Was just about to post about this as well...
Sounds like the battery life of the Apple watch ultra is supposed to be long enough for IM distance.
I guess most will wait to see what DC Rainmaker says.......if his review (I'm just assuming he'll be doing one) is positive I'll be getting one.

I'm in the market for a new watch and the new Garmin 955's lack of cell service makes it a nonstarter. I have an Apple Watch 6 now that I wear for everyday use but it's not a good multisport watch. The new Apple Watch Ultra looks like it checks all the boxes.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I guess my question - and I've been searching google for awhile - is will it support ANT+?

I don't follow this space at all but am always intrigued. What does the Ultra have (other than battery life) to make it a possible suitable replacement to your Garmin?

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I think the UI will be the biggest feature. I am pro Garmin now via a Fenix 6 and content. But in the long run I would be very nervous if I was them. Living in the Apple ecosystem will make it very attractive future purchase for me as Apple continues to add Health analytics that I suspect will far out do Garmin. Then having a phone, SMS to Satellite (I bet is in the watch in the future), all these things will draw people over and I doubt they go back.

Far away the biggest thing holding me back from Apple currently is the battery life of the watch. I wear my watch all the time, everywhere, so having to charge it when I am in a 3rd world country's (which I do often) is a big of an adjustment for me. Spent 3 day's in the high mountains this past Labor day, all my freinds Apple watches were toast when we went trail running, my Fenix 6 was great. So if Apple is getting closer, well you can tell me and I bet a lot of consumers will lean in.

This looks like it is a few generations away from competitive with the Garmin multisport watches. The big action button is an improvement over the base watch and UI, but it does not have any of the ANT+/BLE accessory support we take for granted in true sport devices. And, touch UI has historically been a liability in any sport device (even the current AW implementation).

They say you would need to use Low Power Mode to survive a long triathlon. Which means low resolution GPS, limited display interaction, and probably no accessory connectivity. In other words, nope.

I have had every generation AW except AWS1, and I have already ordered my Series 8 (not the Ultra). The Apple Watch has been my daily wear since introduction, but I have never considered it for training and racing due to its limitations. But, for someone who is just trying a triathlon, it might be great.

The AW's greatest assets as a smart watch (brilliant screen, simple user interface) are its greatest liabilities as a sport watch (massive battery drain & limited user interaction). My gut is that the AW cannot do both with excellence.

+1 to everything Zippy said.
Our family are big users of the apple products. 3 macbooks, apple tv, 4 iphones, 2 apple watches......I've wanted one but was holding off hoping they'd release one capable of triathlon...

I would bet on a firm no.....they won't want to pay anyone else for the use of ANT+.

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

Where did it say that? From the apple website:

Apple Watch Ultra has the best battery life of any Apple Watch, reaching up to 36 hours during normal use.1 Additionally, a new low-power setting, ideal for multi-day experiences, can extend battery life to reach up to 60 hours.2


and


Apple Watch Ultra has enough battery life for most users to complete a long-course triathlon, consisting of a 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike ride, and full marathon at 26.2 miles.

SBRcanuck wrote:

Where did it say that?

In their video event, around 30 minutes in. The narrator specifically says that a "long distance triathlon" (140.6 in their example) would need the low power workout setting.

https://www.apple.com/apple-events/event-stream/

The AW already has to dumb down GPS sampling and accuracy just to survive with the current models. So I cannot imagine what low power would do to GPS accuracy.

The Ultra is "capable of triathlon." But if you are accustomed to a true multisport device, then the AW Ultra might not live up to expectations.

My Caveat: I am a long time AW user and have given it a try in running, cycling, and swimming (but not a triathlon). It is fun, and good if I left my real sport watch behind. But it is a huge gap from a Garmin, Suunto, or Wahoo watch. And nothing in the release video looks like they made much real progress filling the gaps (other than adding true multisport and enough battery to make a 70.3).

Ahh..OK, thanks.

Well, I guess I'll see what DC says...

The other consideration about the AW as a sport platform is access and analysis of your workout data. If you have ever tried to get workout data out of an Apple Watch, it royally sucks. On one end of the spectrum, you have Garmin, which has a fully mature interface on the watch, mobile app, and web app for reviewing, analyzing, and sharing data. In the middle, you have Suunto and Wahoo which have good mobile apps (middle tier) but varying limits on the web tier.

Then you have Apple, which has a bad mobile tier and no web tier. And extracting a workout takes a willing app on the phone to do the work. It works, but it is clumsy at best. And you have to use something like Strava or TrainingPeaks for analysis - there is no Apple solution.

I have a lot of Apple products, and I upgrade every year. But I am also a deep cynic. To me, they are also the opposite of innovative in so many ways. It is like they design certain things without ever talking to experts who would use those things. For example, you see them often in the medical field, but a nurse cannot use the watch effectively to take someone's pulse, because the screen with a second hand disappears. Apple has known about this design limitation since 2015, but they implemented a half-assed non-fix. (Probably never actually talked to a nurse.)

I think the other 2 big pros of Apple is the social interactions with their ring competitions and health features.

Yup, I've got a Garmin and my partner has a AW and she refuses to go to bed if she hasn't closed her activity ring for the day

I think the one big con of Apple is that it's...Apple

Sorry :)

Garmin is, at least, 5 years ahead of Apple in multi-sport watches. That plus it is too small a market for Apple to focus on it.

I wonder if Apple will ever provide the option for health and recovery analytics similar to Whoop?? I haven't really looked closely at the new watch, but hopefully that will be a future option besides just basic data. I currently sleep with mine on to record a true resting HR as well as looking at HRV which doesn't correlate much for me unless something is seriously off. Maybe the watch isn't quite sensitive enough, but one would think their data pool would be enough to pull it off.

Hi Ecce, I would agree but is the dive market that big that they did a whole call out on their new product launch to go after Scuba divers?

I have always thought the one big challenge we all have is who holds our data in the end. I switched years ago from Suunto over to Garmin and lost all that history was it not for Strava. Now if I switch to Apple, again Strava holds my data but what happens when a new Strava comes along? I have always wished for a depository of data that is easy. Sure I could download a thousand GPX files, but just like I back of my HD to the cloud or something, you would think a brand agnostic back of service for us work out weenies would be interesting.

I'm one of those people that does my workout and that's the end of it. I don't analyze workouts because its past history and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. I know if my workout went well or not and whether I hit my paces/metrics or not. My watch or bike computer gave me real time feedback.

I get that other people do review and analyze their workouts so I get Apple's shortcomings in comparison to Garmin in that respect. For me it's not an issue.

