You live under a bridge in Scandinavia right?

This of going to be awesome

Agreed.

ha ha haa.

Let me tell you about this pot of gold I found at the end of a rainbow.

---

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Very first post!

Wow.

First post, huh? 2/10 on the troll. Would have been a 1, but you already snagged a few in your net.

I don't think it should be a problem unless he's planning to wear a gorilla suit.

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Less is more.

I haven't seen any rules that state this would be illegal and I have seen it several times at races.

Your serious right?

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IP never used here before. after a careful vetting, i'm going to call this legit.

you people are free to educate fastkitty. be nice to the kitty.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No, her serious left.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I have seen it several times and I have never heard of anyone getting a penalty or DQ.

Oh wow. You and h20fun must have the same moral compass. So since everyone else is doing it, you must think it's ok to cheat as well right?

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From USAT rulebook: http://www.usatriathlon.org/...isport/rulebook.aspx

d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

Do you draft on the bike because everyone else is doing it too?

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Assistance_2100.html and http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Assistance_3245.html

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You are saying that you have been on multiple podiums and don't know some of the basic rules. OK, that's fine. Consider yourself being educated. If your husband relinquishes his own race ambitions to go at your pace then you'll run the risk of a DQ. Good for you to come here and ask to clear things up in advance. If you had to ask, you probably had an inkling that it might be illegal.

Anyway, good luck with your KQ. You don't need your husband to help you. Just follow your powermeter, nutrition plan and run pacing plan. Between a powermeter and GPS, you have better pacing than what your husband can provide anyway. At best he is redundant, at worst he gets annoying hovering over you for the entire time.

Ok. I see the reference to pacing, but I assumed that was from outside assistance, not someone in the race.

Unauthorized assistance means anyone in the race or outside of the race.

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let me tell you a story about a man named Lionel, a colleague Barrie and the swim..........

use the search function on the right....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH QUOTE OF THE NIGHT!

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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=-1; and this thread too http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ders%20swim;#5729240

Start reading this thread to find out what happens when an athlete paces another athlete in the swim. Then, ask yourself how you feel after realizing their reputation is now tarnished

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Only if he wears a gorilla costume.

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Chris
*********************
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
― Hunter S. Thompson,

As long as he doesn't punch you when you're coming through the finishing chute, I don't see why a pacer in a gorilla suit is any problem.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

If the gorilla wears Newtons, then we have a problem......

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Only if said Gorilla is heel striking!!!!

http://www.ironman.com/...mp;l=S#axzz3r3qD9Jos

Looks like he (Sanders) finished 14th overall. Please show me where he was DQd.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I never said he was DQed

---

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How does it go on courtroom TV drama???

Objection!

Sustained - Asked and answered (hint, post 16).

Dang. My popcorn was just about ready to eat -_-

---

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Right, right.... Didn't you used to be somebody else here on ST and got laughed off the forum? Brooks something or another.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Nope. I've never been anyone else but myself

---

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I don't think you can or will be DQ'd for it. I know of no rule
that forbids people who know each other from cycling and running
near one another in the manner that you mentioned. I'm sure it's done
all the time with the 14 to 16 hour crowd.

I think it would be very hard to enforce a rule
against this since the officials would have to know
who knows who and study hours of video to establish
that they were near to each other.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

happens all the time mainly with women on the cusp of a KQ. Saw it last year at Arizona and again at Texas this year. If he pays an entry fee and "races" I dont see how they could ever prove you were "paced" by him

It was good enough for Belinda Granger and I think Van vlerken so why not

So the answers are; yes it would be illegal to pace you, yes you can get DQ'd for it. However it seems like it goes on a lot without penalty, so it's up to you whether you want to cheat your way to Kona. If you you do, then why stop at being paced? You may as well draft a bit as well as you probably won't get caught for that either and if they don't have enough timing matts down on the course....

What about Chrissy Wellington at kona a few years back? She got a co2 cartridge from a fellow athlete. Is that illegal?

Mildly grey area, but CW only received equipment from a fellow competitor, but she changed the flat herself, so it's OK.

If Keat had stopped and changed the inner tube for CW too, well I think she would have been in breach of the regs.

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-------------------------------
�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

how about people read the previously referenced thread where the head referred opines on the legality of both the instances referenced here - pacing and the provision of a CO2 cartridge

its all about grey areas. so the original poster wants to understand whether she can use someone who's faster than herself to improve the outcome of her own race, so that individual I assume would be slightly in front of them on the swim, bike and then the run, and might comment and say things suck it up, lets go........

meanwhile, her competition might, for example, choose to race as an individual, managing their own race, having to motivate themselves and deliver the result on their own

if you read what she'd proposed out loud to yourself, does it sound ok? "I want to use my husband to pace my race to allow me to Kona qualify"............

I know everyones been told to play nice, and abiding by that, seriously, given its a "individual" sport, does it sound ok (setting the rules aside for a moment)?

4 lug or 5?

---

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Adam Savage

Talking from personal experience? ;)

---

Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

No, it doesn't sound OK. I agree it is against the spirit of the rule, no discussion, and on the bike, she may get a penalty for first offence. On the run, I have never heard about somebody paced by another competitor (not an external person) and being penalised. How do you prove it? Who has never latched on somebody who ran just a touch faster that you would and increase your pace this way? I know I have, last time this year in Roth, and then paid back when my 'pacer' slowed down by getting in front on doing the pacing. Now the question is 'is there a difference between pacing by chance and on purpose?'. I would say yes. One is the natural dynamics of the competition, the other is planning to play with the rules. By the way, why would he not pace on the swim too? That's another recent hot topic...

---

Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

lets call it opportunistic pacing, if you are in a race and can latch on to someone then assuming you don't know them, or even if you do but you are racing them, that is legit, if however they a subjugating their pace to allow you to hang on to their heels, then that is just not cricket........

There is a woman from Phoenix who qualified for Kona at IMAZ last year with her boyfriend doing the entire race with her.

That seemed to be the crux of the matter from the discussion of the Sanders/Chrabot debacle, with regard to both the rules and the moral standpoint.

At the front of every race, the leaders are essentially sticking together and pacing each other to some degree, but the line is crossed when someone abandons their own race for the benefit of another competitor.

If you have him pace you during training, sounds like you could KQ on your own during the race.

an Aussie pro made a career from doing that. Quite hard to stop it.

Honest question - are you really asking if this is legal or asking if this is enforced? My guess is that you've seen it too many times in your age and this is your way of shining a light on the subject.

With this posting this thread could be locked. Slowman could just copy this posting and make it sticky just to remind people how it works and what is acceptable.

I was wondering if someone was going to mention this...I remember having a conversation with a pro back about 7 years ago who said this happened quite a bit (not with these two but with husband and wife 'teams'). As far as the AG crowd, I have seen this first hand in just about every Mdot race that I have done with the exception of the 70.3 worlds in Draftwater. It is what it is...

Last year at IMAZ we had a hysband pace his wife right to a Kona slot. He even put his hand on her back and helped push her up the hill on Curry during the run. A few of her competitors saw it and were not happy, I received multiple messages about it.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

thanks :)

its on fire here today, not sure where to turn without running in to controversial threads........

Who's to say he's abandoning his race. Maybe he's not in peak form and only wants to participate and his participation effort lines up with her race effort? If this sorry of thing is a dq worthy crisis then 1/3 of the pack will be dq'd between friends doing it with friends for fun to the last stragglers coming down with an entourage cheering. Can two people from different Age groups pace off each other without being dq'd since they are not directly competing for a KQ?

There seems to be a general consensus here that this is wrong and I agree. The fact is, I've paced off people in every race I've ever done. The question becomes how do you write the rule to allow what we all do and eliminate what the OP is talking about. Mark Allen paced off Dave Scott all day in the Iron War.

statistically, honestly, what are the odds that husband and wife rock up and she's in "on the cusp of qualifying form" and he's in "amazingly just enough form to be on the cusp of his wifes qualifying form"

the difference between taking a slot or depriving someone of a slot because you effectively worked as a team to the finish and "individual effort" is the word "INDIVIDUAL"..........

seriously people, if you want to work as a team - do a relay, go bowling, if you want to qualify off the back of your husband, partner, team mate, knock yourself out but you might as well "do a julie" (search form to right for anyone that has any questions on "doing a JULIE") OR you can refer back to my earlier post about a man called Lionel and his most recent racing strategy........

