"IMO many triathletes should be doing something like this over the winter."

Why?

I did it last winter and started doing it again for the off season this past weekend.. so sore today.

It is a great way to help get through the winter..

"Why? "

Because fitness can be more than just about swimming, cycling and running?

"Because fitness can be more than just about swimming, cycling and running?"

Well, that's very existential of you, but doesn't really answer the question of why many triathletes should be doing it.

Because we are not pros and we enjoy looking good and not like sticks. Or so my fiancee says

is WTC adding pullups now? WTF

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"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

"IMO many triathletes should be doing something like this over the winter."

Why?”

Because the economy is still pretty bad and even the Orthopedists need the money….
+++++++++++++

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Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

That sounds suspiciously like weight training which, as the collective ST wisdom will tell you, is an absolute waste of time.

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Live long and surf!

" why many triathletes should be doing it. "

Maybe you'll enter an arm wrestling contest one night and those endurance cyclist/runners arm muscles just won't cut it.

Or you could be over 55 and wanting to slow down the loss of muscle mass that occurs as we age.

"Ab ripper"

'nuff said right there.

I think a better way to phrase your last statement would be "I think triathletes who aren't solely concerned with their tri-specific fitness" or something along those lines. I've been down the same road you are on right now with regards to weight training/P90x/Crossfit/etc. discussions on this forum. Been blasted by Paulo and others but I probably fall into the same category as you. I don't get paid to do triathlons. I don't have the running ability of Paulo, Jordan, BarryP, or any other rabbits on here. Never have, never will. Could probably beat any of them in a 100m race any day of the week but triathlon runs aren't 100m. I know that a 10:30 IM would be excellent for me and probably be above my genetic potential and/or above my willingness to put in that amount of tri work. Paulo and Jordan probably wouldn't want to get in the water if they felt like they would cross the line in 10:30. This argument will never die. I simply choose to lift weights b/c I like being physically strong. It is something that, when I need it for my job, I need it. No amount of SBR will help me in those situations. Same thing with my Jiu-Jitsu training. I can lift weights all day long but that doesn't translate 100% to the same strength on the mat. Sport-specific training is and always will be the best way to excel at a specific sport. GPP, as offered by Crossfit or P90X to some extent, is great for the average person who doesn't have anything to train for and simply wants to be fit. But P90x and Crossfit don't make you SBR faster. I would imagine that those who see gains in improvement from weight training in the SBR times are seeing it b/c of recovery time away from the SBR but not b/c of the weight training. For you and I, and others on this forum, it may seem strange that someone would not want to be able to do a few pull-ups but those same people who aren't spending time in the gym are probably putting in more SBR training than we are and probably have better times. You simply need to be able to decide what trade-off you are willing to accept.

"Maybe you'll enter an arm wrestling contest one night and those endurance cyclist/runners arm muscles just won't cut it."

More likely that I'll enter a triathlon contest one day and those beach muscles just won't help.

Who said Paulo can run?

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Eric - "Train Smart, Race Smart, Finish Strong"

I know his best IM time and I know my best IM time. Compared to me...he can run long distance much better than I can.

Why?

1. Because you will will become more flexible, which most triathletes could use more of.
2. Because it works your core, which most triathletes could use more of.
3. Because it works on your balance and coordination. Always a plus.
4. Because it is a change of pace from the daily swim, bike, run.
5. Because most triathletes could use some strength training.
6. Because it saves you time, since you can workout from home.
7. Because it saves you money over a gym membership.
8. Because if you do the program, you will be in better overall shape than when you began (Flexibility, Core, Strength...)

I'd say there's a pretty sizable portion of the endurance community that could stand to lose a bit of body fat and train themselves to eat correctly.

If you're interested in doing either of those, then P90X is a good fit for you.

I speak from personal experience.

My before pic:



My after picture:

Damn,

That is a pretty big difference. Way to go.

So your cat did the program as well. :)

If you need any advice or encouragement, consider me a resource!

Did anyone else LOL at the cat creepin' in the background of BOTH pictures!? hahahah

Good job though. I've done several P90x workouts and they are no joke.

You mirror my son's change in physique. P90X is an amazing system.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

My wife as been doing it for several months. Looks like a great workout to me. Keep with it.

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Train safe & smart
Bob

Thanks! I needed a good laugh before I went to bed.

To the guy who posted his before and after pics, great job!

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Team Endurance Nation

didn't know your opinion was universal to everybody. multisport is about being the fittest athlete you can. i like having the strength that endurance training doesn't offer. that isn't such a ridiculous idea is it?

the three elements of fitness are,

1-cardio
2-strenght training
3- stretching

P90X offer those three.

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Formely stef32

MUSCLE CONFUSION!!!!!

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_____________________________

That's why I wear my Road I.D. while driving my Ford with Sync technology

Is your fiance a dude? Lots of dudes are into the Crossfit look.

If you mean multisport as in triathlon than no the best multisport athlete is the one that goes the fastest, you don't get time deducted for having abs.

you mean the collective ST wisdom mafia

 
Because most triathletes couldn't do a pullup to save their life, is one reason. I wouldn't say P90X, specifically, is required...but a little cross training goes a long way IMO.[/reply]

Many Kenyans can't do a pullup either, and they can faster than most people on earth.

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Chris

1. Because you will will become more flexible, which most triathletes could use more of.

Why exactly?

2. Because it works your core, which most triathletes could use more of.

Abs aren't your core, unless you topple backwards on a regular basis. Lots of other things involved which have nothing to do with the abs.