I want a watch that can tell me how far, fast, and hard I'm going. I want a watch that has the ability to track me in real time in a race or training without a bunch of hoops to jump through. My wife can literally just grab her iPhone and see where I am at any given moment. Garmin requires a different ecosystem she just isn't going to use. I want a watch that has the ability to make phone calls if I'm injured and laying in a ditch on the side of the road. Bonus that I can buy shit with it (Apple Pay) and listen to music (iTunes).

Battery life for more than a 70.3 is a concern so I'm looking forward to reviews regarding that aspect of the watch.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

https://tapiriik.com/ is what you want - can dump FIT files to Dropbox for easy downloading/platform agnostic storage

Thank you, that is exactly what I used when I switched over. It was "ok" some 5-6 years ago so maybe better now, but yes an expansion to that would be great. Note no Apple on there either, so suspect you have to get it to Strava to pull it down somewhere as some others have said. Anyway maybe just me whinging.

Last I checked (which was a while back) Apple Health data could only be accessed directly on an iOS device (no web based APIs) so they'd need to build an app to pull it from there. Dumping to Strava does seem to be the best lowest common denominator option still.

My Dad ordered the Ultra, so I can give you second-hand-ish ask-me-anything triathlete view in a couple months.

It still looks like something a 12 year old girl would wear...

I’ll look forward to some sort of report. I’m neck deep in the Apple ecosystem with macbook, iMac, iPhone, and iPad but I just don’t see myself leaving polar for Apple in regards to a multi-sport watch…especially at that price point.

Are Cellular enabled watches allowed in races? I see no cell phones so just asking

Many ppl including me aren't into apple's other products, so unlikely I would ever want their watch either. Not a huge garmin fan boy just think the apple looks and functions worse currently and I dotn need the watch to do anything other than sport data, I have time pieces for time and phone or computer for the rest. Guessing I can't be alone but I'm old so who knows.

I would really love for this to be a viable option and not have to switch between my Apple Watch and Garmin throughout the day, but the dealbreaker for me is TP support. I love that my workouts are synced automatically from TP onto my Garmin and ready to go when I start a workout. I don’t want to be using third party apps and having to build the workouts again on the watch.

Yes, I agree.

Ex. My Wahoo Rival does it automatically.

Is there currently no way to auto web sync TrainingPeaks run workouts to Apple Watch?

I use my Apple Watch for open water swims because I want to have a phone without having a phone. Trying to get the thing to stop the workout with a wet screen and wet fingers and needing to release the water (or whatever turning the bezel does) to unfreeze the watch is a massive undertaking that I would not want to get involved in during a race. That new button would have to be close to magic for me to want to race with an Apple Watch over my Garmin.

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Move on. Keep training. Be an adult.

The reason Garmin is #1 is because they've been building GPS electronics since the mid 1980's when GPS was first available to the US public. I think Apple still has a learning curve they haven't matured past; especially with tracking OPWS. I tried the original and second generation Apple Watch just for running, and it was often off by a minute by mile or more, especially when I ran off-road or in areas with heavy tree cover. Garmin has pretty well figured out many of the finer nuances of GPS tracking for SBR. I'd be shocked if the Apple Watch was on par with the same accuracy as Garmin, especially with OPWS.

The Apple Watch does an amazingly good job with open water swim, ironically, because of its limitations. The AW only samples GPS occasionally to conserve battery, so it uses its accelerometers to guess where you have been between GPS points. This works great in the water. But, it is why AW GPS tracking is pretty sketchy on the bike and run.
This is truly the essence of the difference between the Apple Watch and a purpose-built sport watch. The AW is essentially a computer that can do anything, and all of its functions are just apps. Apple's Workout App is limited and the 3rd-party alternatives have their own function and stability issues. A Garmin/Wahoo/Suunto/Polar/Coros/etc. is a dedicated activity timing device first that produces a standard file format as its output. All of its timing functions are its primary purpose, and the smart watch features are the plug-in apps.

An Apple Watch is a jack of all trades but master of none. A triathlon watch is a master at timing and sharing activity data and mediocre at extra smart watch stuff. An Apple Watch is fine for someone content with "good enough," but someone who wants excellence would lean toward a true triathlon watch.

The Training Peaks app can automatically sync Apple Health workouts now. I don’t recall exactly when this was added but I think it was about 12 months ago.

I personally think that the Apple Watch will be a bit of a niche player for a while longer but it is currently improving quite rapidly. I suspect that their initial success will be with people who were unlikely to buy a separate training Watch as well as a few people who might have bought one but buy a higher level Apple Watch instead of having two devices. I certainly expect that there will be plenty of market for the existing players for quite a while.

Having said that, if I was an existing vendor I would see this as something that will make growth more difficult over the coming years and could be a direct competitor IF Apple continue to improve their offering at the same pace they have recently.

The best news for competitors, in my opinion, is that I don’t think Apple specifically cares about the current Training Watch market and is instead aiming at a different audience and so it only becomes a big issue if that audience ends up expanding to totally overlap the current Garmin, Polar, Wahoo, etc buyers.

As ever, we’ll have to wait and see but I am happy that Apple is adding options.

Oh cool! Is this synced to the native workout app in Apple Watch? Or a third party app?

It is done with the Training Peaks app now. You give TP access through Settings/Privacy/Health/Training Peaks and make sure Workouts is turned on.

Previously HealthFit was the popular choice but it is no longer necessary. It is only a couple of bucks though and lots of people still use it (and it can sync lots of other apps too).

I believe this is only for the uploading of completed workouts to TP, not the downloading of structured workouts to the watch, which is key for a lot of athletes.

Happy to be corrected though!

DC posted a video about this earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8w8vnXY_wQ

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Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/

The 945LTE is basically a 955 with LTE... meaning, the 945LTE is closer to a 955 than it is a 955, and the 945LTE received the software update for the 955. Garmin sort of confused things when they didn't change the 945LTE to a different number.

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Team Zoot

Yes... for people to track you. you can not use them to communicate. I wear a 945LTE so that my wife can keep an eye on me during races (this was a requirement from my wife in order to return to racing after having an MI/Cardiac arrest.

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Team Zoot

I place an order for the Ultra this morning and will be selling my Fenix 6x Sapphire (if anyone is interested - I'll list it in classifieds). Mainly for me I like the look of the larger watch, and have gotten to where I wear an Apple Watch the majority of the time during the day. As much as I tried to make the Fenix work as an everyday watch, while at work the way I interact with notifications is a lot more useful to me on the Apple. So I was just using the Fenix for running, which seemed like a waste of a nice watch.

Very good point. I have only recently started using tech to guide me through structured workouts and I love it.

