excuse me before you plant some bombs in the most crowded civillian everyday place you can think of, can we please discuss the principles of law?"

As armytriguy quite rightly pointed out. Our guys really didn't capture these guys radomly off the street. They are either from the battlefield or from intelligence information. And interogation not polite conversation has to be one of our strongest assetts in preventing more 9/11 replicas. And I'll tell you upfront, if I had to make a hard choice of being a prisoner in Guantana Bay or a captive of some Islamic cell or prisoner in Iran ... please let me go to Guantana Bay Holiday Resort!!!
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"the existence of the secret prisons was NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION...to be classified they had to be legal....they were and are ILLEGAL. "

Osama bin Laden and Abdullah bin Terrorists and all their brothers would have to be happier than Muslim pigs in shit, knowing the West's main concern about countering them is how to remain absolutely legal. Way to go!
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"UNDERSTOOD!!! How easily the word flows. If you had a loved one gone forever, due the senseless act of some of these mother f...ers, something tells me it wouldn't be so easily understood by you anymore. Somehow your kind of understood and trying to understand the rights of these assholes borders on dangerous apathy and a twisted sense of democractic principles. "

What are you rambling about now? This paragraph didn't even make sense. Nobody is lessening the horror of what terrorists have done or are doing. However, just like criminals in America have certain rights regardless of the heinous nature of their crimes, there are certain rights enjoyed by foreign citizens and certain laws in other countries that we have to observe. I'm not advocating giving them more rights than they are entitled to and I'm not advocating trying to treat terrorists with the full set of rights they would enjoy as an American Citizen. I do however think that we can't very well say, with a straight face, how noble our aims are if we're bending and breaking laws around the world in order to get the result we want. One of the cornerstone principles of democratic society is that the process matters. The way we go about doing our business is just as important as the end result. If we circumvent the process in order to get results, we lose legitimacy, moral high ground, whatever you want to call it.

"You want to apply the letter of the law to these guys? "

Yes.

"Excuse me, Mr Abdul Fundamentalist Isam Bin Terrorist, "Excuse me before you plant some bombs in the most crowded civillian everyday place you can think of, can we please discuss the principles of law?" "

Stupid exaggeration and illustrative of how loony you are.

"As armytriguy quite rightly pointed out. Our guys really didn't capture these guys radomly off the street. They are either from the battlefield or from intelligence information."

I know very well how most of these guys are captured. Probably better than you do. However, even if we catch them in the act of planting a bomb in a pre-school, there are going to be certain laws governing how they are treated after we capture them, how long we can hold them, how where we can hold them, what we can do to them on foreign soil, etc.

"And I'll tell you upfront, if I had to make a hard choice of being a prisoner in Guantana Bay or a captive of some Islamic cell or prisoner in Iran ... please let me go to Guantana Bay Holiday Resort!!! "

And I'll tell you upfront that you can enjoy your stay in Guantana, because our detainment center is in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. If you want to be taken seriously when you talk about these things, you should make sure you get your names straight.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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UNDERSTOOD!!! How easily the word flows. If you had a loved one gone forever, due the senseless act of some of these mother f...ers, something tells me it wouldn't be so easily understood by you anymore. Somehow your kind of understood and trying to understand the rights of these assholes borders on dangerous apathy and a twisted sense of democractic principles.
---------------------------------------------

I lost many close friends in the WTC and I am much more in agreement with slowguy than you and armytriguy.

I want the terrorists brought to justice, but I also want there to be an end to the "War on Terror" (I hate that term) within my lifetime, and I want the principles that govern our countries to still be intact at the end of it.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that Guantanamo Bay is a holiday resort so don't be stupid.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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Great. They only problem is that torture is a lousy way to get legit information as people will say whatever you want to make it stop. If you are advocating such treatment irrespective of any information gathering purposes, then you are no different than the terrorists dismembering people.

You further fail to grasp that America is founded on a higher moral authority. Such activities(torture, secret prisons, etc.) do not comport with a higher moral authority. Quite frankly, I'd rather live under the constant specter of major terrorist attacks if it means maintaining the American tradition of higher morality than I would eliminating all terrorist threats if it meant ceding our moral standing.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
- - It would seem that very few of the "insurgents" are actually Iraqis.
It would seem you are wrong on this as well. There is a higher percentage of foreign jihadists for suicide bombers, but unless something as changed drastically, the majority of the insurgency is home grown.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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1) "What are you rambling about now?"

Funny I was about to ask you the same.

2) "This paragraph didn't even make sense."

To me all your paragraphs don't make sense. Your sentiments make no sense.

3) "Stupid exaggeration and illustrative of how loony you are."

Urmm .... Mr Slowguy, methinks it was an obvious intentional exageration. But as they say, "A lot of truth is sauid in jest."

Well to be honest I'm not going to call you loony tunes back because I don't think you are. But from your posts ... naively adamant, unpragmatic and easily aroused comes to mind ... for example to the extent of calling me loony in your state of excitement over a statement that was obviously not meant to be literal. Seems to be a reuccuring kind of thing with you.

4) "And I'll tell you upfront that you can enjoy your stay in Guantana, because our detainment center is in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. If you want to be taken seriously when you talk about these things, you should make sure you get your names straight."

Whoa there! Are my eyes decieving me? Are you really attacking my reference to a Guantana Bay Holiday Resort because there isn't really such a place? I'm not even going to attempt to explain that one to you if you can't figure it out for yourself where and why I came up with that one. Maybe you can correct my typo then check with your holiday agent. Poor naive really slow slowguy. -:)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [davet] [ In reply to ]
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"And I don't think anyone is suggesting that Guantanamo Bay is a holiday resort so don't be stupid."

Well Guantanamo Bay detention as compared to being captured by one of them Muslim terror cells, insurgence or being in an Iranian prison if you happen to be a US soldier will very likely be like a holiday resort. So don't you be stupid.

The terror threat in it's depth and form, is very different. Sticking strictly to rigid principles will likely not get the job done. Principle guidelines need to be in place but for sure they'll have to be more flexible, now more than ever..
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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1) "They only problem is that torture is a lousy way to get legit information as people will say whatever you want to make it stop."

Well yes and no. I'm no expert on torture interrogation, but I would think that it should be pretty effective especially on individuals who don't understand any other kind of language. And our people receiving the info obviously would have a pretty good idea on the accuracy of the information which I'm sure they would process and check.

If an individual was likely to have the kind of info that will lead to the effective battle against terrorists or information that will lead to preventing attacks, then I think we can go beyond just tickling their pinkies to get some answers.

2) "Quite frankly, I'd rather live under the constant specter of major terrorist attacks if it means maintaining the American tradition of higher morality than I would eliminating all terrorist threats if it meant ceding our moral standing. "

Problem is the terrorist threats are becoming more and more prevalent. And how about if Iran has nucleur capability? They don't even have to use it themselves, just past it along to someone like Osama.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"To me all your paragraphs don't make sense. Your sentiments make no sense"

I'd settle for your sentences making grammatical sense so I could figure out what you mean.

"Are you really attacking my reference to a Guantana Bay Holiday Resort because there isn't really such a place?"

No, I'm attacking your inability to sound rational, and to talk about the subject at hand. We're talking about detainment centers, not holiday resorts. You can talk about anything you want, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Last edited by: slowguy: Nov 5, 05 11:27
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"the existence of the secret prisons was NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION...to be classified they had to be legal....they were and are ILLEGAL. "

Osama bin Laden and Abdullah bin Terrorists and all their brothers would have to be happier than Muslim pigs in shit, knowing the West's main concern about countering them is how to remain absolutely legal. Way to go!
Thats what makes us better than them you idiot....laws, civilization, and morality. Toss them out the window and we are no better than them...brutes and murderers killing people in the name of our particular brand of god.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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1) "I'd settle for your sentences making grammatical sense so I could figure out what you mean."

You know Dude, for a person who makes a lot of grammatical mistakes, spelling errors and typos you are sure making a big deal out of this. When I came across all your mistakes I figured since English is not my mother tongue and I am hardly perfect myself and this forum is not an English exam participation, I figured what the hell. The main thing is I know what the sloguy is trying to say. Unlike you. For someone who can't figiure out what I mean you sure can respond very timely and consistently.

Isn't there a saying, "Actions speak louder than words"?

2) "No, I'm attacking your inability to sound rational, and to talk about the subject at hand. We're talking about detainment centers, not holiday resorts. You can talk about anything you want, but don't expect to be taken seriously. "

Well as I pointed out ...crystal ... for your benefit already, the term 'holiday resort' was used in sarcasm and as a relative comparison to the alternative. It really doesn't merit so much discussion. Rather than harp on about the term used I really haven't seen any answer to crux of the point brought up. Which is a comparison of being a detainee at Guantanamo Bay Vs being a captive of an Islamic Militant organization or nation. The comparison is relative to the level of human rights decency on either side. A consideration of the two may just put some light on to the keen idiocincracy of criticising our own.

About taking me seriously ...I've said it here, I've said it before to you and I'm saying it again now, "If you don't want to take me seriously, because as you claim you can't due to my ridculousness (not exactly your first time mentioning it), then just don't respond. That will speak volumes rather than going on like a broken down gramaphone record.
Last edited by: kangaroo: Nov 6, 05 2:18
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"Thats what makes us better than them you idiot....laws, civilization, and morality. Toss them out the window and we are no better than them...brutes and murderers killing people in the name of our particular brand of god. "

....which is all good and well if innocent people going about their lives around the world didn't have to be killed by them and the threat isn't increasing even to the real possibility of nucleur ...you bigger idiot!

To Slowtwitchers in general not just to you, you bigger *&^%#@ idiot SF ...

Consider the mentality of these people and what they have done and what they are willing to do.

(a) What they have done is now just so numerous. Let's just consider this one example... they even attacked and captured a pre-school in Russia not too long and killed several pre-school kids, tortured them by not allowing water so the kids had to drink their own urine etc They would have been happy to kill a lot more or the little kids had the troops not stopped them. It really goes to show what kind of mentallities we're dealing with here.

(b) Consider the widespreadness of terrorists attacks. There are no geographical boundaries, no single organization perpetuating or strict definition as to the type of victims they target ...except the more vulnerable the better ie civillians in everyday life and even the pre-school mentioned above. The only common thread is that these perpetrators originate from Islam. That's the complexity and the depth of the threat.

Hey.... latest just one example of widespread expanding nature of terrorism. I'm sure most have heard about the Earthquake tragedy that's happened in India and Pakistan. The problem is getting aid to those remote areas in the mountains (Osama Country) which have been flattened. Time is crucial because of the onset of winter. Never mind that Western agencies are busting their asses to save their Muslim butts. But now we've got the religious leaders telling their gullible followers, laid even more succeceptible emotionally by their loss, that the earthquake is a punishment from Allah as a direct result of Pakistan becoming too Westernized in collabarating with westerners. All them Pakistani devouts who go and pray at least 5 times a day hanging on every word utterred and proclaimed by these leaders. Such are the ways of the Islamic religious teachings and such is the way this scourge can just keep growing. It happens all over, just fact plain and simple.