3. Because it works on your balance and coordination. Always a plus.
4. Because it is a change of pace from the daily swim, bike, run.

Which is constructive to triathletes how exactly? Maybe swimming, biking, running faster slower is the only change of pace that is required.

5. Because most triathletes could use some strength training.

Why, exactly?

6. Because it saves you time, since you can workout from home.

You can't do other short exercises from home? Like running? Or cycling?

7. Because it saves you money over a gym membership.

Why would you have a gym membership?

8. Because if you do the program, you will be in better overall shape than when you began (Flexibility, Core, Strength...)

Define "in shape". Even junkies have ripped abs. Triathletes aren't healthy/fit? Can't do stretching after a swim/bike/run?

The more I hear about the virtues of what "core" is supposed to do for people it verges on beings snake oil. Not to mention the sheer ignorance if what actually the "core" involves. And the strength argument.... oh for a dead horse.

REALLY?

---

2011 Cannondale Caad10
2008 Cannondale 29er 2
2011 Felt Da

This is simply another one of those topics, like politics, abortion et al, that no matter how many points are made by either side it it all comes down to personal choice. Strength train, or don't strength train. Personally strength training bores me to death, the things I already do keep me in fine shape. As for pullups, when I was heavily into rock climbing, I had a huge pullup workout I did twice a week, regular, weighted, unevens, and a few more. Is there irrefutable evidence that strength training will make you a faster triathlete? Well I can tell you that I've beaten many very muscular guys half my age, so I'll just stick with swim, bike, run, surf.

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___________________________________________________
I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.

P90x causes hair loss ? :0)

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Slowtwitch bitchist place on planet earth

Fun fact: Maren (German Potato Soup girl), spent most of her film career in hardcore porn (1998 - 2005).

Now you are ready for some serious snow shoveling.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I considered that and Insanity but settled into Crossfit after my research was finished. Suffering with fellow extremists is better IMHO because if your heart stops there is always someone there to begin chest compressions. This brings me to rule # 3 of Crossfit:

Always introduce yourself to people you work out with. They might be the one to revive you after you bonk and lose your pulse.

Good work on the bod, keep it up!

Gravity

Great - now that's all I'm gonna be able to think about the next time I do chest & back.

BTW, Audra from the yoga video is hot.

Ah ha ha ha! I read up on that, watched some videos and... stuff. Turns out it's true. I also didn't realize that P90X is from 2003, after which Maren apparently did some more movies.

Tapeworm,

You really speak from ignorance. P90X includes Kenpo, Yoga and Plyometric workouts, all of which have moves that engage your core. I never said that the ab ripper was the only core component to P90X.

You really need to educate yourself on triathlon training. Maybe you should go to the library and pick up books written by some of the greats of triathlon like Scott Tinley, Dave Scott, Mark Allen, the list goes on ... You will find that most of these books include chapters dedicated to strength training.

How many triathletes actually stretch after doing a swim or bike workout? I would say that the percentage is pretty low. Unless these triathletes are doing yoga or have dedicated time where they stretch, they are probably not as flexible as they should be.

I recently attended an event where Chris McCormick was talking about downtime from swim, bike, run. He basically said you need to step away from that type of training every year to refocus, enjoy life and to give your body a rest from those exercises.

I have been doing triathlons since 1988. I considered myself pretty fit until I started doing the P90X videos. What I have found is I am not as flexible as I should be, my core isn't as strong as it should be and I am not as strong as I would like to be. Now I am sure I could become more flexible, increase core strength and overall strength by doing various exercises, but P90X takes the guess work out of the equation. Just do the videos and you will achieve results. Now if you are worried about getting too bulky, just do lighter weights and higher reps. I don't think I have run across anyone who has gained weight doing the videos. Everyone I have talked to has lost weight and were in better shape.

"I recently attended an event where Chris McCormick was talking about downtime from swim bike, run. He basically said you need to step away from that type of training every year to refocus, enjoy life and to give your body a rest from those exercises."

Easy for him to say!

now i won't say P90X is the "make me faster" training that one should or should not be doing. I have a set of videos, in fact i have had them for 4years. i haven't had a time that i felt like using them, yet.

i am willing to bet the exercise's in the video's didn't make this guy faster. but, i am willing to be he CAN be faster after doing this program. look at him, his power/weight has to have improved. i doubt he got weaker and he has gotten lighter or at least has changed his BMI.

i would guess the Hair cut alone is worth :30sec/mile.....

do P90X or don't..... it's your call.

i would think i could benifit from doing the work outs....... of course i could likely benifit the same from a focus on my nutrition.


it does look like the cat liked the old version of him better though

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Tim

I wasn't aware that Tinley, Scott, Allen, et al. were exercise physiologists or even had the appropriate background to recommend training to others. Just because they did it doesn't mean that everyone (or even anyone) else should do it. "Appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy. And, as many here have pointed out ad nauseum, when anyone here puts in the hours and has the years of base that those guys have, then they can knock themselves out in the weight room for that final .1%. There are reasons why some of the best in the world in swimming, biking and running got there without strength training.

Point out any place that flexibility is a limiter in triathlon. Anyone can get in an aerodynamic position on the bike: it's holding it for extended periods of time that is the issue, and that's due to endurance, not flexibility.

This nonsense about "core" is, well, nonsense. I think you need to understand better the concept of specificity. You don't need flexibility, "core strength" or overall strength to excel at triathlon.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Excellent results! Just wondering - Did you follow the P90X nutrition guide as well? (What kind of soup you got?)