I do use Apple Watch for structured running workouts but generally use the Stryd app for that but you are right that it is a big gap in the Apple Watch direct capabilities. I also use a Wahoo Rival for structured runs at other times.

Since I use a bike head unit for structured bike workouts, I don’t see that as big an issue but I expect that they would need a solution for structured workouts before many would see it as a serious alternative.

Where's the 'like' button when it's needed ?

If it's Apple, it's just a big fat juicey NO in this household.

Totally agree. I'm sure they will get there.

I'm a fenix person too. But the watch as a phone is a plus for me when Im out running. And my wife tracking me is a plus.

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.

It’s 800$.

No thx.

While the watch might have sufficient battery life in low power mode to last an Ironman, what use will it be? You won't be able to do much other than look at the the time. Using the watch with GPS will not give you enough time do anything much, maybe the swim and some of the bike before it goes flat.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

We'll have to wait and see as more details are released and the watch becomes available. Low Power Mode still allows GPS and Workout tracking so it will all boil down to how closely it matches the claims in practice.

IF we can get workouts from TrainingPeaks directly to the native workout app - I'm interested.

I've had too many issues in the past with using 3rd party apps, crashing etc which is why I moved to Garmin - and 3 watches in (935,945 and now the 955) I love the whole TP integration and can't see me going back, so if thats working with the new WatchOS I would swap back.

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Regards, Richard
3D Bits and Pieces - https://www.printables.com/@thetrickster_793480

I find it kind of hard to believe that they would say it can be used for an Ironman event, and then have no GPS tracking, that makes zero sense. But I guess we'll see when DC does his review.

I will say, seeing the pictures of the watch with the different straps on his wrist, the straps look pretty darn ugly/cheap for a 1k (Cad) watch....

Yeah, they say in their video it has GPS tracking in low power workout mode. The question is how far back do they dial the GPS sampling rate (and rely on accelerometers for tracking) to preserve battery. It is already a long gap in the standard watch, so I wonder if they push it to something like every 20 seconds? For sure they turn off the screen, because that is one of the biggest battery drains next to GPS tracking.

I personally have no interest in the Apple watch, mainly because I don't want to be in the Apple ecosystem, and I already like my 945. I'm excited by the idea of competition though, and that hopefully Garmin will up their game to keep up

You may already be aware of this, but the AW Ultra Workout Low Power Mode does not reduce HR and GPS resolution (it stays at 1 second). This is the mode that they state can do an IM. (See DCRainmaker review for details)

The UPCOMING not released version of a lower power mode will reduce the GPS and HR resolution to 2 seconds.

Yes, I saw that in Apple’s updated marketing materials. And I have been testing their GPS accuracy, and it seems to be markedly improved. It does seem to have it’s occasional glitches, but when it does not glitch, it will be within 0.01 miles of a mainstream multisport watch.

I am seeing similar good accuracy compared to my Fenix 7S, but I am not seeing battery life drain consistent with expectations (yet).

Did my first tri with the Ultra at the Santa Cruz Triathlon this past weekend. Multi sport mode has a long way to go.
Somehow the watched pushed 3/4 of the way through the swim. I didn’t even realize you could pause it while it was locked for swimming. The auto transition didn’t work coming into T1 because of the previously mentioned pause.
The bike leg worked fine but immediately went into the running leg when I dismounted. Added like 2 minutes to my run time and messed up my splits.
Still better than switching watches for a race but my next race I’ll just do all three individually and ignore transitions.

I wonder if the orange button is too sensitive? I have seen a couple other similar comments.

I general, I think that Apple will need an option to disable the touchscreen during activities to get there. It is way to easy to accidentally trigger a touch action on any touch screen watch, and the Apple Watch is particularly sensitive. I have had a number of false touch actions with my Apple Watches during bikes and runs that I would not use it for an event I care about. (As much as I love what the touch screen can do on the new Garmin watches, I keep it off during activities.)

Until Apple can figure out how to make their watches last 1-2 weeks on a charge, I'll keep using Garmin. I was a long time apple watch user, but once I tried a Garmin it's hard to go back. My wife is the opposite though, and will likely end up going to the Ultra.

Coros has really pushed hard into the market as well with their Pace 2 model coming in at $200. Feature rich, lightweight, and super affordable. I’m
currently using a Polar Vantage M but am keen to try out the Coros as well. As long as there are watches like the Pace 2 out there, I won’t give an Apple Watch a second thought.

Slowtwitch is the land of early adopters. I was using stuff long before mainstream users did. Other stuff I waited until others Beta tested it and then I joined (still usually being an early adopter). Dan was an innovator and most of us follow that thread. I think the Apple watch advances have finally made the question "should I switch from Garmin?" a legit question. I'm a Garmin devotee and an Apple (non-watch) devotee so I'm curious as to whether the advances will make me switch. When I get a unit, I'll figure that out. But at the least, it a legit question as to which platform people will pick.

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"it's also a personal choice to remain ignorant" - Slowman

I prefer to use the best tool for the job. That still ain't Apple

Have you seen the Wahoo watch? That one also looks like a good value. About $100 less than the FR955 (I'm currently using one), and seems to have very similar features and battery life.

I have the Wahoo Rival and really like it. As you mention, the price is pretty reasonable.

My favorite features are the (editable) touch less transitions, hand-over to the Wahoo Bolt automatically and swim workout display fields like last interval time and interval rest time.

I also train with Apple Watch (now Ultra) and like the direction it is heading. Having said that, I think it is missing a few features before becoming a full-on competitor for Garmin, Wahoo and others. In my opinion the big missing features are:

• Importing structured workouts from TP and similar sources. I actually use Stryd for this which works out pretty well for those in the Stryd camp.
• Swim interval fields for workout and I still haven’t found a third party app to do this properly.
• Ability to adjust transition after a race (although I haven’t actually tried the multisport options yet so maybe this is better than I am expecting).

I think that with those features it would likely have an impact on sales for specialist sports watches (although I am not expecting AW to destroy the market for alternatives any time soon).

I scoped one out at the Augusta 70.3 race expo. They were 20% off if you purchased one at the expo. It definitely looked like a great watch and for $265 would certainly be a great value. My cheapo brain keeps reminding me that we are very close to Black Friday sales, so I am trying to hold off on any triathlon tech purchases until the bigger sales start.

I got the Ultra. I returned it the next day. It's pretty heavy and thick. I think they need to strip out all of the diving capabilities and offer that in a separate dive capable watch. The 49mm screen is a great direction to go in, but the edges of the Ultra watch face don't have that smoothness. The Ultra is just overbuilt in my opinion from a hardware perspective.

