You make a good point. At some point soon you might even hear a pro credit weight training with bringing their performance to a new level. That would be ironic.
FWIW, I've never been swayed in my support of Brick workouts.

i think doing brick work outs depends on how many races you do. less races means a few more bricks.

for many of us, a few brick work outs a season can sub in for that feeling you get after the bike.

but thats all it is though, just a feeling. i cant see how it would make you significantly faster than just training at a higher velocity in both running and cycling.

see that just it. It's BRICKS in addition to higher intensity in both R/B. I don't advocate giving up the later.

By the quote it seems to have worked for her. Weekly (short) BRICKS, as prescibed by my plan (written by a 7 time Kona Qualifier) will continue to be a staple for me.

One often overlooked benefit of bricks, especially multiple bricks such as continous 5*(800m-5k), is the inclusion of two hard workouts in one session which leaves more time for recovery on other days. The quality of the session might be slightly less compared to similar single sport workouts. However, I believe that the benefits outweigh significantly.
(The only exception are OD pro athletes who might have to develop raw "speed" rather than strength endurance.)

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agreed. Similarly, my plan calls for "bike sandwiches" - R/B/R. These are killer workouts but the points in your post are spot on for these too.

Funny just got done with a 35 mile bike and 6.5 mile run. Going to swim and run tommorow then after a 4 hour break, ride to work. Dont think you need more then 2 or 3 bricks a week before it starts to catch up and be negative for your average age grouper. Then again it all depends on the individual and how well their body recoups from the work out. Lets remember also olympic and pro triathletes have massages , ice baths, heat therapy, etc , etc.... all waiting for them after they are done. Its not like they are your average age grouper. I enjoy the brick just for the workout and adrenalin rushes. I am not saying I am fast far far from it.

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Heaven forbid du/triathletes actually do a workout that requires and works transition and bike mount skills!

I have curtailed my Slowtwitch surfing dramatically this year, so let me get this straight -- there is a school of thought that bricks ARE NOT good workouts for the average age grouper? That is truly news to me. I can only speak from my own experience, but I definitely saw significant performance gains when I added a weekly brick to my training schedule. Nothing major -- just a three mile run after either a relatively short (20-25 mile) or longer (50+ mile) bike ride. I found that it just got my legs used to transitioning from biking to running, and thus, in races I no longer felt like I had "dead legs" for the first mile or so (it is also a great way to "kill two birds with one stone" for people with limited training time like myself). Your results may vary, but I am just a bit surprised to hear the effectiveness of doing bricks is being called into question. Just as a point of reference, for sprint/Olympic distance races I usually average 21-22 MPH for the bike and run in the high 6:00/low 7:00 range...

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Well in this case, she speaks specifically about the run after the bike. She didn't mention that the benefit was the brick itself, more the hard run afterwards.

Spiltting hairs, no? Yes she said "running hard off the bike" O.k. so her benefit came from running hard, off the bike. some of the benefit came form it being a brick. shakes head.

Yes and some of it comes from coaches errr, people who charge others for their services.

I think this may be one of those areas where one size does not fit all. I think bricks are beneficial in training both the legs and brain to run after cycling. A lot of the benefit can be achieved by a relatively short, easy run after a ride. A hard run of the bike may better simulate a race but may also have an increased risk of injury and increased recovery time. Most people just need to train more and the risk of injury involved with hard running off the bike may not be worth it

personally, I think the main point is that she was running hard. It just happened to be off the bike.

got it. fair enough.

The exact opposite is true.

No, it's both true and false. It all depends on the whole training context and all other surrounding factors.

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My coach who used to coach Pauli Kiuru among others thinks that bricks are the most important aspect of training, at least ironman distance. And I agree. The best way to train your muscle endurance and metabolism is with doing long bricks where you progressively elevate your speed and finish with a run at good pace. The key is running at good pace, not sloppy jogging. When you focus on the run you keep the bike shorter and the other way around. The same philosophy was also used by 2008 Lanzarote winner Tiina Boman and Tom Söderdahl who finished 8th on Kona in 2006. That doesn´t exclude doing your running with good technique and stride, on the contrary you can work on your technique in conditions that are similar to competition. And of course, in addition to the brick workouts, you do sport specific workouts.
Another philosophy, which I know Mika Luoto, who finished 8th on Kona 2002, and Jonas Colting, adherred to was using short cross over runs to finish off long bike rides. Just like 15-20 minutes to get into the rhytm and teach your body to make the shift. According to that same philosophy, doing long runs on the day after a long bike simulates the effect of having to run on top of cycling, while you still can do the run fresh with energy.
Doing shorter distances, I think brick training is a must. You simply have to teach your body to be able to change swiftly, getting the blood streaming in the right muscles quickly. I know sprint pros who for example do interval sessions with bike+run+bike+run+bike+run, like 10 min bike hard, then 1K hard run, then 10 min hard bike etc. or swim+run+swim+run+swim+run.

i finally transferred to a command where i can cummute on my bike. i typically ride into work 3 days a week, 25 miles one-way and then run as soon as I get in. My race times have decreased quite a bit, I notice I can also get up to speed quicker, ie,,,biking legs go away quickly and I can get into the run stride faster. I will usually run 3-6 miles after the ride into work and depending how I feel, I will try to keep a pace that is not to fast.

Please elaborate.

We used to take our trainers to the track and do bricks like that and loved them.They made race day a lot easier.As they say "you have to train harder than you race".

That being said I do believe that here on ST too much of the advice is given without telling people that everyone is different and not all programs or workouts apply to everyone.There is way too much of a difference in age,talent,experience,health,available training time..etc for all the advice to be applied across the board.

It would take me a couple of months of solid training to be strong enough to recover from intense brick sessions but I know once I was fit ,they would help me a lot with the short races I will be doing later this year.