I think that P-90X as a stand alone generic program is not bad, but it is not what I would recommend to triathletes. It is not a bad choice as a single exercise program for a person who has limited time though. For triathletes, especially those with limited time, I would focus more on basic strength and forget about all the metabolic conditioning and cardio type sets in P90X. Triathletes have plenty of cardio fitness already. However, none of this will make a triathlete go faster (and may make them slower) but will help with activities of everyday living like carrying stuff and not having the upper body of a 16 year old girl ; ).

Ken, you say that staying in the aero position is not a function of flexibility or "core strength but instead it is a function of endurance.

I can only assume you are talking about muscular endurance which of course comes from actively engaging those muscle groups. Whether someone chooses to use P90X, or some other form of training to achieve it the end result is the same.

A strong, flexible core is going to give you the ability to A) get lower - therefore possibly more aero and thus faster, and B) the ability to stay there longer while still maintaining power output.

A strong, flexible core is more than just having a six pack, and that I think is TRI's point about P90X, it gives you a complete body workout in several different areas.

Disclaimer: I have never done the P90X program but am familiar with the workouts, and I do come from a Kinesiology/Biomechanics background.

So where did 'kdw' go after 'nicetri' posted the pictures of his change in body shape? did he crawl back in the hole he came out of ?

Looks like a little resistance work made a big change in nicetri's overall triathlon shape to me, great job nicetri btw.

you should see how "flexible" my core is right now....... it's down right Mushy!

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Tim

Klehner,

I would take the advice of Scott, Tinley, Allen over most exercise physiologists.

Flexibility is certainly a limiting factor in swimming, getting in a better aero position on the bike and providing a good and efficient gate in running.

You most certainly use your core in the swim, while maintaining your areo position on the bike and maintaining good form on the run.

An athlete who is good in triathlon who is not flexible and doesn't have a strong core, will perform even better if they have both. Also they will probably reduce the chance of injury.

Having a stronger core will allow you to maintain your form longer (swim, bike, run). That alone should allow for better times.

I stepped into this farther than I wanted last year when I was new to ST.

I have seen so many threads come on here pertaining to strength training/crossfit.

Same thing every time.

You can take everything to extremes, but, IN MY OPINION, strength training focused on your core, chest, lats, and legs can be a valuable tool for triathlon. It is not something where you want to get big, but you can get stronger.

At times of the year when you are really training hard, you are going to lose some muscle tissue, why not work on keeping it developed during other parts of the year?

Mine too! haha

Anyone can get in a good aero position, assuming normal health and range of motion. The only restrictions occur when the hip angle gets so small that the thighs hit the chest, and that's not a flexibiliity issue. Staying there for more than a couple of minutes doesn't require any more flexibility or strength: it requires simple endurance. The force requirements are really small, just like pedaling itself. Being massively strong won't help, and may hinder endurance performance (as has been pointed out, again, ad nauseum).

Here's a challenge for you. I never lift. I do swim a lot, though. I'll wager, without any objective evidence behind it, that I can beat any similarly sized lifter type in a contest of lat pulldowns, where the winner is the one who can move more total weight in ten minutes. I'll put up my endurance against strength any day.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Time between pictures? And besides training I assume you must have changed diet aswell?

"So where did 'kdw' go after 'nicetri' posted the pictures of his change in body shape?"

What do you think nicetri's pictures proved that I needed to reply to? All I did in this thread was ask why the OP thought that many triathletes should do P90X. He posted his (mostly faulty) assumptions, so there isn't much to say.

I've learned that you don't convince the strength training crowd that it doesn't help them improve as triathletes, so why try?

Lifter type? what the heck is that?, people are talking about strenght training. Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is, what is so hard to understand about that. I think some in the ST crowd here need to wake up and smell the roses a little bit.

Funny, cuz I "only" ride my bike, which accomplishes the body fat loss perfectly. As far as eating right goes, I'm not sure why you would need a series of videos for that. I just eat veggies :)

Your "after" picture looks like a chubby version of me, without any weight training. No pullups required, and I don't even swim! (although I can do 6-8 pullups untrained, whenever I want).

-Physiojoe

edit: nice cat though. she looks like mine, great cat. who I adopted when she was pregnant a few years ago.

---

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

A lifter-type is someone who targets particular muscles through, say, P90X or lifting.

If you believe that " Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is," then you've got some serious self-education to do.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is, what is so hard to understand about that."

I could post links to scientific studies showing this isn't the case, but you would accuse me of resorting to trickery.

So when you are pushing down or pulling up the pedals on a bike it is better to have weak muscles then?

http://www.bikeforums.net/...wfull=1#post11223774

Actually if you're about 10 you have enough strength in your muscles to be a pro cyclist.... so i doubt your muscles are too "weak"

'Actually if you're about 10 you have enough strength in your muscles to be a pro cyclist.... so i doubt your muscles are too "weak"'

So when the 'Pros' are averaging 450watts in a short TT, a 10 year old would be able to keep up to them, OK then, keep telling yourself that.

"So when you are pushing down or pulling up the pedals on a bike it is better to have weak muscles then? "

Nope.

If you cant connect the dots, it's the aerobic capacity that is huge in the pros- their CO, SV, mito density, blah blah blah is what maintains the 450 watts, not strength.

If someone could not pedal a bike at 450 watts for a few seconds then maybe you would have a point?