I got the 8 instead and its great (previously had the 5). Screen view is bigger than the prior versions. I got the cheapest model so it was $399. Battery life is still a challenge so that is the negative. Lot's of internet hype on the Ultra watch but I didn't see any negative reviews.

I was interested in Wahoo, but was turned off by the plastic buttons. I have a Coros, but the tech on it feels third world. It is light, cheap and has good GPS. I travel with it often because the battery last 2 weeks.

Which watch do you use for racing and training? I was seriously considering an Ultra to replace my Series 7 and 955 (I hate wearing two watches while training/racing, but here we are), but can't get over some of the features that I take for granted on a Garmin device (like, I don't know, buttons). I might stick with my hybrid approach...works for my wife, and she doesn't agonize over these things like I do. :D

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

I own and wear lots of crap, because I like data. I have had almost every AW series and currently have the AWS8.

The Apple Watch is my daily wear. I take it off for any kind of exercise (workout, race, etc.). I wear a Fitbit 24/7 on my other wrist for routine activity tracking. This is my best of breed approach. The Apple Watch is still a distant last for fitness and activity tracking compared to about any other dedicated device. The Apple Watch is by far the best daily wear business companion device. Though the Garmin is closing that gap.

ANT+ won’t ever be on Apple Watch, but you can use any BTLE sensor right now with Workoutdoors and a few other apps. Mapping too. All of it will native by generation 3 of the Ultra, if it even takes that long.

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The list of cadence sensors, power meters, speed sensors, running power sensors, running dynamics sensors, body temperature sensors, etc. that work together in a single app is the worlds shortest list. Each that is supported, and it is only some of them, requires its own app today. No sensors except HRM work with workout today. Seems like apple would add cycling power soon, but I’m surprised it has been this long. Cadence on the bike is a huge gap. Stryd is cool, but that requires its own app and is incompatible with multisport. In summary, none for a triathlon.

http://www.workoutdoors.net/Sensors.html

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That app looks promising. Have you used it? Is it stable? It does not look like it does Triathlon yet, but people have been asking for the feature.

My comments above were mostly oriented toward Apple's Workout app. I have had poor personal experiences with 3rd party fitness apps on the Apple Watch, so I would not recommend any that I have used. (A Wahoo, Suunto, Garmin, etc. glitches or crashes during an activity extremely infrequently. Apple Watch 3rd party workout apps, by contrast, seem to crash far more often.)

Sure, I guess. Garmin is the standard of multi-sport GPS and you have wacky fans of every different challenger that create threads of OMG the Garmin Killer is coming.

When it never comes. It's probably good because it keeps Garmin forward thinking and having to be competitive.

I think the biggest thing that Garmin needs to assess is all the things Whoop says they do, Whoop has spent a lot of money in the marketing space with MLB and PGA. But I'm not sure that has actually helped their bottom line...but I've started seeing more people wearing them. But you hit Garmin pricing inside a year and a half and get no watch functionality.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

As unluck would have it I dropped my Apple Watch 6 on a tile floor and cracked the screen. Might as well get the Ultra. Got it earlier this week.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

You clearly want a phone and not a multi-sport watch on your wrist. Great thing about a Garmin is you won't crack the screen from a random drop on the floor. So do you want a multi-sport rugged watch or a phone that is fragile?

Most people already run with their phones.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I have the Apple Watch 6 and updated to watchOS 9. I’m planning on getting the Ultra. The new WatchOS update does almost all of what Garmin does except for cycling power. I can even see running power.

The Ultra will steal Garmin market share and will rapidly close any gaps. It’s very convenient to be able to use a voice assistant and respond to texts while running or take a call if you have to.

Garmin has the advantage on battery life. The Epix should be compared to the Ultra instead of a Forerunner or Fenix because of the Epix screen.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I do have it - yeah, it’s very stable. Athlytics also provides all the recovery metrics you’d ever need. I hear you on the Garmin challengers, but this is a little bit different. When Apple comes into your space, you’re going to have to either dramatically up your game in terms of reliability, quality of user experience and presentation and everything else, or you’re going to get steamrolled year by year. The Ultra as it stands right now is v1. By v3 I’m willing to bet this market is going to look very, very different.

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Apple are a joke, like with everything they do they treat their customers like chumps. How many years has it taken them to bring out a watch that can last more than a day.. And people act like it's some amazing breakthrough.

Garmin is perfect, battery lasts forever, bomb proof, all the metrics you could hope for. The only thing they need to do is add the ability to make/receive calls and then it's job done.

What do I know but DC rainmaker is calling it too on his initial AW review so I will default to him. He says Apple is for sure coming for a good chunk of Garmin users.

Yeah. Apple, the most successful company on Earth, is a joke.

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It's taken Apple 8+ years to get to this point...except every year of the apple watch I suspect the apple eaters were all over that and have been signaling Garmin downfall. Call me when Apple builds an avionics suite!

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

If Apple builds an Avionics Suite it will only work in 30% of the planes.

The way they treat their sheep, ah I mean customers is a joke. They would have had the ability for a longer battery life years ago, but why release it when they know the fan boy chumps will buy a new watch every year with a tiny improvement in battery life..

I agree that it will take several versions before the Ultra is a threat. But I think it is only a threat to fringe sport watch users. The AW will probably be a good choice for people who can only afford one device and are not committed to the sport. People who are committed to the sport or can afford both will likely continue to have a true multisport watch.

Apple’s biggest liability in this space is the touch screen. My little vignette… I went on a run today with multiple devices to compare running power. One was my AWS8. I planned a route up and down a very steep hill to see how the three running PMs handle elevation compared to one another. I tried to capture a split at the top of the hill, but somehow the AW ended the whole workout. So, I lost my critical Apple power data. I have no idea how I did that except touchscreen foibles. I maybe make one or two similar user errors in a dedicated multisport watch per year - max.

I think the only way they make a serious play in the Coros/Suunto/Wahoo/Garmin/Polar market is if they can fully disable the touchscreen during activities. And, they need to add full sensor support to the native workout app. And they need to make the end-to-end data experience easier; right now, getting workout data into Training Peaks or Strava is clumsy. And they will need to get the device lighter; it is about 50% heavier than most multisport watches.

I think the Apple Watch to Garmin will be like Mac to PC. It will have a small but loyal market share in that space, but not a major position holder.

