Not sure what you mean about reference power. With a 2T you can display your power on an app and then use your bike computer to display the power from your PM on your bike for comparison?

With a Kickr, it can set the target watts for ERG mode based on your Quarq/P2M/External PM rather than the internal one. I'd like to know if this is newly supported in the Neo 2T.

It is true, but not really a factor in real-life use. Most trainer apps have a PowerMatch feature. The KICKR is unique in that it can directly pair the trainer to a power meter. Personally, I prefer the control of being able to turn it on or off from my trainer program, but you could make that invisible with the KICKR. I have had both a KICKR and have a Neo. Here is my quick decision tree between the two:

• The Neo feels great, it may be smoother and more natural than the KICKR
• The Neo is huge, ungainly, and difficult to carry; as bulky, 50 lbs. objects go, the KICKR is relatively easy to carry around
  
• The glowing LED under the Neo is really cool
  
• I like that you do not need to block the front wheel with a KICKR
• The slight sway the Neo allows is a huge feel upgrade; supposedly the new feet on the KICKR allow some movement as well
  
• My Neo reads about 20W lower than my Assioma pedals at high freewheel speeds; they are improving it with firmware, but the KICKR is more consistent across all flywheel speeds
  
• The Neo works without power, which is super cool
• I am a TrainerRoad guy, so I will never experience the Neo's other slick features like downhill coasting simulation and road surface simulation
• The 2T supposedly fixed the virtual tire slip thing that plagued earlier models

That's a good workaround. Thanks.

Prices being equal, which would you prefer?

I'm leaning towards the Kickr because it has fewer bike compatibility issues (chain stays & disc brake calipers), is more portable, and seems to be a more refined product. But, I like that the Neo 2T is immediately available and doesn't require external power.

IMHO, they are both equals of awesomeness. As far as refinement, they are equals. So, the decision comes to personal factors. You mentioned portability and compatibility, so I recommend the KICKR based on those two.

I love the NEO's side-to-side movement. So, I would have to give a KICKR 5 a test ride to see how much movement it has. If equal, then I would probably get a KICKR today because it is a little more compact. But, most likely, I would stick with the Neo because the sway comes from movement at the flywheel, not flex in the feet.

The Neo's ability to ride without power is really a non-factor. Kind of like the KICKR's internal PowerMatch. It is highly unlikely that you would use that feature in your training cave, since you already have power for your training app. And, there is no universe where I would ever take a Neo to a race to warm up. It is too much of a beast to move.

Thanks for the feedback.

When I was trying to decide between a Neo 2 and a Kickr it pretty much came down to you really can't go wrong with either. Both are awesome with slight differences.

In the end what broke the tie for me is that DCR said that when not testing trainers the one he rides is usually a Neo. I don't remember if he said that in response to a question in the comments or in the main body of an article.

Again, you can't go wrong with either.

Sure, both are good but unless you use Climb, I don't see any benefits to the Wahoo. Meanwhile the Neo has greater sway and is a bit quieter. Unless the next Hammer becomes silent, I'll be getting a Neo

I am a recent Neo 2T user. I upgraded after 3 years using a Flux.

I will only add to the perfect description made by exxxviii the following points:
- In my case the difference between Quarq D-Zero and NEO 2T is between 4w to 6w. I checked it in sessions with different intensities from Endurance to FRC or Vo2.
- The point of "virtual pull slip thing that plagued earlier models" is solved. Rolling in Rouvy at low speed, high climb gradient at about 6 to 7 w/kg this does not happen.
- The simulation of descents is excellent, as well as the simulation of different types of terrain (asphalt, gravel, wood, cobblestones). Of course they add quality to the real training, but they are very good additions.

I never used a Kickr so I can't compare, but I can tell you that the NEO 2T was an excellent buy and improved indoor workouts a lot.


Any other question is welcome.

Strong vote for Neo. I think it is more accurate power wise, quieter, and the road feel feature in Zwift is pretty sweet.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

In an effort to cut off analysis paralysis, I ordered the Neo 2T. It was $1250 shipped, which was about the same price as the Kickr, and it was immediately available. I needed something to motivate me to ride indoors, I really don't enjoy it. I'm hoping this helps.

Now that I've hit submit in my shopping cart, you can expect Tacx to announce the Neo 3.

Not to put a kink in your plan if you want it immediately but Neos are going on sale later this fall for a significant discount

So the Neo 3 is coming

I have no idea. That would make sense I suppose.

