Ah, a fellow bone-on-bone! I found out just a year ago that I had no disc left between S1 and L5 and seriously degenerated vertebrae. I never had back pain, but stabbing pains in my left hip, glute and hamstring........it felt like my hamstring was just going to rip apart. Ortho and spine docs in DFW told me I was done and that runnning was not an option. After 13 years in the sport, I was devastated. I did Memphis in May '08 as my retirement race.

However, I searched around and found Doc V......Alan Villavicenzio (http://www.bnasurg.com/villa.html) who did Simon Lessing's back surgery. After several phone calls and records sent back and forth, I went to Boulder and had a two level microdiscectomy on Aug 4th. V is a sub-10 IM guy who told me that "of course I could run again".

I followed a very slow build-up and took my time getting back, but am pretty much pain-free both in everyday life and training. I still have some weakness in my left leg and definitely more back pain, but nothing compared to before.

I just did my first race since all this started, Memphis in May (of course), and was shocked to win my AG another time. :-D I am told a fusion is inevitable, but when is dependent on my pain tolerance........for now, I am good!

I have a friend who had V do her fusion surgery a month before mine and she just PR'd by 4 minutes at the FL 70.3.

We call ourselves Team V!

Let me know if you need further info or just a pep talk!!

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

thanks for this......

the thing with me is not pain but discomfort....like a feeeling of needing to be unjammed.....and the major symptom is being really really stiff in the mornings or if im on the sofa too long or whatever.....

the stage Im at with local doctors is they referring me to some specialist who will give me his opinion....they were quite open to the fact diff people will have diff opinions on it.....

so till then i guess I have to live with it......you say eventually the L5 and S1 will fuse?

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

Your spine will eventually fuse itself once the disc is gone. My Mom had this condition and didn't even know it until she had x-rays and was told...We think it began in her 20s during her 2nd pregnancy when she experienced a lot of ongoing backpain.

Don't give up hope for your athletic career. You will lose some lower back flexibility but it doesn't need to slow you down in triathlon. You may end up being a bit more rotated forward on your seat than before, so more of a challenge getting comfortable on the soft parts.

If you don't already you will now need to transition to being a forefoot runner. See 'Pose' running and as you are able to begin running again this is the way you need to do it. I'm a degenerative disc patient (since the tender age of 20...22 years going now) and the difference between my old heel striking and my current forefoot striking is...well--striking!

Don't let a Dr. convince you that your running days are over.

Yes, I understand the stiffness, and I have that, but it is nothing compared to the previous pain I had. I couldn't sit or drive for any length of time without pain and running, especially, caused the stabbing pains in my glute and hamstring. I tried ART, chiro, steroid injections, massage......all of it......with no results.

I never had back pain, but was told that it was probably masked by the other pains. Now that they are gone, I do notice more stiffness and achiness in my lower back. But that is very tolerable.

I have been told that I will eventually need surgery to fuse the vertebrae which will provide some space between the bones for the nerves to run through (at least that is how I understand it works). Right now it is virtually bone against bone at L5/S1 and there isn't much to be done about that except fusion. If and when that time comes, I will go to see Dr V. I guess my tolerance for pain will be the determining factor and I am not even close to that yet.

V said that I was not a classic case, as I didn't have a simple herniated disc, just a real mess of crap going on and a degenerative condition. It was not just a take out the part that is hitting the nerve, more a general clean-up of the entire area. I don't really care......it worked and I am training and racing again!

I was pretty discouraged when I was diagnosed and I thought my time as an athlete was over, fortunately, I found a Dr who was able to help me.

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

thanks guys appreciate it......Im feeling really despondent at the moment and I'm moping around here when i should be working....i'm in like a purgatory......I don't have any pain that id associate with nerve issues so at least....but the discomfort is there and getting outta bed im way stiff......the problem is not present sitting down on my Aeron chair working (im a designer) so at least its not like its stopping me from work.....but gardening.....WOW that really really aggravates it!!!!!! In general i find the less i do the worse it gets though.....meaning is im sat around at home as opposed to doing things on my feet etc etc......but running (we only have concrete around here really....running on the beach is not comfortable) is uncomfortable as i feel really tight down there.....it kind of feels like that pressure you get when you have a toothache but its not like pain but pressure.....its like i ant someone to pinch me and let the pressure out to get relief.....