The biggest terrorists are the religious leaders. Eg Abu Bashar ...Bali Bombing.

(c) Keeping the above two in mind, ie the mentality and it's widespread nature. How does that fair for the future threat from such scumbags. If they gain the upper hand in any way or increase their capacity to attack it will be just so much more bad ...bad ...news. Too late to feel that it's futile and meaningless tragedy kind of news.

So considering these above three facts (please refute with logic if you can), do we really want to be that concerned about applying our principles of civil and human rights. Or should we just focus on iradicating them wherever they are and in particular minimising the risk of attacks from them, especially - nucleur threat at all costs. Do you think that maybe on some practical level a little bending of our principles may just be applying some very much needed pragmatism?

Well I don't entirely disagree with the viewpoint of the importance of keeping our principles and decency in order to differentiate ourselves from the bad guys. But this time, with this threat, "Alls fair in Love and War" may just be taking on a different meaning.
Last edited by: kangaroo: Nov 6, 05 3:24
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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In response to: "the existence of the secret prisons was NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION...to be classified they had to be legal....they were and are ILLEGAL."

First off, they are not illegal under US laws. If you think so, please cite the law.

Second, the material was and is classified. As noted today on the editorial page, author Priest is noted saying: Priest said none of her sources could have talked on the record for fear of losing their jobs, because much of the information is classified.

There is nothing in Priest's story to say that these were rouge rather than authorized operations, and Congress funds all sorts of black ops things without having a clue what it is funding.

Not one of your better posts, Matt. Congrats on the new job by the way.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"You know Dude, for a person who makes a lot of grammatical mistakes, spelling errors and typos you are sure making a big deal out of this. "

Actually I didn't make a big deal out of anything. I simply mentioned that I couldn't tell what the hell you were trying to say.

"Which is a comparison of being a detainee at Guantanamo Bay Vs being a captive of an Islamic Militant organization or nation. The comparison is relative to the level of human rights decency on either side. A consideration of the two may just put some light on to the keen idiocincracy of criticising our own. "

I am perfectly aware of the difference between the two. Have you been to Gitmo? I'd assume not. Do you personally know any people who have worked at Gitmo as interviewers? I'd guess not. You can compare all you want, but the fact that they do bad things to their captives doesn't make it ok for us to do bad things. That's like having your kid say that it's ok to shoplift because he saw a friend do it. Or like one gang member saying it's ok to commit drive by shootings in the street because his rivals do worse. In short, I don't know what your comparison between Guantanamo Bay and any extremist camp is supposed to justify. Would you have found it acceptable during WWII if someone justified our internment of Japanese Americans by saying, "Well look at the concentration camps and at how the Japanese treat their prisoners of war."

"If you don't want to take me seriously"

I'd like to take you seriously, but you make it fairly difficult when the two positions you have taken recently are:

- All devout Muslims can't think straight and support terrorism and most Westernized ones do to and they lurk on triathlon forums trying to spread their message.

and

- It's ok for us to torture people and hold them illegally because, hey, they are bad guys and they do bad things too.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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1) "Actually I didn't make a big deal out of anything. I simply mentioned that I couldn't tell what the hell you were trying to say."

Well to me if someone keeps repeating the same thing that's a relatively big deal in a simple discussion such as this. And again I repeat, (because it really seems that you can't tell what the hell I'm saying when it suits you), "For someone who really can't tell you sure find a lot of ways to respond." Can you tell now what I'm saying right here???

2) "I am perfectly aware of the difference between the two."

Jeez then you shouldn't have gone on about the holiday resort literal thing like the way you did for two long posts and instead addressed what was really being said.

3) "Do you personally know any people who have worked at Gitmo as interviewers? I'd guess not."

I'm not saying that you're stupid, but that is a stupid thing to say. Obviously even if you or I happened to know such an interviewer they wouldn't be telling us all the gory clasified sensitive details just so we could blab it on a public forum, now would they? Ridiculous as I have made it sound, this time you can take it literally. And you accused me of being ridiculous. -:)

4) "You can compare all you want, but the fact that they do bad things to their captives doesn't make it ok for us to do bad things."

Of course I can. It's helluva lot more relevant comparing being captive of both sides to see what kind of attitudes and mentalities each side has than what you've got to compare here ...

"That's like having your kid say that it's ok to shoplift because he saw a friend do it. Or like one gang member saying it's ok to commit drive by shootings in the street because his rivals do worse."

Interrogation of terror suspects has a huge purpose. Why are you saying that street crime is OK if interrogation is needed in fighting terrorism. And you say I don't make sense?

5) In short, I don't know what your comparison between Guantanamo Bay and any extremist camp is supposed to justify.

In shorter if you don't get it you never will. So don't bother yourself and I won't try to explain it again.

6) Would you have found it acceptable during WWII if someone justified our internment of Japanese Americans by saying, "Well look at the concentration camps and at how the Japanese treat their prisoners of war."

Well as far as I know Japanese American citizens were never a threat and never did anything to show that they were. They didn't plant and activate bombs crowdwe parts of the community. The American public got a bit over zealous out of fear, not excusably but understandably after Pearl Harbour.

In stark contrast Muslims are very unlike those Japanese citizens of WWII times. The Islam bad mentality can creep in and potentially create active terrorists from within Muslim communities. Am I exagerating? Why not ask the victims of the London bombings which was just one of the several targets that have been hit around the world by local Muslims recruited to perform terrorist attacks on their own country and their fellow citizens.

Hey slowguy are you following? Can you tell what I'm saying to you right now, or is my bad grammar and spelling getting in the way again?

7) "I'd like to take you seriously, but you make it fairly difficult when the two positions you have taken recently are:"

Again I say you are in fact taking me seriously, hence your timely multiple responses. Remember, "Actions speak louder than words"? It's just that you don't want to admit it (self denial) and / or you feel the need to use this cannot take me seriously as a sidebar tactic to make me lose credibility. But frankly if you had the credibility yourself of solid content in your points you wouldn't need to use such tactics and instead keep more to the debated issues at hand.

8) "- All devout Muslims can't think straight and support terrorism and most Westernized ones do to"

Absolutely from my personal experience and observation I can swear that I believe this to be true. In the devout global Muslim brotherhood the sentiments of individuals borders on empathy to the sentiments of the outright terror perpetuators. All those killings of civillians around the world ...when have you seen a rally or public outcry by bonafide Muslims denouncing Islam based terror? Never! and you never will.

Disagree? Can you give a better reason than mine why this is so??? Can you understand what I'm asking you here? It really shouldn't be that difficult because I've kept it simple hence minimizing potential grammar and spelling errors.

By the way, not that it's important, minor compared to some of your previous, but your, "most Westernized ones do to" should be 'too' with 2 o's.

9) "and they lurk on triathlon forums trying to spread their message. "

What I did say was that an open public forum is open to everyone including Islamic terrorist sympathisers. And I did say that I knew for a fact that in other forums I have known of such individuals participating representing their brand of sentiments. As such ST is no less vulnerable to individuals with such mentalities participating. There is no exclusion to such individuals logging on and joining. Is it really that senseless to you? If so why?

Expanding and exagerating on what another says just to win your own way and justify your accusations of another being ridiculous is a little below the belt. But more significantly it's again side stepping the need to make real concrete arguments.

Ditto your 10) statement below -

10) "- It's ok for us to torture people and hold them illegally because, hey, they are bad guys and they do bad things too."

When did I ever-EVER say that it's so OK to torture as if it was good to do so? That's what you're implying from the tone of this sentence isn't it? If harsh interrogation tecniques are needed it's not so much as OK but likely be a necessary evil to protect us and our own from a really bad unrelenting threat. One that I took lengths to define in my previous post before this one.

Instead of putting what I have to say out of perspective with exageration, why don't you just spit it out ie the solid points to back up your opinion?

Well since after all these posts, that's still absent, let me spell this particular threads argument against mine out for you. As MattinSF said: it's important to stick to our principles and our legal constraints. This ensures the primary importance, that the line which separates us from them is not crossed.

Is that what you wanted to say? Or is there something else?

Hopefully you're not going to attack my grammar or exagerate and put out of perspective what I have said. Other than that I'm all ears. Really would like to see if you have anything of substance to say.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"Interrogation of terror suspects has a huge purpose."

Of course it does.

"Why are you saying that street crime is OK if interrogation is needed in fighting terrorism. And you say I don't make sense? "

Huh? I know English isn't your primary language, but that isn't even close to what I said.

"In stark contrast Muslims are very unlike those Japanese citizens of WWII times"

Again with the gross generalizations. Earth to Kangaroo....Not all Muslims are the same.

"Why not ask the victims of the London bombings"

Why not ask them about the IRA too? Does that give you justification to paint all Catholics as potential terrorists or terrorist sympathizers? Of course not.

"Can you tell what I'm saying to you right now, or is my bad grammar and spelling getting in the way again? "

No, I'm understanding what you said this time,...it's just wrong.

"Absolutely from my personal experience and observation I can swear that I believe this to be true."

Then your experience has been extremely limited or you are a simple bigot. You take your pick.

"when have you seen a rally or public outcry by bonafide Muslims denouncing Islam based terror? Never! and you never will. "

First, Muslim clerics have spoken out about extremism on many occasions. Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean by "bona fide Muslims.

"By the way, not that it's important, minor compared to some of your previous, but your, "most Westernized ones do to" should be 'too' with 2 o's."

I never said anything about your spelling, but if that's all you've got, that's ok I guess.

"When did I ever-EVER say that it's so OK to torture as if it was good to do so? That's what you're implying from the tone of this sentence isn't it? If harsh interrogation tecniques are needed it's not so much as OK but likely be a necessary evil to protect us and our own from a really bad unrelenting threat. One that I took lengths to define in my previous post before this one. "

You have claimed that we should do whatever we need to and not bother with determining legality and ethics because the opponent is particularly bad. You actually mocked people who suggested we should try to stick to legal means for interrogations and for handling detainees. You made absolutely no mention of it just being a "necessary evil." If you are now going to claim that's not your position, then you are either lying now, or you were lying before. If you think pointing out the heinous things terrorists have done is going to justify us doing heinous things in return, you are ethically and morally bankrupt.

"Obviously even if you or I happened to know such an interviewer they wouldn't be telling us all the gory clasified sensitive details just so we could blab it on a public forum"

They would not want us to divulge classified info on the forum, that is correct. However, the next time you want to refer to Guantanamo as Guantana in some nonsensical rant about holiday resorts and terrorist camps that does nothing to advance the discussion, and then call me naive, you might want to check who you're talking to and what their experience level is.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Last edited by: slowguy: Nov 6, 05 9:26
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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1) "Huh? I know English isn't your primary language, but that isn't even close to what I said."