This brings up an interesting point. There really are two "events" going on at the same time amongst the age groupers at an IM. The first is the actual race. People who want to stand on the podium, and even get a Kona slot. These people are racing for something more than just being there for the event.

The other event is a participatory one, where people are just trying to cross the finish line. I can guarantee you that if you polled every person there, you would get a definitive answer which camp he or she is in. The people in the race camp perhaps should be under a slightly more strict interpretation of the rules. Pacing someone to a Kona slot is different than pacing someone to a finish. I am not at all advocating that we should have separate classes of starters or somehow formally codifying that in the rules, but the reality is that one is much worse than the other.

If your compete within the rules I don't see anything wrong with it.

From what you appear to be describing...him swimming with you, riding outside the draft zone and then running side by side, I don't see any rule infractions.

I say go for it.

jaretj

Also take a little EPO, as you won't get caught for that (stop 2 weeks before the race).

All forms of cheating are a sign of weakness. Why can you not pace yourself? Do you not have a Garmin? Why does some big strong man need to tell you how fast to run and bike?

wolfpackTri

Hi there Kitty, welcome to the forum. I'll try to answer your question constructively: what you suggest may not be against the letter of the rule but it is certainly against the spirit of the rule. This is meant to be an individual sport. I certainly wouldn't use "others are doing it" as justification.

Ask yourself this.

if you ran your own race, and were beaten to a kona spot by someone being purposely pace the entire race, how would you feel? Especially if you lost your spot by a matter of seconds.

I lost a spot by less than 30 secs couple of years ago, to someone being paced by someone riding a bike beside them for most of the run. it doesn't feel good.

this is freaking hilarious.

read dev paul's response, in post 17. or the lionel sanders thread, linked to somewhere in here. or my article about the lionel sanders case. it's about whether you are racing for your highest possible place or whether you've abandoned the ambition to do so in order to help another to his or her best possible place. neither mark nor dave had abandoned his ambition for his best possible place. this is embedded in ironman's rules for pros. it is implicit in both the USAT rules posted here and ironman's AG rules.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

*whew*....was hoping somebody would appreciate it!!

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

The problem with the pacing rule is unless someone admits to it, or it's extremely blatant, you just can't prove it. I think they have to have the rule on the books but they will (and should) have a hard time enforcing it. If you take it too literally then if you bike or run behind anyone at all then you are being paced. If that said person is not in the race, then it's a no brainer as it's outside assistance. If it's someone else in the race, what gives you the right to say how fast they should or shouldn't run/bike? It's way to open ended.

Bring it to the attention of the race director. Surely he/she passed or was passed by some people and they could serve as witnesses.

I was curious if it is legal since it clearly isn't enforced, I have seen it happen too many times.

What was the outcome?

She qualified and raced in Koba this year. The other AG women never logged a protest as it would have been a waste of time. He literally pushed her up a hill!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

How exactly do you plan to "prove" pacing? Should there be a rule that you can't be near the same person/people on course for more than a set number of minutes?

It appears to be technically illegal, yet rarely enforced. If I saw you and your husband employing this tactic I would think less of you and I would not want to share in any part of your triathlon life. You decide.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

I understand the distinction but that distinction isn't addressed in the rules. I just question if it's fair or practical to enforce an implicit rule.

In the 2000's ITU LD world's Italy's Alessandro Vannacci paced Daniela Locarno on the bike to finish 3rd Elite Women (!); I don't recall any blame about that

Regardless of whether this is technically right or wrong (arguments already presented) the hallmark *generally* of people that I see who KQ is the ability to pace and execute correctly on the day�.and day in day out through out the year.

Basically I am struggling to figure out why you think this is a good idea, if your husband is faster but is willing to sacrifice his race for you�how do you know he is a better athlete in terms of execution? I am usually faster than my SO but she is a much better athlete.

You are (based on a few sentences above) missing the last piece of the puzzle�IE picking up pennies in terms of nailing the race properly. You need to HTFU and work on your internal clock and RPE�or if you are completely lacking the desire to execute correctly then buy a PM and have it do that job for you during the race.

Maurice

It's still wrong.

"I understand the distinction but that distinction isn't addressed in the rules. I just question if it's fair or practical to enforce an implicit rule."

it's an explicit rule. unauthorized assistance. it formally bans pacing. implicit in this is the difference between two people running alongside each other who are both in the heat of battle, versus one person not really in the heat of battle, simply in the race for the purpose of helping another to a high place.

the pro rules take what is already in the rules and further amplifies it. further explains it. but it's in the rules, has always been in the rules, and triathlon's original generation of racers never faced the need to explain what unfair looks like. today we need to further codify unfair because a significant subset of the current generation of triathletes doesn't know unfair on its face, and has to have it explained.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Kitty,

Please don't listen to the nonsense and dribble in this post.

One time I had the ambition of winning a race. I had a good swim, and I knew a stud biker was behind me. I knew that the race would be won off the bike, by whoever was with his pack in T2.. So I pedaled a comfortable pace and waited it out. Soon enough I heard the woosh of his disk wheel, and I dropped behind him at a legal distance. We picked up a few other riders along the way. We were all using him as a pacer.

In T2 we set off on the run as a pack. We all took turns setting the pace. Eventually, the winner broke free and won by a minute or so.

Was he DQ'ed for pacing? Of course not. He was RACING. And what we all did that day, is no different than what you plan to do.

Don't draft. Don't bandit.. But pace all you want! It is no different than a PM and GPS watch anyway.

Best of luck!!

Austin

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Austin Hardy -

ITU is fundamentally different than Ironman-style racing.

should a coach be able to provide a similar service? could be a new potential option that coaches provide to get AG athletes to KQ.

Yes, it is different. In your scenario no one (apparently) subordinated their own race to help someone else. (In which case one person was not racing).

Dan,
The original generation of racers might also consider PM and GPS as unfair, right? Or $12K racing bikes.. I have been in and out of triathlon for 20 years now. The changes in technology are just as big as the changes in philosophy. To vilify one, and embrace the other is an interesting stance. (Only referring to the context of "Triathlons original generation")

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Austin Hardy -

You don't seem to understand the rules on pacing and unauthorized assistance. What you did in your race is perfectly legal because no one specifically had a plan to mess up their own race for the benefit of another. If you and I have an agreement that I will pace you because I am faster than you, that is unauthorized assistance and is also unethical.

Finding a group of people on the bike and the run that are similar power output and run speeds and using them for pacing is not unauthorized assistance.

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Bryan,
I understand your POV, and in some circles, I might even argue on your side of the room. But, I can also see Kitty's side, and lately have a hard time with the "holy rollers", and 'though shall not" types that seem to be dominating this, and other online forums.

WTC has made this a pay to play sport. If our girl (Kitty), and her man want to double down the registration fee and the training that goes with it, then I have no beef with their intents or execution. Its good for the growth of the sport, right!!?!?

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Austin Hardy -

so you are unable to see the distinction between what you describe and "I am racing in an individual sport, my husband is faster than me, so I will follow him for the duration of the event in order to improve my performance as opposed to improving my performance through the act of competing against my peers"

Words fail me.

You describe a race tactic, she describes working as a team where effectively the clock stops for the slowest person in the team. you can see the distinction right?

I pay to taxes to drive my car on the road just like everyone else and approach a stopped school bus. If I pass the school bus and I don't hit any kids, is that okay?

Where does one draw the line on ethics? If I work at a bank and take a penny from every bank transaction and put it in my own bank account, is that okay just because it's a penny?

You are either an ethical person or you're not. Once you go down the road of rule interpretations to benefit you, you've lost your moral compass

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This. Using other people who are competing against you for pacing (even legal drafting distances) is simply smart race tactics. Those people are trying to beat you, and you are trying to beat them. All of you might finish faster, but in the end only one of you in that group is going to win the prize.