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

Since you're only talking one level, if it comes to surgery consider an artificial disk
instead of fusion.

Pros:
No loss of flexibility
Doesn't just transfer the load to the adjacent disks

Cons:
Newer technology
Not proven to be better for pain than fusion or therapy (I think, haven't read
all the studies recently)

Good luck.

-Jot

thanks for the information everyone....much appreciated...Im sure there will be more people commenting as the days goes by.....hopefully.....yesterday i did a Forrest Gump in frustration, I told my wife i was walking down to her, she was going to the supermarket, and i ended up walking into Spain and about 11 kms later she picked me up in the car.....we're in Gibraltar and we go through a frontier (passport checks etc) to go into Spain.....

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

sorry to bump this up but id like as many people to comment as possible.....

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

hey Stephen..my wife is really curious to see this..can you post a picture of your MRI or send it to kentiger at hotmail.com

thats a very nice offer thanks so much....I will speak to the doctor and get hold of the MRI's......this forum is amazing...it really is.....it'll be some time next week when I can get them UNLESS he's already passed them on to a spinal specialist I'm being referred to as the next step.....

......regardless I WILL take you up on your offer as I want your opinion of course!!!!!!!!!

......the main thing I'm looking at now is how to get round it and do some sports....running is definitely out cos it is uncomfortable as I said.....pushing off the wall in the pool is not good either......biking seems ok when i dont have to push hills i guess......

so can anyone advise me on what to avoid specifically in order not to grind the L5 and S1.....gardening, as i said is a killer....bending down etc like taking out weeds and stuff is a no-no.....funny that, as im not applying much force, its just the position.....thankfully, sitting down at work is fine, no discomfort at all.....almost like its in the perfect no-contact position or something......

what i cant get my head round is how can it be possible I have no disc left and at no point in time have I keeled over in pain etc.....could it be like the analogy of the fish in the goldfish bowl who's water temp is turned up and up over a long period of time and they don't notice it and get used to it.....new goldfish is inserted and he goes "what the f***k, this water's too hot"....well, thats what they'd say if they could talk....hahahahahhahaha....yes I am losing it......when the doctor told be my disc has been "obliterated" I even felt nausea......

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

For me, I went in for hamstring pain and hearing the doctor say "I don't see anything there, but let's talk about your back pain" was a complete and total shock. I had NO back pain. Then he proceeded to show me the bone-on-bone at S1/L5 and the herniation at L4/5. Who knew?

I still do not have what I would consider to be significant back pain.......more a sense of tightness or stiffness.

I do think of the "grinding" aspect of it and wonder what the long-term affects of continuing to S/B/R will be, but for now, thanks to a great surgeon, I am doing 100% better than pre-surg.

I have done some yoga and pretty inventive core work with no issues. What bothers me most is riding in strong winds and swimming with a pull buoy.

I know what you mean about visualizing what is going on back there........kind of like driving a car you know is ready to fall apart and wondering when, not if, it's all going to hell. ;-)

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

It's funny you say that about riding in strong winds, that makes my back flare up too.

I have a compression fracture of my L3 vertbrae (I think that's the one). The fracture is pretty symetrical and healed well, the discs on both sides seem fine as well. I ride a pretty low position on the tri bike and honestly, being stretched out in the aerobars feels very comfortable. But anytime I am grinding, either up a hill seated, or particularly into strong winds, the tightness/pain flares up.

My pain really isn't symmetrical, it's on my right side, I don't think it's my glutes, but not my lower lats either. It's my lower back, to the right of my spain, just above my glute.

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Portside Athletics Blog

I don't think running is out and don't buy the you need to run pose stuff either.

I have a disc herniation and it's no worse with running. In fact it's better to keep moving. Don't stop. Swimming helps. Use a kick board and kick a lot. It strengthens the core.

