:-D

Now try them in a tire with a "better" casing...the 4000S's always feel "dead" to me, even with latex tubes.

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What tire do you run? I like the feel of the 4000S better than the 4000; but, those are the only two decent tires I have used.

I also just switched to 4000s and latex tubes, love them so far

Here are some good choices offering much better rolling resistance than your 4000s:
Specialized Mondo open tubular (it is a clincher)23
Bontrager Race X Lite Pro23
Bontrager R4 Aero22
Veloflex Record20
Continental Grand Prix Super Sonic which I think is now available in both 20 and 23
Vittoria Open Corsa Evo 23
Michelin Pro 2 Light and Pro 3 Light

Pick one depending on what you want regarding weight vs durability. They all roll well. Use them with latex tubes

Many of these are race-only tires (I run supersonics on my race wheel w/latex tubes), so they wear quicker and flat more. The Mich PR3s are pretty supple for a tire you can train on (not that the GP4000S is a bad tire at all)..

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That's what she said

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Veloflex record is only available in the 20c width. Is that a problem for larger cyclists. Is there a weight limit for the 20c size?

Awesome.....see you on the side of the road :0)

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"Awesome.....see you on the side of the road :0)"

That has not been my experience at all, and I've used them for racing/training for the last 3 years. Far less flats with latex than butyl.

Ya but aren't you like 115 lbs soaking wet ?

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My sticking point is how fast they are supposed to lose air. How much pressure do they lose over a couple of hours? 10-20 lbs pressure loss has got to negate any benefits.

It isn't anywhere close to that.

I've noticed about a 15-20psi loss of pressure over 24hours. You are not really losing all that much air over a couple of hours.

"Ya but aren't you like 115 lbs soaking wet ? "

I wish...I'm usually around 155. I would imagine the weight would be a much bigger factor in how long the tires last than in flat occurrence as a result of butyl/latex.

let me give this recent example.............

first TT of season, I finish my first run and stop to talk with some teammates, when something catches my eye. Pull it out of tire, part of a staple. i don't know if it went all the way through, but no tube puncture(latex). I do second run after, all is fine.

Later I take off race tire and tube and install trainer tire/tube.

fast forward, race weekend approaching again, go put race tire/tube back on. well, after the half staple incident, i fell the inside of the tire as I go to reinstall it. hmm, there is something sharp in there. I find another half staple, one that has pierced the casing and was in contact with tube. remove staple, reinstall tube. no issues with pressure loss, no hole in latex tube.

my belief is that a butyl tube would have flatted from that staple. have done 2-20k and 2-40k on it since. no issues

I am 175lbs, I'm about 3 years into using latex tubes, so does the wife, none of us have had a flat yet with them.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Is there a good video somewhere that explains how to mount the tubes without damaging them or getting creepage causing a pinch flat? I'm no the edge of trying them, but just a little nervous....At $20 per tube.

I have latex tubes on all three of my bikes. Currently running SuperSonics on my SLC and 4000S on my English build. Third bike is also running 4000s. I can feel the difference between the SuperSonics and the 4000S and would agree with Tom a bit. If I am running 105 in the front and 110 on the rear on both bike with the same wheels (AC 350's) I can tell the difference. I would say that the 4000s does feel dead compaired to the SuperSonics. However, the SuperSonics are over 40g lighter, wear faster but feel so good. I love the SuperSonics with latex tubes on my EDGE 45's. Very nice set up.

I do not install them any different than installing any other tube. I was running the 50g Butyl tubes before the latex and they are paper thin and I still intalled them the same. Just be careful.

No major difference, just don't manhandle them on install. A few tips:
1. A light dusting of talc makes the entire process a bit easier.
2. When you have fully tucked the tube in and both beads are on, "walk" around the rim, shimmying the casing back and forth to see if any tube is visible and to better seat the tube. If any tube is visible, be sure to get it fully tucked in either before inflation, by further shimmying or with a tire lever.

you know how after putting a tube in, you are supposed to go around the ENTIRE rim of the wheel, push the tire in and check, both sides, that the tube isn't peeking out from under the tire?

you *cannot* skip that step with latex =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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I've noticed even less than that. Maybe 20 psi loss over 3-4 days. I went on a ride last week w/o adding air for 6 days, tires were soft but never flatted. Pressure was ~ 85 (from 115psi).