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

i think he was aiming at the STRENTH being available in the 10year old..... the endurance to hold that stregth is what has improved over time.

the force to move your own (lean) body mass is fairly small thanks to the linkages/leverages of your bicycle.

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Tim

Look, you can either continue being obtuse, or you can educate yourself. Frankly, I hope you are in M40-44 and continue to lift. A lot.

From one of Mike Prevost's posts the other day:

----------snip----------------

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1998 Sep;38(3):201-7.Correlations between peak power output, muscular strength and cycle time trial performance in triathletes. Bentley DJ, Wilson GJ, Davie AJ, Zhou S.

School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University,
Lismore, NSW, Australia.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the peak power output (Wmax),
peak oxygen uptake (VO2peak), lower limb muscular strength and cycling time (CT)
during a short course triathlon race. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: The study involved a
cross-sectional analysis involving both physiological and biomechanical
variables. SETTING: Testing was performed at the exercise physiology and
biomechanics laboratory, School of Exercise Science and Sport Management,
Southern Cross University, Lismore, Australia. PARTICIPANTS: Ten male
triathletes who had been endurance cycle training for a minimum of 12 months
prior to the commencement of the study. MEASURES: Subjects completed a maximal
incremental cycle test as well as a series of muscular function tests including
a 6-s cycle test, a concentric isoinertial squat jump as well as an isokinetic
leg extension test performed at velocities of 60 degrees (s-1, 120 degrees (s-1
and 180 degrees.s-1. In addition, each subject also participated in a triathlon
race of distance 1.5 km swim, 40 km cycle and 10 km run. RESULTS: A significant
correlation existed between CT and absolute VO2 peak and Wmax. However, no
significant correlations were found between the results of the muscular function
tests and the incremental cycle test as well, as CT during the triathlon race.
CONCLUSIONS: Wmax and WDmax are useful variables in assessing cycle performance in triathletes. However, the importance of muscular strength of the lower limbs may be minimal in overall cycle performance during a short course triathlon
race.


Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Jun;31(6):886-91.The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Bishop D, Jenkins DG, Mackinnon LT, McEniery M, Carey MF.

Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane,
Australia. dbishop@wais.org.au

PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance
training on endurance performance and selected muscle characteristics of female
cyclists. METHODS: Twenty-one endurance-trained, female cyclists, aged 18-42 yr,
were randomly assigned to either a resistance training (RT; N = 14) or a control
group (CON; N = 7). Resistance training (2X x wk(-1)) consisted of five sets to
failure (2-8 RM) of parallel squats for 12 wk. Before and immediately after the
resistance-training period, all subjects completed an incremental cycle test to
allow determination of both their lactate threshold (LT) and peak oxygen
consumption VO2). In addition, endurance performance was assessed by average
power output during a 1-h cycle test (OHT), and leg strength was measured by
recording the subject's one repetition maximum (1 RM) concentric squat. Before
and after the 12-wk training program, resting muscle was sampled by needle
biopsy from m. vastus lateralis and analyzed for fiber type diameter, fiber type
percentage, and the activities of 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase and
phosphofructokinase. RESULTS: After the resistance training program, there was a
significant increase in 1 RM concentric squat strength for RT (35.9%) but not
for CON (3.7%) (P < 0.05). However, there were no significant changes in OHT
performance, LT, VO2, muscle fiber characteristics, or enzyme activities in
either group (P > 0.05). CONCLUSION: The present data suggest that increased leg
strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained,
female cyclists.

If by "short" you mean about 3-5 seconds, then yes, a 10 year old would be able to do that. In fact, I'd put my money on the 10 year old, given that both he and the pro are putting out the same wattage (your 450W) and the 10 year old likely has a lower CdA. :-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I will cause I'm right.

Surely there must be better research then something conducted 11-12 years ago. And did you see the phrase 'may be minimal'?, means that they are not even sure of the research. Also, 'minimal' actually means some amount, not nothing, and every little bit helps, unless you are not sweating the details of trying to improve overall.

Ask yourself why the best 4000m pursuiters look more like skinny Tour riders than they do massive track sprinters. The latter are "stronger" than any Pro Tour sprinter who, in turn, are far stronger than the TTers. It's because "strength" has nothing to do with speed beyond tens of seconds.

Do you understand that it takes less than 50 pounds of force to pedal at 400W, a force that healthy ten year olds can muster?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Just because it was done 10 years ago doesn't make it wrong. But good job ignoring the second study that concluded "CONCLUSION: The present data suggest that increased leg
strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained,
female cyclists. "

Suggest? That's the best they can do? No wonder nobody believes these studies.

:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Maybe since its only females we should ignore the whole study.

I google image surfed Maren and couldn't find any naked picks...speaking of naked chick weightlifters have you ever seen what the steroids do to their vajayjays, it's freakish.

So you are saying that you believe all these studies that are done in only a few months?, the researchers are living in a dreamworld if they think they can gain conclusions from such a short study. Imagine if they worked in the medical field testing drugs for just a few months to see the effects, we all would be dead.

Chris Mccormack " I gain much more benefit out of yoga and core work than anything I can build in the gym, and with time my training moved in this direction." hmm flexibility and core work. I wonder where I heard that before.

Chris Carmichael "A strong core will help you get into a neutral, horizontal body position and eliminate dragging the lower half of your body through the water. It will also ensure that you maintain your position on the bike and allow for efficient transfer of power to the pedals. A stable torso will help you maintain your pelvis in a neutral position, which will allow you to maximize your stride length."