Try yoga but be very careful with forward and back bends. Finding a skilled teacher is key. Don't give up on triathlon just find more balance in what you are doing. Your back is telling you something. Time to listen.

From what the docs tell me, that is referred pain. Mine is worst on the left side just above my glutes as well. It can be annoying, but is nothing like the hamstring/glute pain before surgery.

The consensus was that I didn't notice the back pain before because the other stuff was worse and took precedence.

Riding in strong winds is the worst!

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

None of the docs I saw suggested surgery because the fracture is pretty clean and the discs on either side seem fine, so I am not sure what surgery would do as there isn't really anything to do surgery on (other than some procedure of using a giant needle to put a bag in the vertbrae, inflate it to restore the height of the vertbrae and then fill it with cement...no thanks).

Any suggestions on what to do for the referred pain? Stretch the area that hurts, or is that useless because it is referred pain? My pain/tightness will radiate down into my right glute if I am riding hard. Running is fine, can run 50+ miles a week with no issues at all, just wish I knew what it was like to ride without back pain. I have a ton of fun riding and was thinking yesterday "Man, this must really be a blast for people whose backs don't feel like they got hit with a baseball bat." Sitting in the car for long periods of time will make that same area, right side, above the glute and then down into the hip, get tight though.

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Portside Athletics Blog

some people with bad bike back pain have had great results with beam bikes.

something to try perhaps

If it doesn't transfer the load, what does it do with it? eat it? There is minimal gain in flexibility that isn't proven to last forever and like you said it is new technology, weak at best.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Same boat L5-S1 and L4-L5 both gone, plus severe arthritic spurring causing irritation of the Foramin. Was told last April and for a while just gave up, gained 20 pounds etc...

Swimming is no problems and I do it almost everyday now.

I found a good chiropractor who does the back decompression, I get it done every 2 weeks now and alternate the other weeks with a modified inversion table at home. I can run 3 to 5 miles now, slow but without pain, I don't speed up or go longer out of fear rather than out of pain.

Biking is still hit or miss if I ride really easy I am fine but if I try to push really hard I will get some pain.

I am going to try a sprint Tri soon just to participate and have fun not to race.

If it doesn't transfer the load, what does it do with it? eat it? There is minimal gain in flexibility that isn't proven to last forever and like you said it is new technology, weak at best.

I wasn't clear.

When you have spinal fusion, you obviously no longer are applying load to that disk. However, the load that was
absorbed by that disk (that is their job after all) now will be absorbed by the disks on either side.

With an artificial disk it can continue to absorb the load, and thus not add load to the adjacent disks.

Does that make more sense? (Not arguing about the merits of the procedures or technology, just
the pro vs. con)

-Jot

I don't think you are using the word absorb properly. Whether or not you go fusion or disc replacement the device isn't going to absorb any load. Metal/metal or metal/UHMWPE isn't going to flex/heat and dissipate energy, it will still transmit it to the adjacent vertebra/discs. I think you mean that a disc replacement should maintain original kinematics. The problem is the disc replacements do not match the original kinematics of the spine so the loads/kinematics will be altered regardless.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

I was told, by the chiro that would have made $$ off of me, that decompression was not an option because there was no disc left to decompress. So much for that.

If the pain is radiating into your glute or down your leg, it is most likely nerve (radicular) pain caused by the nerve root being impacted at the point where it leaves the spine (at least that is how I understaind it). This is what I had and it was worse when I ran or rode with any intensity. Finally, I was unable to run without pretty significant pain.

After the surgery, I was swimming in 3 weeks, riding in 6 and running in 12. All easy and slow for a few months. Just started adding intensity about 6 weeks ago and completely understand the fear that comes with that. I finally entered my "decision-making race"......the one after which I would either continue racing or retire. I was very unsure about how it would go as I had only started to push my body into the "scary" zone.

Happily the race went well and I am optimistic about the future. I take Omega-3's and vitamin D religiously and have found that my need for anti-inflammatories has decreased greatly. I didn't even need any post-race or during the 8 hour drive home.......something that would have been unthinkable prior to my surgery. It even seems to help with the referred pain.