"Is there a good video somewhere that explains how to mount the tubes without damaging them or getting creepage causing a pinch flat?"

The easiest is if you have a tire that is already used a bit so it is stretched out. If not that, leave it in the car on a sunny day for a while so it heats up before putting it on. That way I can usually get it on without a lever. I also give a few puffs into the tube to inflate it (very) slightly before putting it on the rim to keep any twists out.

Also, make sure your rim tape is in good shape. The latex can sneak through the smallest imperfection.

So, I guess the answer is to be just as anal with latex as I am with butyl....

Thanks

Ordinarily I'd try to keep anal and latex out of the same sentence, but in this case yes.

its safer that way

hoooooooooooooo

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Do you use strapping tape or electrical tape over the rim tape? Or is good rim tape ok?

I have used the Challenge Latex tubes with Challenge Criterium Sette open tubulars (aka clinchers) with Reynolds SDV-66 and Assault carbon clinchers and really, really liked the combination. On the rare occasion where I did flat, when I stopped to change the tire, I would find that the tire had a nasty side-wall cut which I incorrectly attributed to the latex tube. But in retrospect, after Tom A. got me to see the errors of my ways, when I did flat (usually from road debris), the tube typically delfated much faster than I could roll to a stop during which time the sidewall of the tire was in contact with the edge/bead of the carbon rim which sliced a nice 1-2cm hole in the sidewall. Fortunately, the last time it happened, a couple $10 bills wrapped around the replacement inner tube got me back on the road which I guess is the price/risk of running high dollar tires and tubes on less than optimal road surfaces.

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I use Velo Plugs; no issues so far.

Ditto, 175lbs here and although I haven't conducted a scientific study, I'm sure I flat less frequently with latex tubes. Of course, I admittedly have dicked up a few of them over the last few years during the install but I can't blame anyone but myself for that...

On the rim I just bought I took Tom A's advice and tried strapping tape. 2 layers, the second slightly offset so the little cords sit in between the cords of the first layer. Worked great, and the added bonus is that it's thinner than regular rim tape so getting tires on is a little easier as well. I can actually get my conti trainer tire on without levers.

If you use strapping tape, you don't need any other tape underneath it.

Electrical tape IMHO is only for use over a cloth tape, since the latex will tend to "grab" the cloth (by extruding itself into the gaps in the fabric weave). I'd never use electrical tape by itself (too weak).

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Thanks for the advice. Both rims already have good cloth tape so I think I will just add electrical tape over cloth.

Ok, taste the koolaid time. Just ordered my Bont Latex Tubes. Will be at LBS tomorrow, installed Friday night, test, race on Sunday.

Should I practice my podium/interview speech now ? ;-)

 

Now try them in a tire with a "better" casing...the 4000S's always feel "dead" to me, even with latex tubes.[/quote]
You dont like the PG4000s´s ? They test best in rolling resistance and overall round here all the time for the last 3 years...Namely against the Pro2/3 race.
I ride them and love them

It's OK...for a training tire ;-)

Both the GP4000S and Pro2/3 race roll about the same...and both are also ~"middle of the pack" as far as that goes. There are lots of tires above them on AFM's list.

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Just out of curiosity, can you patch a latex tube? Standard patch kit work?

Yes and yes. You don't even need to "rough up" the surface before applying the glue.

Self-adhesive patches don't work.

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I ride the Vittorias Evo CX II everyday and they last thousands of miles for me. I had a similar experience with the Michelins, but the Vittoria are somewhat more durable and seem to ride better for me. I blew through the Veloflex Paves that I had. I weigh ~150 pounds.

