I would probably go with the Zipp still for the resale value, but the Enve 7 performed well in the independent wind tunnel test that some STers helped fund back in 2017. Granted the test was more about testing the Corsa tire than anything. It did perform better than that HED JET 6+ (only 60mm deep) with the tires and PSI selected. I know we love to geek out about equipment but unless your races are razor thin margins either one is going to be a great option, but I would probably go with the Enve for versatility. Would just feel better riding it in strong cross winds.

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Thanks Thomas. I'm decently big/heavy (6'0", 155-160 lbs) so riding a 808 on the front in cross winds hasn't been a huge concern, but I hear you. I was previously riding a pre-Firecrest 808 and Zipp disc on my P4, and never had an issue in cross winds (but never raced in any really bad conditions).

.. because of the interaction between the parts of the whole system some frame manufacturers recommend wheels for lowest measured drag [in the wt] // very generally .. ENVEs fit well in modern frames .. HEDs are all & race day wharp wheels .. ZIPPs need DT Swiss hubs if they have to roll around the globe .. and there are so many others with specific specs ..

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It seems generally, that x-spokes (4-spokes e.g.) are used in timetrials in professional races.
I wonder why triathletes ignore this fact, and always choose spokewheels.
When I would buy a new wheelset, it would clearly be a disk behind and an x-spoke on the front.
As an exception, for very windy conditions (Hawaii, Lanzarote) I would mount a lower rim spokewheel.

Any particular reason for this rule? It seemed from reports a while back that unless you were nearing 50kmph then the interaction of yaw/wind/spoke count/rim depth/whatever other term people want to throw around, then the tri/x/5 spokes are slower than say, top 50-90mm front wheels... Given that most tri races are ridden at 40-ish kmph, it seems that less spokes (well, less than 12) are less popular for a reason?

I do not have hard facts for my assumption. It just struck me that you see professional cyclists often with x-spokes in the front.
Since disks are faster than any wheel, it also seems logical to me that an x-spoke is faster than a spokewheel. Just an assumption though, as I said.
I do not believe that windtunneltests are revealing in this case, because of the rotational drag discussion which I do not want to start here. Track-tests would be interesting in this case.

On my P5d I have Zipp 858/disc. I have been riding Zipps since the late 80s (about when they started). I have had about everything they have ever made (wheels) and have never had any problems. They have always been responsive on questions. Until something is really proven better, or the go downhill I suppose, I will probably stay loyal to them. BTW, I also train on Zipp 302s on the P5d and I am a bit surprised just how much I am enjoying those wheels.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Enve has a lifetime warranty which is nice... even lifetime crash replacement I believe.

You might as well ask whether there's a consensus on which political party is best.

Paraphrasing what someone from FLO once said:

"The differences between non-aero wheels and aero wheels is big, but the differences between aero wheels of similar depth are relatively small, and there are too many variables (course/whether/frame/rider) to say one brand/model is always better than another. Pick an aero wheel set you like, and race."

The chances of you losing a win/podium/KQ because you chose Enve over Zipp, or Zipp over Enve, are pretty damn small. Just pick the set that you like and race.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

It takes a pretty low yaw angle for those to be quicker. World Tour and high level amateur TT riders are racing at speeds well above the winners of full IM's. Meaning angles that are in the ballpark for those wheels. Sure, some are point to point TT's, but some have some elevation also and the WT guys are still above 30mph. With parts going downhill (with high actual windspeeds vs downwind) well exceeding 30mph. Or, even shorter prologue TT's that are only a couple miles. Those guys will do those little prologue TT's close to 500w.

And just like that, this thread was over.

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- Jordan

My Strava

Take the front rotor off :) I'm only slightly kidding, but the data suggests that anything with rotors is quite a bit slower than anything with rotors :)

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
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Ahahahaha!

You can have these discs when you pry them from my cold, dead hands!

(And it's a bit shameless, but I've been really loving the Flo 90's.