Having someone "throw" a race to pace is against the rules explicitly as "outside assistance". The distinction should be perfectly obvious.

For what it's worth, pacing someone like this is not a shoe-in even when trying to go significantly slower than one is capable of. Even if the guy was capable of a 9:30 finish but was only trying to go 11:00, that isn't at all a guarantee he would be capable of executing an 11 hour race. Just "going slower" is not as easy as it sounds when you have a full IM to traverse.

In This Thread: A *LOT* of people who are on their taper.

Get your caffeine folks...If you can't see the sarcasm, there is a problem.

There are plenty of people on Slowtwitch who would do exactly what she is wanting to do. Tapering does not give you an excuse to be an unethical cheater. Yes, I can detect sarcasm.

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It is completely different. There is a massive and clear distinction between pacing off of someone who is racing (completely legal, assuming that you don't illegally draft) and having someone pre-arranged, planned, and coordinated to pace you.

Pacing off of someone who is racing is not against the rules. Pacing someone is - very clearly - against the rules. If you coordinate to have a pacer out there you are equally complicit in the violation of this rule.

Again - it is completely different. PM's and GPS are not against the rules. Having a pacer explicitly is. If they were no different, why does the OP even want a pacer? Why not just use a PM and a GPS watch? It is because having a pacer who is working to help you confers a huge, and explicitly illegal, advantage.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

I really don't see where pacing gives any advantage. Maybe the OP's husband would be more a hindrance than help. Who knows. Plenty of pacers out there anyways

One race at NOLA we were told we would be penalized for a GPS watch giving an audible beep. Pacing violation. Yeah whatever

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Pacing gives a HUGE psychological advantage as well as physiological because it keeps you from exceeding your limits

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What you described is called racing. What she's describing is called cheating.
We're not talking about someone just trying to finish a race here... she's talking about getting a Kona slot.

Do you think she's going to "accidentally" run into her husband during the bike and then stick together. How does this play out in practical terms.. Does the husband sit around in transition and waits for her to get there? Does he ride 12mph while she catches up on the bike? Does he carry her nutrition too? Helps her fix a flat? Think about it.

Very good question.

I would love for my wife to qualify for Kona, what a thrill that would be, but I would never agree to pace her through an IM. Do it on your own.

I am genuinely curious - how would you interpret "Kitty's side"?

What I hear when I read her post is - "I know that pacing confers an advantage and I want that advantage, because I am close to KQ. I have seen others do it and it makes me mad because they are getting an advantage that I am not. If someone else is going to do it, then I should be able to do it. But something in my gut doesn't exactly feel right about this, which is why I am going to ask others in a public forum. I really hope they tell me 'yes, that is just fine' because then my conscience will be clear."

Perhaps you read it completely differently.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Ha, well I don't agree it really makes anyone faster to have someone pacing them or have an audible alarm on their watch beep every 8 minutes or whatever.

I'm married to an elite athlete, and I think it would be fun to race together side by side. Yes it would slow me down a bit. And she would most likely win her age group either way. In fact she tends to bury herself and ends up in a bad way after the race. I even considered racing by her side at IMFL to keep her in check, make her go slower. She would have likely won her age group. But alas the GI bug hit her at midnight on race am, so no racing for either of us.

What the OP described is clearly illegal according to the rules. But should it be prohibited for friends or spouses to race side by side no matter the intention?

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I'm gonna start a new business. People will pay me to "pace" their arch nemesis and then they'll get DQ'd for unauthorized assistance. Imagine them trying to argue with the judge that they don't know the person who is admitting that they are pacing them.

or pace them to blow up.

Lets elevate the stakes one step:

What if TO decided to "throw" his race and paced Rinny to a Kona win in the manner exactly described here?

I think we all know the answer...

As other have stated, this is technically a grey area when it comes to the USAT rules, with that said it is 100% against the spirit of the rule. Personally I think there is a huge difference between "opportunity" pacing off of your fellow competitors (i.e. someone in your age group passes you on the run and you stay with them) vs. purposely having someone do the entire race alongside you for the sole purpose of helping motivate, encourage you, and provide advice along the way with regards to nutrition or any obstacles you may encounter.

The first example of opportunity pacing is what you do in a race... Dave Scott v. Mark Allen or Chrissie v. Rinny... it's tapping into everything YOU have physically and mentally to achieve your goals. Your motivation is internal in your heart and mind - your competitors aren't trying to encourage you beat them it's you versus them, who is physically and mentally stronger.

The second example is essentially hiring a better athlete, who just happens to be your husband, to pace you so you can get an extra advantage over your fellow athletes to enable you to reach your goal... which I'm assuming you don't think that you can reach on your own and that's why you want his help. You would be enlisting assistance externally to motivate you and encourage you through every second of the day.... does that sound like you might be gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors? Sounds like it to me... my husband couldn't pace me to a Kona slot and even if he could I would never consider asking him to because to me personally I would feel like a cheat.

Just another thing to consider - I was curious what the paratriathlete category 5 (visual impairment) rules are for guides as they are legally allowed by the rules to swim/bike/run with the athlete and figured that there had to be some measures in place to somewhat limit the benefit of having a guide that is a better athlete than another guide. Here's that the USAT rules state: "It is mandatory that only one guide of the same sex may be used throughout the race... At no time shall the guide lead or pace the athlete or propel the athlete forward by pulling or pushing... As the athlete crosses the finish line, the guide must maintain no more than the required 0.5 meter maximum separation distance and may not precede the athlete." So sounds like if you were blind and your husband was your guide then him pacing you to the finish line would be against the rules... so as a 100% able bodied athlete do you think it's okay for you to be paced?

As someone who is also chasing a Kona slot I hope you aren't in my age group. I podiumed at my last IM but missed a slot and no luck with a roll-down... so I'll be training smarter and harder for next year. I hope that you reconsider and decide to play on an even field. I think most would agree that in the spirit of the sport you should compete for a Kona slot on your own accord and not by following your husband there.

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Elisha
"Triathlon doesn't build character. It reveals it."

Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dude. You owe me a new laptop. There's now coffee all over my keyboard and screen.

hahaha!

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Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.

No. Just like your YouTube videos? You must be a seriously unethical person. I knew you would come here and post exactly what you posted. Bring on the arguments because I know it's coming. Points for keywords such as Velotron, 10 speed bikes, copyright infrignment, YouTube videos, CompuTrainer, and the "why does it matter" quote.

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Prove it. How can you get inside someone's body on race day and know they are holding back solely to pace someone or perhaps they are in pain, having a bad day, know they missed their expectation and have just thrown in the towel. Is it against the rules to not race to your full potential? Even if they go that route, how can you prove it? Surely you don't expect even pro's to put up top performances every time?

This is in inherently poor rule that has very limited chance (except perhaps under blatant circumstances) of being remotely proven.

That's correct and I feel like I need to clarify things since I might've derailed the discussion with the "spirit of" comment.

1. Ironman and USAT forbid pacing (outside assistance): it's explicit. That's the rule. Their ability to enforce it is an entirely different issue.
2. Per Dan's interpretation of the rules (see the Lionel Sander's swim thread) having the OP's husband who is "much faster" pace her would constitute him "abandoning his own ambition" at which point his pacing would be considered outside assistance.

Is what the OP suggesting against the rules? From what I've read, absolutely. Would she get caught? Unlikely. Would she be justified in doing it because she's been so close and "others are doing it"? If she's willing to venture down that moral dark alley she might as well dope because she's unlikely to get caught and others are doing it.

You may not have a beef, but there is a rule that says that this is a violation.

If you are an advocate for this rule to be changed because you think that it is silly, fine. However, that does not dismiss the rule.

Baloney. Next thing you know, I won't be able to upload copyrighted material on YouTube.

I think you're missing the point. So F**k whether the rule can be enforced or not.