I still have some numbness and a little nerve pain in my lower left leg and foot, but it is pretty minor and very tolerable. When I push hard on the bike, my leg will "buzz" or tingle and I definitely notice some weakness in the leg when running. But again, nothing horrible and certainly tolerable.

Everyday life is much less painful as I can sit and drive without issues.......that was not the case before surgery. Compared to where I was last February........things are pretty good. :-)

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Wow, this really hit home for me. I was hit by a car on my bike July 06. Compression fx of L4, multiplt fx of cervical spine, I was very lucky. I wore a back and neck brace for 6 months. Now, 3 yrs later, most of my issues are lower back pain on the bike. I can run/swim pain free, but after about an hour on the bike , I am really uncomfortable. It is much worse in the wind, and I guess I have some company with that. I am competing again in all distances, but needless to say the longer races/ rides are not as much fun as they used to be. I do think yoga helps , I do hot yoga once a week, and pilates 1-2 times a week. I also have an inversion table , which I think helps but I am not real good about using it a lot. I was also told post accident to have the procedure where they inject cement and bone into the spine to give it height, but I also said no thanks to that. So ,I do a lot of strength training, trying to get the back stronger..and keep hoping that the pain will ease up, my goal for my 3rd Ironman ( Florida), is to ride pain free...any advise would be awesome!!! Good Luck!!!!

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It could always be worse.....

Sounds like you and I are in the exact same spot (I think maybe you meant to reply to me).

My compression fracture is L3 I believe. Running and swimming is fine, but cycling gets uncomfortable after about an hour. I guess there is no magic bullet in terms of a cure, just being diligent about stretching, strengthening, etc.

Being that things get tight after about an hour my desire to do IM distance has kind of faded, have been enjoying training for Half-IM and shorter though as long rides of 2-3 hours are much more comfortable than 5-6 hours. Also, just bought a full-suspension mtn bike and have got into mountain bike a bit and have been enjoying that as well and there is almost no pain there, nice to be able to ride, do some different stuff and have less pain.

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Portside Athletics Blog

ill bring it up again in case any missed it

but Jurgen Zack actually bought out his quintana roo sponsorship so he could ride a softride because it transformed biking for him and his problematic back

a titanflex or similar might be worth looking into for you guys

Yes, you are right, we are in the same boat....Well I always say "it could be worse", but still always looking for a solution. This will probably be my last IM, no sense in beating myself up . May be time for needle point..... na. Thanks for the reply!

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It could always be worse.....

Thanks! Never heard of beam bikes, but will check it out...

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It could always be worse.....

the titan flex guy posts here a lot

http://www.ttinet.com/tf/index.htm

Ok, I'm coming at this from a lay perspective, not claiming to be an expert. Feel free to
correct me:

The disks in your back serve as shock absorbers. As you move, twist, run, etc, they
compress and bulge as is necessary to transfer those forces. For all intents and purposes
the the vertabrae do none of that.

Spinal fusion takes two (or more) adjacent vertabrae and fuses them together. Now
instead of having that disk available to absorb shock any force it would have handled
has to be handled by adjacent disks.

Disk replacement provides a mechanism by where some of that force can still be handled
by the disk as opposed to the adjacent disks.

The technology has been around for a long time. It has also sucked for a long time. :)
The last time I looked at this there were at least 2 companies in the US that were FDA
approved for disk replacement. I think one might even have been for two level.

The studies I looked at, at the time didn't indicate statisticallly better outcomes for
disk replacement vs fusion. Then again, I seem to recall some studies showed that
fusion vs physical therapy had the same average results at two years.

Am I getting something fundamentally wrong here?

-Jot

My name is Jeff and I suffer from back pain.

I've been told that everyone's case is a little different, so you just have to figure out what works for you. I have problems with L4-L5 and L5-S1. I can run without pain, but only after I altered my running posture from what it was before my back problems. I am more of a forefoot striker, and lean forward a little more also. The other thing is that I am more comfortable on a tri bike than a road bike. The first thing a lot of bike fitters will do if you tell them about disc problems is to get you to sit up higher. That doesn't work for me, but I also can't be in a real aggressive tri position.