Really? So that whole paragraph on street crime slotted in as a direct comparison to interrogation of terrorists. ...what was that for ???? Am I that dumb for not being able to figure what you're trying to say because I thought it was pretty clear or are you even dumber for saying something then not knowing waht you said yourself or are you just trying to be a tricky slowguy?

2) "Again with the gross generalizations. Earth to Kangaroo....Not all Muslims are the same."

I've mentioned many times already that devout Muslims all share the same empathy in varying degrees and have cited the global widespread terrorism, recruitment of terrorists from different Muslim communities all over even to do in their own countries and fellow citizens (egLondon Bombings), the teachings of the Islamic leaders which propogate the same mentality globally and even quotes from prominent educated Arab Muslims themselves unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel and confirming this widespread Islamic mentality unsuited for the modern age and intergration to be the primary problem.

Kangaroo to sloguy on earth ... Can you finally get that. Please explain why you disagree, but don't pretend I never explained it......over!

4) "Why not ask them about the IRA too? Does that give you justification to paint all Catholics as potential terrorists or terrorist sympathizers? Of course not."

Of course not because it wasn't a global problem neither was it a Catholic wide mentality problem. Unlike the present Islamic based terrorism it was pretty much geographically contained in it's source and pretty much identifiable to it's limited character and background profile of likely individuals.

Kangaroo to sloguy on earth did you get that simple explaination ...over!

5) "No, I'm understanding what you said this time,..."

Hooray at last!

6) ",...it's just wrong. "

Why?

7) "Then your experience has been extremely limited or you are a simple bigot. You take your pick."

You wouldn't have the foggiest on the extent of my experience and observation so you're not qualified to say. I judge people based on their action not the colour of their skin or how they look. I take my pick .......you're just plain naive. Like an Ostrich who hides his head in a hole with his big ass sticking up exposed in the air.

Thank goodness our leaders don't have your Ostrich syndrome or we'll all get our arses blown off.

8) "First, Muslim clerics have spoken out about extremism on many occasions."

Really??? Which clerics, when ...examples please?

By the way you didn't answer my question about the rallying against terrorists did you?

9) Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean by "bona fide Muslims.

Too bad I've used that term and already explained it to the point before...more than once.

10) "I never said anything about your spelling, but if that's all you've got, that's ok I guess."

Something I picked up from you and gave back to you. It's called uinconsequential nit picking.

11) "you are either lying now, or you were lying before / you are ethically and morally bankrupt.

ouch! and you sound like someone on a self appointed mission from a soap box. I could go and type out answers to all the details of your accusations but it would just be so much more repetition.

12) " However, the next time you want to refer to Guantanamo as Guantana in some nonsensical rant about holiday resorts and terrorist camps that does nothing to advance the discussion, and then call me naive, you might want to check who you're talking to and what their experience level is."

Looks like that typo is going to haunt me for life. By the way do you know the meaning of metaphor? I know you use it quite a bit but do you know what sarcasm is? I mean like holiday resort doesn't literally mean HOLIDAY RESORT. Silly me and I thought we already cleared that up, but here you are again ...

13) "then call me naive, you might want to check who you're talking to and what their experience level is."

Ooooh, okay who am I talking to???? And what is your experience level ?????

So far all I have is someone that has a lot in the way of stubborn naive opinion, but lacking in hard content and substance. Someone who debates by sidetracking taking a lot of trouble to ridicule by making mock side tracks. Someone who repeats and revisits the same insults a lot with no new meaningful content .Someone who get's a little too emotional for what should be a debate on topic but ends up slinging a little name calling and insulting.

So who are you??? Are you a bigger VIP than the US President? Because even he is not above getting criticised..... Do tell.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"Am I that dumb for not being able to figure what you're trying to say"

Apparently. I never said street crime was ok. What I said was that you can't justify your own bad acts by pointing to the bad acts of others. Maybe the examples were too complicated for you.

"I've mentioned many times already that devout Muslims all share the same empathy in varying degrees and have cited the global widespread terrorism, recruitment of terrorists from different Muslim communities all over even to do in their own countries and fellow citizens (egLondon Bombings), the teachings of the Islamic leaders which propogate the same mentality globally and even quotes from prominent educated Arab Muslims themselves unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel and confirming this widespread Islamic mentality unsuited for the modern age and intergration to be the primary problem.

Kangaroo to sloguy on earth ... Can you finally get that. Please explain why you disagree, but don't pretend I never explained it......over! "

You can explain your closed minded bigoted views as many times as you want. It doesn't make them accurate. If you had said "many devout Muslims" or "some devout Muslims" you might have an argument. But as soon as you say "all devout Muslims" you have strayed into territory that is simply inaccurate. There are plenty of "devout Muslims" that don't condone or sympathize with terrorists. Here is just one of a few links about Islamic leaders who have denounced terrorism:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4775588

"You wouldn't have the foggiest on the extent of my experience and observation so you're not qualified to say"

I can make an educated guess that if you've never come across a devout Muslim that isn't also a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer, then your experience has been limited.

"I judge people based on their action not the colour of their skin or how they look"

No, you judge people based on the religion they belong to.

"Looks like that typo is going to haunt me for life."

So now it was a typo and I'm not naive for not knowing what you were talking about? Give me a break. You make shit up as you go along.

"So far all I have is someone that has a lot in the way of stubborn naive opinion, but lacking in hard content and substance. Someone who debates by sidetracking taking a lot of trouble to ridicule by making mock side tracks. Someone who repeats and revisits the same insults a lot with no new meaningful content .Someone who get's a little too emotional for what should be a debate on topic but ends up slinging a little name calling and insulting. "

It's difficult to bring serious points to a debate based solely on religious bigotry. My opinion isn't naive, yours is simply wrong. I have experience with Muslims of varying nations, levels of devoutness, backgrounds, etc. I have been to the Middle East. I have studied with Mulsim military officers. I have a Master's Degree in National Security and I've been a member of the U.S. Military for quite a while. I'm not naive, I'm simply more open minded and have a better grip on my fear than you do. The reason there is nothing concrete in response to your argument is that your argument is based solely on perception and fear. You don't have any evidence that every Muslim is a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer, you just think that's true. You are willing to paint everyone who doesn't think just like you with a broad brush, and on top of that, you're willing to let your fear of those who are different from you drive your actions to the point that you will abandon the rule of law or the bounds of decency to deal with them. I'm not sure exactly what kind of concrete evidence you need to see to discover the fallacy of that point of view.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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1) "Apparently. I never said street crime was ok. What I said was that you can't justify your own bad acts by pointing to the bad acts of others. Maybe the examples were too complicated for you. "

Examples were not complicated, just irrelevant. You can't justify your own bad acts by pointing to the bad acts of others. But you can identify the intensity, nature and threat of those bad acts anfd see waht needs to be done for protection against and eradication of that threat.

2) "You can explain your closed minded bigoted views as many times as you want."

"Close minded." ??? Hey that's the term I would have used on you.

3) "If you had said "many devout Muslims" or "some devout Muslims" you might have an argument. But as soon as you say "all devout Muslims" you have strayed into territory that is simply inaccurate."

Yup! Now we're getting somewhere. You see when I said all Muslims, (now put your little naive mentality aside just for one moment), there are always some excepptions to the rule. Especiallywhen you're talking a sample literally billions of people. But the nature of the religion, what it invokes and mass brainwashes. Now that's a given and the general rule of thumb. Yes all Muslims. Those who are not empathisers? Few and far between.

Please oh please don't accuse me of being a liar again! Besides killing my self-esteem it's just not constructive to this discussion.

4) "I can make an educated guess that if you've never come across a devout Muslim that isn't also a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer, then your experience has been limited."

All the many devout Muslims I have managed to speak to empathise. They pretty much hare Israel and the USA and never condemn but make excuses for or give justifications to the acts done by terrorists. Your educated guessing is out but maybe you have ESP?

5) "No, you judge people based on the religion they belong to."

On the actions of the people who belong to that religion and how that religion is widely taught and on what their educated exceptions themselves admit to. Somehow it seems like we're getting into semantics here. Twist and turn on them words to suit your own argument?

6) "So now it was a typo and I'm not naive for not knowing what you were talking about? Give me a break.

I reckon I know what I'm talking about it's you that keeps saying otherwise. Again asking for a break? Again I say go ahead no one's stopping you.

7) "You make shit up as you go along."

Speak for yourself.

8) "It's difficult to bring serious points to a debate based solely on religious bigotry. My opinion isn't naive, yours is simply wrong. I have experience with Muslims of varying nations, levels of devoutness, backgrounds, etc. I have been to the Middle East. I have studied with Mulsim military officers. I have a Master's Degree in National Security and I've been a member of the U.S. Military for quite a while. I'm not naive, I'm simply more open minded and have a better grip on my fear than you do. The reason there is nothing concrete in response to your argument is that your argument is based solely on perception and fear. You don't have any evidence that every Muslim is a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer, you just think that's true. You are willing to paint everyone who doesn't think just like you with a broad brush, and on top of that, you're willing to let your fear of those who are different from you drive your actions to the point that you will abandon the rule of law or the bounds of decency to deal with them. I'm not sure exactly what kind of concrete evidence you need to see to discover the fallacy of that point of view."

Well I see a lot of subjective opinions and some claims. You think what you know and I know what I know. It doesn't have to be the same. If you say who you are with your level of experience and study in National Security then you should know even better than me what a profound part the religion itself plays in this problem and threat.

If it's so difficult to talk to li'l ole bigot me with no serious points to make ... then don't. Why are you even wasting your time? I'm sure your Masters Degree could be put to much better use.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"But you can identify the intensity, nature and threat of those bad acts anfd see waht needs to be done for protection against and eradication of that threat. "

That's fine, but that's not what you've been doing. You've been justifying the idea that we should abandon legal concerns and ethical concerns regarding treatment and detainment of potential terrorists because they do worse things to their captives. You've been offering justification for bad acts by pointing to the bad acts of others.

"You see when I said all Muslims, (now put your little naive mentality aside just for one moment), there are always some excepptions to the rule."

So really you didn't mean what you said. You said all, when you meant some? Gee, maybe if you said what you meant, you'd have less problems.

"But the nature of the religion, what it invokes and mass brainwashes. Now that's a given and the general rule of thumb. Yes all Muslims. Those who are not empathisers? Few and far between."

Ahh, right back to the over generalizations. The fact, if you study Islam much, is that it doesn't require brainwashing, and the extremists are not abiding by true Islamic principles. They are following a bastardization of Islam, much like abortion bombers follow a bastardized version of Christianity.