As someone noted, the AW Ultra probably should be compared to the Garmin epix. That one probably is a true competitive threat, because the epix is probably bought by people where multisport is secondary.

yes, and in my experience reliabilty and quality of user experience are where garmin fall short. i'm on my second 955 now, after the first was replaced due to multiple issues which seem to be well known in the community but garmin support were seemingly unaware of, let alone able to help with other than the eventual "oh well, lets just try replacing it" approach. so after a month of them doing nothing, i then had to pay to ship it back to them and wait 12 days to get a replacement, which was then starting from scratch, reconfiguring everything and now waiting 3 weeks for it to learn my physiological metrics, all of which it should have picked up from the previous one. and guess what, i immediately found that at least one of the significant bugs is present in the new watch too.

i'm not an apple fan at all but i can't imagine they would accept that this sort of experience is typical with garmin devices. i have had a lot of garmin devices and every one of them has had issues that garmin have ben unable to resolve, except sometimes they are willing to replace which sometimes solves the issue

i have to say, the feature set of the 955 is top notch and i don't think anyone else is close, yet. just as usual garmin's lack of reliabilty lets them down which leaves them in danger as and when someone else gets anywhere close on features.

The Ultra doesn’t rely on the touchscreen as much due to the action button or whatever they’re calling it.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Agree. But they need to have an option to fully turn touchscreen off. The Garmin 955 touchscreen is awesome, and I love what it could do during an activity. But there is no universe where I would enable it.

And you'd have to build seperate special airports for them to be able to land and take off at.

You do realize that product designs change over time?

Apples product engineers and marketing team probably didn’t envision building a Garmin competitor at the the time the Apple Watch was first created.

Focus groups, listening to your customers, and creating a future forward looking vision is how the Ultra came to be.

Making fun of them for taking 8 years to release a Garmin competitor is ridiculous. The designs for the Ultra probably started maybe 2 years ago?

Apple doesn’t have to design avionics to beat Garmin in a single product category. Garmin should be worried about losing market share.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I actually used the touchscreen for mapping on my Fenix 7X this morning. Super handy.

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It is sweet. I also like that it makes it easy to switch screens. If only it couldn’t also incidentally screw up an activity too. I wish Garmin only limited it to navigation and left off the destructive stuff.

One of the main reasons I’m so stoked that my Ultra will arrive tomorrow or Tuesday is that until the 9.63 firmware update appeared for my Fenix 7X Sapphire Solar, until recently the top of the line Garmin watch, it was losing 50% of the battery on a short trail run. This stuff *does not happen* with Apple kit.

If Garmin wants to retain the sports watch high ground, they’ve got a veritable mountain of QC issues to sort out, as well as simple stuff like making more comfortable straps available quickly at launch, and hugely slimming down their confusing product lineup. Apple’s success now is partly down to Jobs savagely cutting projects and the product portfolio when he returned from NeXT to focus on quality in a few segments. Garmin need to do the same, IMO, and lose the “ACME” mindset.

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Agreed. Garmin’s product line for watches is enormous. All of their watches have 90% of the same features with each watch having something special for a specific sport.

It’s too much. Wahoo and Apple are doing it right.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

You must be new to Apple. Antenna failures, bulging batteries, rough approximation of a Bluetooth standard, rapid battery discharge (happening now, FYI), ask a field nurse about taking HR with an AW, Final Cut debacle, etc. Apple is not magic.

I have a crapton of Apple in my household. I love them for what they are. But they have a lane where they’re good, and lots of space where they’re not.

I’ve used Macs since 1985 and am a former Apple employee (2007-10). I’m a professional print designer and use Apple gear all day long, every day.

Your point on a field nurse - Apple Watch is not, and has never been intended as, a medical device - never mind a diagnostic tool for use on someone other than the user. That’s just a meaningless complaint.

As for the other points you mention, I haven’t personally ever had a swollen battery although the iPhone 4 antenna placement issue was an annoying one. None of the things you mention have anything to do with my comments about some of the issues I’ve faced with Garmin.

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You kinda moved the goalposts a bit by pivoting from feature comparisons to QC complaints. The AW and iPhone products have had many hardware and major software issues. They are not special. Apple’s Bluetooth history with their BMW partner is comical.

I mentioned the nurse thing because it illustrates Apple’s challenge to truly understand an issue. Nurses need a watch that will show seconds long enough to get a patients pulse. Nurses complained on Apple forums and to apple back in like 2015. Apple added the setting to keep the screen on for 75 seconds on double-tap. Problem is, the screen will shut off if you roll your wrist. So close, but a miss. The most popular nurse’s watch is a Spigen - not a medical device; just a watch.

This is a lot of complaining about stuff that has no bearing toward tracking a run.

Garmin is not special.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I didn’t put up any “goalposts” to move - but as always whenever Apple does something new, the conversation devolves into tribalism very quickly. Again, I really don’t understand why you’re even bringing up medical nursing care…it’s not relevant to the product.

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It’s because they know their Garmins are not so special now. Their arguments mirror political rants.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Funny how you brings up tribalism. Apple Post Jobs is very lack lustre-that notch is laughable! Samsung has been able to get away with a full edge to edge screen with a tiny dot for a camera for years, apple on the other still have a crazy big ugly black hole, oh but let's give it a fancy sounding name like 'dynamic island' and watch the chumps lap it up lol

Apple used to be cutting edge, that time has long passed...

What is 'new' about a watch that still only lasts between 18-36 hours... Lol yeah groundbreaking..

Looks like you just proved my point quite nicely. I’ve had some really nice Samsung stuff. Shame about that Note 7…

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Yup. It’s weak.

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As is your last two comments when you know I'm right. Why and how people become loyal fanboys of commercial companies is beyond me. I had plenty of Apple stuff in the past, phones, computers, tablets and watches. But when they fell behind why on earth would you not move to a superior product? They aren't a sports team...

Why would I even consider a Ultra, I can get 2 weeks battery life out of my Garmin, no accidental screen activations, does everything perfectly I need it to for a multi sport watch. The only thing it doesn't do that I'd like is make and receive calls. If and when Apple make a watch that has comparable battery life then we can talk. Even Samsung Galaxy 5 watch can get up to 80 hours. Like I was saying Apple have been left behind.

At the moment what do they have, up to 18 hour battery on LTE, and after years of accidental screen activations they now have a 'action button' lol don't you love how they spin drip feeding corrections to their oversights as new features....yeah truely groundbreaking innovation..

That big black 'dynamic island', you just know there is no way on earth Jobs would have let that go to market...

You’re right - anyone slavishly loyal to any corporation is a clown. I’ve had Garmin since the 305. I’ve also raced with Polar and Suunto. At NO POINT have I stated that one brand was any better than another. I consider myself fortunate that I am in a position to buy any and all of the options that interest me, and get rid of the ones that no longer meet my needs when the time comes.