OK so I am doing my first IM next week. I have GP 4000's and trained on gatorskins. I am 170 and use a HED 60/90. I plan on riding 20 mph, did 22.5 in my last 70.3.

Will I really notice a big difference. I am so scared to change anything at this point but I am also scared of flatting and also looking for any advantage possible. I also considered changing tires but puncture resistance vs rolling resistance appears best in the GP's

I bought four from realcyclist and am going to put them on this weekend as racing season starts in a couple of weeks. I resisted putting them on earlier as I wanted to train "harder"...kinda like swinging two bats in the on deck circle.

GP4000s will be fine. They roll notablty faster than the gatorskins. I raced on those for years before switching to supersonics (which are faster, but not nearly as flat resistant).

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I'm assuming you're filling them with atmospheric air...but if you really want a sweet ride, do like me and only use CO2....costs a bit more but there's a noticeable ride difference...in fact on long rides, it even seems to get more cushy as the miles go by

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

no single change will be a 'big difference'
it is the sum of many silly things that makes the big difference

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

lol

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

REALLY??? I have never heard that CO2 is better inflation. Why is that?

While I have loved ST and all the minutia, I am starting to go crazy with it.

Joke...Just the opposite.

Sorry, don't know how to do pink font...

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

you should hear the BS surrounding stereo cables

Hahaha that's just messed up to not put that in pink.

x2. And you should add just a touch of air to the tube, maybe just 1psi before doing this procedure.

Great. Thanks for helping me spend $30... :)

http://www.trisports.com/...a-tube-latex-51.html

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After ride latex tubes for 3 weeks (300 miles, including Mt Lemmon), I won't go back to butyl. The ride quality alone is worth it to me.

Tom,

When hammer it out of the saddle, it almost feels like the rear tire is flat; is this what you mean by feel "dead"? FWIW, I felt this with the butyl tubes; it's just more pronounced with latex.

No...kind of the opposite. They sorta feel like I'm riding on stiff garden hoses...not as bad as some other tires, but it's still there...

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OH like they don't "bounce" but absorb energy?

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-Jason
______________________________________________
Is that all you've got? Are you sure?

I have to agree. I did my first ride today with a latex tube in the front tire, which I was finally able to install without blowing it. What a difference it made, and that was just one tube. Accelerations and climbs were so much easier. I should get additional performance by adding one to the back tire on my next ride.

I tried using them in the past, but always had them blow in the installation, or just as the ride got started. I obviously wasn't installing them correctly. That's why I was reluctant to invest too much of my time and effort on both tubes tubes. I was very careful this time, using talk and avoiding tire levers, and double checking inside the rim before inflating. Once installed correctly, they seem to be very resilient.

I am using the Vittoria Evo Open Corsa, which seems to be a good match for latex tubes.

I think that's commonly referred to as 'placebo effect'. It seems highly unlikely the 2-3W gained from Latex tubes would make a noticeable difference in accelerating or climbing. Perhaps the wind was blowing favorably today?

Do they feel faster? I don't know. I agree 6W should be hard to perceive. However, the ride quality is definitely noticeable.

It's fairly easy to dismiss any positive feedback as the placebo effect. You weren't there, so I'll fill you in. I based my performance improvement on how I did compared to other individuals in the group ride. When I start at the bottom of the hill at the tail end of the group and end up with the lead group at the top of the hill, I would say that's a significant improvement from my usual staying at the tail end. Was it a placebo effect? Possibly, but my gut feeling is probably not. Can I prove it? No, just giving subjective impressions. Numbers are useful, but there are also intangibles out there.

Exactly. That's the definition of the placebo effect. You think you should go faster and feel better so you do. It has nothing to do with Latex though.

I would love to have the roads you guys have apparently. I have great low traffic hilly terrain to train on where I live but the roads are old and we have a lot of tar and chip etc... In the last 2 years I have strayed from Conti's for some of the reasons described above in the end I have come home from rides and threw them right back on. I have tried Michelins and I have had some Deda's. I loved them both and they felt great but both times within 20 miles of riding I have puctured. I'm not talking pinch flats either, I am talking smack in the middle of the tread punctures. Conti's are pretty much bombproof, even here.

