Canadians, eh? I've gotta think that at some point in the last 6 months, I have had $900 burning a hole in my pocket. If I could just log in, select 2-day shipping, and purchase I likely would have pulled the trigger.

Instead I bought a Roka wetsuit that is actually supposed to be here before the expected date. And it will probably save me more time!

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I think I remember them saying a while ago that they are going to continue with the pre-orders until they can produce enough wheels to keep up with demand.

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Small business. Not really supply and demand, more like we can afford a order now. However we can make x amount of wheels now, the next order can be bigger. They can't afford to make hundreds of wheels to much overhead at this point.

They are a small startup, my guess is they can't afford to be manufacturing wheels that may not get sold. Part of the reason they can sell at a competitive price is because they don't have the overheads of a retailer. If they were to keep stock on hand they would probably need to raise their prices to cover obsolete stock. They have been quite upfront about competing on affordability, choose two: price, performance, availability.

Not at all! If they followed Econ 101, and priced their wheels according to S&D, a set would be quite a bit more expensive. Kudos to them!

I like their format, much better then selling to everybody who wants a set and not being able to deliver in a proper time. I had a bad experience with a high demand product and ended up waiting forever to receive it, way past the projected date.

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Formely stef32

Easy, when they have an inventory on hand and you can order and have it within a reasonable time frame (say a week). Until then it's a pre-order. That's why I went with Zipps. I wanted something I could have now. I also decided I didn't like the carbon fairing design after having my hands on some HEDs. They are nice and I don't doubt the strength. I'm just afraid I'll crack the fairing and then be upset with myself and the product. I can scratch my Zipps, but cracking the fairing just isn't going to happen.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

Just out of curiosity, what should our approach to sales be in your opinion?

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

With your price point and tunnel data...you should be easily be able to get VC capital to mass produce wheels and get yourself on the map.
You are significantly curtailing your progress by doing it this way.

yeah they definitely aren't on the map...

We have increased production by 2-3 times this year. Last year we sold 1500 wheels which means we could sell between 3000-4500 wheels this year. Growth at this stage of the game is a fine balance between being aggressive and wise. Being too agressive could result in a warehouse full of products we can't sell at the end of the year. That's a position a new company does not want to be in.

We've had a dozen or more offers for VC capital but we have turned them down. Our reasoning is we are on track to grow 2-3 times this year while maintaining 100% ownership in our business. In my opinion, that's a position a new company does want to be in.

I hope that makes sense,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Don't forget about the Sharktank....? It may be one of your options.

So...675k net...if you hit 4500 units this year...more or less. Does anyone know how many wheels are sold in the US or world? These guys have a great product...they only need more exposure.

I'm not sure where you came up with that net number, however, there are 100s of thousands if not millions of wheels sold every year.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

If you are patient and know the market will still be there in the foreseeable future that is the best way to do it. When I started out I actually had service orders before I even had the equipment or materials. Shoot, I didn't even have my business license or insurance yet. It worked for Eli Whitney, and it worked for me.

I will say, however, that about 5 months ago I was wanting some new race wheels. I would have bough FLOs, but I was too impatient to wait for the next pre-order and bought a $1600 camera, some lenses and a new bike instead. Now I'm out of money and can't buy new wheels.

I'll tell you what though, I did develop a new automated product photography 360 degree imaging system, and I would be more than happy to take some high quality pictures of the wheels if you send me a pair ;)

So my number is correct...anyway...you shouldn't have people having to pre-order..etc. It is just wrong...and it is hurting you.
Whether you should choose to acknowledge it or not. Nevertheless, you have a great product with potential if those numbers are to be believed for the world wide sales of wheels. I hope that FLO will be the name that Zipp wanted to be.

You're putting words in my mouth regarding the numbers. I'm sorry if you don't agree with the way we run our business, but we are doing what we believe in. On a side note... Are you suggesting Zipp is failing? If that is what you are suggesting that's an awfully big statement to make.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

When my son was born last year the best advice I got was this:

Everybody thinks that they are an expert and everyone will give you advice. Just smile and nod and keep doing what you are doing.

You have a great product and you have happy customers. Keep doing what you are doing.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Well for one, it would the Dragons Den in Canada, and two, that would be VC and selling a part of your company. Which he just said they didn't want to do.

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Ian

Not to mention the kind of deals you get on those shows are laughably bad for anyone who has spent 5 minutes in the industry.

