Bmc, because, well, you can actually get one.

The P5 is faster than the Scott Plasma Premium.

P5 - definitely top notch aerodynamically, has spot for Di2 battery. has UCI legal or illegal options. Aduro aerobar is super integrated and awesome but difficult to adjust if your position is not already dialed in. Don't have to use that bar though. Hydraulic brakes are pretty awesome, aerodynamically and braking wise.

BMC - EDIT: also has an internal spot for the DI2 battery! aerodynamic palmares a bit unknown but probably good. (As far as I know) - unique looks, integrated brakes difficult to adjust, problematic with wide wheels. Crank has to be removed sometimes to adjust rear brake.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

'
haha, good point. unless you are a 56, then you can get a p5 =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Get the BMC. Looks better and you won't be another Cervelo spode rolling around out there. It's definitely aero enough and the P5 isn't much faster of a bike. You are splitting nut hairs at this point. Your legs do the work and your positioning on the bike that is key.

There is a 58 P5-Six at my local shop just calling my name... Honestly I think they built it to taunt me into buying it. If anyone is looking for a P5 in 58, ping me. I can put you in touch with the shop.

Oh good so you have seen a yaw sweep comparison of both with a reasonable testing protocol?

Please do post it!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Listen here Mr. Cervelo lover, who gives a crap. The BMC looks better and being on the P5 isn't much faster, you are splitting hairs. That is my opinion. So take your biased ass yaw sweep comparison with "reasonable testing protocols" mumbo jumbo and shove it up your ass. I'm just talking shit by the way, but seriously. I ride a SC and could give too shits about a P5. I'm not going to be any faster because of the bike, its just hype and wasted money...I learned the hard way being ignorant when i laid down all the cash for my SC. Now confidence is another thing if you think you are on one of the fastest bikes I'm sure it helps some. I would have rather bought a cheaper bike and focused on being more aero in the cockpit and strengthening my legs. So back to the BMC or P5, get the BMC it looks bitchin. Is all about the rider, not the bike so get what looks sick.

 

I changed from a QR Cd0.1 to a BMC TM0.1 and my times dropped quite a lot straight away. Dropped about 12 minutes on my IM split on a comparable day year on year (4.50 to 4.37).

If you are going to go with the BMC, get it with Di2 because otherwise the shifting is going to be TERRIBLE. When the cover gets placed, it pushes the cables into pretty awkward shapes and results in some pretty wonky shifting. The brakes are a nightmare with this bike however.

The P5 shifts a little nicer and has better brakes. I only have 2 concerns about the P5: (1) Actually getting one and (2) Adjusting your fit. The Aduro bar is VERY nice, but if your fit is not dialed in properly, small adjustments can be troublesome.


Check with your shop on the availability of the P5 and see if you can actually find one. If you can I'd highly recommend buying it.

There's a reason why so many Cervelos are in the transition.
Its a good brand.
And if you'll "be another Cervelo P5 spode rolling around out there" despite the price & delay...
It must be a great bike.

Not trashing the BMC,love its new clean fork.
But as you said...its your legs.

Guy riding a speed concept pretending to not care about aerodynamics...

classic!

so spending money on your speed concept prevented you from focusing on being more aero in the cockpit and strengthening your legs?

does it cost money to strengthen the legs??

You might be right that the difference between the BMC and P5 is small. I just don't know yet.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

This would imply a 260 gram difference in drag between the QR Cd0.1 and the BMC which is probably impossible. unless the QR is really bad, and I Doubt it is. If you had power files and exacting setup sepcs that would help the analysis a lot ;)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Must report in CdA, come on!