-Eric

This is the reason I just switched from Zipp to Enve. I cracked a Super 9 disc and the replacement cost was hardly a discount. I would train on cheap wheels and switch over to Zipps on race day. Now I can run my Enve 7.8s as training and race wheels with little fear with that crash replacement policy. I'm 5'10 175lbs FOP biker and have bent 2 HED wheels and Zipp disc on descents so that warranty is a big plus in my eyes.

Just finished reading Bradley Wiggins book, when he won the tour he would talk about settling into 460 watts for the individual time trials. 😲

Well crap, is 155-160lb considered decently big/heavy nowadays?

Yeah, it's bonkers. And the likely powers for the individual pursuit, whew.

Sometimes a TT workout for me is to just go bash around town sniffing out KOM's. Most stuff in town here is 3min or less. So, all out all ya got. Dig till ya finish, till ya stop, till ya puke.

I'll say, it's both exhilarating and terrifying to lay out over 400w on the TT bike even for that short of a period of time as 2 minutes. Especially downhill a touch.

One or two in town are 1min segments and less. For that super short period of time, tossing out 500, 600, 700w on a TT bike is just silly business. It hurts, but when you finish a little hit you're smiling ear to ear while you recover.

Didn't Wiggo crank about 440w average when he took hour record?

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

This 190 pound guy was thinking the same thing. They need to adjust the classification for Clydesdale eligibility.

Bigger than some, smaller than others ;-)

Not judging (LOL) just saying that I think I'm big/heavy enough to be able to manage an 808 on the front in the conditions I race in.

There is data to show that both brands are faster than obsolete box section aluminum wheelsets. But they aren't really THAT much faster. If the difference between them and non-aero wheels is so small, the difference between the two brands is very likely not measurable -- probably within the margin of error of whatever testing system is being used.

I would lean toward ENVE based on the reliability of the hubs (whichever option you choose) and the warranty. But I'm not sure anyone can prove that they're faster than the Zipps (or that they're not).

I'm always in the 152 to 158 range depending on hydration level and how many dumps I've taken that day. I have done training rides on disc/trispoke with decent wind and so long as the wind isn't like a light switch you can get your "gangsta lean" going on.

I'm not an aerodynmacist either, but the quote above about "similar tech at similar speeds and similar depths"......yeah, I can see it's not going to matter a super lot unless you do some funny business to improve stuff at stupid slow yaw angles (like, way into double digits). I really notice a lot of the Zipps and some companies depend heavily on that 15 deg+ area to make the line showing their wheel on the chart to "shine". Then, once you get single digits everything is so clustered you can't even tell which line is which.

That's all great, but the % time I'd spend at those angles is low if I do TT and not tri.

I don't think folks realize what the actual forward speed to side wind speed ratio would need to be to get to some of those big double digit yaw angles.

If you're going 40kph and the wind is 12 kph straight from the side (90°), then the apparent wind angle is around 17°.
Since most wheels look about the same at low yaw, then it is exactly those outlying apparent wind angles that will make the difference in your overall time.

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

I am not sure why you would consider wheels with a 19mm internal width. Josh Portner was talking about tire width for road probably settling around 28-30, which is going to look like a lollipop on a 19.

The HED Vanquish might deserve a look. Cannondale licensed the rim profile for the pier Knot wheels and their bike was the only disc road bike that was as fast as the rim bikes in the recent Tour test s.

As has been written, you're not going to find significant differences between any of the leading wheelsets. Most everyone spends the overwhelming majority of their time from 0-7 degrees of yaw, so that brings everything closer still.

HED's shape has shown to be least effected by tire choice (Cannondale is not the only company licensing that shape) so they're a safe bet if you can't test on your specific bike.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

I agree. I just like the science, that's all. It's fun. Most folks if they had to buy one thing instead of own a shed of wheels, sure something that does well at most things.

But, I can choose.

I'm also interested in the statistical distribution of those angles. That's why I'm still certain that if I've got good roads I can use the narrow HED trispoke I've got. Sure, wind gets over a certain set of yaw angles I'd change it out for my 6+ front.