"All the many devout Muslims I have managed to speak to empathise."

Like I said, your experience must be limited.


"On the actions of the people who belong to that religion and how that religion is widely taught and on what their educated exceptions themselves admit to."

No, on the religion itself. You have not said "Islamic extremists don't think clearly." You said all devout Muslims don't think clearly.

"Well I see a lot of subjective opinions and some claims. "

Sounds like the entire substance of your argument.

"You think what you know and I know what I know"

Right. And your opinion is somehow fact, while mine is just opinion? No wonder no one can make any headway with you. You aren't interested in debate, just in telling everyone that you are right and they are wrong.

"If you say who you are with your level of experience and study in National Security then you should know even better than me what a profound part the religion itself plays in this problem and threat. "

No doubt the religion, and the way it is twisted by extremists plays a significant part. That's a long way away from your claims that all devout Muslims support terrorism.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In response to: "the existence of the secret prisons was NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION...to be classified they had to be legal....they were and are ILLEGAL."

First off, they are not illegal under US laws. If you think so, please cite the law.

Second, the material was and is classified. As noted today on the editorial page, author Priest is noted saying: Priest said none of her sources could have talked on the record for fear of losing their jobs, because much of the information is classified.

There is nothing in Priest's story to say that these were rouge rather than authorized operations, and Congress funds all sorts of black ops things without having a clue what it is funding.

Not one of your better posts, Matt. Congrats on the new job by the way.




From the original Washington Post article.

"It is illegal for the government to hold prisoners in such isolation in secret prisons in the United States, which is why the CIA placed them overseas, according to several former and current intelligence officials and other U.S. government officials. Legal experts and intelligence officials said that the CIA's internment practices also would be considered illegal under the laws of several host countries, where detainees have rights to have a lawyer or to mount a defense against allegations of wrongdoing."

THEY ARE ILLEGAL HERE AND THEY ARE ILLEGAL THERE, AND THEY ARE IMMORAL WHEREEVER THEY ARE.

"The agency set up prisons under its covert action authority. Under U.S. law, only the president can authorize a covert action, by signing a document called a presidential finding. Findings must not break U.S. law and are reviewed and approved by CIA, Justice Department and White House legal advisers."

The finding broke US law which is why they located the prisons in Eastern Europe and Thailand.

Thailand was closed, and sometime in 2004 the CIA decided it had to give up its small site at Guantanamo Bay. The CIA had planned to convert that into a state-of-the-art facility, operated independently of the military. The CIA pulled out when U.S. courts began to exercise greater control over the military detainees, and agency officials feared judges would soon extend the same type of supervision over their detainees"

D'ya think the CIA have been trying to avoid US law???





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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Nov 7, 05 8:36
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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So that means that you do want an investigation leading to the punishment of those who leaked this information then?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Hell no, the person who leaked the information was exposing widespread and international law breaking by the CIA and this administration. Give that dude a medal.

I want an investigation into who authorized these illegal prisons, who authorized the torture, who authorized the $100 million to pay for them, how many people have died in them and who is responsible for that.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have any evidence whatsoever to indicate that the process you describe is going on, so why do you assume the worst?

Does that mean that you also want a massive investigation into the sources of the leaks?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, weren't you on the search and destroy whoever leaked Plame's classified status bandwagon?

Please confirm that you don't know that such prisons exist, that anyone was tortured, that anyone died or that one dime was spent without the authorization of Congress.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, does that mean you want the massive leak investigation including subpeonas for reporters and putting them in jail as required or not?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I am not looking for a reply to attack. I am just interested to know if you want the same kind of investigation triggered in the Plame situation, and for the same reasons.

You know I value your opinion Casey, except when it disagrees with mine, of course.
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Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Sorry, weren't you on the search and destroy whoever leaked Plame's classified status bandwagon?

Please confirm that you don't know that such prisons exist, that anyone was tortured, that anyone died or that one dime was spent without the authorization of Congress.
Please confirm that you can't see the difference between outing a covert CIA agent for political purposes, and exposing a worldwide network of illegal torture chambers?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Way too much consistency Casey. You are no fun.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Well, no one was covert and there is no showing or even allegation of any illegality or torture.

Want to rephrase your question to reflect reality?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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A. if the prisons weren't covert why were they a secret.

B. If people weren't being tortured why were they kept in secret locations in Eastern Europe and Thailand.



We got busted torturing prisoners in our own prisons so these secret covert ones were set up. Join the dots, it aint that hard there are only two of them.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"I want an investigation into who authorized these illegal prisons, who authorized the torture, who authorized the $100 million to pay for them, how many people have died in them and who is responsible for that. "

I'd much rather have big in roads into rendering the Muslim Terrorists impotent. And to keep them that way.

I want an investigation into bla-lah ... well you do but frankly I couldn't give a rat's ass. But $100 million??? How much more would an investigation cost? another $100 mill?
Last edited by: kangaroo: Nov 7, 05 10:44
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Plame was not covert. You know this. Covert agents don't get their CIA association confirmed via a phone call from a journalist to the CIA press office.

The prisons, if they exist, are secret and classified.

If there are such prisons, they are probably secret because the government probably wants to keep the prisoner identity and location secret. Sorry to be pedantic, but stupid question, stupid answer.

The we that got busted for prisoner abuse were busted by that same we. The investigation and abuse was public information well prior to the publishing of the photos, which were leaked from that same investigation by the way. (I am guessing you don't want a leak investigation there either. Correct me if I am wrong.)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Dude , go look up habeus corpus. What we are doing is ILLEGAL.



And if we aren't torturing people in thse secret offshore prisons why is the Bush White House threatening to veto John McCain's torture bill that the Senate just passed by a large majority?

Hmmmmmmm?

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Nov 7, 05 10:56
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Uh, Matt. Not to be an ass, but the US legal protections are protections for our citizens in our country. Look it up.

Next you will want the US Military to give Mirranda warnings and be pulled out of the field to give testimony at jury trials.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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With attitiudes like yours' its no wonder people hate Americans. Our freedom is sacred and we preserve the right to abuse everyone elses to protect our own.

Get real.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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why is the Bush White House threatening to veto John McCain's torture bill

Is that true? Ah ha ha ha ha ha ! ! ! Bush is going to try to VETO something? And a bill that passed by a vote of 90 to 9? Good grief.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Dude , go look up habeus corpus. What we are doing is ILLEGAL.



Dude, since you obviously don't bother researching your own comments.

Suspension during the War on Terrorism

Illegal combatants imprisoned at U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, Cuba have no apparent right to habeas corpus.

The PATRIOT Act of 2001 gives the President of the United States the power to declare anyone suspected of connection to terrorists or terrorism, as an Enemy combatant. As an Enemy combatant that person can be held without charges being filed against him/her. An Enemy combatant can be held indefinitely without charges or a court hearing and are not even entitled to legal consult.

Many legal and constitutional scholars would contend that these provisions of the PATRIOT Act are in direct opposition to habeas corpus, and the United States Bill of Rights. Specifically, American citizens declared an Enemy combatant under the PATRIOT Act may be denied their constitutional rights, as set forth in Amendments 4, 5, 6 and 8. One recent example is the Jose Padilla case.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Matt, you usually argue better than this. Why don't you answer any of my very clear questions?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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A question for you Art. Since you think its OK for America to kidnap and imprison enemy combatants and perceived threats to our security without any recourse in international law, do you think our enemies would be justified in ignoring international law when dealing with US combatants?

What if Al Qaeda kidnapped an undercover CIA operative, how would you like him/her to be treated? Would you like some international legal protections such as the principal of habeus corpus to come into play?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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ATG, I might have missed your reply. (Seriously.) Do you really think that Cheney is seeking a legal exemption for such innocuous things as ripping up the Koran, or questioning terror suspects into the wee hours of the night?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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So what you're saying is that if George Bush says human rights don't apply, then they don't apply? is that it?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Uh, Matt. Not to be an ass, but the US legal protections are protections for our citizens in our country. Look it up.

Next you will want the US Military to give Mirranda warnings and be pulled out of the field to give testimony at jury trials.


The US is a signatory to multiple international treaties that forbid the "disappearance" of prisoners. It is against international law to detain prisoners without their whereabouts being known and their being provided some rights. What the US is doing is illegal according to these treaties which are binding as law, according to your beloved Constitution.

Of course, all those flights (that were tracked via tail number) from Afghanistan to Romania and back were just R&R for service members, right?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Reread the law. It does not say George Bush. It says the president retains the right. If and when one of your guys ever wins back the White House they too will enjoy the presidential right.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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You need to refine your question to indicate whether the enemy combatants are legal, (uniform, chain of command, national identity and other Geneva Convention requirements) or illegal combatants.

It is important that legal combatants get Geneva Convention protections (including Saddam). It is equally important that illegal combatants do not get such protections.

The concept of habeus corpus or anything like that to either legal or illegal combatants has no precedent in history or in treaty.

Al Qaeda will treat any captive horribly, without distinction independent of any policy of ours. Just ask Mr. Buckley.

Oops, sorry, he was tortured to death.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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ATG, I might have missed your reply. (Seriously.) Do you really think that Cheney is seeking a legal exemption for such innocuous things as ripping up the Koran, or questioning terror suspects into the wee hours of the night?

I did not answer yet. I don't think Cheney is seeking an exemption for the things you mentioned. I think he is seeking to allow the president the authority to authorize (to the CIA) using whatever means neccessary if it means saving American lives.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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So what if the President of lets say North Korea says its OK for his secret service to kidnap and torture Americans....would that be OK too, cuz the President of the country says so?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry Ken, just not familar with those requirements and how they get interpreted.

One for you.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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So what if the President of lets say North Korea says its OK for his secret service to kidnap and torture Americans....would that be OK too, cuz the President of the country says so?




I guess it would be OK for them if that was their law.



You seem to think that if terrorists see we are giving their prisoners the same rights afforded American citizens that they will treat American prisoners the same way. I've got news for you. It ain't gonna happen. Their behaviors and treatment of prisoners, American or otherwise, is not dictated by what we do to them.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You need to refine your question to indicate whether the enemy combatants are legal, (uniform, chain of command, national identity and other Geneva Convention requirements) or illegal combatants.

It is important that legal combatants get Geneva Convention protections (including Saddam). It is equally important that illegal combatants do not get such protections.

The concept of habeus corpus or anything like that to either legal or illegal combatants has no precedent in history or in treaty.

Al Qaeda will treat any captive horribly, without distinction independent of any policy of ours. Just ask Mr. Buckley.

Oops, sorry, he was tortured to death.


I don't need to refine anything. CIA operatives generally work undercover, they are spies. They don't wear uniforms and if we use your qualifiers they are illegal combatants. Is it OK to imprison and torture them?

And for the record, how many detainees have died in American prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo....the ones we know about? and how many more have died in the secret prisons? How many people have we tortured to death?