Sometimes my back hurts, sometimes it is just stiff in the morning, and some times the only pain I have is referred pain in other parts of my body.

For running, I went to see Bobby McGee in Boulder and he worked on my mechanics. It made a world of difference.

I think you just need to wait and see how the injury plays out. Running may eventually be fine, it may not. Same with cycling. Yoga has worked for me, but anything like a back bend is painful.

Your results will definitely differ.

I can run without pain, but only after I altered my running posture from what it was before my back problems. I am more of a forefoot striker, and lean forward a little more also. The other thing is that I am more comfortable on a tri bike than a road bike. The first thing a lot of bike fitters will do if you tell them about disc problems is to get you to sit up higher. That doesn't work for me, but I also can't be in a real aggressive tri position.

I am in the exact same position as you, can run fine, but have transitioned to a slight forward lean and more of a forefoot strike. Was fit on my old tri bike with a relatively slack seat tube angle and high up front when I mentioned I had back issues and was always miserable. Worked on the fit for a while myself and found a steeper STA and lower position up front to be much more comfortable for me. I have since got a P2C and ride it relatively steep and low and am pretty comfortable (low back will begin to tighten up late in a ride or if I ride lots of hills or wind).

I had purchased a road bike last year but ended up selling it. I'd love to have a road bike, but like you, find myself significantly less comfortable than when on a tri bike so I ended up selling the bike. I'll probably give a road bike another shot at some point and try a lot of different frames and fits to find something comfortable as the hills and winding roads up here in Mass would be great for a road bike.

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Portside Athletics Blog

You are talking about an axial load, the artificial disc replacements offer no axial damping whatsoever. What they try to do is retain the kinematics of the spine. I have been out of the industry for 2 years now but I had a conversation with a rep recently and he said another major problem (in addition to others) with artificial's is the inability for revisions. If there is a problem with the initial setup, there is not much you can do. It is very difficult to retract them without causing further complication. I would agree with you that most studies don't show any statistical improvement. Any improvement over the short term is usually negated over the long term. People should exhaust all other treatment options first.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Thanks for elaborating.

-Jot

This is what I was told as well. That there the option of a re-do or replacement just isn't there due to the delicate and fragile nature of the area and the amount of cutting that needs to be done to achieve access. The exact words were "the chances of you bleeding out are just too great".

About the steep bike position, a lot has been written about the relative comfort of a more steep postion for those with back problems. I dunno. I have been doing the vast majority of my training on a road bike, but am comfy on my B2 Pro when I do ride it.

A friend who had a two level fusion a month before my surgery (hers was in June '08 after a previous discectomy) just did a 4 min PR at the FL 70.3. We were lucky to find a great surgeon and have good results.

I would do it again in a heartbeat!

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

One of the problems with creating an artificial lumbar disc is the large magnitude of loads you are dealing with... it doesn't leave many options on the table, you need to use metals or dense polymers. The cervical spine interests me a little more because the loads are a lot less leaving more options on the table. If the right cervical spine replacement came along I might not object to that procedure.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

You mentioned that you are comfortable on both your road and tri bikes. Have you gone with pretty "normal" sizing for both, meaning appropriate for your height? I am a little over 6 feet tall and am pretty comfortable on my 54 P2C with a 120 stem. However, I had a 56 R3 last year that I could just never get comfortable on.

Being that I am riding a 54cm tri bike and ride mostly on the tip of the saddle, I'd guess my reach is effectively very short for my height. However, being a 54 it has a slightly shorter headtube, and just the headset cap and one small spacer, so a fair amount of drop. So I am wondering if drop is fine for my back, but reach is what bothers me. So possibly when I look for a road bike consider a size smaller than what would be "normal".

Anyone else with low back problems find any correlation between pain and reach vs. stack?

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Portside Athletics Blog

Oh my sympathies.