For that scenario: numbers up for debate, haven't fixed my sheet yet....
Yaw less than 10deg: 50%
Yaw 10deg to 15deg: 32%
Yaw over 15deg: 18%

Change that to 42kph and 8kph wind, that changes to the entire list being under 10 degrees yaw. Which is pretty typical where I live. Down east it gets 10 to 15mph some days. But mostly it's days from 5 to 10mph.

I guess if you know, have a spreadsheet on the distribution, and have choices.......makes deciding easier.

Actually, thanks for making me think about this as now I have a handy spreadsheet I can input local wind speed and direction into to give me the yaw distributions for my rides! I know, BBS, but don't wanna pay and I'm a nerd.

Thanks Jim. One of the selling points of the P5 disc for me over my old P4 was the ability to run wider wheels/tires for comfort, so the Heds with their 21mm internal rim width (vs. 19mm internal width on the Zipp or Enve) makes a compelling case.

If I could afford a PRO 4-spoke front wheel I would use it just because it looks cool. Looking fast is half the battle. Of course those wheels are tubulars, so you'd have to deal with that as well...

Corima has a clincher version as well

Yeh if your average speed is 60kph!

I have both of these wheelsets and have them both set up with GP5000 tires and latex tubes and I'm using them on a P5D and PX Series bike. There's a noticeable weight difference between the two sets, I haven't tested them or anything but I generally ride faster with the 808/Super 9. For upcoming Ironman St. George I'll probably opt for the Enves just because of the hills more I would typically pick the Zipps every day over the Enve.

I also think the 808 NSW/Super 9 Special Edition with the NSW graphics looks great on both of my bikes! I don't think the Super 9 is tubeless compatible though.

Why do you say Zipp has better resale value than Enve? I only ask because I have a brand new set of Enve's that no one seems to want.

The math doesn't really jive with this statement.

At even 40kph and a 10kph wind, no yaw angle reaches 15 degress and only 27% are 12 degrees to 14.99 degrees. The magic on those charts are all around 10 to 17 degrees with the huge gains around 15 to 17 degrees. It's good magic worth paying attention to, but I think since the big gains are there that's where our eyes go.

You need wind speeds around 12 to 15mph at some serious side angles to really get lots of time accumulation at those angles.

I don't doubt the tech works, and it is a help. It'd be something I'd choose my 6+ versus an old HED 3c on for a course. I think people just need to more carefully do the math for themselves to make choices. I assumed I was way too slow for a trispoke to work, but the math says that if the wind isn't from the side and hard.....it pays out.

At least I have two wheel choices I can use.

Also, don't forget that when going downhill your yaw will straighten out a lot. And the yaw isn't as big a deal if you're out of the skis and going up a slow hill at like 8 mph.

If so, at 6' 185lbs, I must be morbidly obese. Who knew?

Not to mention that on the road, the wind is much more variable and turbulent than in a tunnel.

Most people will see over 10 deg. Only on those special days will it be close to 0

Ok, dummy question.

I figure the trispoke suffers in the yaw department due to the large profile from the side presented by the 3 spokes. Sure.

But what about all those flat bladed spokes that at yaw the wind would be hitting at bad ways? The animations are always of the tire/rim interface. But if you've got 18 front flat spokes suddenly at yaw, that couldn't bode well.

Also, it seems the trispoke at low yaw never has any spokes presenting themselves to zero yaw. Only the hub. So, spoked wheels do. The spokes aren't straight down from rim to hub. Hence why aero spokes matter so much.

If this matters enough that it's a known thing for using aero spokes, wouldn't they also present a solid impact at "yaw"? Not just the rim/tire interface?

Probably a lot to unwrap there.

All I know is my tri spoke looks ****ing cool.

And let's face it, that's all that matters. 😂😂😂

yeah I read this and was like oh no.

6'3 215 :D lol

That old set up you had.

Go with that.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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Lol, yes!

And, I can imagine the sound of that thing as you pass someone must be something else. Ulrich sure heard it here at around 6:00 in.