Are we any better than Al Qaeda or Saddam? Once you go down the path that Bush is taking us there is no coming back. Every US soldier in the field is at risk of capture and torture because George Bush flushed all semblance of civility and human rights down the shitter. How can we expect the enemy to treat Americans with any civility when we are torturing our prisoners?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think you are looking at this the right way. POTUS is required to protect this country. POTUS, or his successors don't want to be in the position of having to make a nasty decision and be subject to impeachment after the fact. Remember the Boland Amendments?

Congress, on the other hand, has to be complimented for trying to make a decision. I have laughed as you and others whine how everything is illegal, but Congress won't pass a law to actually make it illegal.

North Korea engages in that behavior all the time. Just ask South Korea and Japan. They don't seem to care whether we think it is OK for some reason.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
. Their behaviors and treatment of prisoners, American or otherwise, is not dictated by what we do to them.


John McCain thinks it is.



"Mr. President, to fight terrorism we need intelligence. That much is obvious. What should also be obvious is that the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women. To do differently would not only offend our values as Americans, but undermine our war effort, because abuse of prisoners harms – not helps – us in the war on terror. First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops who might be captured by the enemy – if not in this war, then in the next. And third, prisoner abuses exact on us a terrible toll in the war of ideas, because inevitably these abuses become public. When they do, the cruel actions of a few darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions. American values should win against all others in any war of ideas, and we can’t let prisoner abuse tarnish our image."

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Nov 7, 05 11:32
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry Ken, just not familar with those requirements and how they get interpreted.

One for you.


(vitus will have to forgive me for comparing US policy to Nazi Germany)

From Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/...4/4.htm#_Toc84652972):

"“Disappearances” have come to be regarded as a quintessential evil practiced by abusive governments. The method seems to have been invented by Adolf Hitler in his Nacht und Nebel Erlass (Night and Fog Decree) of December 7, 1941. The purpose of this decree was to seize persons in occupied territories “endangering German security” who were not immediately executed and to transport them secretly to Germany, where they disappeared without trace. German authorities prohibited officials from giving any information in order to achieve the desired intimidating effect."

Sound eerily familiar?

But more to your point:

"International law also bars incommunicado detention, even when it does not constitute “disappearance.” The authoritative Restatement (Third) of Foreign Relations Law of the United States lists categories of acts that violate customary international law. Section 702 (Customary International Law of Human Rights) provides that a state violates international law if, as a matter of state policy, it practices, encourages, or condones (a) genocide, (b) slavery or slave trade, (c) the murder or causing the disappearance of individuals, (d) torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, (e) prolonged arbitrary detention, (f) systematic racial discrimination, or (g) a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.

Under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which the United States has ratified, all prisoners are to be treated “with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.” States have a duty to take effective action to minimize the risk of torture. The elected Human Rights Committee, which monitors the ICCPR, has stated:

To guarantee the effective protection of detained persons, provisions should be made for detainees to be held in places officially recognized as places of detention and for their names and places of detention, as well as for the names of persons responsible for their detention, to be kept in registers readily available and accessible to those concerned, including relatives and friends. To the same effect, the time and place of all interrogations should be recorded, together with the names of all those present and this information should also be available for purposes of judicial or administrative proceedings. Provisions should also be made against incommunicado detention.

The Third Geneva Convention in article 126 (concerning prisoners of war) and the Fourth Geneva Convention in article 143 (concerning detained civilians) requires the ICRC to have access to all detainees and places of detention. Visits may only be prohibited for “reasons of imperative military necessity” and then only as “an exceptional and temporary measure.” These provisions also require that prisoners be documented, and that their whereabouts be made available to their family and governments.

It is also not clear what U.S. law allows officials to hold these suspects in prolonged incommunicado detention. In June 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Authorization for Use of Military Force Act, which Congress passed after September 11 authorizing the President to pursue al-Qaeda and its supporters, gave him the power to detain enemy forces captured in battle. Speaking for the plurality of the Court, however, Justice Sandra Day O’Connor said, “Certainly, we agree that indefinite detention for the purposes of interrogation is not authorized.” United States law considers both “prolonged detention without charges and trial,” and “causing the disappearance of persons by the abduction and clandestine detention of those persons” to constitute “gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.”"

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think you are looking at this the right way. POTUS is required to protect this country.


Actually, you are wrong. Here's the Oath of Office:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Note that it is his job to protect the Constitution. The Constitution says that international treaties to which the US is a signatory are considered legally binding. Holding prisoners incommunicado is a violation of said treaties. Is he preserving and protecting the Constitution? I will admit that nowhere in the Oath is it said that he must actually obey the Constitution, so I guess Cheney can non-say his way around that one.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think you are looking at this the right way. POTUS is required to protect this country. POTUS, or his successors don't want to be in the position of having to make a nasty decision and be subject to impeachment after the fact. Remember the Boland Amendments?

Congress, on the other hand, has to be complimented for trying to make a decision. I have laughed as you and others whine how everything is illegal, but Congress won't pass a law to actually make it illegal.

North Korea engages in that behavior all the time. Just ask South Korea and Japan. They don't seem to care whether we think it is OK for some reason.


So you think its OK for a President or dictator or a mad mullah who just so happens to run a country, to arbitrarily announce that he's going to begin rounding up and torturing people he thinks is a threat to his security?

Why did we overthrow Saddam again? I'm confused.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting post Ken.

I am not sure whether anything the US is alleged to have done, excepting the obvious abuses at Abu Graib, violate any of this or not.

I don't see any prolonged arbitrary detentions, with the operative word be arbitrary. I also agree with O,Conner that they can't be indefinite detentions.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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The answer is no.

Now will you answer some of my questions?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Fire away.



(And if you don't think its OK for a President to arbitrarily announce that he's going to round people up and torture them, why are you arguing in favor of the existence of these secret prisons where people have been rounded up and are being tortured?...just curious)

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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They are above. You dodged them all.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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(vitus will have to forgive me for comparing US policy to Nazi Germany)


No, in this case I agree with you. More to the point, you're freely admitting the comparison, which I appreciate.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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don't think Cheney is seeking an exemption for the things you mentioned. I think he is seeking to allow the president the authority to authorize (to the CIA) using whatever means neccessary if it means saving American lives.

Then I don't understand your continued insistence that what you think consitutes torture might be different than what I think constitutes torture, and that you don't think abusing the Koran is torture, etc etc. It seems a fairly irrelevent point if we both agree that what Cheney is seeking is, in fact, the ability to torture someone.

What you seemed to be saying earlier is that Cheney is not really looking for the ability to torture someone. Now you seem to be saying that he is seeking the ability to torture someone if the president thinks it's necessary. I agree with your current analysis, if I'm understanding you correctly.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I think the bee up your ass is in relation to some supposed double standard in the investigation surrounding the outing of Valerie Plame and the lack of an investigation surounding the leaking of information which led to the secret prison story?

OK.

A. Karl Rove, Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney outed a covert CIA field agent to exact political revenge against her husband who refused to lie about the non existent Niger uranium deal. In my opinion that warrants an investigation.

B. Someone in the administration or the CIA found out about secret prisons that violate just about every international convention this country has signed, where people are being kidnapped off the streets of sovereign nations and flown to these remote locations by the CIA for "interrogation"...and he blew the whistle. In my opinion that is a person doing their job and uncovering Govt corruption. That person doesn't need to be investigated, the Government does.



Happy now?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Vitus - isn't this an inane argument? Why are we arguing about whether torture is wrong? Is this a conversation we would have had 10 years ago? If not, then why does this suddenly become questionable now unless we are not as principled as we claim we are?

Next we'll be arguing about whether its okay to execute 12 yr olds without trial if we "know" they're terrorists.


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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect hypocracy, even given the assumptions you state in your inflamatory spin, most of which you know are simply not true.

My position is much simpler. Let's have a journalist witch hunt every time or basically never.

With your approach, we need a "what is OK to leak and what is not OK to leak czar." Have you applied? Maybe that was your promotion.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [trio_jeepy] [ In reply to ]
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isn't this an inane argument?

Yes. But inanity has never been a defense against the need to have the conversation, sadly.

If not, then why does this suddenly become questionable now unless we are not as principled as we claim we are?

It saddens me to say it, but it seems at times like this that we aren't nearly as principled as we so like to think we are when times are easy.

It really is sad, to be forced into a conversation of whether or not the United States of America should be secretly imprisoning people, and engaging in torture, and it's most distressing to think of the possibility that a majority of Americans think we should.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I don't recall my own posts but I don't think I ever said "that Cheney is not really looking for the ability to torture someone." Our whole conversation, and my answers to your questions, were what I thought torture was and is. I think you are really taking liberty by saying "that what Cheney is seeking is, in fact, the ability to torture someone." I think what he is seeking is a provision to allow the president the right to grant the CIA the authority to use torture in extreme circumstances where the prisoner may have information that would keep Americans from being killed.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I don't recall my own posts but I don't think I ever said "that Cheney is not really looking for the ability to torture someone."

I think it's funny that you accused me of playing word games just recently.

We were engaged in a discussion of Cheney's lobbying for an exemption allowing cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment, which I took as nothing more than an exemption allowing torture. You replied saying that what you think is torture might not be what I think is torture, and therefore, I guessed, tried to make that case that what Cheney is after is only the authority to engage is cruel treatment that doesn't amount to torture. Then you asked me if I thought abusing the Koran was torture, and gave me a laundry list of behavior's Saddam engaged in, but we presumably would not, because that stuff is just Bad.

I think you are really taking liberty by saying "that what Cheney is seeking is, in fact, the ability to torture someone." I think what he is seeking is a provision to allow the president the right to grant the CIA the authority to use torture in extreme circumstances where the prisoner may have information that would keep Americans from being killed.

I think there's no real difference between those statements.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of difference between those statements, and you know it.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Difference being?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The most important difference from a practical point of view is to prevent later charges of illegal torture as part of an Irancontra style witchhunt. Having a law as proposed by Congress on the books invites a future witchhunt whether justified in fact or not.

As Tip O'Neil said, it is not the nature of the evidence that warrants the investigation, but the seriousness of the charge.

The President needs this authority. He also needs to never use this authority.

Just like Congress has the authority to impeach the President and VP and insert the Speaker into the Presidency. It needs that authority. It also needs to never use that authority.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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"Since you think its OK for America to kidnap and imprison enemy combatants and perceived threats to our security without any recourse in international law, do you think our enemies would be justified in ignoring international law when dealing with US combatants? "

American combattants are not comparable to illegal terrorist combatants. They have different statuses under international law.



"What if Al Qaeda kidnapped an undercover CIA operative, how would you like him/her to be treated? "

I think it's pretty clear to covert CIA officers that if caught, they will be treated however the enemy wants since they are spies and not legal combatants under the protection of the Geneva Conventions

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, try actually answering the question.