LOL, duuuuude. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't have bought my SC...it was my first Tri bike (I'm retarded what I can say). It's a nice bike, but I got a 9 series and I spent too much money. I would say spending around $5k would have been better for me and guess what I wouldn't have been any slower. Oh well, live and learn. I still spent time focusing on getting aero in my cockpit on my SC regardless and strengthening my legs was free (training a lot on the bike with a good plan). You've taught me some things about being aero, so I respect your opinion. However, you will always be a Cervelo lover, which is fine too. Later

The shifting on the front end of the TM01 is very finnicky... A couple nice tips are to run the Bontrager RXXXL brake levers as they have the integrated barrel adjuster on the end of the lever. Also use nokon with the smaller beads for the rear d for any super tight kinks for the front end shifting (or aztec, etc)

Ive had my TM01 over a year and have never had any issues with shifting performance. Shifts better than my P2 did.

Yes I was surprised it was so much faster too. I thikn the seat post clamp on the CD0.1 was always wobbling and causing lost power. I only got a power meter with the BMC so don't have data from the previous year unfortunately

Says who?

Basically, it's whatever wind tunnel test says, then it's in the last end the rider that matters.

And I do not think we will be able to ride faster on a P5 than a BMC TM01 or any other top time trial/tri frame.

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My TT bike
BMC TM01

Fit still means the most. Case: I went from a nose cone Shiv to an Ordu (pre-release of the new frame). First IM on the Ordu yielded 16 minutes faster on the bike and 7 minutes faster in the run. This was the same race, 1 year later. All the metrics and/or fitness measures were the same (or close) going in. The major difference was long term comfort in my aerobars. The Orbea fits me. If a steel tank fits the best, I vote for that.

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Swimmer
http://www.usprotri.com/LAMASTRA.html
http://www.bodyphyxinternational.com

I agree!

Also, another strike against the P5 - if you're in the Di2 camp, because of the P5's hydraulic brakes you can't have the second set of Di2 shifters on the brake levers, just on the bar ends. Takes some of the benefit of Di2 out.

And the BMC is just insanely hot looking. And isn't that really the most important thing?

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Team OC/AD D
Team Juicy Racing's Skip Barber Racing School and Race Series Forums: http://www.skippyforums.com/

thank you for that reminder on DI2

I bought a DI2 TM01 late in the year. I got a great deal, I had the best race of my life on it.
But then got into the "should I have got a P5" based on the P5 > Scott > BMC comments.
But I forgot about the DI2 shifters and I appreciate the fact I actually had a bike for that race.

This thread has made me NOT regret my choice.

I don't see how anyone could buy the TM01 given what rinard said about the Scott Plasma Premium being aerodynamically faster. I mean, having to deal with a PITA front brake adjustment, removing the crank to adjust the rear sometimes, problems with Firecrest wheels, etc. It's just wayyyy too much trouble to deal with given that it's slower than other, better looking and cheaper bikes out there (like the aforementioned Scott Plasma, which looks better).


I cross-shopped the BMC and the Shiv and decided on the Shiv mostly because a regular person can do all the adjustments on it easily and it's top-notch aerodynamically. That goes a long way.


Between the TM01 and the P5, I would go with the P5 every time. Even if the P5 is a PITA to adjust (I don't know enough about P5s to say), at least it's faster and better integrated than the TM01.


Summary: There's zero reason to get the TM01 under any circumstances unless you just love BMC or are getting a prodeal on it or whatever.

You should also note that BMC also has an internal place for the battery (inside the seattube) and is UCI legal.

As far as the brakes, once I had mine set-up they were never touched all season except for adjusting pads between training and race wheels. About a 20 minute process at the most. So I really wouldn't say the brakes are difficult to adjust.

ETA: As far as the aero-ness of the frame, I did not see any difference compared to my Nose-Cone Shiv. Both frames were consistent with speed at a given power. Before I get questioned on my testing protocol, this was based on a season's worth of racing and training on both frames. Both the Shiv and TM01 were roughly the same delta compared to the P3 I had before. So as I brought up when Damon stated the Scott was much faster, the word 'much' is subjective. Is it 20g drag, 50g, 100g? Since this is Cervelo's data we don't know what the gap is, but based on my observations it is right in the mix with the other Superbikes in terms of slippery-ness

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

Check out my blog here | Twitter:@tmalis3

Wrong, and it can be done for about 20-30 bucks.