Here is “the one whose name shall not be said” in a TT on an HED 3c. I own one, it sounds like that.

Fast forward to 4:00, then close your eyes and listen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sOQflZqzn_U

OMG - some of you guys need a hug. ;-)

Of there is a lot of stuff here. Some of the best comparison data comes from Aerocoach. They have track tests with the HED 6+ and the H3+. I have both (and a 9 and 5.... too many wheels) and when I measure them with the calipers the rim profiles are identical. So the only difference is the hub and the spokes. In the Aerocoach testing the 3+ Has about 1/2 watt less drag.

Your intuition is generally correct, but some of the gains of the TriSpoke are also lost. Specifically, the TriSpoke creates high pressure pulses as the wide spoke passes between the fork legs. Aerocoach tested with a P5, which has a narrow fork that exacerbates the high pressure pulse. Wide fork bikes like the Speed Concept tend to work better with a TriSpoke and if I remember Josh Portner's comment correctly, the wide fork is around a watt to 1.5 watt improvement at 30 mph.

So ya the performance of a TriSpoke is dependent on a lot of things and you really need to have a good combination of frame and wheel.

All this being said, Aerocoach has windtunnel data for the Shimano TriSpoke. I don't remeber all the details, but I seem to remember thinking that it would be THE WHEEL for a slower rider at Kona. It didn't stall nearly as quickly as the deeper wheel they had for comparison.

For grins, I compiled the following:



If I assume that, generally speaking, I want the following:
- Deepest front wheel
- lightest disk
- widest internal and external rim width (to best blend with a wider tire)
- tubeless compatible

...then the Hed Vanquish seems like a pretty compelling set of wheels. Thoughts?

Just a statement by feel on this. By and large Zipp still doesn't do a whole lot of discounting and are easily thought of as the premier wheel brand. Enve wheels seem to be had at some serious discounts via the various teams these days. Upwards of 50% off sometimes. This puts pressure on the resale value as many people bought the wheels for a serious discount and are either making money or losing less off by selling at a steep discount to MSRP. I had a set of 7 8s a few years back when they were pretty new with the Carbon hubs with ceramic bearings. Rear was brand new, I only used the 7 for a few races and I was shocked how long it to took to sell and the price.

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Looks like a no-brainer to me!

I had heard this. I thought I also heard though something about a rotating trispoke almost generating propulsion or some witchcraft in some scenarios?

Your old quote yourself actually!


I guess lucky for me, I run mine on a Felt DA with the Bayonet fork. Which appears wide to me.

What are the measurement errors? 1/2 Watt is nothing.

6’ 200 lbs full size pack but must be super morbidly obese here lol

Who else licenses their shape?

Funny thing, in the very conditions where a deeper wheel like the Jet 9+ really shines, folks complain about handling and switch to shallower wheels. SMH

That should probably be called the "deep wheel conundrum". I do think you still save a watt or two in calm conditions because the shorter spokes create less rotational drag.

Somewhat ironic considering their history with small industry businesses, but Specialized is another company licensing HED’s aero shape.

Hahahaha "Big/heavy".....6' 155#.... You're waif-ish!!

I like my Flo disc/90 for half the price. As someone said, the diff in aero is nominal.

Zipp is a more known brand and you see them everywhere. Enve is ridiculously overpriced.

Perhaps it’s regional. Living in northern Michigan, I weigh in at 165 -168 lbs, 5’ 10”, and people think I’m skinny. I suppose I’ll just keep living up north.

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Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

Not my idea, someone mentioned discounts as a big factor.

My fastest are a pair of carbon 29ers, with 2.35 racing Ralph’s :)

Surprisingly they are faster than the narrow ones I used to swear by

808 FC seem to be slightly more than 7.8, at least for disc. NSW’s go up in price from there. Are you saying Enve is overpriced due to poor quality, or in comparison to Zipp, because it seems the opposite to me?

So does the newer CLX 64 tubeless (not the newest tube only model) license off on of the Hed rim designs? If so, which one? None are 64mm deep, are they?

--Brian

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"We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." --Chief Seattle