Grant,
Not really replying to you but yours was the one reply closest to my the point I wanted to make.

I work in the aerospace industry, one of our customers is here this week from the UK. He happens to be an avid bike racer (time trials and cyclocross only); nothing to do with triathlons and is only vaguely aware of "Slowtwitch".
He said that the club he is a member of (somewhere near Wharton?) is quite aware of Flo and that they have a very strong reputation amongst cyclists in the UK.
So... Yes they are "On the map" and I would much rather have them grow slowly and be strong so they are around a while.

Dont listen to the Slowtwitch chatter. You guys are making an awesome product and have even better customer service. You guys helped me get my bro a 90/disc combo and called me personally multiple times to make sure everything went smoothly. When I am in the market for race wheels FLO will absolutely get my business. Keep up the good work.

The Flo guys are Canadian originally, but they live in the US -- Flo itself is based in Las Vegas.

This. I posted this a while back, as with most items in industry you can choose 2 out of 3:
Zipp/HED: Performance and Avaiblible, but expensive
Williams/Boyd/Karbon/Yishun: Availible, Affordable, but mostly old "V" shape
FLO: Performance, Affordable, but takes time to get.

It just depends on what you want. People are actually getting FLO's rather quickly IMO. It took almost 5 months for me to get my set. But I ordered them 8 months before my "A" race, and I knew the time schedule going in, so it wasn't an issue with me.

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Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3

I think the Flo guys are doing pretty darn well. And one thing they are doing really differently than the other big wheel companies, they are themselves selling their wheels. This may be the model for the internet-enabled future: manufacturer/designer direct to consumer.

About the advice you got above, in my experience I would edit that some:

Everybody thinks that they are an expert and everyone will give you advice. Just smile and nod and listen; because some of the best advice comes from the unlikeliest sources.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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>This may be the model for the internet-enabled future: manufacturer/designer direct to consumer.

I don't know how well it's going to scale for Flo, though. If they want to get bigger (e.g. continuous inventory), they'll have to hire people smart in IT, marketing, operations, warranty repair, etc. At which point the cost-benefit vs. the retail model may start to converge.

I'm all for them, though, if just for their general openness.

Agreed. They offer a competitive product at a steal of a price, and have great customer service to boot. They're filling a gap in the market and we should all be happy about that. If the only complaint is that you have to wait a few months to get the wheels, well then go pay big bucks elsewhere.

My only question is once I get the FLO 60s on my Argon18, will I be an honorary Canadian citizen?

So you do $1.5 million in sales and have huge market potential?

Best I can do is tree-fiddy for a 95% stake in your company.

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__________________________

I tweet!

I appreciate all of the support on here. Thank you. To answer your question above, there's a long plan here at FLO. We've definitely thought all of your concerns above through and are confident we can keep FLO running successfully as is.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

If you've ever actually seen Shark Tank you'll know that a lot of the investors on that show agree its a lot smarter to grow slowly with 100% ownership than take on funding and have a "boss."

I have been waiting for Flo to open up inventory since day one and agree this whole pre order thing is killing me. But it is their business, their the ones that put out their necks for it, let them do it how they want.

Also, VC stands for venture capital so by saying VC capital you're showing a lot of ignorance to the topic, why should they listen to you if you're making such silly statements?

If you have a better business strategy, why don't you open up your own wheel business and show us how its done?

Uhm...how are you basing the breakdown of those 4500 units? How many flo 30, 90, disc, etc? How are you getting their production/shipping/marketing/warehouse/payroll/other costs?

And, for a pair of brothers, if the company is making "675k net", that's a pretty damn good return. Why would you give up anything as far as control for an unknown return?

And you also need to read up on what VC funding actually is, it's not a loan. They generally expect a company to go public or get sold in the next 5ish years, which is where they make their money (Stock sales). And, in return for this cash infusion, they also want a lot of control over how the company is run.

They are producing a good product, they are (generally) keeping up with demand, they have damned few unhappy customers from what I've seen on the boards, and they are very open with responses to any troubles/questions that arise.

I'd say they have an excellent business model/plan, and are executing it brilliantly.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I was pretty turned off by the whole preorder process. Signed up early. Got an email a few days ago awarding me an open invitation to a free for all limited window mosh pit purchase. I have 12 minutes to complete my order. Nice window! I'm traveling all day today. Not sure why I even signed up for the preorder.

The sad thing from a business perspective is I would have prepaid for the wheels many weeks ago before the wheels showed up. Like, when I signed up for the preorder. Not even an option. Interesting way to do business. Bought something else today.