Yes, it is hot looking. But I'd rather go fast then look good so I can beat people who think this.

You are asking a silly question here. :) This is Cervelo sponsored forum here, at least appears so. Anything not Cervelo or Felt sucks here. Silly you for asking that. :) (I am being cynical. Cervelo is also the company that produced P4, that was a huge success for them, that is why they invented P5 for which you have to have a PHD to work on)

Really not a good idea to make fun of how hard the P5 is to work on (it isn't, at all if you use normal aerobars and brakes) in the context of a thread about the BMC (where rear brake adjustment requires crankset removal)

Better to leave that for shiv tri threads maybe.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I recently built up my BMC TIme Machine and the brakes aren't that hard to set up. You need to have the correct housing length but other then that it's not bad. I did the whole install and adjustment with the cranks installed and don't see why you would have to remove the cranks to adjust the brakes. I haven't personally owned a Cervelo so can't comment to how hard it is to work on.

You would rather go fast eh? LMAO This is a hilarious comment to me. How much faster do you really think you are going to go on your P5? You can't tell me how fast because no one knows, unless you've had both bikes setup similar and tested in the same conditions. Then you still probably won't know because the bikes are so close. I'll tell you what's even funnier, how are you going to beat dudes on BMC's just because you are on a P5, give me a break do you think your P5 has a turbo boost button? If you really think it's going to boil down to comparing bikes to whether you beat some or not especially these two bikes, you are smoking crack. Get the bike that looks sick and then beat the dudes on P5's that think they are so fast, now that sounds like more fun.

I think you could probably beat me riding an old Schwinn beach cruiser, but your sense of humor needs some work.

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Team OC/AD D
Team Juicy Racing's Skip Barber Racing School and Race Series Forums: http://www.skippyforums.com/

That part of my post was slightly tongue in cheek haha; not meant to be truly literal.

You keep doing what you do; I'll keep doing what I do.

p5 > plasma 3 > BMC

Proven.

Also, you should probably relax. It is an online forum composed mostly of opinion. Train more.

di2 P5 brake handle shifting-from your response you suggest that addition of the brake handle Di2 shifting is possible.could you give details or a reference??In particular I wanted to build another tt bikewith Magura brakes as on the P5 but am reluctant to do this since I find the brake handle DI2 shifting very helpful.I would be grateful for your response

...just add sprint shifters

I would go with the one you think is faster, but I personally would go with the BMC due to quality...handmade in Switzerland!

I'm just talking crap, so I am relaxed. This board if full of too many Cervelo boy's running around preaching Cervelo gospel. Train more is definitely key. Cheers

BMCs, except for the Impec, are made in Taiwan. Nonetheless, between my wife and I, who each own a Cervelo and a BMC, I would rate BMC's build and finish as excellent and probably superior to Cervelo.

What is proven? And where is it proven? Id love to see some numbers!

Fixed.

We have yet to see any aero data for the BMC Time Machine from either BMC or from anyone else. About the best we can do is make some inferences from wind tunnel testing Cervelo did on the P4 and other superbikes and subsequently wrote about here on Slowtwitch. The P4 was slightly faster than the Scott. Cervelo claims the P5 is faster than the P4, so therefore the P5 should be faster than the Scott. Damon Rinard probably based his claim on testing that Cervelo has done in the last year.