I have been there and I am here to say that there is much life after spinal fusion. I am another happy Dr. V. patient. I had contacted him on the recommendation of another accomplished triathlete. Dr. V told me that I would need a fusion. I had other doctors tell me that and follow it up with my running career would be finished. V told me just the opposite.

When I finally got up the courage, I called V and we proceeded. it has been less than a year. I had a fusion at L4-5. I walked a lot in the beginning. I followed the advice of Bob Cranny P.T. Soon I was swimming, running and cycling. I just completed Florida 70.3 with a P.R. and (more importantly) with no pain.

It should be noted that I tried everything before. I tried yoga, chiropractic, acupuncture, crystals, rolfing, massage, art, arrosti... the list goes on. Dr. V was the only one to give me hope.

Call him, (http://www.bnasurg.com/villa.html)

Good Luck!

I have degenerative disc disease in 3 lumbar levels as well as 2 bulging discs. I've experienced a lot of stiffness like you are talking about as well is radiating pain in the hips and legs. Not wanting to have any kind of fusion as only a last possible resort I have had significant relief with the following:

1 - Physical Therapy. A good PT can do wonders. I had extreme stiffness in muscles I didn't even know about, like the psoas. Stretching and strengthening these core muscles as well as hands on tissue work really helped a lot.

2 - Epidural injections. When at the most severe this was the only way to get relief. Getting the injections gave me enough relief to go to work and do the exercises I needed for flexibility and strength.

3 - Targeted stretching. This is part of the PT work but you learn the techniques then do them on your own later.

4 - Acupressure. Also learned this from the PT. Using foam rollers and rubber balls to stretch and apply pressure to muscle spasms.

5 - Lose weight/exercise. I know I'm posting on a tri forum but I'm not really in that good of shape especially when I first started training. Like the OP said, being sedentary makes stiffness worse.

6 - Inversion therapy. This is basically gravity boots. I have the inversion table. Start slow, don't fully invert at first and just work up to longer sessions with more incline. Now, I fully invert and do crunches as well.

6 - Lifestyle change. For me this was probably the biggest. When at it's worst I was commuting at least 2hrs/day plus sitting at a desk at least 6hrs/day and building a house on the weekends/evenings. Now, I no longer commute and I work in a more ergonomic sitting position. Also, I just don't over use my back on things like lifting and bending. Bending is huge.

I'm suffering more back pain right now than I was 6 months ago because I've been slacking off on my training and I put back on a few pounds. I'm trying to get back in shape because my back is hurting more. Also, I have not had an epidural injection in 18 months because all of the lifestyle changes and PT had relieved enough pain to where I did not need them.

Good luck!!!

Add me to Team V!
I flew out there from Kansas in May of '07...best decision I ever made. Microdisectomy L4-L5.
My back is all good...I just have to take care of it.

I am definately thankful for Simon and Dr.V!

being from Gibraltar, Europe and 'enjoying' a health service totally different from the American system whatever I do i'll have to do through the health care service paid for by the taxes we pay.....in other words, whatever route you go down through them you have to go with what they have in terms of experts.....you have all obviously gone to this Dr. V privately or through the complex health insurance system ....so out of interest what did your ops cost you guys???

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

I was lucky enough to have married a guy with good health insurance........however, in retrospect, it would have been worth it if I had to pay every penny myself.

Sherpasports, I see you are from Lawrence........I'll be headed up for the 70.3. Shall we get together and compare scars? ;-)

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Simon will be there as well...:) We can have a scar party...

I'll probably be a little busy though...I am the RD.

Hmmm, well maybe you can just flash me (your scars, I mean) as you zoom by on a golf cart or something. ;-)

I actually kinda stalked Simon's wife at the race last year and asked about his surgery as I was just starting to communicate with V at that time. He's not racing this year, is he? I spoke with him at Longhorn.......his retirement race(?).

Looking forward to heading back to KS.......have a few Gorillas racing. :-)

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

On September 24th I had back surgery for a herniated disk at L5/S1. My disk was blown out and pressing on my nerve to the point that the pain prevented me from walking. I was laid up in bed for months before my surgery.