Long distance triathlon is an individual endeavour, where you race your competition, throughout the event you can tactically and strategically adapt to changing circumstances to deliver the best result you can on the day.

Set aside whether its a smart rule, stupid rule, or even if the rule exists at all. If you are paced in the event, is it any longer an Individual event? No, it has become a team event.

So, knock yourselves out, all those that are considering it, doing it, might do it, have done it, its fine and you can rationalise it anyway you want, but if you Kona Q'd, you didn't do it on your own, and if you beat someone to qualify by a margin that you otherwise would not have had had it not been for your team mate you f**king cheated. It might not be provable but "you did a Julie" and you can rationalise your performance in much the same way that she did, you can delude yourself in to thinking you played within the rules, but collect your medals, take your slot but know you cheated.

Big difference. Copyrighted material is well defined. Pacing, while it can be easily described is not. If you really want to get rid of pacing then you need to run it like a time trial and have everyone in isolation. Once you start to intermix participants there it's inherently unenforceable.

On the run, I have never heard about somebody paced by another competitor (not an external person) and being penalised. How do you prove it? Who has never latched on somebody who ran just a touch faster that you would and increase your pace this way?//

Since you have never heard of it, it doesn't happen? I believe there are several stories and race coverage articles in the archives that point out this exact thing happening. I know because I covered a pretty big race where a brother dropped back to pace his sister in the run, and since it was a brutal headwind, also to give here a nice draft. Some husband and wife teams who also got busted for this, and had to shut down the practice.


And to the OP, yes it is illegal and immoral. If you are a KQ bubble person, then there are plenty of people around you to pace off of. You don't need your own personal illegal pacer, just get faster and use the dozens on the course that would otherwise be around you. And yes, you likely would not get caught, except for the fact that you just came on here and blabbed it to the whole world. You may think you are anonymous, but believe me, their are people here who might already know who you are, or at least have narrowed it down to a few possibilities. Next step would to just do a search on husbands and wives in the same race with a KQ, and that is a very small number. You wouldn't get away with it now, so just play nice and train either harder or smarter..

change your wording to "my husband and I train with each other, push each other and enjoy each others company for grueling 12 hours of a triathlon" and you'll be just one of the many many who do it all the time.

Seriously, other than public shaming of pro triathletes, has this ever been enforced?

nothing like providing advanced notice of a possible twitch hunt, there'd be forensic photo analysis, the timing guy is here, on the last letsrun one I think they do a photo time-lapse of the event - its game over for this plan..........

exhibit A - JM - there were white papers written about her............

Knew I should have used pink font.

So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated?

---

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So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated? //

Is it your spouse, best friend, or someone you know who you made arrangements with prior to the race to pace you, and you only? Yes you cheated..

Did you just jump on someones feet that came by and have no idea who it is, and no prior arrangement for this? No you didn't cheat..


Clear things up for you?

Drafting in the swim is not against the rules. Pacing is explicitly against the rules as "outside assistance".

You can argue that there might need to be a actual (and impossible to prove) "intent" to provide pacing assistance before it gets to being against the rules.

Please re-read the thread. That example is not what this is about

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You can argue that there might need to be a actual (and impossible to prove) "intent" to provide pacing assistance before it gets to being against the rules. //

Why do you say impossible to prove when there have been numerous examples of it in past races? It might be hard to know during an event, however I noticed it in one race and it was reported live, just as the Lionel Sanders episode was on Ironman live. Now it is hard to do anything about it at the time, I give you that, but it has been proven over and over again after the fact. Just like you cannot catch someone on drugs during an event, it has to come after the race has happened.


And through this sleuthing, it has been stopped in its tracks by many people that employed this strategy, and also deterred many from even trying it..

I just don't understand why someone can't race their own race. If you need pacing to Kona qualify, then you don't deserve to go to Kona. How about working on becoming a faster athlete then cheating your way there

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It is easy to prove someone was using a pacer. It is impossible to prove the intent, unless you somehow find an email exchange paper trail saying they were planning it. Believe me, I am fully in the camp that says this is straight-up cheating and against the rules. Proving it is a different story, although sportstats certainly doesn't need "court of law" level of proof to do something about it.

It wouldn't be illegal for someone to follow the same person around all day if the person being followed didn't know about it ahead of time. I am saying it is nearly impossible to prove the actual intention of pacing vs the very unlikely scenario that two people just raced together all day.

you're not paying attention are you? see previous responses, but tactics and strategy allow you to sit on someones feet, run on their heels or ride behind them at a legal distance, what the rules don't allow you to do is sit with hubby on the beach and do all of that behind him to a Kona slot.......

"Prove it."

intent and malice are states of mind and they're used all day long in criminal and civil courts. they are routinely proved. only in triathlon do we somehow view state-of-mind as unprovable. except when we decide to. such as ironman's rule that allows suspension of an athlete for "intentional course cutting." how do you prove intent? i don't know, but ironman includes intent in its rules in this case.

over the weekend jim harbaugh tried something and failed to get away with it. michigan was penalized for "substitution with intent to deceive." how do you prove state of mind? the NCAA doesn't really care whether you consider this a problem. they invest in their officials the right to determine intent. only in triathlon do we place ourselves in this straight jacket.

certainly i think the bar ought to be high. only when it's a clear case. so, male gets out of the water, pedals at 14mph. suddenly he starts pedaling at 22mph. magically, his wife appears at that moment. i have no problem flagging that.

i also think discretion ought to be used. same example above, except it's not 14mph and 22mph, it's husband and wife striding along, 3 or 4 hours behind the last podium spot in each of their age groups. no penalty.

what's the difference? judgment. i believe in judgment. reasonableness. discretion. i believe officials, backed up by a head ref who can oversee, and cast a second set of eyes, on such a call, can be trusted to make the correct call the great majority of the time.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I am not that naive. I just said I do not remember hearing of a specific case of DQ for this reason. Not the same thing. Now if you say it has happened, I take your word for it. But either the practice is not common, or the culprits are not caught very often. And saying this does not mean condoning the practice at all.

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Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

This was my point earlier, if you are "on the bubble" yet in the majority of athletes (say 2 thirds) at IM who don't pace properly then the problem is obvious. I would rather work on execution/strategy than rely on someone else who�chances are could go slower but totally eff up pacing.

She needs to HTFU figure out internal clock/rpe or get a PM/GPS to do the job for her.

Maurice

Playing devils advocate, but if this is such a hard and fast rule why is it not in the athlete guides, and where is the penalty clearly defined? For example you know what a drafting penalty will be.
I did a key word search of the athlete guide for the last race I did, Los Cabos 2015, drafting comes up 16 times, pacing, 0. If this is a rule, it should be known.

"Illegal and immoral". This is part of why triathlon #s have stagnated and why running is booming. This moral posturing and preaching "individuality" of the event. Prepping to Go on a twitch hunt over an AG participant that is trying to win some menial award

there are a number of rulesets. it is defined. it's a variable time penalty in USAT's rules, and in ironman's athlete guide, and it's a DQ in ironman's rules for pros. if i remember right.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ok, let me rephrase it. What specific actions do you need to see to consider someone pacing/being paced as opposed to just following/ keeping up with someone (i.e. a competitor) in the race?

Specifically differentiate between pushing yourself to keep up with someone normally faster than you vs being paced?

A Kona slot is not a "menial award" to someone who has worked for years to get there by learning to pace themselves as the rules state.

Slowman wrote:

there are a number of rulesets. it is defined. it's a variable time penalty in USAT's rules, and in ironman's athlete guide, and it's a DQ in ironman's rules for pros. if i remember right.

I'm sure it is somewhere, and it should be a rule, but I can't find it in the Santa Cruz 70.3 or Los Cabos athlete guide. The 2015 Ironman competition rules also doesnt mention it, did a key word search for pacing and pace and nothing that mentions it, see here: http://www.ironman.com/~/media/e573751ff47e4f758a28565a453f79c0.ashx

"What specific actions do you need to see to consider someone pacing/being paced as opposed to just following/ keeping up with someone (i.e. a competitor) in the race?"

here are a few random ideas on this:

1. when you see an abrupt change of pace occurring at a moment when someone arrives, and you remain with that person through his or her changes of pace, and we find out afterward that it's your sig other.