What's the difference between:

"that what Cheney is seeking is, in fact, the ability to torture someone."

and

allow the president the right to grant the CIA the authority to use torture in extreme circumstances where the prisoner may have information that would keep Americans from being killed.

There is no difference, because "extreme circumstances" and "where the prisoner may have information that would keep Americans killed" are vague and would be (and have been) applied fairly indiscriminately.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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It appears yo may be looking at my posts from two different threads on similar topics. This one and the one on Cheney and torture. I never responded to whether I thought what Cheney was doing was OK or not. Your very first question to me on the subject was:

Armytriguy has mentioned that he believes there's a difference between torture and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading," conditions, I think. I would love to hear from him what constitutes torture, and what only constitutes cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment, and if he really expects us to believe that people running a secret prison somewhere are going to recognize and respect the difference.

I responded with my feelings on what constitutes torture and that I don't feel we are engaging in these particular acts.

Well I haven't exactly said what I felt was the difference between torture and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading," conditions. I will tell you what I think "torture" is and I would bet a months pay the US does not do any of these.

# Medical experimentation

# Crucifixion

# Hammering nails into the fingers and hands

# Amputating sex organs or breasts with an electric carving knife

# Spraying insecticides into a victim's eyes

# Branding with a hot iron

# Committing rape while the victim's spouse is forced to watch

# Pouring boiling water into the victim's rectum

# Nailing the tongue to a wooden board

# Extracting teeth with pliers

# Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents

These were some of the ways Saddam treated his prisoners. And by the way there was no oversight agency reporting on what was going on either as Ken seems to think is a must.


This last comment was not in answer to whether or not I felt Cheney was seeking the ability to torture someone because that is not what you asked.



Now in this most recent discussion I do think you are using semantics with your comment about Cheney seeking the ability to torture someone. Torture is one of those emotional words that gets everyone fired up. The fact is he is only asking for an exemption for the CIA and give the president the right to grant the CIA the ability in extreme circumstances. If you want to know whether or not I think this is OK I would answer yes. I think in extreme cases if there is the chance that a prisoner/detainee has information that would save American lives then I think it is neccessary. I do not think that what Cheney is asking for is the ability to do the things I mentioned above. I would not feel good if we did to the prisoners the same thing Saddam did.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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The first talks about actually torturing someone. The second talks about having authority that protects POTUS against allegations of torture and prevents partisan witchhunts on the issue.

If Congress wants to impeach POTUS, they don't need this law. They can impeach him for having sex with his wife should they so desire.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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The first talks about actually torturing someone. The second talks about having authority that protects POTUS against allegations of torture

By making it legal to actually torture someone. You really have been reading to much Elwood, Art.

prevents partisan witchhunts on the issue.

Give it a rest with the witchhunt bit, already. You sound ridiculous.

If Congress wants to impeach POTUS, they don't need this law. They can impeach him for having sex with his wife should they so desire.

Earth to Art: WTF are you talking about?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Torture is one of those emotional words that gets everyone fired up.

Yeah, there's a reason for that. And there's a reason why Cheney isn't lobbying Congress for the authority to torture detainees, but only to treat them cruelly, inhumanely, and degradingly. And somehow I'm the one abusing semantics.

If you want to know whether or not I think this is OK I would answer yes. I think in extreme cases if there is the chance that a prisoner/detainee has information that would save American lives then I think it is neccessary. I do not think that what Cheney is asking for is the ability to do the things I mentioned above.

So you think torture is OK in extreme circumstances, but not the specific means of torture Saddam used, which you don't think the Administration wants to use, anyway. What forms of torture do you think the administration is seeking, ATG? And why are they less objectionable to you than Saddam's methods? (We can talk about what exactly "extreme circumstances" are, and who gets to define them, and how it would be possible to hold people accountable for abusing the definition later, if you like.)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The only way to enforce such a restriction on Presidential power is via impeachment. Impeachment is a political, not a legal action. They can impeach POTUS today for torture. They don't need this law.

This is Congress trying to erode Executive authority. POTUS should oppose it, like the War Powers Act and other such Congressional actions. Should Congress get a 2/3 majority, so be it.

Should someone actually try to imprison a future POTUS after impeachment or after he leaves office, the Supreme Court would get to weigh in on whether Congress usurped Executive Authority in violation of the Constitution. That would be a fun Constitutional crisis to put the country through.

Hopefully the law will die a peaceful death.

Life is complicated. POTUS, like Congress, needs all sorts of authority that we pray will never be used.

I am trying to think of a POTUS during my adult life that significant politcal powers didn't try to impeach or imprison or both. Can't think of one off hand. Maybe Carter. We don't really need more vehicles for such actions.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I take it back. It isn't that you're reading too many of Elwood's posts, it's obviously that you're just smoking way too much crack.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I know how you like to write rules for every situation Vitus, but sometimes that just doesn't work.

What you are proposing is that POTUS have the authority to start a nuclear war, but not have the authority to authorize torture.

If you trust POTUS with the first, why can't you trust POTUS with the second?
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I know how you like to write rules for every situation Vitus, but sometimes that just doesn't work.

What I like is for near-universal standards of human decency to be accepted, Art, and that precludes such things as torture. (I know, there goes holier-than-thou Vitus, spouting off about morality, again.)

What you are proposing is that POTUS have the authority to start a nuclear war, but not have the authority to authorize torture.

I do NOT propose that the president (is there a reason you always refer to POTUS? It's like reading message traffic again.) has the authority to start a nuclear war. I don't recognize any such authority, and neither does your favorite document, the Constitution.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Last edited by: vitus979: Nov 7, 05 14:27
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You got me there. He can't start a nuclear war. He can only launch nuclear weapons.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art, the longer this goes on, the more trio-jeepy's complaint about inanity rings true.

Are you really saying that because the president is entrusted with our nuclear weapons, any other legal restictions on his power are nonsensical?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art if you can't see the simple difference between a person who leaks the name of an American undercover operative for political gain and a person who blows the whistle on Government misdeeds, then theres no point continuing with this inane debate.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Post deleted by Casey [ In reply to ]
Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I can do that.

The out of control spending, enabled by the Republican Party, is a violation of decency that threatens the financial stability of the country.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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So you trust POTUS with atomic bombs, but not a checkbook?!








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. You nailed that one.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"So you trust POTUS with atomic bombs, but not a checkbook?!"

That surprises you? Less taxes and smaller federal govt, but strong Commander in Chief doesn't sound that far off for a conservative to me.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Well, thank God I am not a neoconservative.

You can count on a politcian of any party to use the checkbook early and often. They don't have the courage to use the nuclear weapons.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well, thank God I am not a neoconservative.

You can count on a politcian of any party to use the checkbook early and often. They don't have the courage to use the nuclear weapons.
They also seem to use torture early and often, which is why we trust the president to control nuclear missiles but not to authorize torture.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"They also seem to use torture early and often" this said in response to: "You can count on a politcian of any party to use the checkbook early and often"

You really mean to say politicians use torture early and often or are you just exagerrating for the purpose of getting back to an argument about torture?

I don't think anyone has asked for permission to authorize torture, just protection that would allow the CIA to explore methods involving things that might be offensive but might not constitute torture. I think we've all agreed that there are things that fall short of torture that might still be considered demeaning. Maybe not, maybe you think anything that is demeaning is torture.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You really mean to say politicians use torture early and often or are you just exagerrating for the purpose of getting back to an argument about torture?

What I mean is that the CIA/military seems to be using it, presumably under the direction from the administration. And no, I'm not talking about naked pyramids, I'm talking about prisoners beaten to death both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Couple that with secret prisons in foeign countries, Bush asking Gonzalez whether US treatment of prisoners amounts to torutre, Cheney asking for an exemption for the CIA to torture... all that adds up to a picture of an administration that wants to play fast and loose with the rules of human decency (not to mention international treaties) so long as it's dealing with non-uniformed prisoners because some might be terrorists.

I dont think you can rationalize torture in any circumstance (not the least because it yields untrustworthy imformation) but I don't buy for a minute Art's spin that they want an exemption for the CIA to torture in some drastic case which hopefully will never happen - I think they want cover so the CIA can keep doing what it's doing in its secret prisons.



I don't think anyone has asked for permission to authorize torture, just protection that would allow the CIA to explore methods involving things that might be offensive but might not constitute torture. I think we've all agreed that there are things that fall short of torture that might still be considered demeaning. Maybe not, maybe you think anything that is demeaning is torture.


We're not talking about demeaning, we're talking about "cruel, degrading, and inhuman" (or was it "inhumane"?) treatment. So far we've established that Cheney is not talking about sleep deprivation or ripping up the Koran. And ATG is sure that even though rape, pouring boiling water down the throat, scorpoin and bee stinging etc.. would fall under "cruel, degrading, and inhuman" he's pretty sure Cheney doesn't want the CIA to do that. But what I haven't seen is an example of what Cheney wants to the CIA to be able to do. What is "cruel, degrading, and inhuman" but not torture?

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"But what I haven't seen is an example of what Cheney wants to the CIA to be able to do. What is "cruel, degrading, and inhuman" but not torture?"

I don't know what that list would entail, but I think the point is that there might be legitimate tools there that would be ruled out by the fairly general nature of the language. For instance, there is plenty of degrading behaviour that might not be torture. Also, it is quite easy to imagine that telling someone their beliefs are false could be argued as being cruel.

"What I mean is that the CIA/military seems to be using it, presumably under the direction from the administration."

I think that's a vast overgeneralization. I haven't seen any evidence that the CIA is torturing anyone in these "secret prisons." We have seen some limited examples of torture or, more accurately, unacceptable conduct in Army prisons, but they have been addressed. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest that this conduct is widespread.

"Bush asking Gonzalez whether US treatment of prisoners amounts to torutre"

That's the job of a White House Counsel. Plus, if I remember correctly, what Gonzalez commented on was whether or not the Geneva Conventions applied to the detainees.

"all that adds up to a picture of an administration that wants to play fast and loose with the rules of human decency (not to mention international treaties) so long as it's dealing with non-uniformed prisoners because some might be terrorists. "

Sounds more like an Administration that wants to pursue everything that falls within the law. Also, that last sentence is misleading. We are not rounding up random people on the chance that some of them might be terrorists, and you know it. We are rounding up people we believe to be terrorists based on their actions or intelligence.

"So far we've established that Cheney is not talking about sleep deprivation or ripping up the Koran"

That's fine that we've established that here, but if the law applies to the CIA, then who's to stop someone from making the argument that sleep deprivation is cruel or that ripping up the Koran is degrading?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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From what I understand, that is a big part of the problem with the legislation. It is very vague.