Maren Beautte.

We're talking some DVDA stuff...

NSFW!!!

No, I believe that these studies confirm what is seen in the real world: cycling speed is correlated with endurance, not strength. Reference my question to you about 4000m pursuiters.

Are you Frank Day?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I am on week 11 of P90X. I started it last winter but broke my elbow and had to stop.
I think it is a great fitness activity. By that I mean if general conditioning, strength, flexibility are you limiters- it will help you. May also help someone who needs to lose a few pounds to do that (though weight is better controlled through diet than training). Probably good for people who live in a true winter climate with a true off-season
But it will hurt your cycling in terms of power output (at least in short run) and probably do the same to running and swimming. I am noticing my climbing power to be down by 5-10% this winter.
I attribute that to spending 5+ hours doing strength work that really stresses my muscles- P90X keeps you moving and engaged the eintire workout.
Previous winters I would do gym twice per week for maybe 1 hour per session- and not getting near as much work in as during a P90X session.
So- has it helped me in terms of cycling performance? No- at least not yet. Do I look Like Scotsman Willy on the Simpsons when I tear open my shirt and show some muscle?- yes I do.
I think I could have made way bigger strength and muscle gains if I had not been increasing my cycling at the same time.
Do I suggest doing it? As I said it depends on what is holding you back. I do suggest chilling out on the other sports. Continue to ride, run, and/or swim but realize that they will take a back seat until P90X is over for you.

What a crock. How about "Sufficient time in the water will help you get into a neutral, horizontal body position..."? Phelps became a world class swimmer not by developing a strong core out of the water, but by swimming a bazillion yards before he hit puberty. You're really citing CC as an expert on swimming?

"Efficient transfer of power"? Seriously? Go look at some of those 100km+ breakaways in the TdF, and note how many guys can ride at 40kph+ for hours with their arms draped on the top of their bars, not even bothering to hold onto anything. Again: the power requirements in cycling are so low as to need no steenkin' power transfer.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

The time between pictures is approximately 10 months, but one sequence of P90X. I followed the workout and nutrition guide perfectly, and had great results. Thanks for all the encouraging words!

I am now really in tune with what types of foods work well for my body, and which ones are "rocket fuel" that will spike my blood sugar and cause me to crash. I never knew that before P90X.

However, the one aspect of the program that is often overlooked is its ability to teach the user to REALLY push themselves. I had been involved in cycling and triathlon for 4 years in my "before" picture and always did ok. However, I really learned to push myself harder than I ever thought I could through the P90X workouts.

Additionally, when I really start to suffer, I tell myself "you can do anything for 30 seconds" as motivation (*excerpt from one of the videos*).

I must admit though, that I am not a fan of lifting weights and P90X to improve performance in triathlon by gaining muscular strength. I think the true benefit (as most have mentioned) is from better body composition, stretching and flexibility, and learning about "how" to eat.

Man I should get a hold of Lance and tell him to cut out the weights.

You are a couple of years late. When Armstrong resumed his pro cycling career after retiring, he dropped the lifting. Just ask Bruyneel:


Go figure.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Suggest? That's the best they can do? No wonder nobody believes these studies.

Careful science v. confident infomercial. Guess who looses?

Ken, you said it, a bazillion meters, miles, what ever, of course you can adapt with all that time, but guess what, no one on this forum has a bazillion hours, with the exception of a few pros. You are now thinking that you know more then the elite coaches of the world?, or pro tri competitors?, come one, now you are losing any credibility that you might have had.

You win.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Klehner,

Clearly you are missing the point. CC doesn't say swimming a gazillion laps will not make for a better swimmer, he is stating, pretty obviously, that having a stronger core will help you achieve a better position. It will also help in the rotation phase of the swim. Oh and since you brought up Phelps lets see what he has to say.

"I'm also doing a couple of boxing exercises that work more on my core body strength but also (replicate) movements I would have in the pool."

The boxing exercises, he says, help him improve his form, tempo and muscle memory. "You have to really use your hips and your whole body to get everything into it," he says.

His goal is improvement in his core body strength. "Your core has to be so much stronger," he says. "The only way to really get that is trying different exercises and keeping things more interesting and more exciting. That's the only way you're going to get better."

Yes it makes so much more sense to do something that phelps is doing to gain that extra .01 percent, than doing the 99.99 percent that got him to the point where he needs that .01 percent. Which hmmm let me think here is probably SWIMMING!

The thing is you can do both. I am not talking P90X now, just core and flexibility training. The people who do, probably are in better shape and get injured less.

If you cannot do a bazillion miles, you should at least do as much as you can (relatively speaking, in order to increase performance).

Which do you think will get you closest to the results you would be able to get from a "bazillion" miles:

Xmiles+core/p90x

OR

Xmiles+more miles

?

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

YIKES!!!, lol

I think perhaps she went on the PX90 cause she NEEDED to tighten up her core....

and by core I mean sphincter

PS most chicks like a dude with some muscles and life in general is a contact sport, maybe one day you have to protect yourself or your loved ones

some overall badassedness is a good thing in my book, but wtf do I know?

'Which do you think will get you closest to the results you would be able to get from a "bazillion" miles:

Xmiles+core/p90x

OR

Xmiles+more miles'

Well, lets take cycling for instance, I think that 90-120 minutes of core and strength work per week is going to go a lot further then adding only 90-120 minutes extra time to ride training when you are already riding 12-20 hours per week like most dedicated cyclists are doing. Why do you think Chris Charmichel and other coaches preach that. Not really that hard to undrstand I do not think.