2. when you keep pace with someone who is very obviously very much slower than you are based on your historic performances, and your pace adjusts to the slower person's pace.

3. when one of the above 2 cases occurs in multiple races, and you routinely end up in the same proximity with the person you're suspected of pacing or accompanying.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Should they also dq the bop that are doing it with friends and the stragglers coming in at 17h surrounded by a pack of cheerleaders

"I'm sure it is somewhere, and it should be a rule, but I can't find it in the Santa Cruz 70.3 or Los Cabos athlete guide."

all these guides and rules do mention it, specifically under unauthorized assistance. this is more explicitly spelled out, as i understand it, in the rules for pros and you wouldn't automatically find these in your athlete guide.

mind, other than in los cabos, ironman's rules are supplemental to (in most cases) USAT's rules. only in certain cases do ironman's rules supplant and replace USAT's rules.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Should they also dq the bop that are doing it with friends and the stragglers coming in at 17h surrounded by a pack of cheerleaders"

asked and answered.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I stand corrected, found it, although that last sentence may confuse the matter.

This is an individual endurance event.
Teamwork as a result of outside assistance,
which provides an advantage
over single competitors, is not
allowed. Individual support vehicles or
non-athlete escort runners will result
in disqualification. A non-athlete
escort runner includes athletes who
have withdrawn from the race, have
been disqualified or have finished
the race. Supporters of any type may

NOT bike, drive, or run alongside
the athlete, may not pass food or
other items to athlete and should
stay completely clear of all athletes
to avoid the disqualification of the
athlete. It is incumbent upon each
athlete to immediately reject any
attempt to assist, follow, or escort.
It IS permissible for an athlete who
is still competing to run with other
athletes who are still competing.

Clearly you aren't detecting it, because my implication was that people are cranky. You know...tapering makes you cranky? Cranky people don't see jokes? You are demonstrating my point. Go eat some carbs or get some caffeine or a hug or something. That joke was a gimme....just like this thread.

I am a HUGE advocate of adding a 3-meter running rule to the run portion to ensure nobody is getting an unfair advantage. We will also have to put in a "no talking" rule so runners don't try talking at the 15 mile mark and create packs.

I caught your sarcasm in the post. I just didn't acknowledge it

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I guess I should appologize...I figured this was a troll post as it seemed really silly. Just because of my mood, I saw all of the responses as borderline.

...It came across as "Should I tie my competitors shoes together?"

I can see the issue, and I see some people blatently wanting to sabotage the spirit of competition with it.

I also come from the school that they should take away the "No drafting" rules altogether because they add so much confusion and a spirit during the competition to "edge" and circumvent the rule altogether.

In order to make pacing an unfair advantage, you would have to go to even more ridiculous lengths to do something about it. That is why I feel that "No drafting" rules are silly.

So Sorry for being so snarky. My post wasn't supposed to appear as a direct response to you. There is a lot of tongue-in-cheek in here. I saw it as tounge-in-cheek, but I can see how it could come across as supporting stupid people.

I probably shouldn't have come in here.

I just wanted to reprint this, because it almost perfectly captures the argument that we have been having in here, on and off, for the last month.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Yep. Luckily I only see this on ST, and not at any races I have ever done.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If I missed Kona by one slot to somebody that had a spouse or friend pacing them I would be absolutely furious. That's two against one and total bullshit.

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----------------------------------------------------------
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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

If I accept your premise that Tri has stagnated relative to running (don't know how you measure that and am not interested in arguing that point here), the reasonable explanation would be that there are much higher barriers to entry than running. It is much more expensive and more difficult, takes more time and skill to prepare, etc. I have a hard time believing it is because of cultural differences in the degree of purity that adherents expect. Have you been over to Let'sRun recently? This group is extremely forgiving and accepting compared to that crew. I say all this as someone who considers himself primarily a runner, races his bikes sometimes (poorly), and used to force himself to swim so he could race a couple of tri's. I am far from a lifelong triathlon purist. I just happen to think that the intent of the rule in question is very clear and easy to understand (even if difficult to enforce).

More importantly, complaining about triathletes "preaching individuality of the event" seems to imply that you do not think non-draft triathlon is an individual event. Is that correct?

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Settle down.......Look, I'm not disagreeing and I am sure as hell not supporting the OP....but the way you phrased it as "an individual event" leaves room for the exact interpretation I just presented to you. hence the reason I asked for clarification.

If I am on someone's feet, it is no longer "an individual" effort....your terminology.

---

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I guess you didn't expect so many responses, opinions and arguments about your first post? Don't worry, you are now famous in ST ;)

PS: pink font here means it's a joke or tongue in cheek. Now, I may be shot down for incorrect representation of ST etiquette...

---

Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

Maybe, if she would just give us her and her husband names and what races they plan on doing, we can all just email Ironman ahead of time. When the RD shows up at T1 and DQ them both before the Ironman or 70.3 even starts it will send a message to all you are or have done this in the past.

This is were a published list of reason for DQ and/or violation would be nice. All RD should post a DQ or list of violation along with finish times to put in athletes heads what is right or wrong not just what is legal or illegal.

What is right and what is wrong. I think that is the biggest problem here. My old boss once told us if you have to ask a question or think about something twice the old are it is wrong.

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My old boss said do not ask the question, you might not like the answer. Always better to ask for forgiveness.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You could have asked "Can my husband pace me to a Boston Marathon Qualifying time?" . There would
be no popcorn involved.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I really can't stop laughing every time you post. If your boss told you to do something unethical, it sounds like you would do it. Are you just one of those passive excuses for men? Or are you someone who can actually think through things and stand up for themselves? There is no way in hell I would ever violate my ethics for a job. If I was told do not ask a question, you might not like the answer then my response would be "You either answer my question, or I'm not doing the job"

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The whole intent thing is very interesting.

Years ago, I was competing in an IM race. An acquaintance that owned a local bike store, was one of the course Marshall's. Thanks for volunteering, we need volunteers. He'd raced Kona a bunch of times and lived and breathed tri.

I had a shocker of a day. Super windy day on a very challenging course. My back gave way (broken back several times) and I suffered like a rented mule. I ended up walking virtually all of the marathon :-(. I was walking at about the 35km mark when a colleague that had waited for hours for me to show up, walked beside me for a while. I'd say he walked beside me for about 100metres or so. He was asking how I felt, whether I'd make the cutoff and stuff like that. The Marshall met us, walked with us for a while (200m?) and then said to my colleague, if you keep walking with him, I'll DQ him for being paced.

There was no intent of pacing, and certainly no benefit to me by him talking to me. It was probably a net drawback since I was wasting energy chatting to him.

While I believe 'intent' needs to be discussed, addressed and is important, as part of our moral contract, it is like many things in life, that it's a double edged sword.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

We wrote government contract, so if it was wrong or illegal it might time in jail

---

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Yes, I think Richard Nixon, Rod Blagojevich, and Elliott Spitzer had that philosophy also, to name a few. Worked out well.

There are unlimited Boston Qualifier slots. Getting one via cheating doesn't take one from somebody else. The opposite is true for Kona. Teaming up with somebody else to pace you directly damages another competitor's rewards.

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----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

h2ofun also has an interesting way of 'discussing' things online, he basically stops responding if anyone has an opinion that he can't counter with his brand of BS.

Here are some of his thoughts on 'individual sports'. He clearly has absolutely no understanding of the topic, or is deliberately being a troll.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5735523#5735523
"Why do so many keep trying to say this is an individual sport. Never has been, never will be. The rules do not support this.

If it were individual, there would be no swim drafting, no mass starts.

There would be no bike zone as today which does allow some legal drafting.