All trainers go on sale each fall as part of individual retailer sales for VIP/members/etc. That said, I wouldn't assume the same will actually happen this year. After all, retailers can't keep trainers in stock - so there's little reason to give people a 20% discount.

As for other trainers, I don't foresee any other major player new trainer announcements this year.

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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

No, I’m not speculating based on past history, I’m saying I’ve already been offered such a deal from specific retailer on a 2T. I think it was even posed on ST.

Gotcha

This makes a lot of sense. No reason for the retailer to give a large discount when they can't even keep them in stock.

In addition, 2020 has slowed or halted a lot of R&D, manufacturing and production. I'm thinking a lot of new bikes won't hit the market this fall either like they do most years?

In regards to the 2T or Kickr, I went with the 2T and love it. I like how quiet it is compared to my old manual trainer. It's so quiet that the other day I thought the flywheel was making a strange noise. Turns out it was my sweat soaked bibs rubbing back and forth on my saddle making a slight squeak. All I could think is how silent the trainer is for me to hear that noise. Road feel is awesome. The accuracy is good and I'd rather it report lower watts than higher if it's going to be off. I like the simulated descents. I also like that you don't have to buy a Kickr Climb as a separate and costly addition to the Kickr.

Which retailer?

I bought my 2T from REI. I think new members get a first purchase with 20% off. That is what I did. I paid for a membership and then got a hefty discount.

Same here, and damn it is a huge upgrade from my Computrainer. I'm really thrilled! (Cue the scene from Fleabag)

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Live long and surf!

Been a member forever. Was expecting a 20% off coupon for Labor Day, but there’s only one for the outlet.

Great minds think alike!

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...octorusa%20#p7074703

Just FYI

"You'd have to be completely out of your mind to consider a Garmin Neo at this time." (at ~18:40 if you don't watch the whole video)

This guy seems pretty credible, though kinda bitter.




Edit: I'm a happy Neo 2 (not T) owner, so far.

One customer with a bad experience and I would have to be out of my mind to buy??? Is there a product anywhere on the planet that doesn’t have at least one customer with a bad experience? Good info to know, but I’ll go with the masses, and dcrainmaker.

Did you watch the video? He's talking about far more than a single bad experience.

He may be wrong. I'm not advocating his position. But he's laying out pretty broad evidence covering a variety of different issues.

First, all I did was post sale info on the 2T. I haven't used it and am not advocating for using it. Second, yeah, I watched the video. One disgruntled customer posting about it on the internet. He may be 100% right. Or not. As I said, good info, and I'm glad you posted it here, but "out of my mind to buy" at this point is internet hyperbole, at least at this point.

Wow. I could only make it half way through. Dude is real bitter. And I’m sure he was a pain in ass to deal with. Not saying he’s wrong (he’s probably right) but he needs relax a little.

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Yeah, I agree. And I think he's really stretching his point about a non replaceable bearing being a "time bomb."

Bearings can last for a decade or more, particularly in clean locations like in a trainer. Just because it's not replaceable doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot without mean time between failure statistics. Which may be low on the 2T, but that's not entirely clear.

No offense to Ray but his “use case” is different than most of us. He’s testing different trainers all the time, so I can’t see him putting the time/miles on a single trainer that we do. While his reviews are the best out there, it lacks any sort of long term perspective (eg; how is the kickr/neo performance after 5-10k miles).

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Obviously....I could be wrong but I thought the Neo was his personal choice of trainer.

Haha... yeah I agree on the time bomb perspective. It’s definitely a reach. With that mindset, you could argue that kickr’s are a time bomb with their noise issue that many have had. When I think of a trainer time bomb, I think of the bloody picture that was posted here a few years ago after a computrainer exploded.

Back to the neo, if the bearing is already bad, I’d be asking what’s different? Why didn’t the neo2 bearing last longer? Just replacing the bearing is a short term solution (I’m assuming the bearings are failing much sooner than they should).

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I believe you are right as I remember reading that . But how much does he actually get to use the Tacx? Is he riding it ~5-7 hours a week for 10-12 months out of the year? Even if he does ride it that much, how much use does that trainer get when the next version comes out 1-1.5 years after the previous version was released? There’s very few people buying a new trainer after every new release. I think most people are expecting to get 3 years minimal (probably more like 5) out of their trainer.

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Folks,

To take this conversation on a bit of a tangent, I'd like your opinion here. Attached is the power profile, as measured by the trainer and recorded on a fenix 6x, for a simple ERG workout executed through Zwift.

I came from a Tacx Vortex, and this graph seems mighty noisy. Would other Neo2T users mind sharing their power-time curves so I can compare?