Key word: "I think." Who was it that was criticizing the research as not being confident? Just merely thinking something, without any evidence, surely is worse.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Xmiles+core/p90x

OR

Xmiles+more miles'

Well, lets take cycling for instance, I think that 90-120 minutes of core and strength work per week is going to go a lot further then adding only 90-120 minutes extra time to ride training when you are already riding 12-20 hours per week like most dedicated cyclists are doing. Why do you think Chris Charmichel and other coaches preach that. Not really that hard to undrstand I do not think.[/reply]

Key word: "I think." Who was it that was criticizing the research as not being confident? Just merely thinking something, without any evidence, surely is worse.

-Physiojoe[/reply]

OK, you got me on that one, I will change that from 'I think' to Chris Charmichel and other elite coaches say it to be true.

Here's a little challenge, given my alleged ignorance on this subject, quantify the muscles invoked in "core" strength, how do we quantify that the core is weak and how do we really train said core muscles?

This should be interesting.

As for pro athlete or coach endorsement... hell there are those that endorse Powerbands.

Paulo is an elite tri coach. What is his opinion of strength training as something that benefits endurance training? Andy Coggan is a leading exercise physiologist and elite cyclist, though not a coach. What does Dr. Coggan think of strength training as an aid to endurance performance?

A better question for you to ask yourself than what Ken thinks he knows or doesn't know relative to CC is "which one is trying to get you to pay money for his ideas?".

I'll just end this by saying that I'll follow scientific evidence and you can follow a few coaches subjective opinions.

Wanna talk elite coaches? Aldo Sassi's athletes included Basso, Evans, Rogers, Cioni, etc.

"I think that all strength training for the legs should be done on the bike."- Sassi, (RIP).

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

The age of the research has nothing to do with its validity. The comments you make here show that you know nothing about how to read or interpret research. Some people are just not going to be able to learn much because they keep gettin in their own way. Oh well...

This has been an interesting thread. I just started P90X a week a ago as a way to mix up my off season training. I think it's great and just what I was looking for to work on basic strength in an interesting way. It's tough, that's for sure, but just what I was looking for to have a little variety. It's nice not to stagger downstairs at 5am and face my treadmill or computrainer for a while!

YIKES!!!, lol

I think perhaps she went on the PX90 cause she NEEDED to tighten up her core....

and by core I mean sphincter


Still giggling like a school kid at this... :D :D

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

So does that mean you are old and haggard ?

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

The difference is that you have no research in which to believe.

Put any elite P90X stud in the pool with me or monty, two 50+ geezers, and they'll be crying like a baby inside of 10 minutes. If they haven't drowned by then.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

If you want a direct comparison between my workouts and yours, go to the gym and then join me on my 3 hour trainer ride this morning with long tempo at 85% FTP.

I know those 3 hours won't "actually stress [my] muscular system," but it sure will make me a hell of a lot faster :)

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

That's great - I'm sure you're a fantastic swimmer. However, if you measure one's fitness by weighing strength, flexibility, and endurance equally, than that Tony Horton dude is probably in better shape than you are. I agree with you that your average triathlete is a fool if he thinks P90X will make him better at S, B, or R, but that doesn't means programs like P90X don't have a lot of value if your goal is overall fitness. I've done multiple ironmans, ultras, 5K+ open water swims et al where all I've focused on is my endurance fitness. But combining P90X with a meager 5-10 hours/week of my normal endurance workouts has made me feel better than I ever have before...it's like a light bulb has gone off in my head - wow,there really is a lot of value to strength training. I'm not delusional enough to think I could match my PR in any endurance event right now, but I could care less because I feel so damn good. Not to mention, my wife actually digs my upper body. She could give 2 rips about my mile splits or 10K pool sessions, but damn if she doesn't keep talking about my new biceps and lats. Oh yeah, and all those other activities that I love to do, surfing and skiing especially...the change in performance has been profound. So care to spend a week with me in Vail this winter or in Hatteras on the water next summer? We'll see whose crying then.

I was responding to the absurd claim that triathlete workouts are not stressful or as hard as these P90X workouts, not the definition of "fitness." Fitness is a measure of an organism's adaptation to its environment. My environment doesn't need flexibility or much strength, yet I am fit for what I do (triathlons and "life"). I'm guessing that Tony Horton (whoever that is) is not as fit as am I in my environment.

I agree with you that something like P90X is probably excellent for achieving their definition of fitness, and that most people would consider those adherents to be more "fit" than typical triathletes.

As for your wife: arms are for show, legs are for go. :-)

I'd love to ski with you for a week in Vail. I prefer glades. I've skied Washington (Crystal Mtn, etc.), Utah (Park City, Alta, Snowbird), Colorado (Snowmass, Ajax, Keystone, A-Basin, Breckenridge, Copper), New Mexico (Taos), Wyoming (Jackson Hole), New England (Okemo, Jay Peak, Killington, etc.), and Austria (St. Anton, etc.). I, the wife and the two kids are free over the holidays: PM me your address in Vail and we'll join you. Hope you have room :-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work."


It sounds like you might need to re-evaluate how hard you are training the SBR and start adding some sessions where you are not comfortable and it is not easy to sit on the bike, swim, or run.

Dave Scott does have an exercise physiology degree. :)

Years ago ('80's) I remember reading where one of his routine workouts was running ~ 8 miles, working out at the gym and then running back home......