If you started a sport and say it was going to be 100% individual, no way would you end up with the set of rules we have today. "

I'm starting to wonder if he is a professional troll

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Not so fast. Riding in groups is not new to Kona. Macca writes about pacing in his book, "I'm Here to Win." For 2006 "I stayed with my lead group and let them do some of the work. Even though drafting is illegal in IM, there is a benefit to riding with a group. It's easier to set and keep a steady pace, so you conserve a lot of energy..." And, regarding the 2010 race, "If you're a weaker rider, you can get behind the stronger riders and let them set a strong pace for you - even as they let the very best riders set the pace for them." Seems like a well known tactic the pro's have long employed while respecting the drafting rule and which officials have acknowledged.

Tell that to the roughly 4500 people who had qualifying times for the 2016 Boston Marathon but were not accepted into the race because there weren't enough slots.

Cheating to qualify for Boston definitely takes a spot away from someone else who actually deserves it.

Moral compass and ethical boundaries.....

LOST

Irretrievably.

Ah, didn't know that. Well, running is so natural, capitalizing on it and charging people for access to it is kinda dumb anyway. Unless you disagree. Then in your mind, you're correct and I'm fine with that.

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----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

which AG?

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

Sylviane and Patricia Puntous almost always raced together. Sylviane was a bit stronger and won Kona a couple of times with
her sister's help..

I know that their rivals didn't like it but I don't recall ever hearing the term "cheating" used. I'm sure some of you Ironman historians
who have been in the sport 4 or 5 years can expound on that.

---

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Craigj is correct

An effectively unlimited amount of people can make the cut off time, but ultimately only X thousand people can toe the start line for capacity reasons, so the pack is thinned until they had a suitably small number of people and this is done by retroactively lowering the cut off. This year, only people who were more than around 2m30s faster than the official cut off got the invite.

The moral issue here is, IMO, pretty clear.
However, I think there are two conversations happening in the same thread. Some are talking about the moral issue, others are talking about enforceability and others are trying to intertwine the two. But what the hell, I'll comment anyway and risk embroilment!

We compete as individuals. That doesn't mean it's done in complete isolation, it means it's done without a team. They are mass start races and sharing the course is a part of the event. They are races, not time trials. Everyone on the course is free to use others to gauge their pace and decide their strategy. They can draft them on the swim and run, they can match speed on the bike. But those "others" must be other competitors, not team mates. I think that's very easy to understand. I find it hard to believe those saying this is complex or unclear are sincere. I think they are trying to conflate a concept of fair play/morals, the rules, and their enforceability to justify their own agenda.
I think it's pretty obvious that if you are competing you are obliged to participate alone. As Dan discussed, enforcement must be based on judgement and allow discretion

I don't think you'll ever eliminate cheating. But lets at least maintain the ideal of fairness even if we can't deliver it 100%. There will always be those that seek to cheat. More often than not they'll have convinced themselves it's justified for whatever reason; "Everyone's doing it" being the most common claim. If they cheat, they cheat, and we can only do our best to dissuade them or penalise them. Some will succeed. They wrong others and distort the results by doing so, but I would argue that we stand to do much more damage to the sport, individuals, and society as a whole, if we go the route of abandoning ideals that can't be 100% enforced or rationalising the unjustifiable just because we can't eliminate it. Better to allow a minority to fool themselves and condemn them for it than to follow suit in order to even the score and damn us all. That may sound a bit melodramatic but you get my drift. I think the same should be true in all walks of life but alas that's not the case. In politics, business, and other fields, fairness is hardly a consideration. It's just used for window dressing. However Sport, especially amateur sport, should aspire to better. We're not doing it to survive. We're doing it to test ourselves or just to enjoy ourselves. That shouldn't require us to lie to ourselves or others in the process.

If the OP wants a spot in Kona even though she says she needs to cheat to get there, I'd question what motivates her to compete in the first place!

That's not exactly true - people qualify for Boston and don't get in for not qualifying "fast enough". Regardless, in the marathon case it is not at all against the rules to pace someone. Most larger marathons have specific pacers for this purpose. Running is not triathlon, though, and in triathlon we have a specific rule against pacing. It is pretty much as simple as that.

Here is my take on this, if you are racing and ride legally in group as the pros do in Kona that is racing, hiring or paying someone entry fee just for the purpose of pacing is cheating.

Second thing, if you are going to do something in life, I don't care if it is triathlons, running, cycling or business, the minute you doubt your actions, reread something to make it say what you want or ask the question is this legal or moral you have your answer it is not.

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http://www.toughmantri.com

https://robinsonsstrengthandendurancecoaching.wordpress.com/

A good example - here, neither sister subjugated their race ambitions although they raced together.

HelloKitty's husband is apparently going to do just that, which is against the rules.

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Would someone please explain to me how a power meter or a GPS watch does not fall under the "pacing rule"? Is it expressely allowed in another subset of rules?

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Austin Hardy -

This whole discussion reminds me of similar discussions about the NBA' rule against traveling.

This is rather ambiguous. Which "pacing rule"?
I think it would be more productive if you tell us which rule you think is breached by GPS or a power meters and we go from there. I'm not aware of one but I'm not about to go through them to try and figure out where you're coming from!
On the other hand, if you're suggesting that a GPS watch or power meter isn't covered by a rule but should be, then could you please tell us your argument for it?

I would contend that Patricia knew she could not beat her sister so she helped her win by pacing her. To me
it's a very subtle difference.

Chris McCormack never had any pacing issues since nobody wanted to be around him.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

How could a race official make that 'call', though? Both athletes racing legally on the bike, neither subjugating their race ambition. Plus who would get disqualified?

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

I found the difference myself..

d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

I had missed the PERSON reference when I was reading this rule earlier.

I feel that power meters and GPS watches are a much bigger "danger" to our sport, than a couple of women (Or LS) enlisting the help of flawed humans to help them pace.

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Austin Hardy -

I don't think either should. All I'm saying is that they were not called "cheaters" back then and they should not have been..

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At first I thought this is a prank you are trying to pull off and fire the crowd up. The way this thread has gone athletes genuinely chiming in and actually discussing it got me a bit to pause and think. But no, here is what I recommend to you, why not some EPO and drafting too, cutting the course as well, I mean why not? Right, no, wrong.
Where do people like you get this idea. How do you all sleep at night. Is this money for you or is this racing for personal satisfaction of accomplishment. What accomplishment is it if you are violating the spirit and the rules of the sport.
On the final note, I am sure many have gotten away with it. But people like you are going to draw and inspire a lot more scrutiny via race photography, athlete tracker and in the future drone and GPS tracking. The sooner we adopt that technology the sooner we purge the sport of people like you.
Sleep well.

Perhaps watching every international track meet or marathon? Or every international bike race? Or Kona? Or listening to the pros and top AG'ers talk about "drafting" and pacing and "being in the move".

Lets not act so outraged.. A little bit of perspective might make you sound a little less "holy".

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Austin Hardy -

I got some time to type this morning so here we go:
track, yep in the spirit and within the rules
cycling as track, same
pros and top AGers in triathlon doing the same, yep both drafting and pacing, than talking about it, one can watch the drone footage and race photography from various IM races, yep braking rules blatantly all the time, my position relative to that is the same as I sum it up in the post above, good for them.

how about watching some ITU races?

loads of cheating, ooooop's sorry drafting & pacing going on there then

People like me get the idea from watching it happen at races. It's very common in my age group and if it is legal then I am up for giving it a try. Obviously, from the response on this forum, it is not legal so I will not do it. The rules were not clear to me and that is why I asked the question. I would not cheat and do not want to unintentionally do so.

End of thread.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

You can clarify rules by contacting WTC, Jimmy Riccitello or the Head Ref at any event (like Ed Cheatham).

I suggest direct contact with them, not by a third party...

I would just never use the word pacing. And I sure would not use a few folks getting on their holy mountain to tell you how to race. But I would also never get onto social media
and ask since you know what a few will say.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Since the use of various on-board metrics are absolutely normal for the vast majority of athletes now, I think it's reasonable to allow their use during racing. Speed and HR (whether GPS or wheel based) are almost universally used and don't confer any advantage. Power meters are less common although I expect most serious athletes have them. But once you get into picking which telemetry is acceptable and which isn't I think it's going to get complex. Personally I don't have an issue with them being permitted. I also think it would be feasible to have a blanket ban on such devices but that would have to include all bike mounted instruments as well as any watches of any sort. I'm somewhat dependent on these devices for my pacing so I'm glad to have them but I would adjust if the rules dictated it. It would likely make for less consistent and predictable race times and results which could be seen as either a positive or a negative depending on your point of view.