I thought so too, until I did some digging. The NEO 2 had some flywheel slippage problems that weren't resolvable without a warranty replacement. If you're out of warranty or a second owner, you are out of luck. The 2T bearing issue is one of a host of issues on the 2T. I value longevity in my products and user serviceability and so I bought an original Tacx Neo. These command a high price here because they are known for being robust. The bearings need serviced every year or two, depending on how much you ride on it.

Having had nothing but issue with the Wahoo Kickrs of the last 3 years, including the 2018 version, I realised my time with wahoo was over. It's a LOT of money to be spending on a product that only starts to breakdown after 6 months when you have just gotten used to using it.

One thing I will say: Tacx were a good company before they became Garmin-ized. In our triathlon club a lot of people have the original and they are still going despite being years old - and that's with half the people not even giving it a service of any kind. My friend has had 3 Neo2T units in a row and all have had problems. Throwaway culture is ruining the planet, so invest wisely in what you purchase. A 1 year warranty (or 2 years in Europe) isn't long enough for something of this nature that should last for many years.

FWIW, i have found the opposite to be the case since garmin bought tacx. prior to that transaction, tacx was invisible in the US. no office. not tech support. nothing. at least, nothing that i could find, and i'm in the industry.

garmin has a pretty darned good reputation for responding to customers, and in my experience, they have overlaid that onto tacx. perhaps it's different in europe. but, before the company sale, if you bought a tacx, getting in touch with tacx was a fruitless experience.

as regards the "disposable" nature of products made, while i agree with you in broad strokes, i think it's a stretch to lay that claim onto garmin.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A friend who works for garmin informed me two years ago that things in management were changing for the worse. It is cheaper for them, he said, to provide warranty replacements to users who notice unfixed issued (issues hardware changeout may not even help) and then, after the warranty expires, the user is forced to buy a new garmin.

If you or any friends have a recent garmin watch ( >3 years) ask them to check the rear optical heart rate sensor. Most will be cracked, but the user hasn't noticed. Then it will dawn on them that their optical HR metrics have been way off for a long time, getting worse readings. It's one of the most common recent garmin watch faults. Garmin prefer to swap it out whilst within warranty and then, out of the warranty period, will tell you that it doesn't affect the waterproofing or function of the watch. It does affect the waterproofing.

That is one example. I could mention the new poor design of heart rate chest straps, that are integrated into the strap and break when trying to change the battery - the seal can never be made again properly unless you're a watch repairer. Overall they have transitioned to a company that sees a high rate of defect returns and they expect people to get annoyed eventually and just switch to a newer watch hoping that the issue is fixed. I am not excusing other brands and their faults but garmin operate on this new style cycle of waste-inducing hardware that isn't fit for the modern world.

you're a new user. your first post was to bash garmin. okay. i'm relying on my prior relationship with tacx, and my current relationship with tacx post-garmin-sale. that is, i'm relying on my experience. i know a fair number of people who work at garmin, who i consider personal friends, and i have heard nothing like what your apparent friend apparently told you. and, i'm writing you as someone who has a reputation of coming to wahoo's defense at the expense of garmin. i think you're pissing up a rope trying to get folks here to jump onto your view of garmin. but you're welcome to try. i just wonder what the over/under is on your "friend" who used to work at garmin being "you" who used to work at garmin.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Can you elaborate? never heard of this. I have basically all the Garmin HR straps (from the original plastic ones, to fabric ones, to HRM-Run, HRM-Tri, HRM-dual), and have already swapped batteries on all of them, wasn't even aware that i might have broken something. Just checked my Fenix 3 HR. knock on wood!

Edit, haven't changed battery on the HRM-dual yet. is that the one you are referring to? seems to be the same construction (outwardly) as the HRM fabric version?

The 2T issue is pretty bad though... Lucky enough, my original Neo is still going strong. Especially on the piece where Garmin seemed to have made the decision to not offer support for Neo prior to the Garmin acquisition. I would definitely stay clear of the Neo until Garmin can re-establish their reputation here. That stance is unacceptable (anti-consumer), in my opinion.

And at least in my experience with non-trainer devices, Garmin has had good warranty service. I might have had gripes with their product designs, and their prices for out of warranty replacement had definitely go up (which I am not the happiest about, but many companies don't even offer service out of warranty). So far, they have not left me completely hanging with out of warranty issues yet... Never asked for proof of purchase, just S/N.