Why on earth would someone with a strong demand for their product who wanted to be their own boss take VC money. Sell your soul, half your business, and find out your supply chain can't ramp up to meet the needs of your investors ROI expectations, leave your customers wanting with an inferior product because you had to source from a second know nothing supplier, and find yourself in between a rock and a hard place, where your only choice is to screw over every party involved, including your customers?

I respect your opinion but "taking people's money early" is what we did in the beginning. We did this and then our boat crashed, or there was a port strike, a Tsunami etc and there were delays. Then people complained that there were delays. I often hear your suggestion from many people but the fact is, we had far more complaints/cancellations when we did things that way. We literally get hundreds of emails a day ranging from questions, advice on how we "should" be running our business, compliments etc. We'll never please everybody, and we are fully aware that not everyone can wait for the next batch of FLO wheels. That said, we are honestly doing our best to keep the largest number of people happy based on all of the comments/questions/suggestions we hear.

Additionally, taking everyone's money at this point means you'd likely get wheels months and months later due to demand. That also places a huge amount of stress on our factories which makes things worse for everyone. When people find out they aren't getting wheels for months they often decide to cancel their orders 2 months into the process (because "something came up) and we are out the money. There is a lot of orchestration that goes on behind the scenes that most people don't understand. It's not as simple as "place an order for 2000 wheels and get them next month". With our current demand there would be no good way to give customers accurate shipping dates and we are not willing to do that as a company.

I hope that makes sense,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I 'm not knocking your business model, we bought our last new car via a pre-order and had to wait more than a year for delivery. The one thing I would ask for though is a decent shop feature on your website; when I click on "shop" all I get is a countdown to pre-order 5. I'm not in the market for buy wheels right now, but I am looking to buy in about a year or so and I am still doing my market research.

The "shop" feature only has a countdown timer linked to it a few hours before the pre-order. The rest of the time (ie, the last 8 weeks) you've had full access to all of our product pics, specs etc. Sorry for the inconvenience today.

Take care,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

You got a Tesla ? Lucky dog.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Same boat. Would definitely have some Flos o
In the stable but don't want to wait....it's not my business or $ at stake but there is no doubt they are losing business because of this. Why not raise the price to match production??

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______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

Every time these pre orders come around and the inevitable thread starts, "I got in and got my disc!" or, "bummer, missed out, maybe next one."

Reminds me of another popular business model around here, can't think of which one....... :)

The intensity of hedgefund's conviction had me curious, so I looked at the profile. I thought it was worth pointing out that this username was created yesterday and has 9 posts, half of which are in this thread. Take that for what you will.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Because we started the company with a belief that we could produce high quality affordable products and we are sticking with that vision. There's a bigger plan in the working.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I like the sound of this...care to elaborate?

Nope, we became Smart fans before they were ever imported so we pre-ordered a Smart FourTwo before they went on sale in the US. It's a great car, lots of fun to drive and its great entertainment when we pull into a gas station and pay less than $30 to fill up while others are well over $100.

Haha... not yet ;)

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Just PM me...promise I won't tell... = )

Personally this sales method has been really frustrating.
I leave a meeting and try to buy a disk.
They are in my shopping basket and and when i try to buy it is sold out?

My ability to buy was based on my internet speed and how fast i can type. Perhaps a lottery would be better? (that might help you get an idea of true demand also)

I'm really sorry about the frustration today. The DISCs were very popular today and were gone in about 4 minutes. There are many ways we could do things but it's impossible to please everyone. If we chose to use a lottery then people would be upset when they weren't selected but they were "first" to enter. Also, we get a very good idea of demand during these sales.

Again, I'm sorry for the frustration today.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

The discs that were sold today, were they they ones with the foam in it to dampen the vibration noise?

Yes. All future FLO DISCs will be the new foam models. We stopped selling those in 2012.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I say congrats to FLO for what they have done and are continuing to do. They have stuck to their business model since the beginning even though a lot of ST'rs not only know how high a seat needs to be, but how to exactly run a business from the start. I have been following the FLO process for awhile and plan on ordering some wheels in the next 6 months. Even if it's pre-order 10, I'll be waiting by the computer, refreshing the page every 10 seconds to get in on a set of 60/90, just like I did when I bought U2 tickets to the Dismantle tour years ago.

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_____________________________________________

Why don't we take a 5 minute brake...?