I would say that telemetry does not interfere with the philosophy of this being an individual event. You are simply gathering and using data. It does assist with pacing, but so do distance markers and course clocks. The point to me is whether you're relying on yourself and your equipment or if you have another person there to show you the way.

Perhaps a bit harsh? People like you..you mean people who ask questions. The OP did not and has not cheated but by merely asking the question has been essentially labelled Julie Miller the second. The fact she posted this at all means she had her doubts about the legality of pacing so she asked. Now that she knows she says she will not do it and that should be enough.

I agree, I came a bit harsh.

I would ask, even if your husband was "pacing" you, how would you know that would give you a KQ??

I think everybody is a little caught up in the emotion of the rules to realize the simple fact that nobody knows what time the first place person in their AG will get on any particular day. You're husband isn't going to suddenly be able to transport you to the front of your AG during any particular leg of the race. If you are physically capable of earning a KQ then you will do it on your own. You're husband could "pace" you for a personal best ironman (other than the fact it's against the rules), but that doesn't mean you would earn a KQ that day. Unless you two are earning first and second place in the race, you won't know until the ceremony.

to some other's points, if you know what pace you need to go, then look at your watch/power meter and go that pace? What is the difference other than the obvious rule-breaking of one versus another?

Funny. Yeah, how do they get away with that?


I subscribe to ITU live channel. Still have not figured that rampant drafting there. Usually when I feel like drafting and having a domestique, I sign up for draft legal races.

Power meters and GPS allow you to pace your own race, not someone else. Unauthorized assistance rules state that you can't hinder your own race to help someone else. That's the difference

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Power Meters and GPS Absolutely allow you to pace someone else's pace. That is the very nature of why they are here. As soon as you say "I am going to try to squeeze an extra 10 seconds out of the next mile" or "I am going to avg 10 watts more" that is no different than having somebody of that capacity right in front of you. Any time you look at your watch to determine your performance, that is no different than having somebody on a motorcycle beside you telling you what you are doing and how you should improve.

This is why WTC needs to remove all pacing/drafting rules. They are unnecessary, confusing, and create a culture of rule "edging". Most people don't even bother following the rules in the first place.

Just make races draft/pace legal and all of this would be moot.

That is not what the issue is. Unauthorized assistance is when you hinder your own race for the benefit of another. GPS and power meters do not hinder your own race

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Your definition of Unauthorized assistance is what The rule tells you it is. It is circular logic.

They do it in every single other endurance sport. 70% of the age group does it during the marathon in ironman anyways. How many people would drop out at mile 17 if that other person didn't say, "Here, I'll run with you and we'll both get to the end.". That person prevented a DNF and therefore should be penalized.

The only way to truly enforce that rule is to create a pace zone that says "runners cannot be within 3m of each other and can not speak to each other.".
But what I am saying is "So what if somebody hinders their own race?". Let them.

Thank you. You looked at the rules in advance in order to try to follow them, and when they were unclear to you, you sought clarity to make sure you were not violating them. I wish your competitors that you have seen employing this tactic were as intent on following the rules as you apparently are. Best of luck to you in snagging your KQ.

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__________________________________________________
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[replying to last post]

In the quotes on here for the rule I had not seen this preamble...

"�Pacing,� defined as making forward progress while being accompanied by someone who is not currently competing in the race, is never allowed."
(http://www.usatriathlon.org/...-assistance-34d.aspx)

Pacing here is explicitly defined as being accompanied by someone not competing. So, ignoring the ethics side of things for a moment, I don't see the actual rules violation being discussed here.

This.^^ The OP posted that she has seen others in her age group do this and then wondered about the legality of it. I suspected it was happening in my age group and this thread confirmed it. For significant others who are pacing their SO in an Ironman to a Kona slot or even more to a Kona podium place, if you think the rest of us in the age group who are also aiming for a Kona slot (and doing so without cheating) don't know that is happening and that you are getting by with cheating without others knowing, you are wrong. In some cases, those who are doing it are coaches themselves which is pathetic. That you as a coach don't have enough confidence in yourself to coach your SO to a Kona slot, and you don't have enough confidence in your SO to get there on her own power is pathetic. That, in these examples, the female getting the free tow/support around the course submits to that, is pathetic. And then you make all sorts of excuses for yourself to convince yourself that cheating in this way is not wrong.

To the OP, I echo what Dev wrote in the first page of responses. You don't need anyone, no one, including your husband to help you get your Kona slot on race day. You don't need to cheat. You are almost there. Get out there and fucking kill it and stand on the podium with your head held high that you got that slot because you are a fucking bad ass on your own.

It turns on the meaning of the word "competing". Having paid for a bib number does not necessarily mean you are competing. That is why Dan has repeatedly referred back to the concept of whether someone has "abandoned (or never had in the first place) their own race ambitions". If you are trying to do your best and they are trying to do their best, it is fine if you work together (within the other rules) to both do your best. If one party is only there to help or work for the other, they are not competing, whether they have a bib pinned on or not.

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__________________________________________________
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- Andrew Coggan

Kitty,

I'm going to answer the question asked.

No you cant do this; a) it is against the rules and b) it is ethically wrong.

Think about if you did qualify that way.... how would you feel?

I'm not near an IM podium; 5 years ago when I started I was bottom quarter then I punched through the percentiles and over the years moved through top half towards the my goals. I can have good bike splits and good run splits but I am yet to combine them into the perfect race as I need to improve my fitness and improve my execution. At some point it will come together, maybe next season, maybe in another 5 years, but when it does I will have earned my spot and will have no problem taking it.

Its funny, Rinny got chastised a few years ago for "going through the motions" during IMFL 2013. She wasn't trying her best at all. She was enjoying the race, slowing down to high 5 the crowd and moseying along. Her goal was not to race as fast as she could, it was to earn enough points.

So to play devil's advocate (don't use this post as a snapshot of my moral compass): Couldn't her husband race just fast enough to get a certain amount of AG points for the AWA system (lets assume AWA really really means a lot to him)? In the mean time, his target race pace is enough for her to place well in her gender AG.

The intent is that there's no pre-arranged teamwork in Ironman-style racing. Collaboration by convenience is OK. I did this recently. Came out of T1 and had trouble passing a guy on the bike. Realized he was the bike course record holder. Perfect! Sat on him at legal distance.

That's OK.

If we'd agreed beforehand that he'd wait up for me at T1 so I could sit behind, that's not OK.

Well if anyone knows who you really are outside of your FastKitty handle, then yes you can't have your husband pace you. If no one knows who you are and you can do this without getting caught only you are the one that knows it was not correct and only you have to look yourself in the mirror every day.

To answer your question which many have already done, no he can't pace you to KQ.

"Get out there and fucking kill it and stand on the podium with your head held high that you got that slot because you are a fucking bad ass on your own."

This was the only thing Kitty needed to hear in this thread.

So yeah Kitty!!! Good for you for coming on here and getting some clarity (about the rules -- plus what douchebags some of your fellow competitors are). Now you're going to get back out there and FUCKING KILL IT and in the end, you will be so happy that you did it on your own. Keep the hubby on the sidelines where he belongs ;)

Again, to hell with those a-holes in your AG who are blatantly getting paced.

Best of luck to you!!!

"Intent" is a non-physical thing that cannot be gauged by a third party - - such as a course Marshall.

Should they carry a lie-detector on their motorcycle?

Again... this is why I believe these rules should be eliminated all together. They are a) Not followed anyways b) Not enforceable without personal judgment and c) Opens people up to "edging" legalities and trying to find an advantage.

Again, If pacing and drafting were legal all of this conflict about judgment, higher "standards", and the need for course-psychics, would be moot.