What’s actually sad is that commenting on a damn watch generates echoes of the Trumpian division that the US and other places are now so damaged by. I couldn’t care less what you or anyone else chooses to buy or use, but I absolutely guarantee you that Apple taking an interest in the endurance sports market is a move that should make every other actor in the space very nervous. To deny that is nonsensical. Have a nice day.

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As an ex Apple employee I'd have hoped you could have discussed the issues. Surely you would have to recognise they are nothing like the company they once were. But instead you deflect with irrelevant nonsense about Trump...?

And back to my original comment that drew your ire-yes Apple are a joke and treat their customers like chumps. Or do you really think the limit of their technological ability is a 18 hour battery?? No of course not, especially when there are so many companies already far in excess of this. But next year they can drip feed a slightly longer battery life knowing their loyal base will lap it up..

You're right. We don't need either device. Or even a digital watch. You can map your run out on mapmyrun or even Google maps and use a dive watch to keep track of time. So why are we talking about Apple.

The point is Apple isn't going to create a good multi-sport watch, likely ever. The way people use that watch primarily does not lend to week-long battery life.

I'm probably different than most, but as I saw the battery drain from messaging on my Fenix 5x I turned that function off. Not a fan and I have thing called a phone.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I’ve found that when people start arguing about specs on electronics for things they will never use, the argument is over. It’s not worth engaging. Does anyone on here even use a 7 day battery life? Let’s be realistic. Most of the people here go do their run, bike, or swim and then charge their watch at night. Or, they switch to a Samsung or Apple Watch.

People who argue whose specs are better miss the entire point of Apple and fail to understand why Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world.

Before anyone yells at me, I was a Garmin user.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I totally agree.

Being Slowtwitch (which I love) this thread was always going to jump the shark but I have to admit that it happened more quickly and more emphatically than I expected :).

You moved the goalposts when you moved away from feature and performance to your personal device failure and said that does not happen with Apple. It is patently false. Apple is not special when it comes to product defects and quality. And they are especially not special when it comes to optimizing a product to a specific purpose.

The nurse application is there because it illustrates a general problem Apple has truly refining a product to excellence.

Garmin/Suunto/Polar/Wahoo/Coros are special. They are special in that they have specialized their products to a specific purpose. They make timing devices first and then smart watch capabilities are secondary. Apple is not special in that the Apple Watch is a generalist prioritize being a smart watch computer first and a timing device is secondary. Those differences massively impact user experience and ability to achieve excellence for the purpose.

Apple should partner with a company that knows running and multipsort to build their timing app. That is what they are doing with diving. And it is de facto what has happened with surfing. As long as the watch is hamstrung with the current incantation of its workout app, it will struggle to compete alongside true multisport watches.

I think that you are the one who has gone tribal by not recognizing the challenges the product faces in its category and being completely ignorant of its quality and performance issues.

Apple watch users definitely don't use the watch to get max battery life. Garmin users? Varies. But for now I wear it every day and got rid of everything like text messaging and alerts that drained the battery.

Apple stopped attempting to compete in the computer space against PCs. It kept their premium price point and pivoted to mp3 players. Now Apple didn't get all the market share with the iPod. But it got the dominant one or at least the socially dominant one. But it used that process to get into Smart Phones and now has a key part of the market but isn't really the dominant phone in the market. Just socially dominant. Which is again what they've done with the Apple watch.

I have an MacBook. But you'll never find me with a iPhone or an Apple Watch.


Is he? Watched the review. The only sensor this watch can pair to is a blue tooth HR sensor...why would you even do that when have the wrist based HRM, other than if you were swimming. And the fish tell me they don't even swim with watches, so why would they use an HRM?

Also, can't load courses onto your watch either like you can with Garmin. Either load a non-native app or just have a Garmin.

In the video, he clearly states that this is a multi-sport deficient watch. Can apple hire engineers to fix their deficiencies? Certainly they can, but should they?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I wear my Coros Pace watch all the time. I have to charge it about every other week. I also record all my runs on it. Everyone I know who has a Garmin Fenix or 955 also wears theirs all the time. They definitely wear it overnight, as they want to capture the sleep metrics (and now HRV metrics). Almost no one I know takes their’s off after a workout, or charges it overnight.

You don't want people discussing specs because it shows that the Apple devices are clearly inferior. What else is there to discuss when comparing devices...? Looks perhaps, but very subjective and individual.

As for taking your watch off every night to charge what a pain in the a.., plus more importantly 'most' people leave their watches on especially now that Garmin has HRV tracking. The only bad thing about having a long battery life is you forget that you actually have to charge it occasionally.

As for why Apple are one of the most successful companies, well as I said they used to be cutting edge but that time has long passed. They are just fortunate they still have a base of loyal fans who will lap up what ever spin they dish out... As this thread has shown.

Battery life on a multi-sport watch is pretty important to me. Maybe I put too much emphasis on it, but I like the fact that I don't have to charge my Polar Vantage M more than once every 7-10 days.

I think I fit squarely in the Apple Ultra target demographic:
1. Apple user: iMac, MacBook, iPad, iPhone
2. Endurance athlete
3. 30-40 year old demographic
4. Enough disposable income to afford it

Yet this watch doesn't even register on my radar as something I am the least bit interested in. I want a watch from a company that specializes in multi-sport. As much of a powerhouse as apple is, this just seems outside of their wheelhouse. Maybe they convince me otherwise in a few years, but the price point needs to drop quite a bit, battery life needs to beef up, and features need to step-up.

As I said earlier in the thread, I can go out today and get a Coros Pace 2 for $200 that is going to serve my needs just fine. Apple has a lot of work to convince me that their watch is worth another $450-500.

Which Coros watch is the competitor of the Garmin 955?

Not giving up my Garmin (Epix2) anytime soon. I do think at some point (a few years), Apple's Software will be magnitudes better. I don't see Garmin competing with Apple in terms of Software. Apple will win this war.

I don't think the market is big enough (for Apple's market) for Apple to care and throw recourses at this project

I just think the standard software on all Apple watches will be better than Garmin at some point in the future.

They didn't release the Ultra for no reason. I'm not following your point.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Yeah, Apple will certainly try to focus on multisport. However I think this watch will be more of a "jack of all trades, master of none", in the sense that it'll never do pure multi-sport activities as well as Garmin and Wahoo. Design limitations that focus on ease of use and user experience (like a touch screen) will certainly keep me firmly rooted in the Garmin ecosystem for now.