Vague legislation results in Court's deciding what the legislation actually means. No Administration is going to support having judges determine foreign policy after the fact.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what that list would entail, but I think the point is that there might be legitimate tools there that would be ruled out by the fairly general nature of the language. For instance, there is plenty of degrading behaviour that might not be torture. Also, it is quite easy to imagine that telling someone their beliefs are false could be argued as being cruel.

There is an international treaty against torture. Any legitimate interrogation technique short of that is legal, is it not? The only purpose of Cheney's amendment is to allow the CIA to violate the ban on torture. (it's worth noting that some here admit to this, but think it's justifiable if it's done with the goal of saving American lives)

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I am one of those who feels that anything we can do to save American lives is fair game. More to the point of your issue however was already answered by slowguy below. Its like the gun ownership debate. If someone breaks into my house and I feel threatened I could call the police. On the other hand I could shoot them because I felt if I waited for the police to arrive my family would be dead. There is no question what I would choose.


I don't think anyone has asked for permission to authorize torture, just protection that would allow the CIA to explore methods involving things that might be offensive but might not constitute torture. I think we've all agreed that there are things that fall short of torture that might still be considered demeaning. Maybe not, maybe you think anything that is demeaning is torture.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"There is an international treaty against torture. Any legitimate interrogation technique short of that is legal, is it not?"

It would be legal under international law. However, if we pass a domestic law that is sufficiently vague as to allow for it to be interpreted as more restrictive than the UN Conventions, then you would decrease the number of techniques that would still be legal.

"The only purpose of Cheney's amendment is to allow the CIA to violate the ban on torture."

The UN Conventions are still the law, regardless of this new law. This new law doesn't talk about torture, to the best of my knowledge. It talks about cruel, degrading, or inhumane acts, which is different in a legal sense, if not to your sense of ethics.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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However, if we pass a domestic law that is sufficiently vague as to allow for it to be interpreted as more restrictive than the UN Conventions, then you would decrease the number of techniques that would still be legal.


I agree that "cruel" and to some degree "degrading" care vague. Perhaps that's a weakness of this law. However, if an act is "inhuman" it damn well better be prohibited.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"However, if an act is "inhuman" it damn well better be prohibited. "

I think the word is "inhumane." Humane means "characterized by compassion for others, so inhumane isn't as bad as it might sound if you take off that "e."

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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the two words are used fairly interchangeably - McCain's amendement did use "inhumane" but clearly references the convention agsint totrure, cruel, degrading, or inhuman treatment.

Worth the read, by Sen McCain:

Cruel, Inhumane, Degrading Treatment

The second part of this amendment really shouldn’t be objectionable to anyone since I’m actually not proposing anything new. The prohibition against cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment has been a longstanding principle in both law and policy in the United States. Before I get into why this amendment is necessary, let me first review the history.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948, states simply that “No one shall be subject to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which the U.S. is a signatory, states the same. The binding Convention Against Torture, negotiated by the Reagan administration and ratified by the Senate, prohibits cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment. On last year’s DOD Authorization bill, the Senate passed a bipartisan amendment reaffirming that no detainee in U.S. custody can be subject to torture or cruel treatment, as the U.S. has long defined those terms. All of this seems to be common sense, in accordance with longstanding American values.

But since last year’s DOD bill, a strange legal determination was made that the prohibition in the Convention Against Torture against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment does not legally apply to foreigners held outside the U.S. They can, apparently, be treated inhumanely. This is the administration’s position, even though Judge Abe Soafer, who negotiated the Convention Against Torture for President Reagan, said in a recent letter that the Reagan administration never intended the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment to apply only on U.S. soil.

What all this means is that America is the only country in the world that asserts a legal right to engage in cruel and inhuman treatment. But the crazy thing is that it is not even necessary, because the Administration has said that it will not engage in cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as a matter of policy. What this also means is that confusion about the rules becomes rampant again. We have so many differing legal standards and loopholes that our lawyers and generals are confused – just imagine our troops serving in prisons and the field.

So the amendment I am offering simply codifies what is current policy and reaffirms what was assumed to be existing law for years. In light of the administration’s stated commitment, it should require no change in our current interrogation and detention practices. What it would do is restore clarity on a simple and fundamental question: Does America treat people inhumanely? My answer is no, and from all I’ve seen, America’s answer has always been no.

Mr. President, let me just close by noting that I hold no brief for the prisoners. I do hold a brief for the reputation of the United States of America. We are Americans, and we hold ourselves to humane standards of treatment of people no matter how evil or terrible they may be. To do otherwise undermines our security, but it also undermines our greatness as a nation. We are not simply any other country. We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.

I urge my colleagues to support this amendment.

http://mccain.senate.gov/...&Content_id=1611

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am one of those who feels that anything we can do to save American lives is fair game.

Raping a terrorists wife? Pouring boiling water into a terrorists anus? Etc etc.

I don't think anyone has asked for permission to authorize torture, just protection that would allow the CIA to explore methods involving things that might be offensive but might not constitute torture.

You're spinning so fast I'm getting dizzy.

Maybe not, maybe you think anything that is demeaning is torture.

We're back to this, huh? I thought we settled this already when we agreed that Cheney is not seeking an exemption for that kind of thing.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Once again Vitus. For the record, I'm against torture.

I'm also against outlawing it. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. It may take a nimble mind to manage both ideas, but it's worth the effort.


The U.S. maintains a string of secret prisons in eastern Europe where we have stashed captured Al Qaeda guys. And I am not in favor of telling these guys what we won't do. I am not in favor of Al Qaeda knowing there is a U.S. law which prevents CIA agents from making life miserable for captured Al Qaedas.

To my way of thinking, the benefit gained from telling the world we have a law that forbids torture is outweighed by the bad guys knowing we have a law that forbids torture. Again it's U.S. policy to not torture, but it shouldn't be so crystal clear that even a kid educated in a madrassa and trained as a bomb builder is certain that there is law that prevents torture. We would like him to be in doubt on that point.

The findings some 20 years ago with the Church Committee have led to some less than desirable results in the new century. I thought we had learned that legislating rules and procedures for the CIA is not such a good thing — at least not in all cases — and we ought to be careful about putting stops in the way of spooks who are only trying to protect us.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You need to qualify that Vitus.

Raping a "suspect's" wife, or pouring boiling water into the anus of a "suspect".

Remember none of these people have been tried or convicted of anything and none of them have had access to any kind of legal representation. They have been picked up off the street by the CIA presumably based on tip offs or intelligence from paid informants....so one of these paid informants could have a row with his dry cleaner over the amount of starch in his shirts and hey presto, the next day the guy is on a charter flight to Romania and having electrodes attached to his gonads by the CIA.

Anyone remember all that intel we paid Chalabi hundreds of thousands of dollars for? anyone remember the intel that led the CIA to say that the existence of WMDs was a "slam dunk", anyone remember the intel that let to the rounding up of thousands of Arab Americans post 9/11 all of whom were eventually released?

Without any sort of due process we will end up torturing a lot more innocent people than guilty.....and what will that achieve...well we'll probably turn a lot of peaceful dry cleaners into angry terrorists, and who could blame them?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Once again Vitus. For the record, I'm against torture.

You are making it perfectly clear to me how much you're against torture in much the same way the administration is. Didn't you just say that you'd favor doing anything necessary to a terrorist to save American lives?

I'm also against outlawing it. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. It may take a nimble mind to manage both ideas, but it's worth the effort.

I think, although your mind appears more nimble than mine, that it's like saying one is against abortion, but doesn't want it banned.

The U.S. maintains a string of secret prisons in eastern Europe where we have stashed captured Al Qaeda guys. And I am not in favor of telling these guys what we won't do.

I am. I'm in favor of proclaiming proudly to the whole world that there's a moral difference between those guys and Americans, and we do not commit what every civilized people consider an atrocity.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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You need to qualify that Vitus.

Raping a "suspect's" wife, or pouring boiling water into the anus of a "suspect".


That's true. I was only accepting the assertion that the only people we have in secret prisons, and the only people we'd actually torture, are in fact terrorists for the sake of argument. (Does anyone believe, still, that all of the prisoners in Iraq, for example, are guilty of being insurgents?)













"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent post, ATG. This attitude nails it.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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What attitude? Dishonesty?

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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In military encounters, the rules of engagement are always secret. You don't want the enemy to know what you will do or how you will do it.

ATG wants the rules secret, so that when prisoners are captured, they won't know what to expect and will be scared.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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So you really think that if we pass McCain's law, terror suspects won't be scared of the CIA? Gimme a break. you know they'll just say they're the Mossad anyway.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I think ATG put it very well. I don't have anything to add other than yes, they will be less scared of the CIA.

We have all sorts of laws governing police conduct in this country. That is a good thing. I know if I have a problem with the Police, I can laugh at them and let them take their best shot. I don't want enemies of this country thinking that way about our troops or the CIA.

Marine code is no better friend and no worse enemy. I want both halves of that to continue to be true.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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So let me clarify - you dont actually want the CIA to torture anyone, but you want them to be allowed to torture simply to scare prisoners. Is that correct?

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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That is pretty close with the possible exception of extraordinary circumstances. I do mean extraordinary as that word is defined, not as used by the gang of 14 regarding filibusters. Extraordinary means that it will probably never happen.

That is the policy I would like, and that policy should be secret.

As a people we need to deal with the fact that we have to trust our leaders with important decisions that we often never learn about. If you can't so trust them, then don't elect them. Restricting them with rules claiming "high crimes" if someone photographs a little Iraqi penis while simultaneously giving POTUS the authority to push a button and incinerate a country is just stupid. Talk about deck chairs on the Titanic.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
That is pretty close with the possible exception of extraordinary circumstances. I do mean extraordinary as that word is defined, not as used by the gang of 14 regarding filibusters. Extraordinary means that it will probably never happen.
I think that's delusional, frankly. We make exemptions, and the CIA will be using cruel, degrading, and inhuman(e) tactics early and often.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Evidently we're to believe that Cheney's request amounts to nothing more than a disinformation campaign aimed at potential detainees.

It's laughable. We're to believe that CIA interrogators are unable to intimidate detainees in secret prisons without the legal authority to torture people? Please.

What makes it even more absurd is Art's support, in the face of his constant statements about how complicated gamesmanship is. This is going to make future detainees more fearful of interrogators, because they're going to believe it. It's not, I guess, going to have any impact on the wider world opinion of the US, and it's not going to have any impact on how the Islamic world views the US, and it's not going to have any impact on mitigating the hatred so many people have for the US. It's only going to have an effect on terrorists. Everyone else will realize that we don't really mean it.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Vitus its amazing how much more sense you seem to make when you're on the same side of a debate as me.



;-)

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect a fair number of people in here secretly harbor similiar feelings, Matt.