Our situations are different as it seems that you're not having the same kind of pain as I was, but I can give you some input on what to expect if you go the route of surgery.

I had a discotomy (they removed the disk) and fused my spine by packing ground up coral between my vertebrae. It acted like framework for bone to grow though and once it healed I essentially had two vertebrae become one.

Immediately following surgery I had trouble walking due to my weakened core. Before long I was walking. I had to wear a soft back brace for ten weeks as the bone healed/grew together. At that time I was able to move from simply walking to swimming and light biking. From then on I slowly ramped up my training and eventually added in running.

As I said, I had surgery on September 24th and today I finished a 5 hour hard bike ride and plan to run a half marathon tomorrow. I was swimming all week and did yoga three times. All that to say, I'm back to being very active and know that surgery saved me and my lifestyle. In July I'll be doing IM Lake Placid.

I still have a little pain from the nerve damage prior to my surgery. My low back has lost a little flexibility, but nothing that will slow me down. So, if you do opt for surgery I think you can expect to return to training IF you listen to your surgeon and take the recovery steps one at a time.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask or even PM me.

Good luck.

Interesting thread, I just found out I have some disc degeneration issues, so this is good to know about. Thanks.

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__________________________________________________
My $0.02 in a world where pennies are obsolete...

in the meantime...can anyone tell me what to avoid doing and what to do to help myself out?

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

i'm glad i came across this thread, i feel like you sperera, i have such discomfort in my low back it's unbearable. i just want someone to release the pressure. gardening, lifting, picking up my nephews, coughing, sneezing, you name it - it hurts. i have moderate DDD in L4/5 and L5/S1 and a moderate herniation at L5/S1. i've started to waddle when i walk (like my 80-year-old grandmother) and everything i do is a negotiation - how much bending/leaning/lifting is involved?? the slightest pelvic tilt (back extension) and i'm in EXCRUCIATING pain. it's all very localized and on occasion will have radiating nerve pain into my butt, hips and thighs. i'm extremely discouraged because i've been seeing a neurosurgeon (for another issue with my spinal cord) who says that there is nothing they can do for me, he was speaking on behalf of himself, a neurosurgeon, and on behalf of an orthopaedic surgeon. on paper (or should i say in pictures, MRIs), my degeneration seems moderate (not severe enough that it's bone on bone) and perhaps he feels the amount of pain/discomfort i'm experiencing doesn't "match" the pathology. so then i begin to think, am i going crazy? is it in my head??
he said i will never run again or do any weight bearing exercises, can't lift anything over 5kg and definitely not repetitively. when i heard these words it was like getting the wind knocked out of me. further to this, besides all the fun stuff i like doing, when i asked him how in the world i could ever have kids and care for them, he told me that i could hold/carry/lift them when they are infants but after that i'm &#!%'d. my job requires me to be active, i don't sit at a desk. i'm a traveling sales rep constantly lugging my laptop, samples, lunches, in and out of my car, up and down stairs, blah blah.
i feel so deflated right now and this Dr. V. sounds amazing. i'm lacking a good, sports-oriented surgeon who understands how important (and mandatory) an active life is. this can't be the end for me............. anyone in toronto who knows a good spine doc????

It is worth the trouble and $$ to at least get a consult with Dr V. He will give you the straight dope and at least you will know your options. We did a lot of the initial stuff via email and phone. When I finally traveled to Boulder, we had a pretty good game plan.

FWIW, my symptoms did not match up with the pictures, so don't let that discourage you. Be aggressive in getting the information you need from multiple sources and then make an informed decision. Just because Dr So-and-So is well known in your area, don't assume they are the right doctor for you. I went to arguably the "best" sports ortho in my area and he could do nothing for me.

Good luck!