So here is why I use Conti's in racing (Conti Triathlon) I need confidence in my equiptment when I race. How does one have confidence in equiptment when they can't get through one training ride without a puncturing mid tread? I am a strong cyclist and am willing to give up a tiny bit of time with high assurance I will get through the bike leg without flatting. Granted most races I race at have better road conditions than what I train on but it all goes back to confidence in equiptment. Shelling out $75 for tires that can't get me through 20 miles is a bit of a dissapointment. The plus of racing on smoother roads than I train on is I am always faster racing than training at same wattage.

I have been watching how much air I loose with the latex tubes. What I have noticed is 20 lbs in 24 hrs, 40lbs in 48 hours, and 60lbs in 72 hours. I have heard that latex loses air faster the hotter it is outside.....time will tell.

FWIW. I rode the Jasper Disaster course this weekend a four hour ride in the blistering heat of North Arkansas. After the ride, I checked the air in the tubes and I lost about ~3 to 5 lbs.

www.tourdehills.com

+1 for Latex
I installed latex tubes in my road and Tri bikes about a year ago. I average maybe 80-100 miles a week through out the year. I haven't had a flat or failure of any kind with latex tubes yet. I'm 175lbs and use 23c 4000s's and ProRace2's and ride on some pretty crappy rural roads (plan to buy some low rolling resistance tires before next big race). I use Challenge Corsa latex tubes for about $10 a piece. I'm not tuned into the bike enough to notice a big feel difference, but believe I'm saving a few watts based on the rolling resistance tests. It seems like they loose 8-10lbs a day.


Greg

It really depends on the road surfaces you ride on - some of these tires, notably the Pro 3, are hopeless where I live (lots of chip seal, lots of debris, very hot summers = Pro 3s cut to ribbons). Maybe not on race day, but the GP 4000 (or S) is by far the most common tire choice for most of the serious cyclists I see around here, for the vast bulk of their riding (and a lot of them race them, for instance on course like Vineman or the Terrible Two)

That being said, while they've been great to me on flat protection, I agree that GP 4000 (regular and S version) do not 'feel' anywhere near as good as, say, Pro 3s and others mentioned. But I'm partial to Contis now, so curious: how are the Super Sonics by comparison, in terms of performance and flats?

No flats in THREE YEARS?! I want your roads!!!

Seriously question Jack: Is there any well established CW regarding puncture protection between standard butyl and latex?

It isn't anywhere close to that.

Mark,

It's amazing to me the numbers of triathletes who did not get the memo that you don't need an amazingly high crutch crushing and pounding psi to get great rolling resistance!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I was pumping my latex/4000S up to 120 lbs (weigh 162 lbs) because Tyler Hamiltion told my brother, his coach, that latex tubes will lose 20 lbs over the course of a 4 hr to 5 race. I am going to go back to 112 PSI to 115 PSI as I have now debunked that myth.

I do have some super sonics on a pair of Zipp FC clinchers and I like how they feel and roll. I don't think I would use them for daily training due to durability issues over the long term, but I think their flat protection is likely as good as any other light weight racing tire.

Where did you find Challenge latex tubes? I can't find them anywhere.

Sorry :(
I got them at World Class Cycles and got the last batch about 7 month's ago, but it looks like they only carry Michelin and Vittoria latex tubes now.
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/...s_adhesives_cart.htm

ive had plenty of flats, just not while i happen to have latex tubes in my tires. i don't generally run them when training. sometimes I do.

and no, there is no objective, scientific data bout puncture resistance with them.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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I went back to pumping my tires up to 108 lbs and still lose only 20 lbs in 24 hours. The smooth ride of a latex tube at 108 lbs is priceless. I haven't had any flats in 3k miles either. I would never go back to butyl tubes based on comfort alone.