KLG

Does P90X have specific routines dedicated to plyometrics?

When is enough, enough?

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___________________________________________________
I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.

If those 3 hours don't stress your "muscular system" what is being stressed?

Does P90X have specific routines dedicated to plyometrics?

Yes, once a week there is a Plyometric session. P90X has 3 phases. Each Phase is broken down into 3 hard weeks followed by 1 easy week. Now depending on how you want to workout, P90X can be further broken down into 3 types of workouts (Classic, Doubles or Lean). I am currently doing the Classic.

Phase 1 of the Classic for the 1st 3 weeks looks something like this
Chest & Back, Ab Ripper X
Plyometrics
Shoulders & Arms, Ab Ripper X
Yoga X
Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Kenpo X
Rest or X Stretch

You are focusing on ab work 4 times a week (3 ab ripper sessions + 1 Yoga belly session)
You are using weights 3 times a week (many of the weight sessions however only involve body weight)
You are focusing on serious stretching 2 times a week, plus 2 times a week your doing a lot of ballistic type moves/stretches (Plyometrics & Kenpo)
Every workout consists of warm-up and warm-down stretching.
The longest workout is Yoga X (1:30:00) followed by days that you do the Ab Rippers (1:10:00 - 1:15:00)

So for those na sayers, this is a fantastic overall workout for the body. Most uninformed people think P90X is all about weight lifting and getting huge, it is not. P90X is a total body workout. It works on core, flexibility, strength, balance and many other things that may be lacking in a traditional swim, bike, run routine.

Most people that I have seen who have completed the program have lost weight. For many the weight loss has been dramatic (15+ pounds). Now loosing 10-15lbs is huge in terms of race performance. I have seen a ton of triathletes (Not Pros or Top Age Groupers), who could easily loose more weight to help their performance. I have also seen these same triathletes spend big $ to drop a few ounces or two on their equipment. Now a lot of these same athletes are already doing the swim, bike, run thing and for whatever reason haven't dropped the weight (diet, not training hard enough, not spending enough time training....).

P90X makes it pretty easy to loose the weight. Stick to the program and you will loose body fat, gain muscle and in most cases loose weight. If nothing else you will look great in the end. For those who are concerned with getting too much muscle, do the Lean version of the program where you are only working with weights 2 times a week. During those weight sessions do high reps.

What I really like about P90X is you are constantly working you body out in a different way each day. You learn pretty quickly what your weaknesses are and over the weeks, you can see real improvements. While repetition is definitely a major factor in Triathlon or any sport, utilizing different muscles really helps keep the body from getting injured. That is one of the reasons I prefer to trail run over running on the roads. You utilize many more muscle groups, which in turn, IMO helps to keep the body injury free.

Winter time is a perfect time to do P90X. Many triathletes seem to pack on the pounds during the winter months and P90X will resolve that. Would I suggest doing all of the P90X videos during race season? Probably not. I do think the Yoga X, X Stretch, Ab Ripper and Kenpo X would be fantastic routines to do.

How do you know when your core is strong enough? If 5 hrs a week of P90x is good for your core, why not 10 hrs a week to make your core even stronger? What if your core is already strong enough like mine?

I'd rather not have my weight loose. Seems like it'd jiggle when I run.

How do you know when your core is strong enough? If 5 hrs a week of P90x is good for your core, why not 10 hrs a week to make your core even stronger? What if your core is already strong enough like mine?

How do you know your bike is strong enough? How do you know your run is strong enough? How do you know your swim is strong enough?
If you are getting beat by your competition then maybe your swim, bike, run, core, flexibility, strength or what ever is not good enough. Maybe you will never be good enough.

Tell you what. If you can get through 15 minutes of the ab ripper (its only 15 minutes by the way) and don't have to stop on any of the exercises, then you probably have a pretty strong core and abs to boot. If you have never done it before, you probably will not last through the 1st 3 routine.

You didn't answer my questions.

Regarding the sbr, they are all easily measureable and I'm not fast enough so I keep training.

I don't particularly enjoy core exercises and have no interest in entering core strength competitions so I don't see the benefit in increasing core work endlessly.

I think you missed his point, namely "How do you know your "core strength" is limiting your performance, and thus you should sacrifice some S/B/R time for some "core strength" time?"

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"Go yell at an M&M"

How about they just make core strength its own sport and stop bothering others?

My cardiorespiratory system silly! The primary reason I could not hold 250 watts for 3 hours today (like when I am race fit) is because my heart and mitochondria, etc are not to that level yet.

It doesn't have to do with my muscles, in the strength sense, because my 5 sec power, squatting ability, etc etc does not change throughout that period of getting fitter- probably because those things are related to PCr and not glycolysis, beta oxidation, etc

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Possibly the most astute post in this thread.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Well that and your legs are too weak to push harder longer, maybe a little strength work might help you out a little bit. ;o)

Before you call anyone silly, are not those mitochondria that you are lacking in skeletal muscle? That's why muscular endurance is a silly term; it's redundant. All endurance is muscular in nature. If you're doing a 3 hour ride, I doubt that cardiac output is limiting your performance. It's not like you're at VO2max or your heart gets too tired to keep beating.

I also very much doubt that you are severely taxing your respiratory system since, from what I've read and heard, the primary limiter at VO2max for most people is cardiac output, not respiratory volume, and for a 3 horu ride, you're well below VO2max.