And if there were no rules at all, then rule enforcement would be really easy.

The fact is, the rules are there because people have a certain idea in their minds about what the sport ought to be. The sport of no draft triathlon ought not to have drafting, or outside assistance.

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This is an interesting, and more complex, scenario. I appreciate that you raised it without resorting to "we can never know for certain his true intent, so it shouldn't be a rule." I think having these conversations and pushing on the edges of the hard topics improves sport.
In the scenario you describe I still call that a violation. If the pace he chose was chosen not specifically for any purpose of his own, but with the intent of helping her, it is pacing. If his finish time doesn't matter and all he needs to do is snag some points and punch a ticket, stay 10 minutes behind her all day. Or stay 10 minutes ahead. But if he selects as his pace a pace that is intended to help her do better than she would have done in his absence, he is pacing her.

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__________________________________________________
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I agree, but apparently people here are saying there should be no inside assistance, either.... for the sake of a rule. No more encouraging people. No more running beside people and spurring them on. Since this also is what the sport ought to be, either way we lose the spirit of the race.

I don't think people are actually saying that encouragement is against the spirit of the rules. But pacing is.

I'm pretty sure you understand the difference.

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Intent is gauged by third parties - in the form of judges and juries - in courtrooms every day. Judgments about intent can and do mean the difference between someone being acquitted or being convicted and spending the rest of his life in jail. No psychics needed or involved.

Your suggestion that we abandon these rules on this basis makes about as much sense as saying that Major League Baseball shouldn't have a rule against pitchers intentionally throwing at batters because we can't trust umpires to judge intent.

Wouldn't it feel so much sweeter to just accomplish the KQ on your own without resorting to cheating, whether you get caught or not?

If you get your hubby to pace you, and you FINALLY KQ... you'll know forever that you did so by breaking the rules and the spirit of the race. I don't know about you, but that would feel like I was only cheating myself. It would bug me forever and hover as an asterisk over my accomplishment.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Sure, it would make rule enforcement easier if there were fewer rules, but it would also change the nature of the sport massively. This would be most significant on the cycle where race tactics would become entirely focused on getting into a fast group on the bike. At the pointy end of the race, it would be all about making it into the attacking group and then shedding any known fast runners. It would become a road race within the triathlon. Further down the field you'd end up with pelotons within every race. you'd also end up with lots of injuries, especially if the use of tri-bars was still allowed. To say all tricky rules should be abandoned seems ridiculous to me. The willingness of a few to cheat should not dictate the whole nature of the sport that we compete in.
Let me give an example in another sport: The rules of race walking are, I suspect, pretty difficult to impose perfectly. As I understand it, you must have a foot in contact with the ground at all times. By your logic, the solution is to just drop the rule and say it's okay for both feet to leave the ground...now we have a running race.

Where the impact on the sport of simplifying the rules is not significant or detrimental then I'm fully in favour of keeping things simple. If you got rid of drafting rules in triathlon you end up with a very different event. So I disagree with you.

This.

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Who is saying that? I haven't seen anything in this entire conversation that I read as advocating that. Which comments did you read that way?

Working with someone is ok
Working for someone is not ok

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
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why does Ironman hate marriage so much?

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

If FastKitty never posted this and just did it, nobody would have ever noticed...including race marshals. How do I know? Because people do it every single race.

I'm not saying that we should abandon the rules because of this alone. I have long been a proponent to abandoning the rules BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY AREN'T BEING FOLLOWED ANYWAYS.


Perhaps where you are in the race is different, but as a solid MOP I can say that there are draft packs and run pacers in every single race I do that go unmarshalled.

Why is it suddenly my job and your job to shake my finger at other people?

And there is nothing wrong about changing the dynamic of the sport. Ironman is TOO CROWDED to be an individual race at this point. FOP will still be FOP. MOP will still be MOP. BOP will still be BOP. The only thing that changes is how quickly the race is completed. It will be much more exciting for spectators.

I never figured out if anybody in any triathlon event anywhere in the world
has been penalized for doing exactly what she asked about.

My thinking is that if a husband/wife pace raced but did not draft whatsoever
there's no way in the world that a rival would believe that there was no drafting going
on. I know I'd have a hard time believing that.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

It happened here at IMAZ last year. Husband waited for his wife to catch up on the bike. The road together and did the entire run together. He was even seen pushing her up a hill with a hand in her back. He is a 10 hour finisher but went 11 that day and she won her AG. I think a protest was logged and WTC couldn't prove it but gave them a warning.

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I finished MOP in a 70.3 with 2500 participants a little while back. I saw a few cyclists drafting. That's their problem more than it is mine. They should have some self respect and stop cheating. But I'm not going to worry about it because I'm MOP. I'm racing myself, not them.

I think you are wrong when you say the rules are simply not being followed. Some people aren't following them. I think the majority are.

You are wrong to say the only thing that changes if you abandon the drafting/pacing rules is how quickly the race is completed. That's absurd. The whole strategy changes. Fast athletes will still be fast and vice versa, but the event will be a very different one and the contribution towards results of various strengths and weaknesses will alter significantly. The advantage of strong cyclists will likely be negated and so on. It's very feasible that you will get completely different winners in a draft legal race than you would if everything was the same except that the rules remained. Draft legal races favour good swimmers and the best runners. It neutralises the bike to a great extent.
Most importantly, mid pack, it will become a race against other competitors rather than a race against yourself. Different people will have different preferences but it will, very substantially, change the whole essence of the race. Do you really think draft legal races are just quicker versions of non-drafting races? They're different animals and the bigger the numbers the more different they will be.

This is probably true. But - do you want it like this? Is this your preference?

I think that even though it happens and is unpunished, even though it MAY be rampant, I don't think it should happen. I think it goes against the spirit of the sport that I thought I was signing up to compete in. So rather than abandon the rule just because it is frequently misunderstood and difficult to enforce, I would prefer that we clarify the rule, publicize the rule, educate people about the rule, and make an effort to enforce the rule where it is clearly being violated. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I think that would at least cut down on the violations, which would improve races.

It is my impression that many people violate this rule because they don't know about the rule or understand the rule. Many others violate the rule because they perceive others doing it and don't see it being enforced, so they choose to "level the playing field" on their own. If we improve efforts to clarify, educate, and enforce, I think many of these violations will go away. Look at FastKitty, she wasn't sure so she sought clarification and guidance, and has said she will now not engage in the tactic. I think that is great and I commend her for it.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Do you understand the difference between racing in a large group of people and a pre-arranged plan to essentially hire someone to do the race as your pacer/guide? A crowded race has nothing to do with this discussion of pacing. This discussion is about someone having a personal pacer that has no other interest in the race.

Have not read through the whole thread. However, it's ironic and interesting as my wife and I have been talking, "what if's" recently.

My wife who is a former Pro triathlete is contemplating a return to long distance racing, and a possible run at qualifying for her AG for IMH in '16 or '17. She's been goading me to consider having a go at it to ( It's remote that I would do this - but play along a bit here). She'd be in the 45 - 49 AG for women, and I would be in the 55 - 59 by then (I'm 54 now). There's a good chance that she will be able to go 10:30'ish and perhaps faster. I've done some number crunching and analysis of where I'm at now and where I could be in a year or two, and looked at the times in both the 50 -54 and 55 -59 AGs for men. Some of the men in the results I see and who have KQ'd I raced against years ago and I was competitive with them. Short story - all hypothetical, but I would possibly be in the 10:30'ish range as well. I think I can do that, and I would need to that or a bit faster to guarantee the KQ - thus my wife and I, would be close to one another out on the road in the race! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

+1

I feel like every time one of these threads shows up, we need a PSA which says
"Pacing against other competitors is not the same as pacing against someone who's ambition is something other than a highest possible place on their own terms."

Yes, there's some debate to be had as to whether we can police this distinction, and another debate on whether this is a fair rule or not. However, if we know that we're already discussing the latter scenario, then it should be quite apparent that there is this distinction. And yes, it is already spelled out in the rules.