Unfortunately, it seems that disclosing wind tunnel testing results, white papers, and the bases for claims of aerodynamic qualities are becoming an increasingly hazardous minefield, because so much depends on the testing conditions and bike setups. Superdave has said there is less and less reason to make such claims, because just about anyone could construct a testing protocol that makes one bike look better than another. Even then, results themselves can be contradictory. If a P4 is faster at low yaw but a Speed Concept is faster at higher yaws, Trek and Cervelo can both claim their bike is faster than the other. White papers and aerodynamic claims need to be carefully evaluated and, even then, you need to decided how the results matter to you. The P4 beat out its competitors most markedly at low yaw angles, but does this matter if you are extremely unlikely to race under such conditions? The P5 is purportedly faster than than the P4, but is this the P5-6 or P5-3? To what degree is this outcome influenced by the Aduro bar? What if the Aura bar, which is less expensive and comes standard on the P5-3, is used instead? What if you put a TriRig Omega brake on the P4? There are a lot of variables to put together in deciding whether the bike, as you would ride it, would be more or less aerodynamic than another.

This says nothing about whether you can actually get the bike and whether you can purchase it from a local shop that has a good fitter, good service, and experience working with triathletes, as well as one with which you also have a good relationship.

That was my point. To the best of the collective ST knowledge there are no numbers. So the text quoted about it being "Proven" that the P5 is the fastest thing around is patently false.

"White papers and aerodynamic claims need to be carefully evaluated and, even then, you need to decided how the results matter to you."

This. And the more info the claimant is willing to give you to work with, the more informed a decision you can make.

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Carl Matson

About this point.

You dont need to take off the crankset to adjust the brake.

1) Take off the rear wheel.
2) Squeeze the rear brakes together.
3) Use a hex wrench with a U-Bend and remove the brake calipers. Swap brake pads or whatever you want to do to the brakes.

Additionally if you want to just adjust the brakes position/distance from the wheels breaking surface there is a little hex nut that squezes the brake-cable.
Losen this nut.
Adjust the brakes distance/position.
Tighhten the hex nut again.

I know a lot of you have trouble fixing a puncture.... but these brakes are not rocket science to work on.

*high five*

Edit: I dont think is has been proven yet which is faster.
I'd expect there is not a massive difference between them, ride which one you like. Be happy if you are lucky enough to own either of them.

Zoom_zoom_Ben wrote:

That was my point. To the best of the collective ST knowledge there are no numbers. So the text quoted about it being "Proven" that the P5 is the fastest thing around is patently false.

No, not "patently false."

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4331694#4331694



Just depends on if you believe Damon or not. Objectively, I believe him. Subjectively, I REALLY believe him.

pat·ent·ly (ptnt-l, pt-)adv. In a patent manner; openly, plainly, or clearly:


false (fôls)
adj. fals·er, fals·est
1. Contrary to fact or truth: false tales of bravery.
2. Deliberately untrue: delivered false testimony under oath.
3. Arising from mistaken ideas: false hopes of writing a successful novel.
4. Intentionally deceptive: a suitcase with a false bottom; false promises.
5. Not keeping faith; treacherous: a false friend. See Synonyms at faithless.
6. Not genuine or real: false teeth; false documents.
7. Erected temporarily, as for support during construction.
8. Resembling but not accurately or properly designated as such: a false thaw in January; the false dawn peculiar to the tropics.
9. Music Of incorrect pitch.
10. Unwise; imprudent: Don't make a false move or I'll shoot.
11. Computer Science Indicating one of two possible values taken by a variable in Boolean logic or a binary device.




Which is incorrect? The "patently" or the "false"? You stated something that is clearly incorrect.

Arguing semantics. Nice fallback.

Haha.Uh, huh.

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"One Line Robert"

And Damon wouldn't say anything that doesn't scream Cervelo is the fastest true or not would he? Kind of his job ya know.

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It's not how you start, it's how you finish

some people have this thing called ethics, have you hear of that?

And Mr. Rinard has some of best in the business. He must be thinking of JG, TD, or FD LOL.

So if one were to stick to the company line we call that ethics now?

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It's not how you start, it's how you finish

So if one were to stick to the company line we call that ethics now?

Ethically sticking to the company line is talking up your product where it's the best... and keeping your mouth shut where it isn't.

we have a winner!!

well, it might also involve some corrective actions where required :)

As Damon was formerly an engineer in WI, I would think he met his ethics requirements, minimal as they are.

great point because I want the Di2 group