Not to mention that even with the name Hedgefund, he doesn't know the difference between gross and net...

"It's a Zen thing ... Kinda like 'How many babies fit in a tire?'"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I'm getting a 30, when is order 6?

Thanks for writing. Should be in June and there should be some (limited) 30s available. The FLO 30 production should ramp up quicker than our carbon wheels. The goal right now is to have 700 FLO 30s here by August :)

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I think it's great what you are doing. Sure, not EVERYONE is happy, but nobody ever is. Assuming you maintaining ownership, staying away from debt, and consistently building capital, you'll be able to ramp up production over time to meet demand. When you do, you'll still be lean, debt free and have plenty of cash. Under those circumstances, you're future should be solid. Good luck!

Chris,

What is the expected ship date of the pre-order today?

Thanks

The only lesson FLO needs to learn is not to share their quite successful business model and plan far and wide.

Customer service, a great product, and clear communication are one thing. Sharing your gross/net/sales volume and business strategies are entirely different.
I enjoy being ejumacated for free but it's only common sense and hard work the keep the copy cats from jumping on the band wagon.

Yea, they are doing something right if they are selling out every order in one day. Keep it up. Business secret #1. Put the word out that you are struggling to make ends meet, and that you can't make a profit. Sing the blues publicy, drive a shitty car to work and rake in the cash privately. Don't flaunt it. *wink wink*

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

The goal is to have all wheels shipped with about 7 days.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Wow, you guys are gonna have one long and busy week. Keep the fat tire ale handy ... :^)

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Yes... pre order weeks are long hauls, but we know how excited people are to get their products and we do our best to make that happen as quickly as possible.

Take care,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

What about the first to people who signed up for the "pre-order", errr, availability notification message? Same conclusion right? Also, how do you get "a good idea of demand during these sales" when you don't know how many people were unsuccessful with their purchase? Reading ST? I'm sure you are a really nice guy and obviously make a great product, but I do think you need some outside help. My $0.02. I'm not trying to be combative or ugly at all. Plenty of other choices for consumers. I work with small businesses daily and I can't help but see some red flags around your process. You can still do all of the things you mentioned above like controlling growth, keeping quality high, limiting outside investors, adding new wheel lines, etc, however your delivery to market strategy as it relates to the client experience is really flawed. At a minimum you need to allow for a true prepaid pre-order. I saw your response about this option. Most will wait if they know for certain that they will get the product by X date. Plenty of examples on this forum alone. I'm sure I was beat out today for a disc by a number of people who probably made a last minute decision to buy one when I was in line for weeks. I was traveling during the 4 minute window so I lose. Seems odd. Again, not the end of the world. HED makes a great disc too and it's already being shipped. I just find it odd that you are ok with the fact I would have given you $600 a month ago to ensure I could get one. As of now, had I not bought a HED, I would be waiting for the next 4 minute window. Does that sounds like good plan to you? If it does, see line two about getting outside help.

Now, don't you go givin' Flo no tree-fiddy.

So for every 1000 wheels they sell, they have maybe 3 or 4 people pissed that they wanted to, but couldn't buy any... due to high demand. That's something like a 99.6% satisfaction rate... sounds like a pretty good business model to me!

I feel that you are frustrated about your experience today and I'm sorry about that. It's honestly impossible to please everyone and we've clearly upset you. Here are my thoughts regarding what you've said....

Demand: There are many metrics that we see on the back end that give us a good idea of demand. Number of sign up, number of users on the site etc.

Pre Paying: We did this when we started the company and we had a ton of complaints. Here is what we heard...

Why do we have to wait so long?
Your lead times should be getting better.
If you're always taking peoples money in advance you must be having financial problems.
Your company clearly "needs help" if you can't cut down your lead times.
These guys just can't figure out production.

So what did we do? We cut our lead times down to a week. Fast forward a few months, and our demand is now higher than ever and people want to pre pay again. You said above that you find it odd that we are ok with the fact that you would have given us $600 a month ago to ensure you got a wheel AND as a result of not being able to do that you bought a HED wheel instead. Is that ideal? Of course not but what is the solution? Pre paying right? This sounds like a great idea. You get the opportunity to pre pay and get the wheels by X date. But what X date is acceptable? We had 997 people signed up for this pre order. If we allowed everyone to pre pay then some people would be waiting 6+ months for wheels. If you came to me two weeks ago and said "I want to pre pay for a wheel" and I told you that you'll likely get it in October/November would that have made you happy? I'm guessing it would not have. I'm guessing you would have posted that we need to figure out how to manage production or some other problem.