I said nothing about strength being a limiter. I would offer that on a 3 hour ride, most are limited by muscular metabolic fitness, not cardiovascular fitness.

What about a 55 geezer IMAZ finisher who's now doing P90X (and finding it damn tough)? Maybe I'll bulk up and drown anyway.....

Okay, you are old enough to remember the original "Superstars" TV series. Do you remember Joe Frazier in the swimming competition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Great reading in this thread, its hilarious! Someone should be documenting great quotes throughout ST and make a book... maybe call it, "How to De-Pussify America: The HTFU Lifestyle of Slowtwitcher's" All we need is Captain Canada's workout plan from a year or two ago and this thread would be complete.

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The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
Follow the Rat Snake on Twitter

Dforbes - agreed. One of the best posts ever (http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2490974):

CaptainCanada.........

Monday:
AM: wake up, masturbate
PM: clean bike, drive to coffee shop and hang out and look like I am training

Tuesday:
AM: wake up, masturbate
PM: Go to pool, find excuse not to swim, soak in hot tub and flirt with female swimmers. Go to pub and drink beer.

Wednesday:
AM: wake up, think about masturbating, go back to sleep
PM: short run, as in from home to video store and back. Watch three movies. masturbate.

Thursday:
AM: run 28km, bike 180km, swim 5km
PM: spend entire evening bragging online about huge training week

Friday:
AM: masturbate
PM: masturbate

Saturday:
AM: sleep in
PM: watch video of Kona. Count as training.

Sunday:
Scheduled day off.
Cheat and masturbate anyway.

Like yours, this is theoretical. Sometimes I masturbate more.

YESSSSS!!! It is now complete...

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The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
Follow the Rat Snake on Twitter

Perhaps you should have followed my replies and what was said prior. I was replying to someone who suggested endurance athletes should "stress their muscular system" in the gym, instead of aerobic type activity.


-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

I finished an Ironman and started P90X three weeks later. Thought I was in pretty stellar shape after the IM. Apparently not. I've had my a$$ handed to me by P90X. Love it love it love it.

I'm on week 11 of doubles and trying to decide if I want to do another round right away or wait. Thoughts?

I followed your reply where you said that a 3 hour ride did not stress your muscular system. Your reply was wrong.

Actually, I think most of the things that PJoe has been saying have been wrong, no surprise there tho.

Let me rephrase: PCr system, not muscular system. Corrected!

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Uh, no.

CurleyElle,

Awesome job. They have some other videos called P90X+ and Insanity that I hear up the the workout intensity. You may want to give those a try.

A few points of clarification.

I currently lift weights, but not to be fast.
Paulo isn't a "rabbit," but is not a bad runner either. As of a few years ago he'd never done an IM. Has he done one since then?
You might beat me in 100m as I don't know how fast you are, but I wanted to add that I also tripple jumped 38 feet and pole vaulted 11 feet in high school, so I wasn't exactly slow.

; ^ )

Carry on.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I can't believe that I pick this, of all threads, as my first Tri Forum post here on ST, but here goes......

I did my first round of P90X in '05 and it's what got me into racing and triathlon - I loved the competition aspect of it (if you do the program correctly, you are competing with yourself each and every workout - weight lifted, reps, etc.) and wanted more with my improved fitness. I still use the program and other Beachbody programs as they fit into my SBR training plan, and think they are truly fabulous for folks who are interested in this sort of training as an augmentation to SBR.

Two years ago I joined the Beachbody team as a "coach" (hate that term for this job but it's what they use) - I'm a reseller of the products in addition to helping people with choosing the right program, structuring a training plan around SBR, exercise modifications, and motivation/accountability (all of those extra bits are free). TRI mentioned P90X+ and Insanity - two more VERY good programs that could easily fit into a triathletes schedule nicely. ShaunT (creator of Insanity) is coming out with a follow-up called Asylum due to be released in early '11 that has more of a sports specific aspect to it (ladder drills, suicides - the clips remind me of some drills I used to do as a high school basketball player, and some drills my son does in football).

If anyone is interested in hearing more about any of the Beachbody programs, seeing clips of the workouts, etc., feel free to contact me and I can hook you up. For the people here already doing the X or Insanity, I'd love it if you'd consider signing up under me as your coach (all free - I'll just keep you apprised of up and coming releases and can help with any questions or issues you might have). My email is: mspina@beachbodycoach.com, or check out my site (where you can find the product list and info on how to sign up with me): http://www.beachbodycoach.com/mspina

Are you sick of Tony and the X? Looking for a bit of a change? More of a change? What are your goals for the next 2-3 months? Lots of things you could do, including another round, depending on what you want to accomplish and whether or not you can stand to hear Tony's jokes for another few months. :)

 
Hey NiceTriCoaching,

First of all - excellent transformation! I've just recently purchased P90X and just looking to do something different than the normal gym strength stuff.
I know its a bit of an old thread, but do you perhaps have some sort of schedule you used to follow doing P90X and the normal S/B/R training? I'm looking to incorparate P90X in to my reduced Volume training - and would love to get your opinion on how to effectively engage the disciplines.
Thanks in advance buddy!

Oh Joy!!

Apparently, you must shave your chest and stomach.

Oh WOW. Think I have just found my new Triathlon coach,

anybody know how to get in touch with Captain Canada???

This P90X thing - its quite expensive isn't it??? Would it be possible that some people are just advertising for free here on Slowtwitch???

Any way its Wednesday and I got movies to watch and masturbating to get through. Wish me luck.

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