I think part of the swirl on this topic is that the subject is way too broad. It's a no-brainer that Apple is aiming for the endurance athlete market. They made that abundantly clear in 2015 when they were sponsoring Christy Turlington Burns and then in 2016 with the Nike+ edition. And that is again super clear now with a triathlon mode and ads claiming the Ultra can cover a 140.6.

Apple is probably not "coming for Garmin" across their entire running and multisport product suite. But they probably are targeting the niche within the endurance market of people who do some triathlons and distance running but do not care about the watch's performance. Just because of the nature of the AW platform, it will always have many little behavioral and performance compromises relative to a pure multisport watch. So, there is a segment of buyers that would probably never consider an AW. However, there is a healthy segment that probably would.

Consider that Garmin has a broad range of products directly in this space from the Forerunner 55 at $200 USD to the Enduro watches at $1,100 USD.

Only Apple knows the part of that market they are targeting, but my gut feel is that they are unlikely to get many people considering a 255 or 55, simply due to cost. And someone dropping $1K on a multisport watch is probably buying it for its looks and image, not its technical features. So that buyer would be unlikely to downgrade to an Ultra. A triathlete who regularly trains and races with a watch is also unlikely to pick an Apple Watch due to its compromises and fragmented platform. So, which is it?

My hunch is that they would likely get buyers of something like the epix or fenix. Those buyers are choosing those watches because they are something different from a pure triathlon watch, and they fall in the price range of the Ultra. For the epix, it would be the amazing screen (which equals or betters the AW screens). For the fenix, it might be the extreme battery life, style, or rugged look. My hunch is that Garmin probably won't see many regular triathletes or ultra athletes defecting from the 255 and 955 lines. At least not for a very long time.

This is completely conjecture on my part:

They are going to find that this watch doesn't make much money compared to their phones, computers, ipods, tablets, etc... which they sell by the millions.

When they realize they are only going to sell a few hundred thousand multisport watches at most, they are going to back away from the project.

One more thought... I think the watches with the biggest threat are Wahoo RIVAL & Suunto 9. Here's my thinking... The Garmin 955 (and even the 255) is the pointy end of the spear for total performance. They are perfected for multisport and they do everything in a fully vertically integrated ecosystem, while horizontally integrating with nearly every other platform in existence. Wahoo and Suunto probably get a lot of buyers who do not want an everything watch and do not want a Garmin. So, the Ultra could be a sweet alternative to those buyers.

I bet that the Ultra is a greater threat to the Suunto 9 Peak first and then the Wahoo RIVAL second.

Not really sure. Maybe the Apex Pro? I haven’t really compared garmin to coros models. I think the 955 may be more feature rich, but may cost a bit more.

I’m currently using a Polar Vantage M that does all that I need, though the Coros Pace 2 for $199 is tempting. If they have a big Black Friday sale, I may just jump on one.

From their website, it looks to me like the Apex Pro as well.

I'd really like to see one in person.

i woud certainly not say that garmin devices are perfected - every single one i've had up to and including the 955 has significant bugs, not to mention usability niggles. i suspect what you really mean is that they are specifically designed for multisport which is absolutely true and something apple are unlikely to ever match.

i'd also question how well integrated the garmin ecosystem is - i just had to get my 955 replaced due to said bugs and that meant going back to scratch with setup and the device having to learn my hrv patterns etc, despite having previously established all this. physio trueup between my edge and my forerunner is limited too as a result of mismatched feature sets, despite both being latest generation.

garmin have a lot of work to do to achieve what is generally expected of consumer technology these days. a lot of those expectations were established by apple and they remain well ahead of garmin in that respect which for many less serious athletes will more than make up for the less sport specific features.

but yes, garmin may well benefit from apple taking out the other competitors first

Yes, the context of my statement is that Garmin's design is optimized (perfected) for multisport use. They are not perfect quality. Garmin is by far the most vertically integrated platform of any brand, by a lot. Wahoo is emerging, but they do not have a viable web tier and only a couple device categories. Suunto and Hammerhead have a killer partnership, but their web tier and product breadth are limited. Coros and Polar are also relatively basic in this space. Fitbit is probably more integrated than most. Apple is probably most simlar to Coros and Polar, if they are even that good, so they probably have the furthest to go. The cliche "there's an app for that" is not effective in this space. I think that Apple will need to take ownership of the app fragmentation - either directly or through partnerships - to get quality and user experience where it needs to be to compete.

You can throw little pebbles like your HRV re-onboarding or true-up limitations with older devices. But Garmin is still way out ahead of everyone else. The true-up things will go away as they roll out the rest of their Edge x40 bike computer suite. I do wish they would share HRV, SPO2, and other metrics across devices, but I think they have some intentional reason for keeping things like HRV data on-device.

What significant bug have you had with the 955?

Just got my Apple Watch Ultra this past weekend. It’s a big upgrade over my Series 6.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Also just got my 955 this past weekend. Big upgrade from 945. But honestly, and from a sports watch perspective, the Apple 6 could not even compete with the 925. They serve different segments.

I disagree but also understand where you are coming from. They both can track swims, runs, bike rides, etc.

Garmin battery life is the big seller but if you stream music podcasts etc. the battery life drops.

I can upload Apple Watch data to Strava, Training Peaks, and other apps.

The only difference is the Garmin vs Apple platform.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The only difference is the platform and the battery. I have a Fenix 5s that I've had for 3 years. I can get about 6 or 7 days out of the battery which includes several hours of GPS enabled workouts. If I'm not working out at all, it's about 10 days. Apple is coming closer though, and as an iPhone user I'm interested to see what they do next.

Yup. Apple is so far ahead of everyone else on smart watches. A first gen product will become better as time goes on.

I want Apple to create a web portal for analyzing data and making custom workouts.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Coming from using Garmin watches since 2006 with very few complaints, and using AWs concurrently since 2018, the Ultra is very appealing. I'm currently using an AW7 as my "daily driver" and a 955 for sport-related activities.

That being said, I'd go all-in and get an Ultra, except for a couple nuances:
* I'm used to the manual rest mode while swimming; automatic rest drives me a little batty (I've tried it on my AW7)
* No distance alerts while swimming on the AW with the default Workout app; not sure if something like WorkOutDoors has that, but I like being able to "just keep swimming" and my 955 taps me when I'm almost done with my set
* Having to use "yet another" app to get all the data from Apple's "walled garden" to Strava/TP and then export to GC. The data's there, it can be done, but it's another step.

Battery life for me isn't as big of an issue, as I don't race full-distance events. As long as it can survive a 10-hour hike, though, I'm a happy camper (pun intended).

Are these things I can get over? Sure. Do I want to? That's the question that's been tormenting me since launch.