:)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I think that the people charged with protecting this country are going to just that, regardless of rules designed for feel good public consumption. (I also believe that the potential enemy targets of such treatment also understand that, or can be readily made to understand it.)

If you were so charged and convinced to a moral certainty that they guy in front of you had information necessary to prevent a bombing, I suspect you might wire his nuts up to a car battery. Or would the second time, after the bomb went off.

Is it disturbing to think that Americans would act this way? I think like a lot of hard choices, it depends. I resolve the issue this way: We are at war. The rights I have as an American derive from the fact that I AM an American. Joe Al Qaida is not and does not get to enjoy those rights. This is similar to the Geneva Convention argument. The Conventions deal with the treatment of soldiers. A defined term. Insurgents do not have similar coverage and should not be given similar treatment.

So, am I personally thrilled that I will be unlikely to be confronted by such a choice? You betcha. Cuz being wrong would really really suck. I would prefer to have non-public rules developed to minimize the chances of mistakes rather than spend time making rules that will not be obeyed.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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If you were so charged and convinced to a moral certainty that they guy in front of you had information necessary to prevent a bombing, I suspect you might wire his nuts up to a car battery. Or would the second time, after the bomb went off.

Doubtful, since torture is known to yield inaccurate responses. The argument that a CIA agent will be in a situation where he needs urgent information, and only torture will yield this information, is specious. Likewise the argument that, (prisoners such as Kahild Sheik Muhhammed aside), an agent will be certain that a suspect has useful information about the impeding deaths of Americans.

The rights I have as an American derive from the fact that I AM an American.

I think vitus979 needs to educate you on the source of rights, and not simply in a legal sense. This concept that Americans inherently have more human rights than other people is pretty sad actually. At least let me inform you that since the US is a signatory to the Conventions Against Torture, foreigners have the same legal right as you not to be tortured under the laws of this country.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am sure our friends here will be demanding an investigation into this leak. I am sure they are shocked, shocked to see that the CIA leaks to the NY Times.


Well Art, looks like you're going to get your investigation

http://www.cnn.com/...son.probe/index.html

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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"Doubtful, since torture is known to yield inaccurate responses."

I am going to trust, yes, trust, the people immediately involved to know the limitations of any particular methodology. I simply do not ascribe to the belief that the CIA is a bunch of raving, torture happy psychopaths. I have no reason to believe that it is currently torturing everyone who falls into their clutches.

"(prisoners such as Kahild Sheik Muhhammed aside), an agent will be certain that a suspect has useful information about the impeding deaths of Americans."

That was the example I was thinking of, for what it is worth.


"I think vitus979 needs to educate you on the source of rights, and not simply in a legal sense.This concept that Americans inherently have more human rights than other people is pretty sad actually."

Natural Rights, gotcha. The problem is that we are discussing a proposed US law. It is precisely the legal sense that we are talking about. Under US law, being a citizen matters. (for the moment and at least a little bit.) The McCain amendment, as I understand it expands the protections against torture beyond the treaty. Correct me if I am wrong. In that sense, I disagree. If, on the other hand, it reaffirms treaty obligations, it is a stunt, along the lines of passing more gun control laws when the thousand plus already on the books are not enforced.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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Correct me if I am wrong

You are wrong.

I posted this before, but here it is again from John McCain's website: (emphasis mine)

Cruel, Inhumane, Degrading Treatment

The second part of this amendment really shouldn’t be objectionable to anyone since I’m actually not proposing anything new. The prohibition against cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment has been a longstanding principle in both law and policy in the United States. Before I get into why this amendment is necessary, let me first review the history.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948, states simply that “No one shall be subject to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which the U.S. is a signatory, states the same. The binding Convention Against Torture, negotiated by the Reagan administration and ratified by the Senate, prohibits cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment. On last year’s DOD Authorization bill, the Senate passed a bipartisan amendment reaffirming that no detainee in U.S. custody can be subject to torture or cruel treatment, as the U.S. has long defined those terms. All of this seems to be common sense, in accordance with longstanding American values.

But since last year’s DOD bill, a strange legal determination was made that the prohibition in the Convention Against Torture against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment does not legally apply to foreigners held outside the U.S. They can, apparently, be treated inhumanely. This is the administration’s position, even though Judge Abe Soafer, who negotiated the Convention Against Torture for President Reagan, said in a recent letter that the Reagan administration never intended the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment to apply only on U.S. soil.

...

So the amendment I am offering simply codifies what is current policy and reaffirms what was assumed to be existing law for years. In light of the administration’s stated commitment, it should require no change in our current interrogation and detention practices. What it would do is restore clarity on a simple and fundamental question: Does America treat people inhumanely? My answer is no, and from all I’ve seen, America’s answer has always been no

--------------------

Call it s stunt, but the simple fact that Cheney is asking for the exemption only underscores its neccesity to me.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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From the Convention against Torture.
  1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. [/url]


I think, despite the language you are quoting from the website, that the amendment does represent a change in the law. I think the use of dogs to intimidate, for example, might pass the test as not being severe pain or suffering, but would not pass muster under the McCain amendment. If the amendment did not represent a change in US law, I do not think the administration would be opposing it quite as vigourously.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, well that is just dandy. I am sure a Congressional hearing is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of a national security leak.

Pardon me while I go puke.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I'm finding this very interesting, espeically since you are often careful not to get ahead of stories...

I am sure our friends here will be demanding an investigation into this leak. I am sure they are shocked, shocked to see that the CIA leaks to the NY Times.

I'm sure you're aware by now that Trent Lott is suggesting that the leak came from Republicans who attended a briefing lunch with Dick Cheney. It's all a muddled path right now. Are you sure you want the investigation?

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You're not stuck in traffic. You ARE traffic.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Fatmouse] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I want the investigation. And I want it to be classified, not some public spectacle.

The CIA and the State Department are rouge agencies with significant elements pursuing their own agenda in opposition to policies of the Executive.

If some Senators are leaking highly classified information like good old Leahy, they need to face consequences too.

If you want to have one investigation, then let's have them all.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I may have missed the story you're referring to, been on vacation and avoiding the news. What leak was Leahy involved in?

Thanks.

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You're not stuck in traffic. You ARE traffic.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Fatmouse] [ In reply to ]
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It was many years ago so I don't remember the details anymore. He was busted and thrown off the Senate Intelligence committee as a result of his leaking.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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The rights I have as an American derive from the fact that I AM an American.

Don't other people, unfortunate as they may be not to have been born here, have rights too or is it that American rights trump all other countries because we have the most wealth?

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders. Canadians don't have First Amendment rights. They have whatever rights are provided by their government.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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Read more carefully...

Article 16
1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.


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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, well that is just dandy. I am sure a Congressional hearing is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of a national security leak.


Art, what are you talking about? The CIA has asked the Justice Dept. to look into it (sound familiar?). There's no "congressional hearing".



Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders. They have whatever rights are provided by their government.

Once again, when the US signs an international treaty, it becomes US law. We have signed more than treaty that says we prohibit the cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment of prisoners. Just because the current administration decided to interpret that in a manner inconsistent with the actual treaty, and say that these prohibitions don't apply to "enemy combantants" doesn't change our obligation to common decency.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I just an not knowledgeable on our various treaty obligations, so, sorry, I can't engage there.

I was referring to the letter from Frist and Hastert authorizing a bicameral Congressional committee to examine the leak. Just dandy.

Yes, sir. The country is going broke from ever increasing government spending and a demographic time bomb with SS, Medicare and Medicaid. Our reaction, let's investigate some noncrimes and start prosecuting whoever didn't jump through the public political hurdles. This looks no different than Chirac fiddling while France burns.

Tell me, why do we know that the CIA asked for an investigation? That is classified. An investigation is fine, but we should never hear a word about it.

This is just an ongoing massive deflection.

As usual, the media misses the story.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I just an not knowledgeable on our various treaty obligations, so, sorry, I can't engage there.


Art, do you think I have a masters in polticial science, or that I work for the State Department, or have some special knowledge not available to you? A few minutes of internet searching reveals the treaties in question, and the rationale behind the McCain amendment. Do the tiniest amount of homework (shit, I cut and pasted the relevant sections in this thread) so you can join the discussion. But if you insist on the policy of intellectual laziness, I'd kindly ask you to refrain from making comments like "Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders"

Tell me, why do we know that the CIA asked for an investigation? That is classified. An investigation is fine, but we should never hear a word about it.

How did we know that the CIA asked for an investigation into Plame's leak? I don't think asking for an investigation is classified. If you think a House/Senate intelligence committee investiation in parallel is a waste of time, well I'm not sure I'll argue with you, but I hardly find it a reason to get all worked up.

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I have read the stuff you cut and pasted, but reading selected portions is just not sufficient. It is not obvious how these things get interpreted or that the provisions you quote are not modified elsewhere in the document or misleading out of context.

I am just ignorant about these things, and I will not try to fake my way through it. I would rather just concede one point for you. You really need to learn to take yes for an answer.

Yes, the CIA referral in the Plame case was classified. We heard about it because it was leaked.

Let's entertain the public with more show investigations and show trials. It sure beats trying to deal with serious issues. Maybe they will forget we are going broke.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, but I don't think a Cliff notes version of treaties that fill books just doesn't cut it.

I do appreciate the company though.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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AND for a special bonus, you said it better than I could.

Time to change signatures!

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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Art, the Convention against toture is really quite short, and the language is crystal clear. If you dont trust my excerpts, it wouldn't be that hard for you to peruse the whole thing.

But if you really are conceding the point, I guess there's no point in me aguing it further. Still, usually concessions are phrased more like "OK, I see" rather than "I wont engage you - selective quotes don't tell the whole story"

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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I am violating LR rules. I should loudly maintain my point of view despite ignorance of the topic at hand.

Sorry. Hope I don't get banned for the infraction.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Last week I asked Vitus to provide a Cole's notes version to a long link so I didn't have to strain myself and read too much and now I get someone to argue my replies AND for a special bonus, you said it better than I could.

Lazy Prot.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry guys. I hear only one side of the story and I don't know enough to have an independent intelligent opinion.

I already apologized for not blustering through despite not knowing what I am talking about per LR tradition. No need to pile on.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"Don't other people, unfortunate as they may be not to have been born here, have rights too or is it that American rights trump all other countries because we have the most wealth?"

I am not talking about natural rights. This issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law. (Also some debate about whether it IS a change, but I digress.) With respect to US law, there is, for the most part, a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. Until Joe Al Qaiada is paying US taxes and otherwise accepts the benefits and burdens of US citizenship, he is not entitled to the same rights.
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Re: The CIA's Secret Prisons [Tri N OC] [ In reply to ]
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I am not talking about natural rights. This issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law.

The issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law which would allow the US to violate the natural human rights of other people. (Or maybe US citizens as well. Do we know that there aren't or won't be US citizens in these secret prisons?)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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