Now I'm not trying to be combative or ugly either, but things aren't as simple as they appear. Before I got into this business I would have been asking the same questions. The simple fact is our demand is high and we are already on schedule to triple production this year (that's about 4500 wheels). Everything has it's limit and factories are no exception. Growth requires a delicate balance and there is risk involved in every move you make. As business owners your job is to minimize that risk.

Finally, can things improve? Absolutely! If things were perfect I wouldn't be writing this message to you. You'd have been able to buy your FLO wheels today and you'd be a happy customer. But we are a very new business who is growing at a very quick rate and we are doing everything we can to keep up. In time, this will get better, we promise. We are very sorry for upsetting some people (including you) as we continue to grow. I promise that we will do everything we can to make as many people happy as possible.

I hope this makes sense,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Chris, you and Jon keep what you are doing. I would much rather be the merchant with the line in front of the store than the one with sign in the front window that says 50% off and no one around. BTW my 60/90 set is sick! My wife is jealous so next order I need another set.

Best of luck. Your product is worth the wait!

this is part of growing pain of a small business. What ever change they make will never make everyone happy. But at the end of the day, it does seems like they produce something that is in very high demand and the feedback from the users is extremely positive.

And as Chris mention, it s there business and there is a big risk management issue when you are this early into the life of a new company. i think that there cautious approach is smart at this time. Very few people will ever understand the complexity of production with asia, and the complexity of the relationship...... ramping up production isn't as easy as it sound.....and it takes lots of money to make money!

I myself miss on getting a pair today as i got caught in some phone call at 10am and after finishing those business call, the 90s were gone! a bit frustrating as i wanted some wheels to try for early races but, first come first serve.....that is very much the same in so many part of our industry. like you said, if you cant wait, there is other alternative.

my question to chris would be, do you guys kept a float of wheels for warranty purpose? how do you handle that part of the business?

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Thanks jonnyo. To answer your question, we always keep a float of wheels for warranty purposes. To date, the warranty process has run pretty smoothly for us and we've been able to react quickly and keep customers happy.

Take care,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I'd love to hear about the other similarly-priced and similarly aero choices.

I guess I should chime in on my opinion since its friday and FINALLY nice weather here in Chicago so my mind is already out the door.

FLO is sure taking a lot of heat for the way they are going about their orders but in an economy where small businesses fold up just as fast as they open, lets give them a bit of credit. How many people on here that are cutting down their pre order process would lose a wink of sleep if they took some of the risks everyone is urging them to take and end up failing? In this day in age where anything less than instant gratification is flat out unacceptable, yes, its a drag that many of us keep missing the boat on placing an order after repeated attempts, but they are trying their best. This is money coming out of their own pockets, and as much as I am sure they would like to accommadate everyone (for those pockets to grow) they just can not make it happen at this time.

The more and more this process unfolds, these guys seem like they have an unbelievably solid business model. May not be the popular vote among those of us who are looking for new wheels NOW, but you gotta hand it to them, they are avoiding many pitfalls that gobble up small businesses every day.

Disclaimer- I have also attempted at getting a disk and failed multiple times so this message is not coming from someone who is on the sunny side of the predicament.

My brain hurts now....

Solid business models generate sufficient profits to keep a business going. There is no need for solid business models to publicly discuss cash flow problems.

If Flo had profits, banks would loan them money to meet their cash flow needs. It is very cheap to borrow from banks. I don't understand the interest in venture capitalists.

I don't know much about their business model except to notice that their costs are mostly pre-production. It would be almost free to keep an inventory. (Reenforced by the comment that they keep an inventory for warrantee purposes.)

But it is the business model Flo has chosen. And some people will not like it.

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I will correct you on your error. Money does not come out of Flo's pockets. It comes out of the pockets of their customers.

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I am cheap. I ride on Shimano hubs and Mavic OpenPro rims - under $400 for a matched pair. So I am not a customer of Flo's.

Our tiny family business has run for 20 years, making more and more profit every year. Small businesses are not failing in this economy. Poorly run businesses are failing. Like they do in any economy.

Then why not adopt a hybrid approach that covers both ways people can purchase your products. You want to pre-order, great, but here are the specified ground rules. If you don't want to pre-order then you can wait for anything not spoken for in the production run and take your chances in the free-for-all.