Everyone has a "friend" who works at a company where they believe that management is changing for the worse. Even if the friend exists, that doesn't provide any legitimacy to the claim. When I hear you (i.e., Dan) make this statement, when I hear Steve Dodds at Bicycledoctor say that his experience in selling these types of products is that Garmin's customer service is, as a whole (of course, everyone has a story), the best, I put far more stock in those statements than a friend of a disgruntled employee who is upset at the way his employer treated him, and thereafter, proclaims the overall deterioration of management.

Service might be good. But he's right that garmin products have many well known issues that don't get addressed. I've experienced the faulty altimeter and cracked HR glass. The lack of fixes at least suggest that its a business decision to replace them within warranty and forcing out-of-warranty cases to buy new.

No experience with the Neo, but I'm on my 4th Kickr. First two developed a loud squeal. Third rumbled and vibrated. Hopefully, the fourth is the charm.

While the service has been good, it's a pain in the ass to return and I'm pretty tired of doing it.

If the fourth is bad, I'll be getting a refund.

Also, why jump on a new joiner calling out issues that have endless threads about them and are known quantities? Garmin products don't have a reputation for durability even if their service is great. I agree it's a wasteful way to do business even if I continue to buy their products.

For someone who doesn't like their "integrity impugned" when biases show (it's ok we all have them), you could give people the benefit of doubt.

in the 20 years this forum has been around, the rule that prohibits harshing on an industry brand in good standing with your first post has proven its value. i complimented this same new user on his post in the unix/zwift thread. but i generally find it bad form for a user to choose as his intro to the community harshing on a brand. you've been here quite awhile yourself; i don't think this is news to you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's fair. I agree that a complaint isn't a great way to introduce yourself.

I had a 735xt with a cracked optical HR that was out of warranty (3 years after purchase). I called Garmin and was initially told that it was out of warranty, and they would replace it with a refurb for $100. I pushed back and said that after a basic search on the Internet it was obvious that they had an issue with cracking on their optical HR sensors and they ended up sending me the refurb 735 at zero cost.

Sure, there are exceptions to everything. The point stands. Great service, poor quality, wasteful.

Dan - what this user said about Garmin HR straps is unfortunately true.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

that may well be true. it could be that his entire post is exactly accurate. or not. it's immaterial. it just can't be the first post. when we start judging first posts by their accuracy, then we lose our prohibition on trial-by-internet. my main interest isn't wahoo, or garmin, or the fidelity of heart rate monitors. it's the health of the community. it's like spam. about half of all new user accounts here are spam. i catch most of them. if i don't catch them at the point of new account registration, i hope to catch them when they post. but you occasionally see them. should i allow all the spammers, because occasionally there's a spam you might find useful? we can either judge the fidelity of the each new first post on its merits, or we can just say: no spammers; and no setting up an account to exercise scratch your trial-by-internet itch.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hijacking this thread a little bit. I have a Neo2 (not T). And my biggest problem is that one of the bikes I'd like to use on it, essentially doesn't fit because of clearance issues. It's a 58cm Cervelo NP3, and the left chain stay contacts the trainer body. Just barely, but enough to squeak when I ride - I'm just not going to use it on that trainer. Also, I'm getting the annoying slippage at high wattage, particularly at low cadence, and I'm a low cadence type.

Does the Kickr have any such clearance issues?

I totally agree, but if that’s what you took from that poster’s point—or Dan’s response—you were missing the point. He wasn’t just pointing out the problem of poor HR straps that we likely have all experienced. He was suggesting the overall demise of an entire brand based on the opinion of a (likely) disgruntled employee in his first, or one of his first posts. Even against that backdrop, At first, I thought Dan’s response was a bit strong, but completely appreciate his perspective in having to deal with this crap/“protecting” us from all the behind the scenes stuff about which we are blissfully ignorant but allow this forum to function at a high level. For that, we owe him our gratitude.

I own a Neo 2 (not a 2T). I have to say, that video resonates. I'll grant you, he's a bit over-the-top with the "Time Bomb" thing but the entirety of that video is at least enough to convince me to not to dare upgrading my Neo 2 firmware for a while.

Part of the reason I bought my Neo 2 is that I really had an impression of TACX as a top-notch quality company. After 16+ years of using Garmin products, I've long had an impression of them as... significantly less than that. I did not even realize that Garmin had bought TACX.

Whatever you think about the guy in this video, he knows his stuff.

To update my earlier post, it appears Garmin has yanked the anticipated Neo 2T sale at least until the end of the year. I’ll be curious to see how much, if at all, trainers get discounted for BF. On the one hand, people have come to expect it. On the other, there’s a clear shortage and big demand worldwide. So, if they want to take advantage of that situation, the market would probably allow them to do so, although there may be other reputations repercussions for doing that.