Love latex tubes, much smoother ride, could care less about more or less rolling resistance or the 5-10lb air loss in 24 hours.

I also use 303 protectant (similar to ArmorAll) when installing much better than using talcum powder. I think that also helps in getting a smoother ride, coat the tube and rub some on the inside of the tire to boot.

Ron W.

My tubes are the pale green ones, maybe michelin I can't remember. They are fairly thick, but at least with these I find the airloss over night to be highly overstated. I pumped them up to about 110 psi early Sunday, then rode the bike Monday evening without putting in more air. I'm sure the PSI was lower but I doubt it was any lower than 90 and probably higher than that.

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Styrrell

You can really tell the difference between latex tubes and butyl tubes in the ride quality? Color me dubious.

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My latex swim cap make me cut through the water much smoother also :0)

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I think I can. it feels "squishy"
could be in my head but then I don't notice any of the other things people say they notice =)

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My wife says laytex doesn't feel squishy it's what's ..............
Ron W.

> You can really tell the difference between latex tubes and butyl tubes in the ride quality?

Yes

> Color me dubious.

Color me certain.

How are you certain? Pumped to the same pressure with the same wheels and the same tires, I'm guessing any differences in "ride quality" (whatever that is) would be lost in the noise.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

  

Can I put numbers to it? No. But, it does have a better ride quality; much smoother supple ride. It was equivalent from going from Armadillo tires to 4000S in the difference in the ride.

I'm convinced that it is possible to perceive it...but, it also possibly depends on the "quality" of the tire you're putting it inside.

In a low Crr tire, a latex tube will drop the Crr by ~15% (AFM's testing shows us)...that percentage is going to be much less in some tires with the words "Gatorskin" or "Hardcase" in their names since the casing will be a much higher percentage of the overall "stiffness"...so you'll be much less likely to be able to feel the difference in those cases.

If you've read my 404 FC clincher review, you'll see that I reported that as they were delivered to me (with Tangente tires and butyl tubes) I thought the wheels felt "dead". It wasn't until I decided to swap out the butyl tubes for latex (on a hunch) that they "nearly literally 'came alive' " (Hi styrrell! :-) in my opinion.

It's my (pure) speculation that the common refrain of "better ride quality" of tubulars over clinchers is the direct result of the fact that most "high quality" tubular tires have latex tubes sewn up inside of them while VERY few people (especially as a percentage of riders) ever use a latex tube inside of a clincher. I recall Slowman himself commenting that Open Corsa CX tires with latex tubes inside of them (to paraphrase) "felt just like tubulars!" after trying that combo out for the first time.

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Latest indy magazine test I saw showed 4000s at the top of the heap for least rolling resistance. kind of frosted me because Ive got them on both bikes but had just two days before ordered some evo open corsas based on older tests that pitted vittorias against 4000 (not s). test indicates that clinchers are now notably faster than tubulars, at least good clinchers.
ah well, at least Ive got latex.

Source? Link?

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The link is via conti but it's not their test...
Here ya go:
http://www.conti-online.com/...rtest_gp4000s_en.pdf

That report has been out for a couple of years now...for some reason, the Tour guys have a hard time getting a Vittoria to roll fast in their roller tests, unlike other folks who test on rollers as well (myself included).

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I ride the same roads 3x a week at lunch - Cherry Creek State Park in Englewood, CO. Rough road surface with bumps (concrete joints) every 3-4 seconds. Its a fantastic place to have for safety, but the road conditions are poor. Changing to latex tubes made a noticeable improvement in ride comfort. The high frequency vibrations from the road are dulled and the bumps have less impact. I run 105 back 100 front and weight 175.


Of all the things we spend money on in cycling, latex tubes are a no brainer to see if you like them.


My largest concern with using them were flats due to improper installation. Advice on this forum got me comfortable with proper installation. I have about 3 weeks on them with no issues.


Mine (mich latex) lose about 15-20lbs of pressure over 24 hours.