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

i contacted dr. V's office and am in the process of collecting all the necessary paperwork/films/cd's. he said he would do the initial consult over the phone - review my tests and offer his recommendation. if surgery is recommended he mentioned they have a pretty good system to accommodate people traveling in, meeting one day and surgery the next. we'll see what happens. i know that i have degenerative discs and herniations.. the doctor i spoke to here (toronto) made it sound as though my condition isn't "serious" enough for surgery. although, this is the same, 70+ year old man that told me with a straight and serious face, that i would have to think about changing my job, reconsider having children because i should never lift anything over 10lbs, and that life, as i knew it, is over. pretty much. he said i should definitely never run again. there is a difference between being able to function to get through the day and living. i want to live, not just exist. i'm extremely frustrated with our healthcare system - it literally takes MONTHS to get a consult from a surgeon --> 6-8 month waiting list for the surgeon i want to see... and that is just for a consult! can you believe this????

thanks again for the tip on Dr. V. let's hope he can help me...............

one more thing..... i checked feedback for Dr. V. on the RateMD website and he received a 2.6/5. many commented on his bad bedside manner, that he was not attentive, he lost his cool, etc.
can you comment on your experience with him??

Just curious 10 years later how your back is holding up and what you ended up getting done.

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wow!!!! haven't been in here for decade or so! thanks for asking....well....my back is doing great....I took up PILATES and then just stopped doing triathlon etc and just did normal recreational sports and now even some yoga and my back is NOT an issue........and to be fair an ortho surgeon that saw my back some time after predicted this.....that it was all inflammation of surrounding muscles etc etc as opposed to anything wrong with the spine!!!!!!!

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

So a few follow-up questions. So your back pain is completely gone, and what about the hip pain as well? Do you still do any gardening? If so does it cause any issues? I think before I posted I checked your last log-on time and it was recent so you must still check Slowtwitch on occasion? No triathlons in 10 years but you still follow it loosely?

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Hey Thomas very considerate of you to follow up on this.......

I lead a normal life it terms of my back.....I DO have to be careful with gardening in particular as it tends to put my spine/hips in bad angles when extending as you're e.g raking / sweeping / pruning etc etc......I wonder why gardening is so bad for my back hahaha........so perhaps i get a flare up of a day or so but nowhere near what I use to get......

in summary I quit triathlon (also had to decide to spend time with my baby sons or train - Nicholas born in 2001 and Sean in 2004.....and no I wasnt going to get up at 4am to train at 5am so everyone sleeps whilst i come and go).....PLUS sleeping on my side never on my back PLUS getting into Pilates helped PLUS quitting traditional chiropractic treatments were the key issues I found.......I went to McTimoney method initially and THAT really worked well for me - 'A McTimoney Chiropractor gives an ‘toggle recoil’ type adjustment to Thoracic Spine'

Ironically on yesterday I was at the Gibraltar Island Games triathlon as a marshall in the run route so I attended a race for the first time since I raced myself

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

The back sure is a weird thing. You can run a marathon and be fine, but you pull out a weed and your out for days. Regardless, glad to hear about your recovery. Sounds like a true success story without major surgery.

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Hello, nice to have followed the thread. What you mentioned some 10 years ago is happening to me these months. Didn't your docs tell you about the lack of your disc L5/S1 however? It interests me much how you are after these years and what about your disc thinness? In my case (extremely thin disc L5/S1) a well-known experienced doctor counselled operation (vertebrae fusion TLIF) while the other said "when there's almost/no disc, you can do whatever sports you like if it is just osteophytes that rub). And I feel exact same symptoms you described a decade ago. Stiffness doesn't help and you cannot run that swift you did. Do you live without this disc and what sports can you practise now. Which are comfortable? Thanks for any answer. Hope to jog in Gibraltar, which we did 3 years ago. Yes - up there - on the Rock ;-)

I have had an l4-l5 herniation since I was 15 from an accident. Don't give up! I see an amazing chiropractor, get trigger point therapy every other week, do lots of stretching and strengthening....sometimes I have to ease up, but mostly it has been ok! I am a 53 yo age grouper, but have qualified and run Boston 20x, have competed in 16 ims, including Kona....all with the herniation. Be willing to adjust, but please, please don't give up on your athletic career!!! Good luck, and hang in there!!!!