As to the video, like I said, it’s information to consider. I did give the video some thought, as well as other reviews out there. EVery brand has some issues. After considering all the pros/cons, availability and pricing, I ended up buying a Neo 2T. Like every purchase like this, at this point, all I can do is cross my fingers and hope it works out for me. The cycleops fluid trainer I am coming from had years of use and countless miles and worked as well at the end as when I purchased at a price of maybe $200ish. I do wonder, or at least hope, that in 2-3 years I still feel like I upgraded with my $1000+ purchase.

are you saying the NEO 2T has been pulled from the market, and is not for sale? because i tallked to garmin yesterday and they said that they're selling it right now.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Oh geeez, no, sorry if my post came across that way! In fact, I just received mine yesterday!! I was referring to a holiday "sale" like a promotion or discount that was anticipated to be forthcoming and was recently told by Garmin that it will no longer be offering that promotion at least through the end of the year. Maybe, promotions will still be available through retailers. I don't know. I just know that demand is way up and supply is down. So, personally, I just decided to buy mine now rather than hope (1) for a holiday discount and (2) the product remains available when I try to take advantage of the discount.

okay. thx. i traded a number of emails with garmin yesterday. i expressed to them what appears to me a janky way that information about tacx gets information out. it seems we're all getting it from drew (tacx faqx), but thru the prism of garmin disgruntlement. drew is very ass-chapped about the sale to garmin, and he complains of the garmin "wall of silence" when from my perspective it's always been the tacx wall of silence. but this is, i presume, because i have a relationship with garmin and never could generate one with tacx, as hard as i tried, and drew has a relationship with tacx and never developed one with garmin. but i don't know. what i do know is that there ought to be a more transparent understanding of how to successfully own a product.

that said, i just this morning was given an unsolicited recitation from a dear colleague on a transaction involving a 2017 kickr that sounds like you couldn't switched the name to NEO. bearings. out of warranty. unable to change. crash replacement price on a new kickr. so, this appears just the state of things, and i think we probably need to recognize both the failings, and the successes, of our big industry players, rather than deciding to champion one brand to the exclusion of the other.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Garmin_HRMs_easily_breaks_P7348177/?search_string=garmin%20hrm#p7348177


It's the version(s) with the electronics permanently built into the strap, as opposed to the one where the electronics pod was connected with press-studs. To change the battery of the ones that quite a few people (not all) have struggled with you take off the rubber oval (red, yellow, blue) and then unscrew.


Anyway, back to the (semi) OP. I've 2 of the original NEOs, one used heavily for last 3 years, the other less so (one mine, one my wife's no judgement ;-) ) No issues (touch wood).


Historically I've suffered from the Tacx 'support' as I was the owner of an original Tacx I-magic. More calories lost swearing at trying to get the software to talk to the trainer than I ever expended riding around the velodrome or RLV courses.

Equally, in NZ and with support from Garmin AU then mostly I've found it very frustrating (2.5 months for a warranty HRM-run strap, 4 months to refund a double charge for $300 of spare strap and the initial HRM-run). However, to be fair, then on one occasion they did go to a good place when they posted the replacement FR935 due to the very common broken altimeter and cracked optical HR on receipt of the tracking number of the one I posted back. Ie I was only without a watch for a single overnight.


As said, pretty much all manufacturers have products with systematic flaws, or one off device issues. The key is the customer service when you need to call on it. Quarq is an example of that. Lots of people had issues, especially when they've dropped a chain onto inside of the chainring, in past waterproof issues on the early models. But boy did they put it right in a reassuring way. And I LOVE that they have a phone number, an email address and reply with a name that means you can follow up with that individual.


So both trainers will get you fitter. Both have added features on the fringe. Neither is 'best'.

I can't speak for garmin but Wahoo have outstanding customer service. I've had three issues, two with a kickr during the infamous Vietnam handover and once with a Tickr, each time they replaced the products with brand new ones without hesitation or any back and forth, two of which were technicaly outside of warranty.

And for this reason I will continue to buy Wahoo products. I HATE when you have to get aggressive with companies to get them to do the right thing by their customers, when you have a company that shows they actually care and replace items without the normal back and forth agro it makes a HUGE difference.

Is Wahoo Climb compatible with Tacx Neo?

No it is not. The climb needs to connect directly to the kickr unit itself to work unfortunately

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Strava