YMMV

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

You hit on a few of the many little items that differentiate Apple's smart watch approach to supporting fitness versus a focused fitness-first device. The AW can do a lot of this, but there are a many things it struggles to do well. IMHO, Apple would have to massively beef up its native workout app, give it one or two more hard buttons (option to repurpose the crown & side button during workouts), and massively enhance the mobile app. They still would have the gap of no web tier and the automated integration that brings, but other competing products without web tiers are already out there.

Apple Watch sub-optimizations relative to a pure bread device like a Coros, Garmin, Polar, Suunto, Wahoo, etc. (This focuses on Apple's native apps and sets aside the "there's an app for that," because that is actually part of the AW problem.)

• Odd “segments” & “laps” splits data structure
• Swimming cannot manually start & stop interval laps
• No ecosystem of adjacent products & features – highly fragmented app environment
• Limited vertical platform – no web and basic phone UI
• Limited screen and data field tailoring
• No performance analytics
• No accessory device support except through 3rd party apps
• No “Daily Report” type feeds (possible “with an app for that,” but even more fragmented)
• Touchscreen UI accidents - touch just does not work as well and easily as hard button watches
• Data sharing semi-manual
• Battery life
• Not really always-on
• Basic & tedious structured workouts - doing this on the watch is a royal PITA
• Activity start countdown
• Heavy - its about 50% heavier than most race-oriented multisport devices
• No mapping
  

This is just my short list, off the top of mind, from my experiences using almost every generation of AW alongside Garmin, Suunto, and Wahoo watches.

Note WSJ mention ms Apple is eager to court Garmin users and why there not quite winning us over yet.

https://apple.news/ALwUI3HyYTI2utdPbWxyo4w

Good article. They did get some of the AWU features/details wrong, but on the whole, it points out exactly why we (triathletes, long-distance hikers, endurance athletes of all kinds) aren't moving over yet. AWU2, maybe...if they can fix some of the niggly things that Garmin gets so right.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

I got the Ultra, having had three generations of Fenix and one Garmin 945.

Part of what I wanted was a cellular option for emergencies that allows me to leave my phone at home.

Frankly, I find the Ultra rather annoying and poorly developed. Lap swims are awful, and the workout app is inadequate compared to Garmin’s functionality and options.

What I find amazing is that they block 3rd party devs from utilizing the individual buttons, so only the Workout app can lap/pause with the left and right side buttons. Touch screen is beyond useless while running or swimming. No power meter support? Only two concurrent bluetooth connections? Why?

There is an app called WorkOutDoors, which is compatible with bluetooth power meters, and allows fairly fine-grained metrics, but one is limited to using the crown or simultaneous two-button press for functiom shortcuts. Better than what Apple offers by default, but it’s still handcuffed by the odd restrictions.

I’ll stick with it for the cellular functionality, but the workout user experience is absurdly basic, out of the box, and maybe only passable with the WorkOutDoors app.

I will say my open water swim GPS has never looked so good with Fenix 2,3,5x or Forerunner 945.

I kept my Ultra and ran with it for 10 days, then I returned it and got a nice stainless steel Series 8 for my daily wear. I kept my Fenix 7XSS and I’m glad I did. The Ultra as v1 gives some good clues, I think, as to what will come. I found it really uncomfortable to sleep with, and as others said the activity tracking is still pretty basic. Once it’s got built-in, routable mapping and nav, I’ll give it another look.

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The Forerunner 945LTE (which is actually closer to a 955 than a 945) gives you the best of both worlds.... super critical that my wife can track me these days after having some medical issues, and the Garmin LTE option is fantastic.

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Team Zoot

This is why I just carry my phone. I've done it for years, it sends alerts to my 955 and incident detection and Live Track work just fine.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

The WorkOutDoors developer is active in a thread on MacRumors. There's now a beta version of WOD that makes use of the action button. I suspect it will go live soon.

I have the Ultra. The Apple workout app is pretty pathetic, BUT two third-party apps--WorkOutDoors and MySwimCoach--allow me to do as much, if not more, on the Ultra than I can do on my 945 LTE. Both are really well done and allow you to customize just about everything (other than the action button and that's coming).

Two different approaches:

-My Garmin came with most of what I need, and almost all of the CIQ apps I've tried to use are either very awkward to use and/or really buggy.

-The AWU didn't come with most of what I need, but I'm very impressed with these two third-party apps.

I'll probably keep the AWU because it integrates so much better with my iPhone than my Garmin does. And obviously, the AWU wins easily for the smartwatch features.

The thing with Apple (and I am not a fan) is that what they lack in expertise - they have deep enough pockets to find and hire those that do. Garmin Market cap is 17 billion. Apple has 100 billon or so in cash just sitting around. It could actually just buy Garmin if it wanted. So, they can catch up and quickly if they actually wanted too. Hire the right people and pay them the right amount and you get what you want plus some.

This is what seems frustrating. How could they fail so badly for the Ultra? Why would you have 3 buttons (5 if you count scroll wheel up+down) and not enable their functionality by default, when they should know the screen is unresponsive when it is sweaty/wet? You can't even really customize the workout screens very much. It's wild how out of touch the user experience seems. It's as if they hired one person that doesn't use or care about the features, and let them release a beta version.

Phone tether works great except when racing. LTE fills that gap.

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Team Zoot

My suspicion is that in time we'll end up trained to do things their way, just as we were with Apple Watch for daily wear and iPhone before it. There will be a great deal going on at Apple Park right now to address some, if not all, of the complaints they'll be hearing loud and clear. Jurek et al won't just be there for the ads. I suspect they'll be chiming in with a lot of "it really needs to do x,y,z". I just don't think that going all out on v1 is the way to go when you need to sell a boatload of them to people who don't care about stuff like Next Fork, Body Battery, or any one of a stack of other features ST readers use.

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these 2 posts nicely encapsulate the apple strategy: don't allow other developers to use much of the functionality so that you lock users in and can provide better integration within your own device suites over mixing and matching.

as it happens though, the main thing holding me back from getting an iphone is that they won't let my garmin devices send text messages like i can through android. its great being able to quickly respond to a text through my garmin while on the go

I agree with much of what's been said above. For better or for worse, this is what Apple does. Build good hardware, put terrible native software on it, and rely on third-party app developers to do the software work for you (look at the native notes/reminders/calendar apps on iPhones and the gazillion third-party apps available for all of those purposes).

And as somebody mentioned above, they have enough money to buy anything that they really like. I don't think they'll buy Garmin. But could they buy, say, Whoop and incorporate its algorithm into the Apple ecosystem? That would seem like it might make sense for both parties (since Whoop bands seem like a bit of a dead-end product to me).