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It all depends on how you structure the brick workout around your other training as well as on the individual.
Running on pre-tired muscles might increase the danger of injury short-term as well as it might increase injury-resistance long-term.

With training methods I am always cautious to be black or white.

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Assuming you have 10 to 15 years of base, you can graduate to bricks....

Hrm.

Since the COmmuting is a relatively new thing for you, you can't necessarily attribute the race time decrease specifically to the brick, as you appear to have added at least 75 mph per week of biking, which will also help decrease run times and/or the bike time as well.

John

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Actually only added about 50 miles more per week. I just get to do a good portion of my riding to and from work instead of just after work.I can see your point. Also my running is done on hills, instead of the flat coronado strand, that helps too. Besides, I am more consitent with the "brick" because of the commute to work.

Don't try pretending you are that stupid.

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Well then... there is nothing wrong with running on pre-tired muscles, is there?

I live in New Paltz and have had the pleasure of joining Rebbeca and her twin sister Laurel (2008 Elite Rookie of the Year) on some training days. One day in particular we did a 3 hour quality ride with a 45 min transition run @ aprox. 6:45 pace. These two are so humble and down to earth you'd never know they are crazy fast.

Actually, we did a trainer workout a few days before the race and she looked ready to go. Hope she can carry that to Korea.

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This might be sacrilege, but some of the slowtwich intelligencia are occasionally incorrect. There have been multiple threads in this forum about shaping ones training from general base to specificity as you move through the season and toward primary races, hard bricks are logical extension of this concept. For an olympic or iron distance race you are running after multiple hours of hard exercise, that physiology can't be replicated in typical running workouts. Running fast on tired legs is not easy, but it can be trained. I utilize my brick workout as a tempo run and I find it pays high returns.

Not at all...the recent 'worst advice from ST' thread comes to mind...
there IS a lot of BS here, I read for entertainment not to get real advice, though I find it interesting to see what others do and what works for them....but PROS are not the average AGrouper and you can't expect what applies to them applies to everyone else.

They hurt, but I can see improvement:

Sunday: 60min bike/ 60 min run... 3hours later, 20 x 3 min hill repeats, odds were 3 min up on bike, coast; evens, 3 min runs up...jog

Wednesday/Thursday: Wednesday 5:45pm. Bike TT. Thursday, 5am track work. Longer recovery than Sunday, but can feel the improvement. will say... OUCH!

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i dont understand the physiology of training a brick. training faster both on the bike and run while rested has observable benefits.

i guess i dont believe that much in volume either, thats why i have a hard time accepting a brick. i think its all about, how many intense workouts can i fit into a week without getting burned out or injured.

Which is exactly where a brick like 5*(5k-800m) comes into play.

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So, are bricks more "old school"? It appears this lack of acceptance comes primarily from the "new age" generation.

when you put it that way, then its not much of a risk.

This is not about risk-reducing but maximizing training. As said before, this type of bricks allows a hard bike and run in one session which leaves more time for recovery.
Granted, this method trains slightly less top end 'speed' but that is only an issue for OD Pros (we're talking sub 31' 10k level). Also, it is not meant to replace all other intensity, single discipline session.

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dunno about "not beneficial", but if that was where she was weak, then of course it would be of benefit to her..... that's just common sense. Find your weak point, and exploit it in training till it no longer exists ..........

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stillrollin, you misunderstood. Rebeccah used to do her hard runs *on* the bike; now she does them *off* the bike. I'm sure we can all agree that trying to run on the bike, unless you have superb balance, is just asking for trouble.

As Fleck would say, people overcomplicate things.

If you are doing a race involving swim-bike-run, then practice some swim to bike sessions and practice some bike to run sessions. Do some at race intensity, but not for race duration (save it for race day). If you are racing often, you're already practicing bricks frequently.

One can't expect to perform in racing if we don't try doing each element in training...that means swimming hard some days, biking hard some days, running hard some days....doing long stuff in each sport to get ready for race duration and of course, actually practicing the transitions. Put it all together on race day (go long, and hard and do transitions). What is so difficult about this to grasp? Just don't do race duration and intensity efforts daily....only do a subset daily :-)

Dev

Uh, that logic would perhaps also make long runs/long bike rides unnecessary - since you can run faster if you just run for 30 minutes than if you run for 2 hrs?
Today, a splendid session of 3 h bike slightly below aerobic threshold, with the last hour slightly above aerobic threshold. then 1 h run at aerobic threshold. I felt splendid running, it turned out to be a very decent aerobic run. And the bike was great, just when it started getting a little monotonic and sloppy I made a clear rhytm change and increased my speed. This type of workouts have really worked well for me, I feel a lot stronger towards the end of long races/workouts. I can recommend.

Agree. My club arranges a sprint triathlon every tuesday during summer. Sometimes you do it all out with the aim of improving your PB, sometimes you´re just revving up for next weekend´s race, sometimes you just do the swim hard, and sometimes you´re just socializing when you´re recovering from a race. Besides being huge PR for the sport and a window for bringing in new guys, the´re great training and - fun. Besides those, I always do at least a longer brick a week if I´m not racing. And almost always I do at least a short run after a bike workout, if for nothing else then for variaton and stretching my legs. That´s my philosophy. Triathlon is not a decathlon with three disciplines.

I think the key is specificity with anything. When on earth do you not off a bike in a triathlon. I think it is very beneficial to teach your muscles to run fast when they feel the same why they will feel in a race. I think pros can run at closer to open pace off the bike because they do more races than most agers, so they have more practice in race situations. Your stride is very different when running off the bike, so teaching yourself to run fast with that shortened stride due to the tightening up of the legs muscles from the bike becomes very important